Payloads

[Wasnt Me]

I know what you mean.

 

The issue is, that it's not totally clear what actual licence you need.

 

 

Some are saying it's what the VC5 says and some are saying it's the chassis plate.

 

 

[Wasnt Me]

That's a good point aandy.

 

I will see what our local weigh bridge reads.

 

 

[derek pringle]

Wasn't Me - 2018-07-13 11:52 AM

 

Thanks for the responses.

 

I did think it was a push.

 

Currently the kids are 10 and 8, so not a huge issue. But as you say they will grow.

 

 

I am intending to get to a weighbridge as I weighed it for a while etc.

 

With regard to axle weights, how do you distribute the weight better? It's quite limiting what you can put in the front. Our current van has twin wheels, so I presume it can take a lot over them.

 

It's a shame it's so expensive to gain a C1.

 

Thanks in advance

Hi,

Is it essential that your wife drives the m/h?

derek

[Wasnt Me]

Yes for this trip as I've got a broken collarbone. *-)

[Derek Uzzell]

Wasn't Me - 2018-07-14 9:30 AM

 

...Some are saying it's what the VC5 says and some are saying it's the chassis plate.

 

 

It’s your motorhome’s 3850kg MAM data-plate that identifies that the vehicle’s driver needs to have a C1 driving-licence requirement - there’s absolutely no doubt that this is so and mistakes on the vehicle’s V5C won’t change that, nor if the Chausson is registered in an inappropriate UK road-tax class.

 

If you are unwise enough to remove the Chausson data-plate to disguise the motorhome’s 3850kg MAM, hopefully you will explain to your wife what you are doing and the possible implications for her if she drives the motorhome without having the C1 entitlement.

 

(Is your wife happy to drive a vehicle this large, never mind doing it illegally?)

[plwsm2000]

Just out of curiosity, if someone was to legally downplate from 3850kg to 3500kg (for license reasons), what would you do with the VIN plate showing 3850kg?

 

 

[Keithl]

plwsm2000 - 2018-07-14 1:36 PM

 

Just out of curiosity, if someone was to legally downplate from 3850kg to 3500kg (for license reasons), what would you do with the VIN plate showing 3850kg?

 

 

You would attach the new plate alongside clearly identifying the ‘new’ weight as 3,500 kg. You must leave the original in place to show a change has been made.

 

Keith

[flicka]

It appears that you are short of time to get things sorted.

One option for the future would be to remove the tow bar. They can be heavy, but if it's not used why lose unnecessay payload ?

Then getting the weighbridge figures will show if 3500kg is achievable.

If it is there are companies who can do all the necessary paperwork & issue a legal new plate (£200 ish) but some of that could be recouped by sale of the towbar.

[Billggski]

Ifyou are downplating just send your altered V5 back to Swansea with a weighbridge certificate. Then make your own Vin plate.

http://www.vin-plate.co.uk/other_marques.html

[Derek Uzzell]

This 2017 forum discussion may be of interest

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Multiple-weight-plates-and-a-little-confusion/46425/

 

Wasn’t Me’s (WM) wife’s driving-licence entitlement does not allow her to drive a vehicle that has a MAM exceeding 3500kg and the motorhome’s Chausson data-plate shows a MAM of 3850kg. Despite the 3850kg MAM figure, the motorhome is apparently UK-registered in the Private/Light Goods Vehicles road-tax class that applies to vehicles with a MAM not exceeding 3500kg.

 

As far as the DVLA is concerned WM’s motorhome’s MAM does not exceed 3500kg (It’s V5C evidently has 3500kg on it) and it’s registered in the road-tax class that applies to vehicles with a MAM not exceeding 3500kg.

 

This leaves two issues - whether the motorhome can be slimmed down to a 3500kg overall-weight when loaded in ‘holiday trim’, and the Chausson 3850kg data-plate that prevents WM’s wife from driving it on her ‘car’ licence.

 

Before WM’s Chausson is sold, the 3850kg/3500kg/DVLA records mismatch will need to be resolved. The question is what’s best to do if WM’s wife is going to drive the motorhome in the near future. If the motorhome can be operated at 3500kg it’s the 3850kg plate that could present problems, so WM’s suggestion of (temporarily?) removing the 3850kg plate makes some sense. Creating a DIY 3rd plate/sticker (as Billggski mentions) that repeats the details on the Chausson plate but shows a 3500kg MAM rather than 3850kg might be another option.

 

It’s up to WM what he does, but it might be sensible (if he’s happy to agree to this) to delete this thread from the forum to minimise the chance of legal repercussions.

[Wasnt Me]

Thanks again for the input.

 

Interesting idea about the tow bar.

 

Derek you have summed it up.

 

Delete the thread? Did not know you could do that. If anyone asks it Wasn't Me

 

(lol)

[plwsm2000]

Keithl - 2018-07-14 3:20 PM

 

plwsm2000 - 2018-07-14 1:36 PM

 

Just out of curiosity, if someone was to legally downplate from 3850kg to 3500kg (for license reasons), what would you do with the VIN plate showing 3850kg?

 

 

You would attach the new plate alongside clearly identifying the ‘new’ weight as 3,500 kg. You must leave the original in place to show a change has been made.

 

Keith

 

But how do you know which is the latest plate? (keeping in mind that the van could have been uprated and then downrated by a different owner).

 

There may not be enough space next to the "old" plate and the most recent one could be mounted elsewhere on the vehicle, so you cannot re!y on its location.

My VIN plates do not have dates on them either.

 

Is there an official description of what information MUST be on the VIN plate? (all I could find is that it must contain the VIN number!). Is the date mandatory?

 

[Brock]

If the OP and his wife are intent on staying within the law, she could email the DVSA and ask for advice. The response I received was from: technical.officers@vosa.gov.uk. It would be wrong to ask their advice and then not follow it. It would not necessarily solve the French problem.

 

My concern is that we are posting on an issue affecting a third party [the wife] which may have serious consequences for her. I agree with Derek that the OP should consider having the thread deleted although presumably there will still be some form of audit trail.

 

My son's recent experiences of the DVSA [commercial van] is that the Inspectors enter the VIN into their tablet and that provides the information. The plate is viewed to see if the driver knows where it is, knows what weights s/he should be respecting, and as a check.

[Derek Uzzell]

Except for the official Chausson data-plate WM’s motorhome could be considered to have a MAM of 3500kg - the DVLA thinks it has!

 

There are plenty of on-line images of vehicle data-plates with varying design and these could be used as templates. One mentions a MAM value for a motorhome having been altered and just states the revised weight.

 

As removing the Chausson plate or DIYing a faked-up 3rd plate are hardly things that would be considered recommended practice, there’s little point in discussing the fine detail. WM really should not be doing either without getting reliable advice about the implications. If he chooses to use his own initiative that’s his business.

 

(I and other forum moderators can delete forum threads and postings. Realistically, there won’t be an easily-followed audit trail to recover deleted entries.)

[Wasnt Me]

Thanks for all the advice.

 

Do the DVLA, VOSA or the police have time to look at forums, to help decide if someone is guilty?

 

I definitely want to stay within the law and my wife is fully aware of all of the circumstances.

 

Off to the weighbridge tomorrow and that will help us make a choice.

 

On the upside the way my recovery is going, I should be ok to drive anyway.

 

 

[Billggski]

There seems to be some confusion between a vin number and a vin plate.

The vin number is the unique identification on the V5 and is stamped onto the chassis and on newer vehicles is visible in the nearside corner of the windscreen. That is what identifies your class and excise duty category.

The vin plate includes this number plus extra information about axle loads and, recently, your emissions category. As far as I can ascertain this is for information only, and if you are stopped by the DVSA or police they will already know the weight limit before they get out of their vehicle, which will be the one on your V5.

[Derek Uzzell]

This is the position as I understand it...

 

Wasn’t Me (WM) owns a 2007 Chausson Flash 09 motorhome.

 

A Chausson 2007 UK advertising brochure is available on-line (GOOGLE on “pdf 2007 Chausson motorhomes”) and the weight-related data (Standard base vehicle without ooptions) for a Flash 09 are quoted as

 

Vehicle bodycoach weight in running order (+/- 5%) - 3131kg

Max technically permissible laden mass - 3850kg

 

(The 2008 brochure is also on-line and, in that document, a Flash 09’s weight in running order is quoted as 3231kg. The model’s maximum technically permissible laden mass (MTPLM) continues to be stated as 3850kg)

 

My 2005 Hobby motorhome had European Community Whole Vehicle Type Approval (ECWVTA) and there’s a good chance that a 2007-built Chausson would also have ECWVTA. This procedure demands that a vehicle manufacturer confirms that each vehicle produced meets all relevant technical regulations in force at the time. For a coachbuilt motorhome using a standard (non-AL-KO) chassis this means that the motorhome will have two ‘data-plates’ (I’ve deliberately not used “VIN-plate” to minimise confusion).

 

The 'first-stage’ data-plate will relate to the base vehicle - a Flash 09 is built on a Ford Transit, so Ford would attach the first-stage plate. The ‘second-stage’ data-plate will relate to the conversion and, for a Flash 09, Chausson would attach the second-stage plate. A motorhome with ECWVTA should also have Certificates of Conformity (CofCs) providing data (like weights) for each of the stages. A data-plate may be metal (and riveted in place) or a ‘sticker’. I can’t find an image of a Chausson data-plate, but the attached photo of a Dethleffs second-stage ‘sticker plate’ is typical.

 

When a motorhome with ECWVTA is first UK-registered the information on the ‘final stage’ CofC document should be used to decide which UK road-tax class the vehicle should be assigned to. As WM’s Chausson-provided data-plate indicates a MTPLM of 3850kg on it, the vehicle should be registered in the Private HGV class and, consequently, it cannot be legally driven on a basic “B” driving-licence entitlement. Even if WM’s 2007 Flash 09 did not have ECWVTA, the 3850kg MTPLM on the Chausson plate still means that someone with just a “B” entitlement cannot legally drive it,

 

My Rapido motorhome has ECWVTA and its UK registration certificate (V5C) has “3500 KG GROSS” in the Field (Y) Revenue weight section. This matches the 3500kg MTPLM figure on the second-stage Rapido data-plate and the V5C shows that the motorhome is registered in the Private/Light Goods (PLG) taxation class. So eveything matches correctly and only a “B” driving-licence entitlement is needed to legally drive it.

 

But WM’s motorhome, although its V5C has 3500kg on it and the vehicle is apparently registered in the Private/Light Goods (PLG) taxation class, has a Chausson data-plate with a MTPLM 3850kg figure on it. As the Chausson data-plate takes precedence over the V5C, a “B” driving-licence entitlement is not sufficient to legally drive WM’s motorhome.

 

There’s little profit in speculatiing on how this mismatch may have occurred, but the likelihood is that WM’s Flash 09 was placed incorrectly placed in the PLG tax-class when it was first UK-registered. As things stand - with no supplementary data-plate showing a 3500kg MTPLM to override the Chausson 3850kg figure - a “B” licence holder is not entitled to drive the vehicle, and whether or not it can be operated with a sub-3500kg overall weight does not change that.

 

Wasn't Me - 2018-07-15 9:39 PM

 

...Do the DVLA, VOSA or the police have time to look at forums, to help decide if someone is guilty?

 

I definitely want to stay within the law and my wife is fully aware of all of the circumstances...

 

 

What you are really asking is, if your wife drives the motorhome, what are the chances that her not being entitled to drive a vehicle with a 3850kg MTPLM will present a problem. There’s no firm answer to that, but as long as the Chausson 3850kg plate is there, there’s the potential for someone to notice that her driving-licence “B” entitlement is insufficient to legally drive the motorhome.

 

At present you can’t “stay within the law” over this, so it would definitely best for her to not drive the motorhome. You can then decide whether you want to operate the vehicle at 3500kg MTPLM (and add a sticker to indicate the lower weight limit) or at 3850kg when you’ll need to advise the DVLA that the motorhome is currently in the wrong UK tax-class.

[goldi]

Good morning,

 

 

Has anyone been stopped or has any heard of anyone being stopped in UK and find ?

 

Thereis a general tolerance of 5% for freight to account for inaccuracies in equipment and windloading in UK but I do not know if this applies in France.

[Derek Uzzell]

In France, if a motorhome were roadside-checked and found to weigh above its MTPLM, there is NO official stated tolerance for the ‘overload’ amount. If the vehicle’s weight exceeds its MTPLM it’s considered to be overloaded and that’s that.

 

For WM it’s the apparent conflict between his wife’s driving-licence “B” entitlement and the 3850kg MTPLM figure on the motorhome’s Chausson data-plate that’s the main problem. If roadside-checked and weighed in the UK or France, I’ve no idea if the 3500kg weight on WM’s motorhome’s V5C would be used to decide if the vehicle is overloaded, or the 3850kg on the Chausson data-plate.

 

As WM’s motorhome (apparently) is considered by the DVLA as having a MTPLM of 3500kg and (presumably) is registered in the Private/Light Goods Vehicle road-tax class, I’d try asking SVTech what they do about providing some sort a data-plate/sticker to confirm the reduced MTPLM when they 'downplate’ a motorhome.

 

http://www.svtech.co.uk/our-services/downplating/

 

I’m not sure how one could downplate WM’s Chausson to 3500kg as the DVLA already ‘thinks’ its MTPLM is 3500kg, but (if it’s going to be operated at 3500kg MTPLM) it really needs a plate/sticker to show that weight and override the 3850kg value.

[tazdog6007]

Just have a nice trip,drive carefully,and the odds of being pulled in normal circumstances are pretty remote.and be aware of speed limits,when approaching small villages after a long run on national roads.plus (laws are for the guidance of wise men and the slavery of fools) :-D

[aandy]

tazdog6007 - 2018-07-16 4:42 PM

 

Just have a nice trip,drive carefully,and the odds of being pulled in normal circumstances are pretty remote.and be aware of speed limits,when approaching small villages after a long run on national roads.plus (laws are for the guidance of wise men and the slavery of fools) :-D

 

The chances of being pulled are, indeed, slim, and if WM is pulled he might get away with directing the gendarmerie (or whoever) to whichever of the two plates suits his purpose (the Ford one if Mrs WM is driving and the Chausson one if he is driving and weight might be an issue). Of greater concern to me, however, would be the consequences should the vehicle be involved in an accident while being driven on a B licence. Depending on the severity, it would likely be subjected to much greater scrutiny and the irregularity might well come to light with potentially dire consequences.

 

However, a question that occurs to me is what would the authorities use to determine the permissible weight? Heavy commercial vehicles have two plates, one fitted by the manufacturer showing the design weights and a second "ministry plate" issued by VOSA showing the legally permitted weights, which are invariably lower. I stress that this is only speculation, but might the V5 carry more legal authority than a manufacturer's plate, such that the weight shown on it overrides that shown on Chausson's plate in the same way that a ministry plate overrides the manufacturers?

 

[Keithl]

WM,

 

A question nobody has asked yet, could your MH have been legally downplated by a previous owner?

 

Have you checked through all the paperwork you possibly got with it for any clues or checked the MH for any signs of a third plate?

 

And finally a possible short term solution, use a label maker to print a new weight sticker to stick over the 3,850 kg weight saying something like “Downrated to 3,500 kg”. Who can then argue as it would match your V5.

 

Keith

[Wasnt Me]

Hi thanks for your responses.

 

I'm pretty sure that it wasn't downplated, as the previous owner had a scooter and a fairly large family. I do not know for sure.

 

My feeling is that if the VC5 says 3500kg, then that is what the Police/VOSA will go with. Providing it is not over 3500kg. Obviously if my wife was driving it overweight (the motorhome) then it would be an issue.

 

Thanks in advance

[Billggski]

It would be an issue if you drive it overweight as well.

It's the registered weight that counts, not your licence.

[Derek Uzzell]

Wasn't Me - 2018-07-16 10:31 PM

 

...My feeling is that if the VC5 says 3500kg, then that is what the Police/VOSA will go with...

 

In France it would be the weight-related data on a French-registered motorhome's registration document (the equivalent to the UK’s V5C) that would be used if a motorhome were weighed as a result of a roadside check, and I’d expect this to be similarly true for the UK.

 

I suspect that, In France or the UK, your V5C 3500kg weight would ‘count’ and I doubt that it would be noticed that your motorhome carries a Chausson data-plate with a 3850kg figure on it (and it would certainly not be noticed if the plate has been removed!).