Is it me or are Ford chassis everywhere?

[coaltong]

I've been doing some window shopping for new motorhomes over recent weeks. It's been a few years since I did this last and there seem to be so many more Ford-based vans in the showrooms.

 

I thought Fiat owned this domain?

 

Am I imagining things? If manufacturers are switching to Ford, why is this? I've only ever driven Fiat models.

 

 

[fesspark]

I think thats their problem,When did ford ever build a good diesel?

[Derek Uzzell]

coaltong - 2018-07-29 8:55 AM

 

...Am I imagining things?...

 

 

Yes

 

To the best of my knowledge the only motorhome manufacturers currently building ‘coachbuilt’ models on a Transit chassis are a few Continental-European members of the Trigano Group - Benimar, Challenger/Chausson, CI and Roller Team. Those manufacturers also build on Ducato chassis with the Ducato designs often mirroring the Transit models but tending to be more expensive.

 

There are some Transit-based panel-van conversions made in the UK and Continental Europe, but the overall number produced will be very small.

[Brock]

I wish motorhome manufacturers had your imagination, coaltong!

 

Figures are often out of date and open to misinterpretation. Based on my interpretation of the Practical Motorhome pie chart reflecting those who responded to its annual survey in early 2018, c62% have Fiat motorhomes, 25% have Peugeots, then comes VW with c8% and Ford with slightly less - and a slight reduction on its 2017 figure.

 

My perception is that the Trigano group has used the Ford for its 'budget' models which seem to be popular in the UK whilst retaining Fiat for its premium offerings. One of the Trigano group companies admitted this in an interview with MMM some time ago - think it was Chausson but don't quote me on that.

[Derek Uzzell]

In France, for the 2009 model-year, Benimar, Challenger/Chausson, CI and Roller Team were marketing Ford Transit-based ‘coachbuilt’ motorhomes, but so were Blue Camp, Burstner, Carado, Dethleffs, Eriba, Eura Mobil, Fendt, Hobby, Hymer, Laika, LMC, Sunlight, TEC and Westfalia.

 

A primary reason for the Ducato becoming dominant in the coachbuilt motorhome market is that the Ducato base is so versatile. The converter can design any type of body (overcab, profile, or A-class) and a Ducato chassis can be provided to suit. If the converter wants an Al-Ko chassis, or a double-floor, or tandem rear axles, a Ducato chassis can meet those requirements. If a prospective motorhome buyer would like automatic transmission, it’s been available on Ducato for over 10 years. But Transit has no Al-Ko chassis option and an auto-box is a very recent introduction.

 

To further discourage those many converters who were buiding on Transit in 2009, although it was well known that Ford would be replacing the Transit Mk 7, introduction of the new Transit model was repeatedly delayed and the Mk 8 did not appear until 2014. By then, except for the four Trigano converters currently buiding Transit-based coachbuilt models, the other converters who had used a Transit base had chosen to concentrate solely on Boxer, Ducato or Jumper/Relay platforms.

 

Presumably Ford offers Transit chassis to Benimar, Challenger/Chausson, CI and Roller Team at a very attractive price and this saving can be passed on to buyers.

[Marcol]

fesspark - 2018-07-29 9:15 AM

 

I think thats their problem,When did ford ever build a good diesel?

 

You obviously haven’t driven the new 170hp Transit auto

 

[mgnbuk]

"You obviously haven’t driven the new 170hp Transit auto "

 

No, though I did drive 5300 miles last year in a new 170hp manual & it was poor.

 

Trigano seem to be using them for a couple of reasons - firstly, they are cheap compared to a Fiat - on the Chausson I bought last year the "fully loaded" 170hp Transit with 16" alloy wheels & metallic paint cab was nearly £1000 less than a "base model" 130hp Fiat with 15" steel wheels & white cab. As the Fiat 150hp upgrade was another £1500, 16" alloys £500 & metallic paint £500 the Ford looks better value on the forecourt. Secondly, there also appears to be a supply issue with Fiat - it would appear that Fiat are running at capacity & cannot produce more to meet increased demand. As Citroen & Peugeot seem to be available, this suggests to me that Fiat is limited by engine supply - hence some Burstner models coming out this year on Citroen chassis, as I was told they couldn't get enough Fiats. So the Ford chassis has taken up some of the increased demand for new vans in the the last couple of years - particularly at the "entry level" end of the market.

 

As all the local dealers had only forward ordered the model we were interested in on the Ford, and Chausson had closed their order book for 2018 by November 2017 when were looking, there was no possibility of us ordering one on the Fiat - basically buy the Ford or do without. With the benefit of hindsight, doing without would probably have been better !

 

Nigel B

[Derek Uzzell]

With so few motorhome manufacturers building on a Ford base, I doubt if the latest version of the Transit will have any noticeable effect on the market-dominance of the Fiat Ducato, even though the Transit’s ‘proper’ auto-box may be superior to the Ducato’s robotised-manual transmission.

 

I suspect, too, that motorhome buyers may be wary of the 2.0litre capacity of the latest powerplants fitted to all Transits and Boxers/Relays. Even though Fiat dropped the 3.0litre motor, the 2.3litre capacity unit was maintained and (in technically modified 180 form) should be able to cope adequately with even tandem rear-axle ‘biggies’. When a replacement Ducato is released (in 2020?) it will be interesting to see what capacity motors it will have.

 

I’m not sure about the idea that shortage of motors has produced a move from a Fiat base to a Citroen/Peugeot one. Globecar/Possl had, for several years, offered a Citroen base as an alternative to Fiat, and the Adria/Elios brands offered a Citroen base for the 2017 model-year for some models. For the 2018 model-year (ie. from late-2017) Carado, Sunlight and Detlheffs did the same.

 

It’s more likely that - like building on a Ford rather than a Fiat - the motorhome converter can obtain a Citroen/Peugeot chassis cheaper than a Ducato chassis. This was the case with Globecar/Possl, where the Citroen Jumper version was always around €1000 euros less expensive than its Fiat Ducato twin.

[fesspark]

Thanks for confirming what I think about Ford diesels Fesspark

[Derek Uzzell]

Your previous posting was very oddly worded, but I can’t see anything in the follow-up comments from other forum members that either addresses your question directly or confirms its inference.

[Bulletguy]

fesspark - 2018-07-29 9:15 AM

 

I think thats their problem,When did ford ever build a good diesel?

Ford were one of just four manufacturers of diesel vehicles which saw an increase in sales.

 

http://europe.autonews.com/article/20180308/ANE/180309559/ford-seat-audi-and-bmw-gain-sales-in-uk-market-down-3

 

As for vans, over 8 million Transits sold since 1965 and still selling so it looks like Ford must be doing something right. ;-)

[fesspark]

I had a fleet of Transits in the late 60.s and throughout the seventies and every one was a Petrol engine, In the last 15 years I have had, Fiat, Citroen and Puegeot motors cars and Vans and never a problem, as I was led to believe the Fords Were, Fesspark

[Deneb]

Bulletguy - 2018-07-30 4:23 PM

As for vans, over 8 million Transits sold since 1965 and still selling so it looks like Ford must be doing something right. ;-)

 

There was a time when almost half of the production was reckoned to be replacing stolen and unrecovered vans. Whilst nowhere near that situation today, some of the sales must also be for similar reasons!

[Marcol]

fesspark - 2018-07-31 8:53 AM

 

I had a fleet of Transits in the late 60.s and throughout the seventies and every one was a Petrol engine, In the last 15 years I have had, Fiat, Citroen and Puegeot motors cars and Vans and never a problem, as I was led to believe the Fords Were, Fesspark

 

You must be very lucky that in 15 years you’ve never had a problem with any electrical issues with the Sevel built vans. But we speak as we find as the saying goes

[fesspark]

Sorry I missed out that the Citroens, Puegeots and Fiats were and still are Deisel engines,Not sure about the electrics,not my dept; Fesspark

[Derek Uzzell]

If you look at this Wikipedia entry for Ford’s “Duratorq” range of diesel powerplants

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Duratorq_engine

 

you’ll see that these motors were used in a wide vareiety of makes/models and that derivatives of the “TDCi 16v” motor were fitted to the Fiat Ducato, Peugeot Boxer and Citroen Jumper/Relay, as well as to the Ford Transit. In fact, every 2.2litre diesel motor fitted to X250/X290 Boxer or Relay-based motorhomes would have been manufactured by Ford.

 

OK, there have been well-reported problems with some of the Ford-built motors, but there have also been problems with the Fiat/Iveco motors fitted to Ducato, and some of the latest Euro 6 2.3litre Ducato engines appear to have a startling thirst for oil.

 

I don’t know how you gained the belief that Ford were never able to “build a good diesel”, but I suggest you rethink.

[mgnbuk]

"some of the latest Euro 6 2.3litre Ducato engines appear to have a startling thirst for oil. "

 

As does the 2 litre Euro 6 Ford. The last recall I had done on mine before it went was to fit a shorter dipstick to increase sump capacity (by a litre IIRC). I understand that this change was prompted by high oil consumption experienced by some.

 

Both my Ford & its 2.3 150hp Fiat replacment used oil at about the same rate (around a litre in 1000 miles) intially, but both used no more oil after their first long run abroad. Both were take into Austria / Northern Italy towing a 650kg motorcycle trailer, so were worked fairly hard on long runs up quite steep inclines - maybe that helped to properly "bed in" the engines ?

 

Nigel B

[Bulletguy]

fesspark - 2018-07-31 8:53 AM

 

I had a fleet of Transits in the late 60.s and throughout the seventies and every one was a Petrol engine, In the last 15 years I have had, Fiat, Citroen and Puegeot motors cars and Vans and never a problem, as I was led to believe the Fords Were, Fesspark

If by 'fleet' you mean company owned/run, i find the choice of Transit petrol engine to be a strange one. A quick search on Auto Trader shows 3,116 Transit vans for sale of which just one is petrol....the rest are diesel.

 

Admittedly the early Transit diesel engines through to Mk5 could best be described as 'agricultural', but......literally bullet proof which invariably outlasted the van. Depending on the fuel pump fitted they'd easily run on old chip fryer oil. You can't do that with any current spec diesel.

 

By the time the Mk5 was introduced, Ford also introduced crazy computerised electronics into the engine making cheap 'roadside repairs' or 'quick fixes' a thing of the past.....ie, what do you do when the silly electronic 'fly by wire' throttle goes belly up in the middle of nowhere? With the 'old style' mechanical throttle and pump a piece of string will get you home or to the nearest garage.

 

If looking for 'finesse' in diesel engines then personally i'd say three types are way out in the lead. Audi, BMW and Mercedes....with only the latter being used in a few UK mh's. The longevity of their engines is also well known. My sons Audi now has around 180k on the clock and the performance is amazing.

[Keithl]

Bulletguy - 2018-08-01 11:10 AM

 

fesspark - 2018-07-31 8:53 AM

 

I had a fleet of Transits in the late 60.s and throughout the seventies and every one was a Petrol engine, In the last 15 years I have had, Fiat, Citroen and Puegeot motors cars and Vans and never a problem, as I was led to believe the Fords Were, Fesspark

 

If by 'fleet' you mean company owned/run, i find the choice of Transit petrol engine to be a strange one. A quick search on Auto Trader shows 3,116 Transit vans for sale of which just one is petrol....the rest are diesel.

 

BG,

 

I thought the same until I re-read his post and noticed "...in the late 60's"

 

In those days most commercials where still petrol's to the best of my knowledge.

 

Keith.

 

In fact in the mid 70's I remember replacing the cylinder head gaskets on the schools minibus during lunch time breaks, a V4 petrol Transit!

[Brock]

There must be a difference between which base vehicle is suitable for a motorhome and which one is best suited for commercial use. Fiat have been actively involved in the motorhome market for many years, Ford has a habit of coming and going. I've had one Talbot and am on my 5th Fiat. Fiat problems have been almost non existent in my vans. I'd have another.

 

My son is currently getting quotes to renew his commercial van lease in 2019 on a full maintenance and repair contract for 120,000 miles. He calculates the productivity of each van against cost; I don't think a motorhomer does that calculation although a whole life cost calculation might be worthwhile.

 

The Transit is at the bottom of my son's list despite being the cheapest to lease. It just does not cope well with the challenge of high speed motorway driving over such distances. Next to the bottom is the Peugeot, next comes the Ducato [local Fiat Professional/Iveco garage], then the Renault Master, then for the third year running the Auto Sprinter. Top for the third year, despite being the most expensive, is the Auto Iveco Daily - productivity is c£280pm better than the Master and c£330pm better than the Transit. The new VW Crafter was disqualified as it grounded on test.

 

This does not mean the Iveco is a better van than the Transit. It just means it is better suited to my son's task.

[Bulletguy]

Keithl - 2018-08-01 11:17 AM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-08-01 11:10 AM

 

fesspark - 2018-07-31 8:53 AM

 

I had a fleet of Transits in the late 60.s and throughout the seventies and every one was a Petrol engine, In the last 15 years I have had, Fiat, Citroen and Puegeot motors cars and Vans and never a problem, as I was led to believe the Fords Were, Fesspark

 

If by 'fleet' you mean company owned/run, i find the choice of Transit petrol engine to be a strange one. A quick search on Auto Trader shows 3,116 Transit vans for sale of which just one is petrol....the rest are diesel.

 

BG,

 

I thought the same until I re-read his post and noticed "...in the late 60's"

 

In those days most commercials where still petrol's to the best of my knowledge.

 

Keith.

 

In fact in the mid 70's I remember replacing the cylinder head gaskets on the schools minibus during lunch time breaks, a V4 petrol Transit!

Yes i noted that and cannot find any info on what sort of build ratios were back then (diesel vs petrol) but a fairly comprehensive write up on wiki about first generation ones and interesting to note the availability of different diesel engines through later series; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Transit#First_generation_(1965%E2%80%931986)

 

From a commercial aspect there are undoubtedly better vans available today.....but the Transit was there long before any of them, is still being built, and Fiat, Peugeot etc had a well established 'blueprint' to follow from.

 

My neighbour whose daily work commute is approx 60 miles has owned a Fiesta diesel for the past 6 or 7 years and well pleased with it.

[Bulletguy]

Brock - 2018-08-01 12:27 PM

 

There must be a difference between which base vehicle is suitable for a motorhome and which one is best suited for commercial use. Fiat have been actively involved in the motorhome market for many years, Ford has a habit of coming and going.

I don't know about any other mh/pvc manufacturer but the reason Auto Sleeper stopped using Ford was due to cost. The Fiat chassis is cheaper.

 

 

The Transit is at the bottom of my son's list despite being the cheapest to lease. It just does not cope well with the challenge of high speed motorway driving over such distances.

Blimey.......how fast and where does he drive?? 8-)

 

Any motorways south of Manchester and you will be lucky to manage bursts of 50mph! The south sections are littered with average speed cams, most of which are 50 but some are down to 40.

[fesspark]

Maybe he drives abroad where motorway speed limits are a lot higher?

[Bulletguy]

fesspark - 2018-08-01 1:06 PM

 

Maybe he drives abroad where motorway speed limits are a lot higher?

Plus less av/speed cams too! German autobahns take some beating for fast A to B driving with restricted sections set at 81mph. Fully loaded (fuel and water) my van will do that no problem but i generally motor around 60-65mph on them.

[grahamt63]

mgnbuk - 2018-08-01 10:17 AM

 

Both my Ford & its 2.3 150hp Fiat replacment used oil at about the same rate (around a litre in 1000 miles) intially, but both used no more oil after their first long run abroad. Both were take into Austria / Northern Italy towing a 650kg motorcycle trailer, so were worked fairly hard on long runs up quite steep inclines - maybe that helped to properly "bed in" the engines ?

 

Nigel B

 

Interesting you saying this...........I was quite apprehensive about my new Euro 6 150 Ducato (May 18) and the reports of excessive oil use, in the first 500 ish miles it used 0.3 litre which got me worried. We set off from home with about 400miles on with the van fully laden and headed to the Lofoten islands Norway. The engine was working hard on the way up there, some long inclines on Europe motorways. At about 1500 miles we climbed the pass on the '55', 2nd gear full throttle and max 20mph and hair pin bends , (instant fuel consumption was down to 6 mpg), this driving pattern was repeated over the next few k miles. Just got home Saturday and now up to 5800miles and no oil use after the first 1 k miles........I'm clearly pleased and like you I can't help but think that these engines really do need some good load on them to help them bed in.

 

For those interested the trip total was 5400miles, average fuel use was 33 mpg, running at about 3.4tons most of the time, motorway cruising speed was 65mph on sat nav which is 2000rpm in 6th which means you can pull up most motorway inclines without dropping down a gear. I should add I pay little or no attention to the dash shift indicator!! DPF regens run every 450 ish miles, my previous Euro5 130 Ducato engine ran up to 1000miles between regens......looks like the EU6 engine produces a bit more soot but clearly less NOX.