Will86 Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 Are they really a serious issue ... or is it normal for the drying skin to show ageing just as it does with the human body, but with the remaining interior still very safe and usable ... as are we humans ? Its only a skinning to cover the mesh of corded material that keeps the pressure from escaping. Or is this another excuse for an increase in sales by frightening the user into thinking he'll be due for a crash? Has a crash investigation ever detailed cracked walls as the cause ? So much of modern life is to frighten the customer into buying that extra. Even the police themselves are prone to it. Around Christmas we often have notices posted in the street purporting that criminals are close by. They also added that they were seen in a black shiny Range Rover with bright alloy wheels. No criminal with any sense would be seen in such a vehicle. I will post a copy if it happens this year. I did write them a note last time accusing them of scaremongering but no answer arrived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 Will86 - 2018-08-26 12:07 PM Are they really a serious issue ... or is it normal for the drying skin to show ageing just as it does with the human body, but with the remaining interior still very safe and usable ... as are we humans ? . Drying, cracked skin is not TOO serious in humans because they don't travel down motorways at 70 mph carrying 2 or 3 tons. Bit more risky if a tyre is doing anything like that. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adhple Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 About time to replace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 "So much of modern life is to frighten the customer into buying that extra." You have the growth of behavioural science to thank for that. Used positively, behavioural science can improve people's lives, such as the Government achieving a significant reduction in smoking, or negatively such persuading us to buy product X when unnecessary. It's known that people do not welcome change unless they fear not changing. Hence frightening people is a quick way to get them to adopt your thoughts and actions. Some people can see when they are being manipulated by behavioural science, the majority do not. Ask an independent MOT station how they assess cracked tyres. Seeking and interpreting independent information is one way of avoiding being manipulated. If you want exercise your brain, look up the behavioural science of Nudging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blaven Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 Will86 - 2018-08-26 12:07 PM Are they really a serious issue ... or is it normal for the drying skin to show ageing just as it does with the human body, but with the remaining interior still very safe and usable ... as are we humans ? Its only a skinning to cover the mesh of corded material that keeps the pressure from escaping. Or is this another excuse for an increase in sales by frightening the user into thinking he'll be due for a crash? Has a crash investigation ever detailed cracked walls as the cause ? So much of modern life is to frighten the customer into buying that extra. Even the police themselves are prone to it. Around Christmas we often have notices posted in the street purporting that criminals are close by. They also added that they were seen in a black shiny Range Rover with bright alloy wheels. No criminal with any sense would be seen in such a vehicle. I will post a copy if it happens this year. I did write them a note last time accusing them of scaremongering but no answer arrived. I cannot believe that you are in all seriousness, asking this question. Apart from anything else, you’d fail your MOT, and invalidate your insurance running an unroadworthy vehicle. Please do us all a favour and replace them. It might be you hurtling towards me totally out of control with a preventable tyre failure and killing or crippling me and my family. (Edit) Sorry, Jumped into this post with both feet. I have assumed that you, indeed, have cracked sidewalls. You may be asking an hypothetical question. If you are, I apologise. However, my answer to your question has not changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted August 26, 2018 Author Share Posted August 26, 2018 Interesting replies as usual. I'm always posing the difficult ones which balance my views on life and motoring. Believe nothing until proven. I'm well aware of the MOT testers duties and obligations to safety but would be very interested if a tyre failure in an accident were proven to be at fault and most of all ... how? If the accident were a serious one I'll bet that the cause would be listed 'as said' but not investigated further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted August 26, 2018 Author Share Posted August 26, 2018 Brock ... Nudge ... Used by all the Supermarket designers no doubt.They must hate people like me ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deffheads Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 Hi, Check out the age of the tyres by reading the date produced on the tyre wall, If beyond the recommended 5 years, replace asap or face the consequences of failure and Inspection by insurers to validate any claim. The date on side walls gives the week they were produced and the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 Deffheads - 2018-08-26 4:47 PM Hi, Check out the age of the tyres by reading the date produced on the tyre wall, If beyond the recommended 5 years, replace asap or face the consequences of failure and Inspection by insurers to validate any claim. The date on side walls gives the week they were produced and the year. Sorry Kevin, but I have to disagree with the mythical '5 Years' rule. Continental clearly quote 10 Years in their on-line brochure... "Tyre service life recommendation Continental recommends that all tyres (including spare tyres) that were manufactured more than ten (10) years previous be replaced with new tyres" From page 122 of this download... https://blobs.continental-tires.com/www8/servlet/blob/85806/e0854f2c7866c64da551474b998ef8b3/download-technical-databook-data.pdf Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 This is one of Will’s ‘provoke a discussion’ postings and I‘m sure that the tyre side-wall cracking he refers to does not apply to his own vehicle. The UK’s current MOT-test criteria that apply to the tyres that one would anticipate be fitted to motorhomes are described in Section 5.2.3 here https://www.mot-testing.service.gov.uk/documents/manuals/class3457/Section-5-Axles-Wheels-Tyres-and-Suspension.html#section_5.2 The MOT-test inspector is advised as follows: "You can use a blunt instrument to open a cut in the tyre to check for exposed ply or cord as long as you don't cause further damage. When assessing cuts in a tyre, it is permissible to check whether a cut is deep enough to reach the play or cord by using a blunt instrument to open the cut taking care not to cause further damage. The following criteria should be used when assessing a cut in a tyre: - any ply or cord that can be seen without touching the tyre – fail - if by folding back rubber or opening a cut with a blunt instrument, so as not to cause further damage, exposed ply or cord can be seen irrespective of the size of the cut – fail - if a cut which is more than 25mm or 10% of the section width whichever is the greater, is opened with a blunt instrument and cords can be felt but not seen – fail Before failing a cut, you must make sure it's the cords that you can feel not a foreign object. If you're not sure, then you should pass and advise. When assessing lumps or bulges in a radial ply tyre, care should be taken to distinguish between normal undulations in the carcass, resulting from manufacturing, and lumps or bulges caused by structural deterioration.” This link https://www.bktyres.co.uk/visual-signs-tyres-need-replacing/ includes a photo of a tyre with “cracking and crazing in the sidewall” - which I think is the sort of damage Will has in mind. While this is clearly a sign of deterioration, its presence should not result in an MOT-test failure, though its quite likely/probable that the MOT-test inspector will advise that the cracking exists. (In fact, with that degree of visual degradation, I doubt anyone would decide to ignore advice that the tyre in the photo should be replaced, even if it passed the MOT-test.) After 4 years and very little mileage, all four original Continental tyres on my wife’s Skoda car (bought new in 2009) exhibited signs of ‘perishing' at the base of each tread groove. The MOT-tester issued an advisory notice and, when I asked about the phenomenon, I was told that this was commonplace and ‘cosmetic’, and did not affect the integrity of the tyre itself. As the perishing was restricted to the base of the tread grooves I decided to keep a close eye on it to see if it would worsen or spread to the tyres’ sidewalls, but it did neither. After a couple more years, with two of the tyres having by now worn down further, I chose to replace all four with Hankook tyres. The Skoda has four factory-fitted alloy wheels and came with a full-size steel spare wheel with the same Continental tyre as those on the alloys. The spare wheel/tyre lives in the car’s boot, has never been fitted and shows none of the ‘perishing’ that showed up on the other tyres. I treat it as an ‘emergency spare wheel’ and - although the tyre is now 9 years old - I have no intention of replacing it purely on age grounds. The initial postng of this 2013 discussion also refers to ‘perishing’ - in this instance between the treads of all 4 Continental tyres of a 2-year-old car that had covered 12,000 miles. https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4777648#topofpage No persuasive advice (as far as I’m concerned) was provided to explain the phenomenon, other than the obvious one - that it was a consequence of how the tyres had been manufactured and how they reacted during normal usage. There’s no general recommendation that tyres should be replaced after 5 years usage. In fact - if one were to follow the advice here https://www.blackcircles.com/helpcentre/tyres/age-of-a-tyre a car tyre that had (say) been manufactured in 2018 could still be considered ’new’ if it were fitted to a car in 2023 and would not reach the suggested minimum 7-year usage-threshold until 2030 when the tyre would be 12 years old. This 2010 Caravan Club article https://www.caravanclub.co.uk/media/6671085/technical.pdf says “..the Club advises that tyres “should never be used for more than seven years from their date of manufacture” but that is (good) advice not a mandatory requirement. Interestingly, in the upper row of photos on the 2nd page, there’s one showing the type of tread-groove-base crazing that my Skoda car’s Continental tyres had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted August 26, 2018 Author Share Posted August 26, 2018 All correct Derek thank you. Makes a wet afternoon pass a little smoother. Interestingly perhaps ... with modern materials and methods one would assume their life would be extended far longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deffheads Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 Keithl - 2018-08-26 6:13 PM Deffheads - 2018-08-26 4:47 PM Hi, Check out the age of the tyres by reading the date produced on the tyre wall, If beyond the recommended 5 years, replace asap or face the consequences of failure and Inspection by insurers to validate any claim. The date on side walls gives the week they were produced and the year. Sorry Kevin, but I have to disagree with the mythical '5 Years' rule. Continental clearly quote 10 Years in their on-line brochure... "Tyre service life recommendation Continental recommends that all tyres (including spare tyres) that were manufactured more than ten (10) years previous be replaced with new tyres" From page 122 of this download... https://blobs.continental-tires.com/www8/servlet/blob/85806/e0854f2c7866c64da551474b998ef8b3/download-technical-databook-data.pdf Keith. Hi Keith, I've seen the damage done to a motorhome when a tyre dies and shreds, so take heed and replace, don't ignore and take a chance. Do you run with cracked tyre walls? I doubt it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starvin marvin Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 Will86 - 2018-08-26 12:07 PM Are they really a serious issue ... or is it normal for the drying skin to show ageing just as it does with the human body, but with the remaining interior still very safe and usable ... as are we humans ? Its only a skinning to cover the mesh of corded material that keeps the pressure from escaping. Or is this another excuse for an increase in sales by frightening the user into thinking he'll be due for a crash? Has a crash investigation ever detailed cracked walls as the cause ? So much of modern life is to frighten the customer into buying that extra. Even the police themselves are prone to it. Around Christmas we often have notices posted in the street purporting that criminals are close by. They also added that they were seen in a black shiny Range Rover with bright alloy wheels. No criminal with any sense would be seen in such a vehicle. I will post a copy if it happens this year. I did write them a note last time accusing them of scaremongering but no answer arrived. Have you heard of natural selection? Because I think you’re about to experience it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 Yes, sometimes forums can get a bit serious and po faced so a provocative post from time to time can get contributors going and raise a smile at their indignation. Perhaps the topic should have been titled " do you feel lucky, punk"? (Because that's what driving on cracked tyres boils down to) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 This useful June 2018 RoSPA factsheet deals with tyre safety and includes a “Tyre ageing” section https://www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-services/road-safety/vehicles/tyre-safety-factsheet.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted August 27, 2018 Author Share Posted August 27, 2018 Bill G, I have no interest in writing like that, I was born in the 1920's. You refer to driving 'on' cracked tyres. ON was not my wording. -------------------------------------- The Rospa info supplied by Derek only applies (here) to the tread which I fully endorse. My original post was about cracks on the side wall of a tyre, a very different issue. I doubt we will ever know if a so called 'blow out' occurred from the tread surface or a side wall. Do we know what is the purpose of the black or white sealant on the tyre side, is it to provide a pretty appearance to match the colour of the tread and not to expose the light color possibly nylon webbing which would no be a good sales point. I believe there is much more to tyre design than it being a 'simple tyre'. Why produce white walled tyres, It achieves a sale value, little else. The food advise 'best before date' comes to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 Will86 - 2018-08-27 10:19 AM The Rospa info supplied by Derek only applies (here) to the tread... No it doesn’t... "RoSPA’s recommendation to motorists is to ask their tyre manufacturer for the age at which they recommend tyres should be changed, and to regularly check their tyres for age-related defects, such as - Cracking/crazing on the side wall of the tyre, caused by its flexi - Distortion of tyre tread - Deformation of the carcass of the tyre Tyres that display these signs of ageing should be removed and not put to further use." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted August 27, 2018 Author Share Posted August 27, 2018 I do get the impression that there's a lot of 'read the rules' labeling with the final action up to the user so perhaps that is all that can be achieved. Its an issue that has developed over time. Years ago I hired a car quite oblivious of what tyres were for, we developed a puncture, upon inspection half the tyre surface was bald with no rubber surface at all, that's how it was in the 1950's. Its a bit like jumping traffic lights, some do some don't some never will. Not a lot more I can throw into the mix without investigating how and why a tyre is made in such a way and what tests they go through during manufacture. No more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 Deffheads - 2018-08-26 4:47 PM the recommended 5 years, recommended by those who are in business to sell tyres *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chas Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 Because the school holidays have a week to finish I feel that cabin fever is taking hold, and this discussion will soon then peter out, hopefully :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 Will86 - 2018-08-27 11:07 AM ...Not a lot more I can throw into the mix without investigating how and why a tyre is made in such a way and what tests they go through during manufacture... Plenty of on-line material if you want to carry out those two investigations https://tinyurl.com/y7x93jw5 https://tinyurl.com/ydfgfgma If you really wanted to pursue whether ‘crazing’ on the surface of a tyre’s sidewall (rather than ‘cracks’ that would cause an MOT-test failure) should be considered as making the tyre unsafe to use, you could contact tyre manufacturers and ask them. Not sure, though, how you could frame your question without it producing an “It all depends” reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deffheads Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 Will86 - 2018-08-27 11:19 AM Bill G, I have no interest in writing like that, I was born in the 1920's. You refer to driving 'on' cracked tyres. ON was not my wording. -------------------------------------- Perhaps you should look at at previous posting ' when to give up' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blaven Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 Surely the physical age of the tyre is largely immaterial. A vehicle which is, say, driven down to Spain, and which may stay there for a considerable length of time in hot sun may be subject to ultra violet degradation of the exposed sidewalls. This presupposes that the owner may be ignorant of the deleterious effect of U.V. and does not protect the rubber. In my experience, the more 'budget' the tyre, the worse the effect. I've noticed this on an Ifor Williams trailer with sidewall cracking over the years despite very low mileage because I was ignorant of this possibility and had not protected them from the weather even though the trailer was largely unused. I'm sorry, academic discussion about even the possibility of driving with visual defects makes me very edgy. If I saw even a hint of cracking I'd be reaching for my credit cards for the reasons in my earlier reply. An off-roading course I attended many years ago stressed that the strongest part of any tyre was the tread, which was why one aimed to place one's wheels bang on a boulder or obstruction, not scrape the sidewall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumblewagon Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 My current van was 6 years old when I bought it. It still had the original Michelin Aguila tyres which had signs of cracking sidewalls. When I took the van to be serviced, this was noted, but later when it went for its MoT, the tyres weren't mentioned. I asked the inspector about this and he said that the tyres were perfectly OK as far as the MoT was concerned and he saw no safety concerns. However - I had Michelin tyres fail on two previous vans when they were only about 4-5 years old - the failure was on the inside tyre wall, with no obvious defects on the outer side. To be safe, I changed all 4 tyres for Nokian C-Line tyres, and these seem fine. Certainly a lot quieter than the Michelins. I take the point about 'Project fear'. I would not be inclined to slavishly change good tyres just because of some arbitrary date. I only changed the tyres on my van because of past experience of that brand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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