Guest pelmetman Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 John52 - 2018-09-21 4:00 PM Tracker - 2018-09-21 2:55 PM Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 1:55 PM I have asked myself the question “in what circumstances can any referendum be considered democratic”. A philosophical question that I admit I am not learned enough to answer. My best effort is to assert that the result of a vote secured by way of a referendum is valid and in line with democratic principles when the electorate make an informed choice and that choice leads to a specific outcome. The EU referendum was nothing of the kind. I agree. The trouble with democracy is that it only works for some of the people for some of the time whereas the alternatives seem to work for even less of the people for even less of the time. I don't think the principle of a referendum is wrong, but the decision to hold this one and the timing certainly was, as was the lack of public education by the Remainers who should have realised the chaos and uncertainty it would cause. Nobody in authority seems to have realised the complications of unraveling 40 years worth of integration decisions or the resistance to the EU accepting our democratic decision not to remain in their gang, or if they did their voices were ignored by the media or drowned out in the clamour. As a result we may well end up where we do not want to be and although I do see a bright long term future for the UK after Brexit I have always said that it won't come easy. If the UK had not been in the EU and the referendum had been shall we join the EU, I would have voted NO as I don't believe that the UK needs others to hide amongst in order to thrive. Perfect it ain't but is there a better way? The referendum was not called in the interests of the country. The referendum was called in the interests of the Tory party - because Tories were defecting to UKIP, risking defeat for both in the first past the post election system. Cameron obviously miscalculated for a number of reasons. I don't think he foresaw the Tory press would support UKIP because its owners are worried about an EU wide tax treaty getting into HM Tax Havens so they have to pay tax. Or that Osborne would shoot himself in the foot by saying leaving the EU would lead to a fall in house prices - which many voters (including myself) think would be a good thing if it was caused by easing restrictions on housing supply. Unfortunately leaving the EU is likely to cause a fall in house prices by causing a recession - including unemployment, inflation, negative equity, reposessions - and another banking crisis for the long-suffering tax payer to bail out again. Blah blah blah.......our resident Tory basher is like a stuck record *-) ........... It must be quite annoying to know Corbyn is also a closet Brexiteer (lol) ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-09-21 3:52 PM Tracker - 2018-09-21 12:10 PM Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 11:55 AM I think it likely that the EU negotiators are happiest with no deal too Dave in the hope that it would make it more likely that parliament will vote to hold a second referendum. It has all the makings of a monumental cock up as a direct result of national disunity exacerbated by media paranoia and an opposition hell bent on not supporting the government and the democratic referendum vote. As I have said all along the only way to negotiate successfully, especially with an entity like the EU, is from a position of strength and national unity presenting a consistently strong and unified case. The 'national disunity' became apparent during the run up to the referendum which itself was a 'monumental cock up' and since the outcome result, has become even more crystal clear. How more divisive can you get with such a tiny miniscule percentage separating the two which not only split the country in half, but tore families apart? 17,410,742 .........If Corbyn got that many votes in an election, would you call it a "Tiny minuscule percentage"? ;-) ............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W3526602 Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 <<< the EU have stated they would extend article 50 for either an election or a second referendum, >>> Hi, So you don't trust our politicians, but you trust theirs? But you may be right, maybe they will wait for another referendum ... and we can enjoy their faces if they got it wrong, and BREXIT win again. Or maybe an election will come first, which will be good for them, as they they will have already reached a secret agreement with our Fiifth Columnists. Which means that they trust our politicains in waiting, despite the evidence of their un-trustworthiness.. Either way, what makes you think the Brexiteers will wind their necks in? If things don't suddenly improve ... and why should they? ... Joe Public will be blaming Remoaning activists. There can only be one reason why the EU wants us to remain. BECAUSE IT WILL BENEFIT THEM. But not only that, if you give into a bully, you are inviting them to up the ante. I did not know what BREXIT would mean. But I knew what REMAINING would mean .... the EU upping the ante after Cameron's failure to secure better terms. I did not expect BREXIT to be easy, but I voted to leave. I expected my vote to be writen in stone. And I expected everybody else's vote to be writen in stone too. I didn't see anything about changing my mind. Do you remember the advertising campaign ... BUY BRITISH. It's probably a criminal offence to put those words on an advert now. The EU will continue to grow and grow ... until it bursts. Get out while you can. And please stop trelling me why I voted to leave. You would be upset if I told you why I think you voted to remain. 602 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-09-21 4:01 PM Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 3:34 PM pelmetman - 2018-09-21 2:55 PM Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 1:55 PM I have asked myself the question “in what circumstances can any referendum be considered democratic”. A philosophical question that I admit I am not learned enough to answer. My best effort is to assert that the result of a vote secured by way of a referendum is valid and in line with democratic principles when the electorate make an informed choice and that choice leads to a specific outcome. The EU referendum was nothing of the kind. Which bit of........ Do you want to stay in the EU.......... Do you want to leave the EU........ Did you not understand? ;-) .......... You saw it a single question Dave and I respect the fact that you didn't care about the terms of the "divorce". I have friends and family members who agree with you. Nevertheless, I don't think you can argue that the referendum result represented a vote for a no deal Brexit. Did you vote Leave?......No.....so any divorce terms are irrelevant ;-) ............... All you Remoaners are trying to do is force through another referendum vote..... because you think your UK backstabbing actions may have swung the vote in your favour *-) ........ If you were really concerned about democracy you'd be asking for the vote purely to be about accepting a the deal or leaving with a No deal.......But we all "know" that's not the question you Remoaners want asked is it? :-| ........ At least Mrs May is showing no signs of giving in to the Whinging Brigade B-) ........... I don’t follow your logic Dave. Are you saying that only people who voted to leave have any right to express a view on the terms of our departure or to seek to influence what those terms are? That's not democracy that's a form of tyranny. When it comes to the end of period for negotiation there may be only “stay in” or “no deal” on the table. I don't see that there is any justification based on any democratic principle for the result of the referendum being honored without further recourse to the electorate if the choice is that stark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-09-21 4:04 PM John52 - 2018-09-21 4:00 PM Tracker - 2018-09-21 2:55 PM Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 1:55 PM I have asked myself the question “in what circumstances can any referendum be considered democratic”. A philosophical question that I admit I am not learned enough to answer. My best effort is to assert that the result of a vote secured by way of a referendum is valid and in line with democratic principles when the electorate make an informed choice and that choice leads to a specific outcome. The EU referendum was nothing of the kind. I agree. The trouble with democracy is that it only works for some of the people for some of the time whereas the alternatives seem to work for even less of the people for even less of the time. I don't think the principle of a referendum is wrong, but the decision to hold this one and the timing certainly was, as was the lack of public education by the Remainers who should have realised the chaos and uncertainty it would cause. Nobody in authority seems to have realised the complications of unraveling 40 years worth of integration decisions or the resistance to the EU accepting our democratic decision not to remain in their gang, or if they did their voices were ignored by the media or drowned out in the clamour. As a result we may well end up where we do not want to be and although I do see a bright long term future for the UK after Brexit I have always said that it won't come easy. If the UK had not been in the EU and the referendum had been shall we join the EU, I would have voted NO as I don't believe that the UK needs others to hide amongst in order to thrive. Perfect it ain't but is there a better way? The referendum was not called in the interests of the country. The referendum was called in the interests of the Tory party - because Tories were defecting to UKIP, risking defeat for both in the first past the post election system. Cameron obviously miscalculated for a number of reasons. I don't think he foresaw the Tory press would support UKIP because its owners are worried about an EU wide tax treaty getting into HM Tax Havens so they have to pay tax. Or that Osborne would shoot himself in the foot by saying leaving the EU would lead to a fall in house prices - which many voters (including myself) think would be a good thing if it was caused by easing restrictions on housing supply. Unfortunately leaving the EU is likely to cause a fall in house prices by causing a recession - including unemployment, inflation, negative equity, reposessions - and another banking crisis for the long-suffering tax payer to bail out again. Blah blah blah.......our resident Tory basher is like a stuck record *-) ........... It must be quite annoying to know Corbyn is also a closet Brexiteer (lol) ........... As resident Brextremist you've been long stuck and it must be frustrating knowing May 'U turned' to swap camps when Johnson and co ran off! (lol)(lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-09-21 4:10 PM Bulletguy - 2018-09-21 3:52 PM Tracker - 2018-09-21 12:10 PM Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 11:55 AM I think it likely that the EU negotiators are happiest with no deal too Dave in the hope that it would make it more likely that parliament will vote to hold a second referendum. It has all the makings of a monumental cock up as a direct result of national disunity exacerbated by media paranoia and an opposition hell bent on not supporting the government and the democratic referendum vote. As I have said all along the only way to negotiate successfully, especially with an entity like the EU, is from a position of strength and national unity presenting a consistently strong and unified case. The 'national disunity' became apparent during the run up to the referendum which itself was a 'monumental cock up' and since the outcome result, has become even more crystal clear. How more divisive can you get with such a tiny miniscule percentage separating the two which not only split the country in half, but tore families apart? 17,410,742 .........If Corbyn got that many votes in an election, would you call it a "Tiny minuscule percentage"? ;-) ............... That's not the figure which separates the two though which was what i referred to in that post. It's 3.8% which is miniscule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W3526602 Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 <<< Nevertheless, I don't think you can argue that the referendum result represented a vote for a no deal Brexit. >>> Hi, When I voted, I did not anticipate that there might be an acceptable deal. Er ... what were we voting for in the referendum that asked if we wanted to join the Common Market? I certainly didn't vote for what we've got. So ... if everybody who voted to join the Common Martet changed our minds, there would have been no need for the latest referendum. 602 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-09-21 4:04 PM Blah blah blah.......our resident Tory basher is like a stuck record *-) ........... I just thought if I said it enough it might sink in ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 W3526602 - 2018-09-21 5:07 PM The EU will continue to grow and grow ... until it bursts.Get out while you can Sorry, but I can't understand what you mean W3526602 - 2018-09-21 5:07 PM . And please stop trelling me why I voted to leave. 602 do you think everyone else who voted to leave did so for the same reason as you? and that they weren't persuaded by Brexiteers making promises they can't keep? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 1:55 PM I have asked myself the question “in what circumstances can any referendum be considered democratic”. A philosophical question that I admit I am not learned enough to answer. My best effort is to assert that the result of a vote secured by way of a referendum is valid and in line with democratic principles when the electorate make an informed choice and that choice leads to a specific outcome. The EU referendum was nothing of the kind. Now look what you started unless it was, coincidentally, moron o'clock and they all came flooding out of the woodwork hell bent on buggering up any form of discussion with the same old repetitive political clap trap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 Tracker - 2018-09-21 6:52 PM Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 1:55 PM I have asked myself the question “in what circumstances can any referendum be considered democratic”. A philosophical question that I admit I am not learned enough to answer. My best effort is to assert that the result of a vote secured by way of a referendum is valid and in line with democratic principles when the electorate make an informed choice and that choice leads to a specific outcome. The EU referendum was nothing of the kind. Now look what you started unless it was, coincidentally, moron o'clock and they all came flooding out of the woodwork hell bent on buggering up any form of discussion with the same old repetitive political clap trap. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W3526602 Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 <<< do you think everyone else who voted to leave did so for the same reason as you? and that they weren't persuaded by Brexiteers making promises they can't keep? >>> Hi John52, No, I think we each made our own decisions, according to our own needs and desires. Campervanners, for instance, will want to have easy access into Europe. People living near the ferry ports might not want several hundred HGVs thundering down their streets several times a day. Promises they can't keep? I'd say the promises were more than counter-balanced by the threats that that can't be kept. I detest Corbyn, but I think he is the only politician so far, who has admitted that political promises are little more than asperations. Some voters believed the Brexiteers asperations, some believed the Remoaners threats. Which had the greatest influence ... promises or threats? As for growing too big and bursting? Carillion might be an example. Or how about the recent railway fiasco, where nobody was willing, or maybe were not able, to take charge and sort it out. As my father said ... there are those who want to DO a good job, and there are those who just WANT a good job. The latter usually wear suits, and have been promoted to their Incompetence Level. 602 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-09-21 5:27 PM pelmetman - 2018-09-21 4:10 PM Bulletguy - 2018-09-21 3:52 PM Tracker - 2018-09-21 12:10 PM Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 11:55 AM I think it likely that the EU negotiators are happiest with no deal too Dave in the hope that it would make it more likely that parliament will vote to hold a second referendum. It has all the makings of a monumental cock up as a direct result of national disunity exacerbated by media paranoia and an opposition hell bent on not supporting the government and the democratic referendum vote. As I have said all along the only way to negotiate successfully, especially with an entity like the EU, is from a position of strength and national unity presenting a consistently strong and unified case. The 'national disunity' became apparent during the run up to the referendum which itself was a 'monumental cock up' and since the outcome result, has become even more crystal clear. How more divisive can you get with such a tiny miniscule percentage separating the two which not only split the country in half, but tore families apart? 17,410,742 .........If Corbyn got that many votes in an election, would you call it a "Tiny minuscule percentage"? ;-) ............... That's not the figure which separates the two though which was what i referred to in that post. It's 3.8% which is miniscule. So if Labour won by 3.8% would you still be calling it "Minuscule"? >:-) .......... Nah thought not *-) .............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 5:12 PM pelmetman - 2018-09-21 4:01 PM Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 3:34 PM pelmetman - 2018-09-21 2:55 PM Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 1:55 PM I have asked myself the question “in what circumstances can any referendum be considered democratic”. A philosophical question that I admit I am not learned enough to answer. My best effort is to assert that the result of a vote secured by way of a referendum is valid and in line with democratic principles when the electorate make an informed choice and that choice leads to a specific outcome. The EU referendum was nothing of the kind. Which bit of........ Do you want to stay in the EU.......... Do you want to leave the EU........ Did you not understand? ;-) .......... You saw it a single question Dave and I respect the fact that you didn't care about the terms of the "divorce". I have friends and family members who agree with you. Nevertheless, I don't think you can argue that the referendum result represented a vote for a no deal Brexit. Did you vote Leave?......No.....so any divorce terms are irrelevant ;-) ............... All you Remoaners are trying to do is force through another referendum vote..... because you think your UK backstabbing actions may have swung the vote in your favour *-) ........ If you were really concerned about democracy you'd be asking for the vote purely to be about accepting a the deal or leaving with a No deal.......But we all "know" that's not the question you Remoaners want asked is it? :-| ........ At least Mrs May is showing no signs of giving in to the Whinging Brigade B-) ........... I don’t follow your logic Dave. Are you saying that only people who voted to leave have any right to express a view on the terms of our departure or to seek to influence what those terms are? That's not democracy that's a form of tyranny. When it comes to the end of period for negotiation there may be only “stay in” or “no deal” on the table. I don't see that there is any justification based on any democratic principle for the result of the referendum being honored without further recourse to the electorate if the choice is that stark. Exactly! All the talk is of a second referendum with two or three choices such as accepting the deal or remain or accepting the deal, leaving with no deal or remain but its increasingly likely that the choices are going to be remain or crash out with no deal. Nobody apart from the Kamikaze hard Brexiteers actually want to leave with no deal so given that stark choice as you put it surely it would be a white wash for Remain. Its not honouring the referendum people will say but neither is leaving with no deal. The entire Brexit campaign was based on the fantastic deal we would get despite what was on the ballet paper. Brexiteers shouldn't have over promised and not only that, we now know the consequences of a no deal exit which we didnt know over two years ago, at least not in the detail we know now. If no deal is on the cards and I now hope that it is, Parliament have to throw it back the people. We cannot leave on no deal anyway, its written into law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 Barryd999 - 2018-09-22 12:18 PM We cannot leave on no deal anyway, its written into law. I wonder why they're spending millions on "No Deal" preparations ;-) ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 5:12 PM I don’t follow your logic Dave. Are you saying that only people who voted to leave have any right to express a view on the terms of our departure or to seek to influence what those terms are? That's not democracy that's a form of tyranny. When it comes to the end of period for negotiation there may be only “stay in” or “no deal” on the table. I don't see that there is any justification based on any democratic principle for the result of the referendum being honored without further recourse to the electorate if the choice is that stark. But your not interested in a deal are you? ;-) .............. Remoaners are only interested in preventing Brexit at any cost *-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-09-22 12:35 PM Barryd999 - 2018-09-22 12:18 PM We cannot leave on no deal anyway, its written into law. I wonder why they're spending millions on "No Deal" preparations ;-) ....... Too little too late. Bluff and bluster. Dont see any work going on at our ports do you? Your only hope is that the pollys put party before the people as no MP in their right minds would sanction a no deal scenario and I dont believe that given the chance that the public would vote for it either. I reckon your only hope of saving Brexit is if we do end up tied to some crappy fudged deal and whats the point of that? You will argue of course that we will just default on it down the road but I doubt it. The EU will have it well nailed down and if we have accepted it (whatever it is) it will be for a reason. There is of course a democratic and easy way out of it all if we are presented with No Deal. Ask the public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-09-22 12:39 PM Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 5:12 PM I don’t follow your logic Dave. Are you saying that only people who voted to leave have any right to express a view on the terms of our departure or to seek to influence what those terms are? That's not democracy that's a form of tyranny. When it comes to the end of period for negotiation there may be only “stay in” or “no deal” on the table. I don't see that there is any justification based on any democratic principle for the result of the referendum being honored without further recourse to the electorate if the choice is that stark. But your not interested in a deal are you? ;-) .............. Remoaners are only interested in preventing Brexit at any cost *-) .......... There are remain voters who are not intent upon preventing Brexit. FYI I haven't made my mind up about whether there should be another referendum I'm still contemplating the pros and cons. There may be good reasons not to hold one that are nothing to do with matters of principle, democratic or otherwise even if faced with the stark choice of no deal or remain. However I still maintain that as “Leave the EU regardless of the outcome of any negotiations about the terms of our exit” was not one of the choices we were given on the referendum ballot paper it would not be undemocratic to hold another one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-09-22 9:05 AM Bulletguy - 2018-09-21 5:27 PM pelmetman - 2018-09-21 4:10 PM Bulletguy - 2018-09-21 3:52 PM Tracker - 2018-09-21 12:10 PM Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 11:55 AM I think it likely that the EU negotiators are happiest with no deal too Dave in the hope that it would make it more likely that parliament will vote to hold a second referendum. It has all the makings of a monumental cock up as a direct result of national disunity exacerbated by media paranoia and an opposition hell bent on not supporting the government and the democratic referendum vote. As I have said all along the only way to negotiate successfully, especially with an entity like the EU, is from a position of strength and national unity presenting a consistently strong and unified case. The 'national disunity' became apparent during the run up to the referendum which itself was a 'monumental cock up' and since the outcome result, has become even more crystal clear. How more divisive can you get with such a tiny miniscule percentage separating the two which not only split the country in half, but tore families apart? 17,410,742 .........If Corbyn got that many votes in an election, would you call it a "Tiny minuscule percentage"? ;-) ............... That's not the figure which separates the two though which was what i referred to in that post. It's 3.8% which is miniscule. So if Labour won by 3.8% would you still be calling it "Minuscule"? >:-) .......... Nah thought not *-) .............. What has Labour 'winning' got to do with the point being made here? Absolutely nothing at all. You cannot compare an election with the EU referendum as the two are completely different. The former can easily be changed every four years......the latter can not. You can continue using all kinds of excuses and deflections but it won't ever hide the fact the gap of just 3.8% is abysmal and indicative of a completely divided country. You need to start taking this matter a lot more seriously than some kind of game. The foolishness of Brexit has already cost the country more than it would have had we remained in the EU......and we haven't even left yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-09-22 5:47 PM pelmetman - 2018-09-22 9:05 AM Bulletguy - 2018-09-21 5:27 PM pelmetman - 2018-09-21 4:10 PM Bulletguy - 2018-09-21 3:52 PM Tracker - 2018-09-21 12:10 PM Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 11:55 AM I think it likely that the EU negotiators are happiest with no deal too Dave in the hope that it would make it more likely that parliament will vote to hold a second referendum. It has all the makings of a monumental cock up as a direct result of national disunity exacerbated by media paranoia and an opposition hell bent on not supporting the government and the democratic referendum vote. As I have said all along the only way to negotiate successfully, especially with an entity like the EU, is from a position of strength and national unity presenting a consistently strong and unified case. The 'national disunity' became apparent during the run up to the referendum which itself was a 'monumental cock up' and since the outcome result, has become even more crystal clear. How more divisive can you get with such a tiny miniscule percentage separating the two which not only split the country in half, but tore families apart? 17,410,742 .........If Corbyn got that many votes in an election, would you call it a "Tiny minuscule percentage"? ;-) ............... That's not the figure which separates the two though which was what i referred to in that post. It's 3.8% which is miniscule. So if Labour won by 3.8% would you still be calling it "Minuscule"? >:-) .......... Nah thought not *-) .............. What has Labour 'winning' got to do with the point being made here? Absolutely nothing at all. You cannot compare an election with the EU referendum as the two are completely different. The former can easily be changed every four years......the latter can not. You can continue using all kinds of excuses and deflections but it won't ever hide the fact the gap of just 3.8% is abysmal and indicative of a completely divided country. You need to start taking this matter a lot more seriously than some kind of game. The foolishness of Brexit has already cost the country more than it would have had we remained in the EU......and we haven't even left yet. Ive heard people say "A wins a win" but it isnt really. Its why there should have been a super majority required. All thats happened is the division in the country has spilled over into Parliament and both the Tories and Labour. Not only is Brexit like banging square pegs in round holes which would be difficult enough even if we all wanted it but the fact that nobody, not even Government is decided upon what Brexit actual is or should be makes it even more ridiculous. The best thing would be to just admit we have made a massive mistake and just call it off. If I were a Brexiteer I would think that now. I would rather live to fight another day, learn from the mistakes and wait for a time when both the public and the government would be more united. Oh yeah and perhaps actually have a plan next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 Barryd999 - 2018-09-22 8:12 PM Bulletguy - 2018-09-22 5:47 PM pelmetman - 2018-09-22 9:05 AM Bulletguy - 2018-09-21 5:27 PM pelmetman - 2018-09-21 4:10 PM Bulletguy - 2018-09-21 3:52 PM Tracker - 2018-09-21 12:10 PM Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 11:55 AM I think it likely that the EU negotiators are happiest with no deal too Dave in the hope that it would make it more likely that parliament will vote to hold a second referendum. It has all the makings of a monumental cock up as a direct result of national disunity exacerbated by media paranoia and an opposition hell bent on not supporting the government and the democratic referendum vote. As I have said all along the only way to negotiate successfully, especially with an entity like the EU, is from a position of strength and national unity presenting a consistently strong and unified case. The 'national disunity' became apparent during the run up to the referendum which itself was a 'monumental cock up' and since the outcome result, has become even more crystal clear. How more divisive can you get with such a tiny miniscule percentage separating the two which not only split the country in half, but tore families apart? 17,410,742 .........If Corbyn got that many votes in an election, would you call it a "Tiny minuscule percentage"? ;-) ............... That's not the figure which separates the two though which was what i referred to in that post. It's 3.8% which is miniscule. So if Labour won by 3.8% would you still be calling it "Minuscule"? >:-) .......... Nah thought not *-) .............. What has Labour 'winning' got to do with the point being made here? Absolutely nothing at all. You cannot compare an election with the EU referendum as the two are completely different. The former can easily be changed every four years......the latter can not. You can continue using all kinds of excuses and deflections but it won't ever hide the fact the gap of just 3.8% is abysmal and indicative of a completely divided country. You need to start taking this matter a lot more seriously than some kind of game. The foolishness of Brexit has already cost the country more than it would have had we remained in the EU......and we haven't even left yet. Ive heard people say "A wins a win" but it isnt really. Its why there should have been a super majority required. All thats happened is the division in the country has spilled over into Parliament and both the Tories and Labour. Not only is Brexit like banging square pegs in round holes which would be difficult enough even if we all wanted it but the fact that nobody, not even Government is decided upon what Brexit actual is or should be makes it even more ridiculous. The best thing would be to just admit we have made a massive mistake and just call it off. If I were a Brexiteer I would think that now. I would rather live to fight another day, learn from the mistakes and wait for a time when both the public and the government would be more united. Oh yeah and perhaps actually have a plan next time. Cameron was to blame for his 'in/out' options on the ballot paper which was utterly ludicrous as the nation has seen. He should have set a decisive parameter. Instead we end up with a totally divisive vote with a tiny 3.8% majority splitting the country apart and how anyone can expect support for that just beggars belief. Even less to feel secure with it....had i voted Brexit i would be extremely uncomfortable with such a miniscule figure. 'No deal' wasn't an option on the ballot paper yet some lunatics are still determined to drag the rest of the country down with them. They fear a peoples vote on it just as they fear the call for a second referendum. Had they any confidence at all they would welcome it.....but they don't have the confidence any longer. Even Tory MP's are among those in disagreement. The honeymoon partying period is long over and the referendum was called without anyone having a feasible exit plan in place. And May now demands the EU treat her and the UK with respect! How can anyone respect such mindless bumbling buffoonery which has turned the country into the laughing stock of Europe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 Farage is out rallying the troops (about 25 red faced angry pensioners by the look of it) in Bolton. He seems to think leaving with no deal is just fine which I find odd as he sold Brexit with comments like "Would it be so terrible if we were like Norway?". Here are some of his not so clued up Brexiteer supporters on their way to the gig trying to explain what they dont like about the Chequers deal. (lol) Two and a half years and they still know feck all. https://news.sky.com/story/farage-launches-campaign-against-brexit-betrayal-11505808 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 Violet1956 - 2018-09-22 4:28 PM There are remain voters who are not intent upon preventing Brexit. FYI I haven't made my mind up There's only 188 days to go Veronica ;-) ....... It's high time you got off that fence :D ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-09-22 5:47 PM pelmetman - 2018-09-22 9:05 AM Bulletguy - 2018-09-21 5:27 PM pelmetman - 2018-09-21 4:10 PM Bulletguy - 2018-09-21 3:52 PM Tracker - 2018-09-21 12:10 PM Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 11:55 AM I think it likely that the EU negotiators are happiest with no deal too Dave in the hope that it would make it more likely that parliament will vote to hold a second referendum. It has all the makings of a monumental cock up as a direct result of national disunity exacerbated by media paranoia and an opposition hell bent on not supporting the government and the democratic referendum vote. As I have said all along the only way to negotiate successfully, especially with an entity like the EU, is from a position of strength and national unity presenting a consistently strong and unified case. The 'national disunity' became apparent during the run up to the referendum which itself was a 'monumental cock up' and since the outcome result, has become even more crystal clear. How more divisive can you get with such a tiny miniscule percentage separating the two which not only split the country in half, but tore families apart? 17,410,742 .........If Corbyn got that many votes in an election, would you call it a "Tiny minuscule percentage"? ;-) ............... That's not the figure which separates the two though which was what i referred to in that post. It's 3.8% which is miniscule. So if Labour won by 3.8% would you still be calling it "Minuscule"? >:-) .......... Nah thought not *-) .............. What has Labour 'winning' got to do with the point being made here? Absolutely nothing at all. You cannot compare an election with the EU referendum as the two are completely different. The former can easily be changed every four years......the latter can not. It can be changed in 40+ years >:-) .............That's how long I've had to wait >:-( ......... After then I wont give a sh*t :D ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 Looks like Labour are going to be officially backing a second referendum after conference. Corbyn: I will back second Brexit vote if Labour party wants it. http://www.itv.com/news/2018-09-22/corbyn-i-will-back-second-brexit-vote-if-labour-party-wants-it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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