Speed limit anomoly.

[W3526602]

Hi,

 

I'm guessing that most of us know the campervans up to 3050kg unladen (I think) can travel a car speeds ... they are not restricted to goods vehicle speed limits.

 

I read somewhere, can't remember where, that a camper carrying goods IS restricted to goods vehicle limits. I don't know if that means "carrying goods commercially", or if it includes taking garden rubbish to the tip.

 

602

[Den]

It’s for commercial for reward.

 

[Billggski]

The unladen weight is a carry over from the lorry/van regulations and is the metric equivalent of three tons. "Unladen weight" is empty of all removable items, which is actually almost impossible to measure or enforce, it is not published for any mohos I know of.

[tonyishuk]

Could be corrected here ;

 

if you and family travel in the Motorhome to a car boot sale with intention to sell items you are commercial.

 

If you return with family in the Motorhome having purchased items without the intention to sell, you are not commercial!

 

Strange old world !

 

Rgds

[Keithl]

602,

 

The 'Goods' must be carried for Hire or Reward.

 

Quote from Gov.uk :

 

Motorhomes

Motorhomes or motor caravans are classed as goods vehicles if they:

 

carry goods for exhibition and sale

are used as a workshop

are used for storage

 

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

 

Keith.

[W3526602]

Hi Keith,

 

Thanks for confirming that ... add adding the enhancements.

 

It's little quirks in the law, like that, that can hit your licence when you thought you were innocent.

 

If I'm breaking the law, I like to know ... so I can prepare my cover story.

 

602

[Will86]

tonyishuk - 2018-09-23 2:21 PM

 

Could be corrected here ;

if you and family travel in the Motorhome to a car boot sale with intention to sell items you are commercial.

If you return with family in the Motorhome having purchased items without the intention to sell, you are not commercial!

 

To me a vehicle is still commercial in both directions if it is / was being used for commercial purposes on the same calendar day. If say, a 10 ton truck could be labelled as you suggest and ran into a shop window returning from a delivery after selling his outgoing load but returning home with a load to use for himself. What then ?

 

Perhaps a difference occurs as one is a 'commercial' vehicle and the other not so.

 

[Tracker]

My understanding is that hire or reward is the key phrase.

 

If you use your moho as a mobile office or carry goods or property for a business or for an employer or have any form of signwriting or advertising then it is considered to be commercial use.

 

Class 1 used to be SD&P private use and used to allow you to use your car/moho in connection with your own business but not if you carry goods or commercial property.

 

Taking your own cast offs to and from a car boot sale used to be pretty much standard Class 1 SD&P use but I believe the classifications now vary between insurers so read your certificate of insurance for their definitions.

 

When I worked for the Pru we paid our own car insurance at Class 1 rates and the Pru gave us full business cover for Class 2 use at no extra cost to us so we could use our own vehicles in connection with our employer's business as and when required. It was very much a grey area defining where use in connection with our own business ended and where use in connection with our employer's business began. For example if we collected or carried stationery or display material for our own use that was not deemed business use, but if we carried a colleague and visited a customer or followed his directions at any point or carried stationery for him that could have been construed as our employer's business in a court of law and therefore Class 2 business use. Simples it is not!

[1951Pete]

Tracker - 2018-09-24 2:24 PM

 

My understanding is that hire or reward is the key phrase.

 

If you use your moho as a mobile office or carry goods or property for a business or for an employer or have any form of signwriting or advertising then it is considered to be commercial use.

 

Class 1 used to be SD&P private use and used to allow you to use your car/moho in connection with your own business but not if you carry goods or commercial property.

 

Taking your own cast offs to and from a car boot sale used to be pretty much standard Class 1 SD&P use but I believe the classifications now vary between insurers so read your certificate of insurance for their definitions.

 

When I worked for the Pru we paid our own car insurance at Class 1 rates and the Pru gave us full business cover for Class 2 use at no extra cost to us so we could use our own vehicles in connection with our employer's business as and when required. It was very much a grey area defining where use in connection with our own business ended and where use in connection with our employer's business began. For example if we collected or carried stationery or display material for our own use that was not deemed business use, but if we carried a colleague and visited a customer or followed his directions at any point or carried stationery for him that could have been construed as our employer's business in a court of law and therefore Class 2 business use. Simples it is not!

 

A lot of insurance companies use better wording now. Social and domestic is with no business use or for commuting. Social and domestic use with commuting is for using your car or vehicle to travel to and from home to the workplace. Any vehicle use during working hours requires business use. Most police forces will check for business use if the officers suspect use during business hours. Even transporting files or paperwork between two different offices is business use and requires business insurance.

 

I had to have business use because I travelled between various offices during my working day. My insurance company did not charge me extra as my mileage was limited and they deemed my office work as low risk. But had I failed to declare it and was involved in an accident or got stopped by the Police I would have probably been deemed to have no insurance.

[W3526602]

<<< If say, a 10 ton truck could be labelled as you suggest and ran into a shop window returning from a delivery after selling his outgoing load but returning home with a load to use for himself. What then ? >>>

 

Hi,

 

Way back when, we would occasionally get reports if tractor units without their trailers being used on PLG tax discs. Maybe it was PHG tax discs?

 

The driver's defence was that he only pulled a trailer on the EU mainland, and was only driven in the UK while he was visiting his wife and kids for the weekend. No commercial use in the UK. I think that was accepted.

 

However, as soon as he added a traile, on the mainland, his truck was no longer legal in the UK, so was illegal outside the UK. But would Monsieur Plod be aware of that?

 

602

[spirou]

And then you claim the EU has a way of complicating matters. Just look at the mess in this thread alone, let alone all the car insurance questions on sites like honestjohn *-) :D

 

If a vehicle is registered as commercial it is commercial all the time. If it's registered as MH then it's a MH all the time. See how simple that is outside the UK? :-D

 

If you register your vehicle as commercial but then later install fixed beds, toilet etc. without declaring it, then you're in violation of your insurance and obviously registration conditions. If anyone would bother to check whether that's true or not. Whether I use my MH as a mobile office or carry goods for sale has absolutely no influence on anything. And good luck trying to prove that I'm doing any of it. Maybe I just need a yearly supply of baby diapers ;-)

[W3526602]

<<< If you register your vehicle as commercial but then later install fixed beds, toilet etc. without declaring it, then you're in violation of your insurance and obviously registration conditions. >>>

 

Hi Spirou,

 

The Self Build Motor Caravan Club have arranged with an insurer to insure vans at campervan rates during the conversion ... reverting to commercial rates if the project is not completed withinin the specified timescale.

 

DVLA will refuse to register a van as a motor caravan unless it has all the equipment specified in the regulations ... including (I think) the requirement that it looks like a motor caravan. I think the regulations are laid down in the RTA for speed limits that apply to DUAL PURPOSE VEHICLES. .....which include 4x4s (I think there may be weight limits. 2000kg?)

 

DVLA only recognise the description MOTOR CARAVAN. There ain't no such animals as camper-vans, nor motor-homes, etc.

 

602

[W3526602]

Hi,

 

Sorry, the RTA regulations above refer to converting a goods vehicle to a passenger or dual purpose vehicle.

 

For converting a van to a camper, see ....

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/registering-a-diy-caravan/converting-a-vehicle-into-a-motorhome

 

If you ain't got everything, you ain't got a camper. It's still a van.

 

602

[Derek Uzzell]

A GOOGLE-search with "Motorhomes or motor caravans are classed as goods vehicles if they” as the search-term produces the following result

 

https://tinyurl.com/y8s4lu6a

 

The entries include speculation about a scenario where a motorhome carrying ‘junk’ is being driven to a recycling centre to dump the redundant items, but the vehicle’s driver decides on the way to the centre to re-route to a car-boot sale instead to try to sell the items there. Does the motorhome’s speed-limits alter at the moment the driver changes his mind?

 

The statement on the gov.uk website is simplistic and I very much doubt that its implications have ever been tested where UK speed-limit prosecution is concerned. I’m certain that vehicles registered as a “Motor Caravan” in the Private/LGV or PHGV taxation classes are used to" carry goods for exhibiion and sale”, but when the exhibiting/selling is taking place the speed limit issue won’t apply, and when the motorhome is being driven, will anyone be prepared to quibble over whether the stuff on board the motorhome is/was being carried for exhibition or sale?

 

I’m with spirou on this - and the best of luck if anyone wants to explore the speed-limit issue with the DVLA and/or the police.

[spirou]

The only place where things get possibly more complicated are Jadrolinija ferries in Croatia :-D They charge a different rate for the exact same size van depending on its registration as commercial, passenger or MH. Obviously MH is the most expensive one. And there's also a different price if you live on the islands. I've tried arguing but the ticket collectors at the ferry just send me back to the ticket office (better run fast). My dad is quite stubborn (and who wants to argue with an older gentleman when there's a line of cars waiting to board) :D and they let him through on the cheaper ticket several times. Not always though.

 

Oh, he uses the van as his office on nearly every trip they take (his company logo on two sides and all) so based on discussion above, he better not drive it in the UK? >:-)

[W3526602]

<<< Does the motorhome’s speed-limits alter at the moment the driver changes his mind? >>>

 

Hi,

 

Probably OT, but I think I read about this in Police Review.

 

A perp was arrested for "going equiped". He freely admitted that he had left home, intending to break into houses.

 

In court he pleaded Not Guilty. His defence was that , as it was getting late, he had knocked off for the day. He had CEASED his intention to brake into houses.

 

Case dismissed.

 

I think the police just have to prove you were breaking the speed limit ... there is no need to prove that you intended to break the speed limit. But the police may have to prove that you INTENDED to sell the junk in your van.

 

602.