Another newbie question - the move from Diesel

[StuartO]

Ruby(Exsis) - 2018-11-07 5:32 PMTime and Tide wait for no man!If you want to enjoy the pleasures and freedoms of motorhome touring - get on and do it....

I agree, especially for us oldies who haven't really got that many years of retirement available to do motorhoming in.  Our motorhome was bought new (12 years ago) and fortunately it still pleases us, still works so no need to change.  We've looked after it body and mechanics, which helps.

Developments of motorhome design in recent years have been mainly in the direction of more stylish and plush interiors and to some extent more efficient electrical systems, especially lighting, but layouts are layouts and there's been no real innovation as far as I can see.  Hymer's attempt to be radical with the Duomobile (single beds at the front) was radical but doesn't seem to have taken off.

Prices have however continued to climb and climb in real terms so if you are entering the hobby as a newcomer now, with no real choice other than deisel engine and a very expensive motorhome body, you need fairly deep pockets (or a pension fund or equity release you can mobilise) to buy new straight off.  I suppose lots of people are doing this but I would instinctively avoid.

Yet we are told that motorhome sales are booming in UK.

[Guest pelmetman]

stagger321 - 2018-11-07 11:51 AM

 

Hi there.

As per a prev post I am new to this game, and looking for our first largish MH.

As someone who has worked in the motor industry for many years, I have seen the recent shift from fossil fuels to a HEV and BEV in the car industry. In fact a number of manufacturers are stating their intentions to not offer diesel/petrol options some time soon.

In the UK, recently Diesel-gate (and Brexit) have had a huge impact on sales in the car industry. All we currently see for eco-friendly vans and Trucks are coming from people like Elon Musk /Tesla. Nothing much from anyone else. As we know most of the powertrains for the larger vans are coming from people like Fiat, Pug, and Ford.

 

I understand the reliance on Diesel in the Motorhome/Truck sector - all that Torque, and some extra economy over Petrol, buy hey, Electric gives you a boot-full of Torque, and its instant.

 

Obviously Battery technology and range has a lot to do with this, but what are peoples thoughts going forward?

 

I truly believe these next few years are the last hurrah for the infernal (sic) combustion engine, and therefore at this early stage of potential Motorhome ownership, don't wish to invest a large sum of money on a Euro-5 or Euro-6 diesel when tax's, LEZ's and resulting and residual decline will affect my new purchase. Neither do I wish to own anything older and less good for the environment.

 

Thoughts?

 

Speaking as a Luddite :D .......

 

Who currently has a 1990 camper, a 1994 caravan, a 1996 car parked on his pitch in Spain ;-) .........

 

I'd say retro is the way to go B-) ........

 

BTW who do you think has caused the most damage to the planet?..........Those who have kept the same vehicle on the the road for 20 plus years.......

 

OR those that have caused one to be made every 5 minutes 8-) ........

 

Just askin :-| ........

 

 

[Tracker]

stagger321 - 2018-11-07 11:51 AM

I don't wish to invest a large sum of money on a Euro-5 or Euro-6 diesel when tax's, LEZ's and resulting and residual decline will affect my new purchase. Neither do I wish to own anything older and less good for the environment.

Thoughts?

 

These two wishes are not compatible at the moment and given that choice I would put my own finances and travel first and get on and enjoy life whilst I still could and worry about the environment later!

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Tracker - 2018-11-08 4:21 PM

 

stagger321 - 2018-11-07 11:51 AM

I don't wish to invest a large sum of money on a Euro-5 or Euro-6 diesel when tax's, LEZ's and resulting and residual decline will affect my new purchase. Neither do I wish to own anything older and less good for the environment.

Thoughts?

 

These two wishes are not compatible at the moment and given that choice I would put my own finances and travel first and get on and enjoy life whilst I still could and worry about the environment later!

 

The answer is, of course, a horse pulling a canary yellow caravan. All ecological aspirations met (so long as the paint is water based and the pigment non-carcinogenic!), just ask Toad of Toad Hall. Sorted, if a tad slow. :-D

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2018-11-08 5:25 PM

 

Tracker - 2018-11-08 4:21 PM

 

stagger321 - 2018-11-07 11:51 AM

I don't wish to invest a large sum of money on a Euro-5 or Euro-6 diesel when tax's, LEZ's and resulting and residual decline will affect my new purchase. Neither do I wish to own anything older and less good for the environment.

Thoughts?

 

These two wishes are not compatible at the moment and given that choice I would put my own finances and travel first and get on and enjoy life whilst I still could and worry about the environment later!

 

The answer is, of course, a horse pulling a canary yellow caravan. All ecological aspirations met (so long as the paint is water based and the pigment non-carcinogenic!), just ask Toad of Toad Hall. Sorted, if a tad slow. :-D

 

Oh dear Brian........I was expecting a much better answer from you :D ........

 

 

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

In germany the forest guards drive green fuel cell cars on hydrogen. Only water comes out. They tank by credit card on a few hydrogen stations. The car has electric motors. In norway much more, they drive green whole country and sell gas and oil to us. Hydrogen is very light to air and extremely flammable, refer to the german zeppelin balloon. The balloon got fired by the engine burn, but the flame front was above the balloon and they got in panic and dropped off. In car it it is a safe hp tank. Agree whit brian it has great future and can be produced green, and less cable. And torsion bars are back in electric cars. Because of high torque of their motors.

[jjsbc]

When people are charging overnight when there is over supply if every one charges overnight with the takeup of EVs what happens to the over supply then?????

 

Hydrogen power where do I ask do they get the hydrogen from and how ?????

 

If we spend a year of our livesbrushing our teeth just think about how many years we will spend waiting for our EV to charge.A two week holiday in spain becomes a one week holiday and a week charging your vehicle batteries, I'd rather spend the time recharging my batteries

[jjsbc]

P.S. I remember many years ago they were talking removable batteries,drive in swap it drive off ,very easy with todays robotics ,international standards re. batteries and vehicles (just like a battery drill) and it would take about the same time as a diesel fill.Batteries could be charged and monitored by skilled people for maximum life .The only problem is that the UK will have its own standards (got to its the british way) the Euros and the Yanks theirs but it'l never happen

.

 

But I still ask where is all the power coming from???

[Derek Uzzell]

As electricity seems to be the direction in which vehicles are moving for motiive power, this Wikipedia entry may be of interest:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Semi

[malc d]

Derek Uzzell - 2018-11-09 9:13 AM

 

As electricity seems to be the direction in which vehicles are moving for motiive power, this Wikipedia entry may be of interest:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Semi

 

 

 

Very interesting link that Derek.

 

 

We often get info nowadays about the advances in battery technology / electric vehicles - but when it comes to plans for the thousands ( or millions ? ) of charging points that will be required we hear almost nothing.

 

 

My guess is most of us will end up with hybrids.

 

:-|

[pepe63xnotuse]

malc d - 2018-11-09 12:27 PM

 

We often get info nowadays about the advances in battery technology / electric vehicles - but when it comes to plans for the thousands ( or millions ? ) of charging points that will be required we hear almost nothing.

 

 

My guess is most of us will end up with hybrids.

 

:-|

 

Agree.

Never mind the prospect of having enough spare "charging points", it can be neigh on impossible to find an "ordinary" car parking space now...and we've had conventional cars for many decades!

 

The "powers that be" haven't even managed to facilitate full/reliable mobile phone coverage or decent broadband speeds for all yet, so how on earth are they going to fare when it comes to a massive infrastructure project like kitting out the Nation with charging points?

 

The only way it has any chance of working, is if we have a major rethink on how we use (or "expect" to use) our vehicles.

 

(But with public transport being very hit and miss anywhere other than in major towns and cities, I can't see any of us ditching our vehicle dependency any time soon.. :-S )

[Tracker]

The latest trend seems to be to add car re-charge plug in points to lamp posts which sounds a good idea in theory.

 

Meanwhile if you drive a non EHU car and you can't use certain parking bays as they are reserved for plug ins that is not going to help with parking problems for most cars in most towns until the number of plug in cars well exceeds the number of non plug in cars, at which point the same old question recurs - how do you get enough battery power to remove the worry about not being able to get home?

 

I see more efficient plug in hybrids, ordinary hybrids and range extender powered cars as being the best way forward if for no other reason than at least you can still buy petrol and diesel easily and quickly without fuss or frustration and even if more petrol filling stations close you can still carry a gallon of fuel in a can in the boot to get you home.

 

I drove a Toyota Prius (non plug in) last week and it managed 68 mpg on a 30 mile round trip on local roads without making any effort to drive to conserve fuel, and it is a smooth quiet comfortabe and safe car. I am sure as the technology develops and with bigger (more expensive) batteries and regenerative braking a lot moe mpg can yet be squeezed. Not a bad way to reduce emissions?

[Brock]

Interesting article by Barry Norris [Technical Adviser] in the December 2018 MMM magazine.

 

To be brief, Brian talks about the difficulties of introducing the new Real Driving Emissions testing which might come in 2020 for motorhomes. How do you test a vehicle built in two stages? It might be a separate stage is introduced that motorhome manufacturers have to comply with. Brian suggests motorhomes are likely to be PHEVs [Plug in hybrid electric vehicles]; presumably assuming the problems with charging are overcome as he infers.

[Tracker]

The real beauty of a PHEV is that you don't have to plug it is, admittedly it defeats the object if you don't but it also removes range anxiety - as long as the fuel tank is big enough and enough filling stations survive!

 

The infernal combustion engine is far from dead but it's application may well change to reduce the user's dependency on it?

[colin]

I'll just remind people that it's not that long ago when there where no fuel stations and the early drivers would have to hunt out a shop selling cans of fuel. Yes the charging of cars will need careful consideration, but the network is there and needs adjusting to suit.

[pepe63xnotuse]

colin - 2018-11-09 2:44 PM

 

I'll just remind people that it's not that long ago when there where no fuel stations and the early drivers would have to hunt out a shop selling cans of fuel. Yes the charging of cars will need careful consideration, but the network is there and needs adjusting to suit.

 

But "fuel stations" can take just a matter of minutes to use and can usually "refuel" a dozen plus vehicles at a time.

 

Until "they"(whoever "they" are?) can provide charging points at every public car-parking space, in every multi-storey and at every supermarket space etc, I can't see electric-only being viable for the majority of people (young trendy types commuting to their purpose built IT offices and retired old duffers dawdling down to Waitrose a couple of times a week, maybe? (lol) )

[Tracker]

There are other aspects!

 

Like many of our generation, we have good pensions and we don't often do a lot of miles anymore so the savings in fuel costs is not that imortant to us in the grand scheme of things.

 

But on the occasion that we do want to drive 300 miles, spend a fortnight touring and drive home I rate guaranteed convenience on keeping mobile very highly.

 

Can I really be bothered to faff about with power leads and plugs, especially when it's cold dark and wet at home when all I do now is pop into a covered filling station when passing and quickly fill up when it ain't wet or dark! Answer - certainly not!

 

I am happy to think of the environment but I am inclined to think of me first and the environment second, especially when the rest of the world seems hell bent on disregarding environmental issues on a governmental scale. Yet our government, bless them, seems happy to impose environmental taxes on the UK tax paying individual?

[Tracker]

colin - 2018-11-09 2:44 PM

Yes the charging of cars will need careful consideration, but the network is there and needs adjusting to suit.

 

Really? Given that AE have a lot of resouces and know how that the 'ordinary'motorist may find hard to access when most needed that was not their experience -

 

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/hyundai/kona/104813/testing-the-uks-ev-charging-station-network-in-a-hyundai-kona

[colin]

Tracker - 2018-11-09 3:34 PM

 

colin - 2018-11-09 2:44 PM

Yes the charging of cars will need careful consideration, but the network is there and needs adjusting to suit.

 

Really? Given that AE have a lot of resouces and know how that the 'ordinary'motorist may find hard to access when most needed that was not their experience -

 

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/hyundai/kona/104813/testing-the-uks-ev-charging-station-network-in-a-hyundai-kona

 

Yes the network is out there, nearly every street and road in the UK has power lines on or close to it. I could have a point on my drive if I wanted, this would save the drive I have to make (5 miles out my way today) to fill up with fuel. Will some have problems? Yes.

[Archiesgrandad]

I wonder if we might be being a bit parochial? Our "Western" world represents probably not much more than 30% of the World, (that's amateur statistics based on what I imagine, so think about the general principle and not exact figures), and if I were trying to shape the future of the motor industry I might need to consider the needs of the other 70% . They will not have the means of creating the sort of infrastructure as we are talking about for many a long year, if ever, but they too will need motor transport more than ever as they develope and improve the standard of living for their people. Economics will require that motor manufacturers will not find it reasonable to build one system for the minority first world and another for the third world. and most of those third world nations are way behind us in terms of sustainability and ecological improvement, so their governments will not put much priority on spending their precious resources when they have a much more immediate need for school, hospitals etc.

As I said earlier, for the near future we will probably find that the best way forward will be City Cars and Hybrids, hybrids will still work in the third world if all they need is hydro-carbon fuels for the combustion engine

 

AGD

[malc d]

Archiesgrandad - 2018-11-10 12:06 PM

 

 

As I said earlier, for the near future we will probably find that the best way forward will be City Cars and Hybrids, hybrids will still work in the third world if all they need is hydro-carbon fuels for the combustion engine

 

AGD

 

 

Interesting report on the BBC today that tells us that a lot of the hybrid vehicles bought by companies with tax relief have never been charged up. They've always used petrol / diesel.

 

Some cars still have the charging leads unwrapped in the boot.

 

I reckon that when we all have hybrids the tax on fossil fuels will go through the roof to make sure we use the electric option.

 

;-)

[Deneb]

I went to a meeting at the HQ of a large PHEV manufacturer a couple of years ago. They said that a not insignificant number of owners were complaining about high petrol consumption in single figures. When questioned, their daily driving consisted predominantly of motorway commuting at over 55 mph, which meant that the vehicles were being propelled almost constantly on the low capacity petrol engine, and the electric motors hardly ever cut in. Hybrid technology is not (currently) suitable for everybody.

[colin]

An interesting bit I read yesterday, there have been many hybrids sold as fleet cars due to past government subsidies, the average use of fuel in these has been worked out as higher than straight engines with many of them returned to lease companies with the charging leads not even being unwrapped.

[Archiesgrandad]

I fully accept the point about hybrids, most of the ones currently in use will be of the first generation and we can anticipate that technology will already be leaping ahead for the future vehicles, and in any case a lot of those vehicles will not have been bought because the driver really wanted them, but in order to satisfy someone's need to make their ecological credentials look better.

 

As it was explained to me future hybrids will not have engines that can be directly connected to the wheels, but will operate exclusively through the generator and batteries. The engine will operate at a fixed speed which will be set to provide the most efficient charging power for the batteries at the most economical fuel consumption., so effectively all vehicles will be driven by electricity, some, the City Cars being charged at an EHU at home or elsewhere, and Hybrids being charged by the onboard generator which will use some form of liquid fuel to power the engine.. All will have some form of regenerative system to make a contribution to the battery charging, and perhaps solar panels.

 

Perhaps just as importantly drivers will see the benefits of the new technology and will actually want to buy them and will use the new technology to get the the best out of it. We do move on, I can remember the time when my most urgent desire was to get a car with an overhead valve engine, now I wouldn't want one if you were prepared to pay me, well, unless the money was really good, and I recall that when I bought my first car with heated seats my son thought that they were a disgusting perversion, he recently changed his perfectly good car which didn't have heated seats for another because it had heated seats.

 

AGD

[Tracker]

Vauxhall introduced the Ampera (cousin to the Chevrolet Volt) a few years ago but it did not sell enough to carry on and the used values plummeted so they dropped it and you rarely see one about now. Now that really was massive depreciation.

 

I wonder if now would be a better time to try again as BMW seem happy with sales if their i3 range extender which uses a similar power set up?