Don636 Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 Trevor, when you collapse the extending handle down there is a catch that you need to engage but that is not really what I am talking about. It is a bit difficult to explain in words but, once the handle has been collapsed and locked you them slide the cassette into the box. If you look at the box there is a small tab sticking up from the base right at the entrance. When you slide the cassette in a tab on the handle slips over this lip to lock the cassette in place. If you shove the cassette in, the tab on the handle should slip over the lip in the base but sometimes it doesn’t and you need to pull up the locking tab on the handle to make sure it slides over the lip in the base. Hope this makes sense!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Before a C260 cassette is inserted into the cassette-locker it is imperative that the orange end of the cassette’s extendable handle is ‘locked’ correctly back into the cassette The lower section of the orange handle has a protrusion (visible in Photo 1 below that shows the underside of a cassette) and - as Don has emphasised - it is vital that this protrusion enters the cassette-locker's floor correctly to lock the cassette in place. (Photo 2 below shows a properly inserted cassette.) There are on-line comments relating to Thetford C250 or C260 toilets ‘jamming’ and many of these refer to the importance of ensuring that the cassette is inserted fully into the locker. There’s no doubt that, if a cassette is able to move after it has been inserted into the locker, there’s every likelihood that the blade-opening/closing handle on the toilet’s pedestal won’t operate. And, if Trevor has not been ensuring that the cassette is properly ‘locked’ into its locker, this would explain why the people who have examined the toilet have been able to get it to function OK at the time, but Travor subsequently has sporadic in-use problems with the toilet. It’s worth adding (as witzend mentions above) that the mechanism that links the toilet’s blade-operating handle to the orange blade-opening/closing knob on the cassette’s top has a lot of nylon parts in it and won’t tolerate really rough treatment. There should be no need to to operate the handle ‘vigorously’, not to use brute force when inserting the cassette into the locker. (I’m not sure if a C260’s design inhibits the operating handle from moving when there is no cassette in the locker. The operating handle of my C400 toilet still moves when the cassette has been removed from its locker, but the C400’s handle is spring-loaded and automatically returns to its ‘blade closed’ position ready for the cassette to be reinserted. If a C263’s handle is not similarly sprung, I can see why the handle’s movement would be inhibited when there’s no cassette in the locker.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
htrevor Posted January 16, 2019 Author Share Posted January 16, 2019 Don636 - 2019-01-15 8:39 PM Trevor, when you collapse the extending handle down there is a catch that you need to engage but that is not really what I am talking about. It is a bit difficult to explain in words but, once the handle has been collapsed and locked you them slide the cassette into the box. If you look at the box there is a small tab sticking up from the base right at the entrance. When you slide the cassette in a tab on the handle slips over this lip to lock the cassette in place. If you shove the cassette in, the tab on the handle should slip over the lip in the base but sometimes it doesn’t and you need to pull up the locking tab on the handle to make sure it slides over the lip in the base. Hope this makes sense!! Thanks Don I knew what you meant because I have noticed that sometimes it goes under the lip and other times it seems not to, so I leave it but if I leave it and the blade immediately jammed I would relate that to the handle not being located properly but it seems to happen at any time not related to anything that I have done differently. It might be that not being located properly immediately puts pressure on the blade teeth which I get away with for a time but eventually the pressure forces the teeth to jump apart. This seems quite plausible and I am just waiting for it to stop raining to try it , got to get the teeth back somehow first though. Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
htrevor Posted January 16, 2019 Author Share Posted January 16, 2019 Derek Uzzell - 2019-01-16 9:05 AM Before a C260 cassette is inserted into the cassette-locker it is imperative that the orange end of the cassette’s extendable handle is ‘locked’ correctly back into the cassette The lower section of the orange handle has a protrusion (visible in Photo 1 below that shows the underside of a cassette) and - as Don has emphasised - it is vital that this protrusion enters the cassette-locker's floor correctly to lock the cassette in place. (Photo 2 below shows a properly inserted cassette.) There are on-line comments relating to Thetford C250 or C260 toilets ‘jamming’ and many of these refer to the importance of ensuring that the cassette is inserted fully into the locker. There’s no doubt that, if a cassette is able to move after it has been inserted into the locker, there’s every likelihood that the blade-opening/closing handle on the toilet’s pedestal won’t operate. And, if Trevor has not been ensuring that the cassette is properly ‘locked’ into its locker, this would explain why the people who have examined the toilet have been able to get it to function OK at the time, but Travor subsequently has sporadic in-use problems with the toilet. It’s worth adding (as witzend mentions above) that the mechanism that links the toilet’s blade-operating handle to the orange blade-opening/closing knob on the cassette’s top has a lot of nylon parts in it and won’t tolerate really rough treatment. There should be no need to to operate the handle ‘vigorously’, not to use brute force when inserting the cassette into the locker. (I’m not sure if a C260’s design inhibits the operating handle from moving when there is no cassette in the locker. The operating handle of my C400 toilet still moves when the cassette has been removed from its locker, but the C400’s handle is spring-loaded and automatically returns to its ‘blade closed’ position ready for the cassette to be reinserted. If a C263’s handle is not similarly sprung, I can see why the handle’s movement would be inhibited when there’s no cassette in the locker.) Hi Derek Brilliant. Thanks for this and taking time to add the pictures. Please see my latest reply to Don. I am going to try it properly as soon as it stops raining. It does seem a plausible answer but I try to click the handle into position but sometimes I cannot but then it doesn’t seem to have any immediate effect i.e. it might not jam until a few days after, so I do not link that straight away with the blade jamming. Regards Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weldted Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 http://www.thetford.cn/pdf/C260_OEM_IM_0813-V6.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Trevor From what has been said before I’m wary of the idea that your ‘jamming’ problem lies with the cassette’s mechanism. Logically (when the cassette is out of the locker) if the orange blade-opening/closing knob on the cassette’s ‘plate’ (shown in 1st photo below) can be rotated freely through its 90-degree travel and this action opens/closes the cassette’s blade correctly, there’s no real reason to expect things to change for the worse once the cassette has been put back in the locker PROVIDED THAT the cassette has been put in properly and cannot move (say, as the result of vibratiion when a motorhome is being driven). As I said above, the linkage between the toilet’s operating handle is not bomb-proof. For example, the 2nd attached photo shows the nylon toothed ‘saddle’ that connects to and twists the cassette’s blade-opening/closing knob and it should be plain that the saddle could easily become damaged if overly stressed. (It should also be plain that, if the saddle does not centralise correctly when it connects to the orange knob, moving the toilet’s operating handle will be difficult or impossible.) This link is to Thetford repair instructions relevant to the C250 (and C260) toilet and the cassette that’s used. http://www.thetford.pl/serwis/naprawa_toalety/C250.pdf and if you want to familiarise yourself with what’s under the ‘plate’, or ever want to replace the cassette seal, this video-clip shows how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
htrevor Posted January 16, 2019 Author Share Posted January 16, 2019 Hi Derek & John I locked the handle over the lip as you both said. It’s a little tight and unless you make a conscience effort to force the right side over first it will be slightly lopsided. No joy still locked. I then undid the vertical screw on the cog and turned it around 180 degrees. I think that might have me messing around previously. It works. I have opened and closed it about 40 times and it is still working. I am not quite at the stage whereby I run around shouting with my hands in the air yet because I have had many false dawns but it does look as though that might be the solution. The action of the handle though is slightly stiff and stuttery and each action feels like it might happen again. I wonder if it might be an idea to add washing up liquid instead of the additive as I think it was Alan added (sorry I don’t want to go back to check who it was in case I lose this page). If this is my problem solved then it will be great relief but I feel a little thick about not being able to sort it out myself. In my defence though as I said previously it never jammed after I put the emptied cassette back, but a few days later, which remains a mystery to me. If it had I might have realised what was happening. The other thing is, was not obvious to me that the the handle had to be lifted over the lid to lock it as it felt pretty tight in there without locking it and the instructions made no mention of the locking process. Sounds like excuses I know. Anyway for now I would like to thank everybody for their help and time answering especially as it seemed such a trivial problem. This is my second post and I have been amazed at the contributors willing and able to try and solve my problems. Many, many thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
htrevor Posted January 16, 2019 Author Share Posted January 16, 2019 Derek Uzzell - 2019-01-16 12:04 PM Trevor From what has been said before I’m wary of the idea that your ‘jamming’ problem lies with the cassette’s mechanism. Logically (when the cassette is out of the locker) if the orange blade-opening/closing knob on the cassette’s ‘plate’ (shown in 1st photo below) can be rotated freely through its 90-degree travel and this action opens/closes the cassette’s blade correctly, there’s no real reason to expect things to change for the worse once the cassette has been put back in the locker PROVIDED THAT the cassette has been put in properly and cannot move (say, as the result of vibratiion when a motorhome is being driven). As I said above, the linkage between the toilet’s operating handle is not bomb-proof. For example, the 2nd attached photo shows the nylon toothed ‘saddle’ that connects to and twists the cassette’s blade-opening/closing knob and it should be plain that the saddle could easily become damaged if overly stressed. (It should also be plain that, if the saddle does not centralise correctly when it connects to the orange knob, moving the toilet’s operating handle will be difficult or impossible.) This link is to Thetford repair instructions relevant to the C250 (and C260) toilet and the cassette that’s used. http://www.thetford.pl/serwis/naprawa_toalety/C250.pdf and if you want to familiarise yourself with what’s under the ‘plate’, or ever want to replace the cassette seal, this video-clip shows how. Great. Thanks Derek. I have just posted,probably whilst you were posting this,that things were working now. The mystery to me though was why did it it work initially whilst it was unlocked and then only jam a couple of days later? Well I think you have maybe answered that in that travelling with the cassette unlocked it slowly works away from the optimum position until eventually the cogs slip and jam? Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
htrevor Posted January 16, 2019 Author Share Posted January 16, 2019 htrevor - 2019-01-16 3:48 PM Derek Uzzell - 2019-01-16 12:04 PM Trevor From what has been said before I’m wary of the idea that your ‘jamming’ problem lies with the cassette’s mechanism. Logically (when the cassette is out of the locker) if the orange blade-opening/closing knob on the cassette’s ‘plate’ (shown in 1st photo below) can be rotated freely through its 90-degree travel and this action opens/closes the cassette’s blade correctly, there’s no real reason to expect things to change for the worse once the cassette has been put back in the locker PROVIDED THAT the cassette has been put in properly and cannot move (say, as the result of vibratiion when a motorhome is being driven). As I said above, the linkage between the toilet’s operating handle is not bomb-proof. For example, the 2nd attached photo shows the nylon toothed ‘saddle’ that connects to and twists the cassette’s blade-opening/closing knob and it should be plain that the saddle could easily become damaged if overly stressed. (It should also be plain that, if the saddle does not centralise correctly when it connects to the orange knob, moving the toilet’s operating handle will be difficult or impossible.) This link is to Thetford repair instructions relevant to the C250 (and C260) toilet and the cassette that’s used. http://www.thetford.pl/serwis/naprawa_toalety/C250.pdf and if you want to familiarise yourself with what’s under the ‘plate’, or ever want to replace the cassette seal, this video-clip shows how. Great. Thanks Derek. I have just posted,probably whilst you were posting this,that things were working now. The mystery to me though was why did it it work initially whilst it was unlocked and then only jam a couple of days later? Well I think you have maybe answered that in that travelling with the cassette unlocked it slowly works away from the optimum position until eventually the cogs slip and jam? Trevor Ps. Thanks also Derek for the links. I am sure that they will be very useful. Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Where exactly are these mysterious “cogs”? On my motorhome’s Thetford C400 toilet the mechanism that links the operating handle to the blade-opening/closing knob on the cassette’s circular ‘plate’ is hidden above the roof of the cassette-locker, so not easily accessible to a leisure-vehicle owner. If you are referring to the toothed ’saddle’ in my photo above and, if on a C260 toilet this is easily accessed and you’ve previously DIY-fiddled-about with this part and now altered its postion by 180 degrees and this has cured the ‘jamming’, it’s hardly surprising that the mechanism was not functioning properly before. In fact, I’d be quite surprised that the mechanism would work at all if the saddle had been incorrectly positioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Trevor Are the ‘cogs’ the “Gear wheel” and “Gear ring” shown in the attached photo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
htrevor Posted January 17, 2019 Author Share Posted January 17, 2019 Derek Uzzell - 2019-01-16 5:56 PM Trevor Are the ‘cogs’ the “Gear wheel” and “Gear ring” shown in the attached photo? Derek The “cogs” are indeed the “gear wheel” as shown in your photo. Please see my post 3.36 16 Jan “Hi Derek & John”. Actually it should be headed “Hi Derek, Don & Alan”, apologies Don & Alan. As it says the toilet is working, touch wood, I do now believe the problem might be solved. I “fiddled” around with the gear wheel and inadvertently turned it around because it had stopped working at that stage. It wasn’t the cause of it not working. Many thanks for all your help Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
htrevor Posted January 17, 2019 Author Share Posted January 17, 2019 Hi Don & Alan Please see my post 3.36 16 Jan headed “Hi Derek & John”. It should have been headed “Hi Derek, Don & Alan”, sorry. The posts were getting a bit mixed up at that time and I got the names wrong but hopefully you will see this and will look back at that post. Many thanks again though for all your help Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 Good Lord.Claim a new one from Thetford. Not fit for purpose. Via your dealer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 Claim a new one from thetford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 The following link carries exploded-view drawings and parts listings for a Thetford C-263S toilet and its waste-holding cassette. https://www.leisurespares.co.uk/files/ww/c263s.pdf Once the cassette has been inserted in the cassette-locker, opening and closing the cassette’s ‘blade’ involves just three parts within the toilet’s pedestal. (These parts are shown in the photos attached below). There’s an external plastic Handle (Photo 1), a semi-circular nylon part that carries teeth and referred to as a “Ring blade mechanism" (Photo 2) and another nylon toothed part (Photos 3 and 4) referred to as a “Saddle” as its two underside protrusions sit on top of the cassette’s orange blade-opener (Part 1 in the waste holding tank's parts listing) like a jockey on a horse. The Handle attaches to the ‘arm’ sticking out from the Ring blade mechanism and the teeth on the Saddle engage in the Ring blade mechanism’s teeth. When the Handle is moved from left to right on the toilet’s pedestal, the Saddle is rotated and, in turn, rotates the cassette’s orange blade-opener that causes parts inside the cassette to open the cassette’s blade. And when the Handle is moved back from right to left, the reverse happens and the cassette’s blade is closed. I don’t know how much potential there is to wrongly install the Handle, Ring blade mechanism and Saddle components and still end up with the blade opening/closing system functioning after a fashion, but if a C-263 toilet’s basic working principles are understood, there should be no difficulty fitting the three parts together correctly. Where the C-260 (and C-250) toilets seem to differ from other Thetford designs is that there’s no positive ‘mechanical latch’ at the front of the cassette-locker’s floor to confirm that the cassette has been fully inserted and to lock the cassette securely in place so that it cannot move subsequently. Where opening/closing the cassette’s blade is concerned, it’s absolutely critical that the Saddle remains ‘centred’ over the cassette’s orange blade-opener. If the cassette moves even slightly, so that Saddle and blade-opener are not accurately centred, then opening or closing the cassette’s blade will become difficult, with extra effort being needed to move the Handle or operation of the Handle feeling very stiff. And if the cassette moves further, so that Saddle and orange blade-opener are significantly non-centred, then opening or closing the cassette’s blade will become impossible. This appears to be what Trevor was experiencing (Opening /cllosing the blade is OK for a while, then operation becomes stiff, then ‘jamming’ occurs) so it’s quite likely that there is nothing actually wrong with his Westfalia’s toilet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
htrevor Posted January 20, 2019 Author Share Posted January 20, 2019 Derek Uzzell - 2019-01-18 6:46 PM The following link carries exploded-view drawings and parts listings for a Thetford C-263S toilet and its waste-holding cassette. https://www.leisurespares.co.uk/files/ww/c263s.pdf Once the cassette has been inserted in the cassette-locker, opening and closing the cassette’s ‘blade’ involves just three parts within the toilet’s pedestal. (These parts are shown in the photos attached below). There’s an external plastic Handle (Photo 1), a semi-circular nylon part that carries teeth and referred to as a “Ring blade mechanism" (Photo 2) and another nylon toothed part (Photos 3 and 4) referred to as a “Saddle” as its two underside protrusions sit on top of the cassette’s orange blade-opener (Part 1 in the waste holding tank's parts listing) like a jockey on a horse. The Handle attaches to the ‘arm’ sticking out from the Ring blade mechanism and the teeth on the Saddle engage in the Ring blade mechanism’s teeth. When the Handle is moved from left to right on the toilet’s pedestal, the Saddle is rotated and, in turn, rotates the cassette’s orange blade-opener that causes parts inside the cassette to open the cassette’s blade. And when the Handle is moved back from right to left, the reverse happens and the cassette’s blade is closed. I don’t know how much potential there is to wrongly install the Handle, Ring blade mechanism and Saddle components and still end up with the blade opening/closing system functioning after a fashion, but if a C-263 toilet’s basic working principles are understood, there should be no difficulty fitting the three parts together correctly. Where the C-260 (and C-250) toilets seem to differ from other Thetford designs is that there’s no positive ‘mechanical latch’ at the front of the cassette-locker’s floor to confirm that the cassette has been fully inserted and to lock the cassette securely in place so that it cannot move subsequently. Where opening/closing the cassette’s blade is concerned, it’s absolutely critical that the Saddle remains ‘centred’ over the cassette’s orange blade-opener. If the cassette moves even slightly, so that Saddle and blade-opener are not accurately centred, then opening or closing the cassette’s blade will become difficult, with extra effort being needed to move the Handle or operation of the Handle feeling very stiff. And if the cassette moves further, so that Saddle and orange blade-opener are significantly non-centred, then opening or closing the cassette’s blade will become impossible. This appears to be what Trevor was experiencing (Opening /cllosing the blade is OK for a while, then operation becomes stiff, then ‘jamming’ occurs) so it’s quite likely that there is nothing actually wrong with his Westfalia’s toilet. Thanks Derek. I agree with you I don’t think now that the toilet is faulty. I have concentrated on locking the handle of the cassette over the lip so that there is no movement as yourself, Don and Alan suggested.The toilet has been working fine for some time now and the opening/closing is much smoother now. I feel a little sheepish that there was a such a simple answerbut I was never made aware by the 3 service people or the manual (which did not even mention anything about locking)that locking the cassette was so important for everything to work smoothly. If you put the cassette in without making sure the handle located over the lip it felt as though it was firmly in and the toilet worked for a few days before jamming. If it jammed straight away I might have linked that with the insertion of the cassette but all that you said above is probably correct, the action of opening/closing cassette or even driving the vehicle ,slowly changed the position of the wheel location until it finally jammed. So good news for now. Many thanks Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 If the cassette moves out of his end limit position, than the limit switch mechanical or a reed contact Stops the flush pump. I have also a problem on my new where the pull out handle stays not in place. Sad that there is not a back up from thetford. Do not leave this for granted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 My Rapido has a Thetford C-403L ‘bench’ toilet. This model’s cassette has a positive-action ‘latch’ (separate from the handle as shown in attached photo) that engages with an audible ’snap’ behind protrusions on the cassette-locker’s floor. Once the latch has been properly engaged the cassette cannot move. (The pull-along handle of my Rapido’s cassette would also not lock firmly in place when retracted but, as I’m not enamoured by the idea of dragging a cassette along on its wheels, I’ve glued it so that it cannot come loose.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
htrevor Posted January 21, 2019 Author Share Posted January 21, 2019 monique.hubrechts@gm - 2019-01-20 2:45 PM If the cassette moves out of his end limit position, than the limit switch mechanical or a reed contact Stops the flush pump. I have also a problem on my new where the pull out handle stays not in place. Sad that there is not a back up from thetford. Do not leave this for granted. Thanks Monique I haven’t been aware of the flush pump not operating when the cassette moves slightly out of position, if that is what you are saying. It jams suddenly a few days after the cassette has been put back and I do not even think about using the pump whilst it is jammed, obviously. Everything is working fine at the moment though. I really make sure I lift the handle over the lip with more pressure on the right side to enable it to lock into position. The blade action is much smoother now than it was which is probably an indication of everything being in place now. So hopefully the problem is solved. I agree with you that the Thetford do not say anything about the locking of the handle. I see that Derek on the next post says that he has resorted to glueing his handle to make sure it stays in place, which might help you and maybe myself eventually. But really we should not have to resort to this on a new toilet. Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
htrevor Posted January 21, 2019 Author Share Posted January 21, 2019 Derek Uzzell - 2019-01-20 6:15 PM My Rapido has a Thetford C-403L ‘bench’ toilet. This model’s cassette has a positive-action ‘latch’ (separate from the handle as shown in attached photo) that engages with an audible ’snap’ behind protrusions on the cassette-locker’s floor. Once the latch has been properly engaged the cassette cannot move. (The pull-along handle of my Rapido’s cassette would also not lock firmly in place when retracted but, as I’m not enamoured by the idea of dragging a cassette along on its wheels, I’ve glued it so that it cannot come loose.) Thanks Derek See my reply to Monique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naebother Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Seem to remember a post about cassette blades jammimg at altitude, this was caused by pressure in the cassette being higher than outside. If it happens a few days after use it may be a build up of pressure in the cassette. Just guessing, but worth a thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
htrevor Posted January 21, 2019 Author Share Posted January 21, 2019 Naebother - 2019-01-21 1:14 PM Seem to remember a post about cassette blades jammimg at altitude, this was caused by pressure in the cassette being higher than outside. If it happens a few days after use it may be a build up of pressure in the cassette. Just guessing, but worth a thought Thanks Naebother Not at altitude yet but will definitely bare it in mind when I do. Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 The wheels on the casette is like you go shopping whit luggage. About 20 kg. Thetford do not like full cassette. Up to 2/3.. So before you drive they should be empty all the time. There is coming an end to this in 2020. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 monique.hubrechts@gm - 2019-01-21 4:26 PM ...There is coming an end to this in 2020. Monique, What is coming to an end in 2020? Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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