Fiat Ducato Reliability and Ride Quality

[TheEscapist]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-03-11 2:58 PM

 

I’m guessing Paul is aware of this, but the current (April 2019) issue of MMM magazine includes a review of the Carthago Liner-For-Two model, with the test-vehicle having a similar specification to Paul’s.

 

As is commonplace nowadays, the review focuses much more on the conversion rather than how the vehicle drives, though there are comments on the ComfortMatic transmission and on the ride quality. Although it’s mentioned that the test-vehicle had air suspension, it’s not clear whether this was just on the rear axle (which I suspect was the case) or on front and rear axles.

 

Can someone please scan and upload the review please. I’m in Spain so can’t buy the magazine or is it online?

 

Mine is not built yet so not in the review.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Keithl]

TheEscapist - 2019-03-11 8:22 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2019-03-11 2:58 PM

 

I’m guessing Paul is aware of this, but the current (April 2019) issue of MMM magazine includes a review of the Carthago Liner-For-Two model, with the test-vehicle having a similar specification to Paul’s.

 

As is commonplace nowadays, the review focuses much more on the conversion rather than how the vehicle drives, though there are comments on the ComfortMatic transmission and on the ride quality. Although it’s mentioned that the test-vehicle had air suspension, it’s not clear whether this was just on the rear axle (which I suspect was the case) or on front and rear axles.

 

Can someone please scan and upload the review please. I’m in Spain so can’t buy the magazine or is it online?

 

Mine is not built yet so not in the review.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

Paul,

 

Warner's may frown on anyone posting a copy of the review on their forum but you can get a Digital subscription on offer at the moment...

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/MMM-Digital-Offer-3-issues-for-5-/51549/

 

Keith.

[colin]

Is there much difference to this one?

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/reviews/motorhomes/details/motorhome-review-carthago-liner-for-two-53-motorhome/972672

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Paul about your recent purchase of a Carthago liner on fiat- Al-Ko chassis. I suggest but maybe too late that you have air suspension at least on the rear. And AL- Ko HY-4 Hydraulic feets.

[TheEscapist]

monique.hubrechts@gm - 2019-03-12 4:11 PM

 

Paul about your recent purchase of a Carthago liner on fiat- Al-Ko chassis. I suggest but maybe too late that you have air suspension at least on the rear. And AL- Ko HY-4 Hydraulic feets.

 

It has air on the rear as mentioned above. Not sure what the hydraulic feet are but it has the feet to put down when standing to stop sway.

[crocs]

Paul

 

If I were you I’d stop worrying and just wait until you take delivery and enjoy it. I have a 4.25 ton Ducato MH with a Comfortmatic and find that its ride is very acceptable bearing in mind that it’s a van chassis. Like you, my daily driver is a Range Rover and it doesn’t compare but, then again, neither does my 1964 two-stroke Saab. Each is different and does it’s job on its own terms.

 

Relax.

[TheEscapist]

crocs - 2019-03-12 9:55 PM

 

Paul

 

If I were you I’d stop worrying and just wait until you take delivery and enjoy it. I have a 4.25 ton Ducato MH with a Comfortmatic and find that its ride is very acceptable bearing in mind that it’s a van chassis. Like you, my daily driver is a Range Rover and it doesn’t compare but, then again, neither does my 1964 two-stroke Saab. Each is different and does it’s job on its own terms.

 

Relax.

 

Hi Robert

 

Thanks. I've never been worrying. What's tp worry about when you're buying lovely vehicles! I'm just asking people's experience and advice so I can have the best options on the vehicle.

 

I'm decided now to try the vehicle for a while on the current setting the consider a Koni or similar upgrade if it's too harsh.

 

Best wishes

 

Paul

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

TheEscapist - 2019-03-12 6:59 PM

 

monique.hubrechts@gm - 2019-03-12 4:11 PM

 

Paul about your recent purchase of a Carthago liner on fiat- Al-Ko chassis. I suggest but maybe too late that you have air suspension at least on the rear. And AL- Ko HY-4 Hydraulic feets.

 

It has air on the rear as mentioned above. Not sure what the hydraulic feet are but it has the feet to put down when standing to stop sway.

 

The “hydraulic feets” refers to Article no. 331341 AL-KO HY4 hydraulic supporting jack system with automatic levelling front and back (available from 12/2018) on Page 72 of this document

 

https://www.carthago.com/fileadmin/user_upload/download/2019/EN_PL_Integriert_2019_1.pdf

 

Carthago prices the HY4 option at £6145 and it adds 70kg weight to the motorhome. Further details are here

 

http://www.alko-tech.com/uk/hydraulic-steady-legs-motorhomes

 

What your Carthago will be coming with are manually-operated "Crank rear steadies to prevent swaying in standing position” that apparently are part of the £6035 Super Package for the Liner-For-Two model.

 

 

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Paul i quote some gained AL-KO experience for 4 years. The best chassis on the market. Air on the rear is called X2. But you can not level your motorhome. IF you have two axles on the rear it gives perfect load sharing and is mandatory in Australia. I left The discussion out of x4 or x2.. That kind of a liner should have auto leveling. But stop sway feets are welcome. However prone to attack be cause of of low GC. Because you have a low frame chassis which sits 22 cm lower than a fiat ducato motor home chassis. Since you have air on the rear you have a CA- axle maintenance- free. I suggest to change the fiat front struts in time. By alko ACS struts or x4 feets. And HY-4 feets.

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-03-13 8:43 AM

 

TheEscapist - 2019-03-12 6:59 PM

 

monique.hubrechts@gm - 2019-03-12 4:11 PM

 

Paul about your recent purchase of a Carthago liner on fiat- Al-Ko chassis. I suggest but maybe too late that you have air suspension at least on the rear. And AL- Ko HY-4 Hydraulic feets.

 

It has air on the rear as mentioned above. Not sure what the hydraulic feet are but it has the feet to put down when standing to stop sway.

 

The “hydraulic feets” refers to Article no. 331341 AL-KO HY4 hydraulic supporting jack system with automatic levelling front and back (available from 12/2018) on Page 72 of this document

 

https://www.carthago.com/fileadmin/user_upload/download/2019/EN_PL_Integriert_2019_1.pdf

 

Carthago prices the HY4 option at £6145 and it adds 70kg weight to the motorhome. Further details are here

 

http://www.alko-tech.com/uk/hydraulic-steady-legs-motorhomes

 

What your Carthago will be coming with are manually-operated "Crank rear steadies to prevent swaying in standing position” that apparently are part of the £6035 Super Package for the Liner-For-Two model.

Paul may find it preferable to upgrade his specification (if that option is still open to him) by substituting AlKo Air Premium X4 for the X2 already included in his spec for the van. Additional cost apparently £4,620, which I would think would be substantially cheaper than retro-fitting.

 

This ads automatic levelling as well as full air at the front, ride height adjustment at low speeds (possibly useful for ferry ramps), and automatic levelling when parked. This would avoid the need to add the steady legs for levelling - though it might still leave the van a little prone to sway under live occupation loads.

 

My reservation is over servicing. Is any required, and if so who would do it? I imagine your average Fiat Professional garage wouldn't go near the AlKo suspension bits. Carthago dealer?

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Brian some dealers like mine will fit hydraulic feets on Iveco - N+ B liners. It has nothing to do whit suspension. If you attack suspension retro you should be well outlined in equipment. And Testing. About X4 i now every part in detail. The level sensors are very scaring. And the bellows are just above the tyre.

[TheEscapist]

Brian Kirby - 2019-03-13 6:03 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2019-03-13 8:43 AM

 

TheEscapist - 2019-03-12 6:59 PM

 

monique.hubrechts@gm - 2019-03-12 4:11 PM

 

Paul about your recent purchase of a Carthago liner on fiat- Al-Ko chassis. I suggest but maybe too late that you have air suspension at least on the rear. And AL- Ko HY-4 Hydraulic feets.

 

It has air on the rear as mentioned above. Not sure what the hydraulic feet are but it has the feet to put down when standing to stop sway.

 

The “hydraulic feets” refers to Article no. 331341 AL-KO HY4 hydraulic supporting jack system with automatic levelling front and back (available from 12/2018) on Page 72 of this document

 

https://www.carthago.com/fileadmin/user_upload/download/2019/EN_PL_Integriert_2019_1.pdf

 

Carthago prices the HY4 option at £6145 and it adds 70kg weight to the motorhome. Further details are here

 

http://www.alko-tech.com/uk/hydraulic-steady-legs-motorhomes

 

What your Carthago will be coming with are manually-operated "Crank rear steadies to prevent swaying in standing position” that apparently are part of the £6035 Super Package for the Liner-For-Two model.

Paul may find it preferable to upgrade his specification (if that option is still open to him) by substituting AlKo Air Premium X4 for the X2 already included in his spec for the van. Additional cost apparently £4,620, which I would think would be substantially cheaper than retro-fitting.

 

This ads automatic levelling as well as full air at the front, ride height adjustment at low speeds (possibly useful for ferry ramps), and automatic levelling when parked. This would avoid the need to add the steady legs for levelling - though it might still leave the van a little prone to sway under live occupation loads.

 

My reservation is over servicing. Is any required, and if so who would do it? I imagine your average Fiat Professional garage wouldn't go near the AlKo suspension bits. Carthago dealer?

 

Hi Brian

 

Too late to change...

 

Is it really a big deal when arriving at a site for the night having to level and steady the motorhome?

 

I assumed, maybe wrongly, that the manufacturer had thought of that on a motorhome of my size and price and all I'd need to do is park and then lower, albeit manually, the rear support legs.

 

What I've subsequently been told by the dealer is I need to travel with a supply of wood to level the motorhome each time.

 

I find that hard to believe but please do enlighten me.

 

Thanks

 

Paul

 

 

 

 

[Laurence]

TheEscapist - 2019-03-13 6:54 PM

 

Is it really a big deal when arriving at a site for the night having to level and steady the motorhome?

 

I assumed, maybe wrongly, that the manufacturer had thought of that on a motorhome of my size and price and all I'd need to do is park and then lower, albeit manually, the rear support legs.

 

What I've subsequently been told by the dealer is I need to travel with a supply of wood to level the motorhome each time.

 

I find that hard to believe but please do enlighten me.

 

Thanks

 

Paul

 

 

Well, this leads into the other thread you have started asking about E&P self levelling.

 

Most people generally carry around some wood or some plastic levellers. With previous motorhomes I had a plastic system, but with the E&P now I don't need them. It depends where you go and the sites you use. In the UK most sites are pretty level, and quite spacious. Abroad, it is often very different, and you will find sites pretty packed in, and often on uneven ground. I have frequently had to lift 3 wheels to varying heights. If you are off-grid, as you have mentioned your intentions to do this, you may find the ground even more uneven - unless it is a car park or tarmac.

 

Some people don't bother about levelling, but it is generally thought that fridges are more efficient if properly level. The other aspect is the beds. If your bed is north-south and you don't mind being head or feet down, then perhaps you won't care. Our beds are east-west, so if we are not level we roll sideways and it can be uncomfortable, which is why it is perhaps more important to us.

 

The short answer is that you perhaps might need to carry some form of levelling, and certainly some wood to put under the rear steadies to spread the load, but trial and error, and some experience gained over a few months, with show you what you need.

 

Hope this helps,

 

 

[BruceM]

TheEscapist - 2019-03-13 6:54 PM

 

Is it really a big deal when arriving at a site for the night having to level and steady the motorhome?

 

I assumed, maybe wrongly, that the manufacturer had thought of that on a motorhome of my size and price and all I'd need to do is park and then lower, albeit manually, the rear support legs.

 

What I've subsequently been told by the dealer is I need to travel with a supply of wood to level the motorhome each time.

 

I find that hard to believe but please do enlighten me.

 

 

The habitation areas of some vans don’t sit level whilst on level ground (often tilting forward slightly) and many sites are not level.

 

We don’t mind a bit of a tilt, we are camping after all, but if it’s too great then a pair of levelling ramps is a simple way to sort things out; something like this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-of-Milenco-Triple-Levellers-Levelling-Ramps-for-Caravan-Motorhome-Bag1/122625158325?epid=14023929874&hash=item1c8d076cb5:g:JYMAAOSwSCNahY7i&frcectupt=true .

If you’re running an absorption fridge then generally operating it off level beyond 6 degrees will shorten its life (look up how absorption fridges work to see why) so we’ll generally use the ramps to provide some levelling in most locations now. It’s quick to do and not rocket science.

 

[Brian Kirby]

TheEscapist - 2019-03-13 6:54 PM.....................….

Hi Brian

Too late to change...

Is it really a big deal when arriving at a site for the night having to level and steady the motorhome?

I assumed, maybe wrongly, that the manufacturer had thought of that on a motorhome of my size and price and all I'd need to do is park and then lower, albeit manually, the rear support legs.

What I've subsequently been told by the dealer is I need to travel with a supply of wood to level the motorhome each time.

I find that hard to believe but please do enlighten me.

Thanks

Paul

Hi Paul

Oh well; then you are where you are.

 

Is levelling a problem? In truth, not often, in my experience, as ground is seldom level, and most vans run a little nose down, so by taking advantage of both it is usually sufficient to shuffle back and forth, and sometimes left and right, to find the right serendipitous combination for tolerable comfort.

 

However, I travel with two plastic ramps, just in case. It is worth remembering that with a long van it is almost impossible to level fore and aft with ramps etc. because the wheelbase is so long, but it is relatively easy to level crosswise because the lift given by the ramp is a munch greater proportion of the vehicle's track width. We do not aim at perfection, just at something that leaves the fridge door more or less where it was parked when fishing inside! :-)

 

You will probably benefit from carrying a couple of pieces of stout ply to put under the steadies on soft ground, as with the weight of your van they will tend to dig in. However, do bear in mind that, unless specifically stated to be such, these steadies are only that, and neither they, nor their mountings, are designed as a means of jacking the van level. If it is not standing level, first use the ground and the ramps, and then use the steadies to just stabilise it.

 

One van came with them, and we hardly ever used them, as we did not find the sway we induced when in the van unsettled either of us. Having said that, I appreciate that some people are especially sensitive to this and find any detectable movement unsettling.

[TheEscapist]

Is there a downside to adding the E&P levelling beyond the cost and slight weight - I think only 30kgs total?

 

I think it was mentioned above they might reduce ground clearance on an already low AL-KO chassis or get in the way of something?

 

It also sounds like I will need four short planks of wood in any case for soft ground.

 

Paul

[Laurence]

TheEscapist - 2019-03-13 10:26 PM

 

Is there a downside to adding the E&P levelling beyond the cost and slight weight - I think only 30kgs total?

 

I think it was mentioned above they might reduce ground clearance on an already low AL-KO chassis or get in the way of something?

 

It also sounds like I will need four short planks of wood in any case for soft ground.

 

Paul

 

I think the additional weight is nearer 50kg. They don't interfere with ground clearance at all as they sit close to the axles and there are different designs of jack that they use to reflect the clearance required. However, you should discuss this with an E&P specialist for the exact details for your vehicle. You will not need to carry wood for the self-levelling jacks as they come with spreaders. You only need wood for the rear steadies when you put them down as they are unlikely to have a spreader.

 

Best plan is to use the vehicle; see whether levelling is frequently necessary; how difficult it is to level; and whether it is something you want to automate. Make sure you carry a spirit level!

 

I mentioned before about how you intend to use the vehicle. We downsized to a 6m A Class so that we could use it every day on trips if necessary. We often do this, and get back to the site in the dark. That's when self-levelling is brilliant. Park - Push a button - Done.

[davidmac]

Hi a breakfast bowl with half an inch of water in it stood on the table or worktop makes a good enough levelling device

Regards David

[BruceM]

TheEscapist - 2019-03-13 10:26 PM

 

It also sounds like I will need four short planks of wood in any case for soft ground.

 

Paul

 

On slightly soft ground, the issue is not so much driving on to it, but once stationary the weight of the heavy van transferred onto the relatively thin profile of the tyres will cause them to sink into the ground over time. So to spread the weight, rather than carry planks of wood we carry grip mats which we put under the front drive wheels if they’re not up on the levellers (which of course spread the weight just as well). For example

 

https://tinyurl.com/yxfkzjjm

 

We use the orange fold up ones. Importantly, in my opinion, they stack away neatly, add little weight and don’t break the bank.

 

We do however carry one lump of wood to put under the jack in case we have to change a wheel – but that’s another subject.

 

Incidentally, if your wooden plank comment actually relates to use of the stabalisers; we’ve never used the stabilisers. Ours is a heavy van with superbly firm suspension so moving around seems to produce very little movement.

[BruceM]

davidmac - 2019-03-14 9:48 AM

 

Hi a breakfast bowl with half an inch of water in it stood on the table or worktop makes a good enough levelling device

Regards David

 

Great minds etc, we check to see if the (rear) kitchen sink drains completely. If it does then we're level enough.

[Derek Uzzell]

TheEscapist - 2019-03-13 10:26 PM

 

...It also sounds like I will need four short planks of wood in any case for soft ground.

 

Paul

 

I carry four Milenco grip mats

 

http://www.milenco.com/products/safety/grip-mats#details

 

but these aren’t rigid (like planks of wood) and, if used on soft ground, will deform. Having learnt the hard way about getting bogged down at a campsite, nowadays if there’s the least likelihood of this happening I put the grip mats under the wheels and make sure that I can drive off them on to a firm surface as straightforwardly as possible. There’s no doubt that an over-4-tonnes front-wheel-drive motorhome fitted with camping-car tyres will be vulnerable to getting stuck if parked on, or driven on to, a soft surface, so it makes sense to have some means of minimising the chance of this occurring.

 

Regarding ‘levelling’, as Paul’s Carthago will have the capability to raise or lower its rear end, that should be adequate in many cases. As Laurence has said

 

"Best plan is to use the vehicle; see whether levelling is frequently necessary; how difficult it is to level; and whether it is something you want to automate...”

 

There are several companies offering motorhome-suitable non-manual levelling systems - AL-KO, Amplo, A&P Hydraulics, MCK Sawiko, Lavi, etc. but none of those systems is cheap or lightweight. I don’t know if it would be practicable to ‘retro-convert’ the AL-KO X2 system that Paul’s motorhome will have into a full-house X4 system, but that would allow levelling without having ‘feet’.

 

It also needs mentioning that significantly modifying the as-delivered specification of Paul’s Carthago could impact on the vehicle’s warranty.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Please be aware that Al-KO X4 can only level what the airbags can do. To combine whit Hy-4 you can do much more and stay original. The ideal combination. They work together in software. I do not understand Why. But the adria liner sonic supreme offers only X2 as an option. Maybe the sea sick effect. The ideal parking is 3 degrees max in width and length off water pass. Check whit iPhone app. However 5cm change in GC is a lot in chassis terms. There is a huge weight difference and less oil pipes and manifolds between Hy-4 and EP. However AL-KO bought them and married again whit VB suspension. Who makes the same thing. And than you have Goldsmiths also active in the UK.Drive whit what it is for now and be happy.

[TheEscapist]

Thanks everyone for your kind advice.

 

Update: based on all your kind advice, I’m buying the self levelling, the Truma aircon, 3 gel leisure batteries, the Hyundai generator mounted underneath and as many solar panels as will fit plus 4G/wifi kit and tyre pressure monitor (very surprised that isn’t standard on a heavy vehicle!) plus I’m adding awning and then it’s down to details - fitted sheet, cutlery, crockery etc.

 

Good to see I’ve bought a winner...

 

https://carthago-presseportal.de/en/press-articles/presseartikel-details/news/carthago-receives-the-european-innovation-award/?tx_news_pi1%5Bcontroller%5D=News&tx_news_pi1%5Baction%5D=detail&cHash=9c3a4c1862bf579133c214d7261a0584

 

Best wishes

 

Paul

[TheEscapist]

TheEscapist - 2019-03-16 12:12 AM

 

Thanks everyone for your kind advice.

 

Update: based on all your kind advice, I’m buying the self levelling, the Truma aircon, 3 gel leisure batteries, the Hyundai generator mounted underneath and as many solar panels as will fit plus 4G/wifi kit and tyre pressure monitor (very surprised that isn’t standard on a heavy vehicle!) plus I’m adding awning and then it’s down to details - fitted sheet, cutlery, crockery etc.

 

Good to see I’ve bought a winner...

 

https://carthago-presseportal.de/en/press-articles/presseartikel-details/news/carthago-receives-the-european-innovation-award/?tx_news_pi1%5Bcontroller%5D=News&tx_news_pi1%5Baction%5D=detail&cHash=9c3a4c1862bf579133c214d7261a0584

 

Best wishes

 

Paul

 

I meant to ask. The only detail I haven’t agreed on is the make of solar panel.

 

I know I need monocrystalline but can anyone recommend the absolute best for battery charging and reliability?

 

Sizes to be determined once the van arrives next week at Chelston. I’m after the best make.

 

Thanks

 

Paul

[BruceM]

TheEscapist - 2019-03-15 11:25 PM

 

I meant to ask. The only detail I haven’t agreed on is the make of solar panel.

 

I know I need monocrystalline but can anyone recommend the absolute best for battery charging and reliability?

 

Sizes to be determined once the van arrives next week at Chelston. I’m after the best make.

 

Thanks

 

Paul

 

Solar is a big subject so you may be better off starting a separate thread.

 

That said, I went through a similar journey a year or so ago, the threads it produced are worth perusing if you’ve not seen them.

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/100W-Monocrystalline-Solar-Panels-the-same-regardless-of-cost-/47283/

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Solar-Panel-Power/47274/

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Solar-Advice-SunSaver-10-and-Fox-D1/47253/

 

In my opinion, given your apparent situation, whilst I’d not necessarily specify the make of solar panels to fit (most are manufactured in Asia these days) I would ask your installer to produce a schematic of their proposed solar installation for your approval.

 

In particular, I’d expect non flexible solar panels, ie ridged monocrystalline with aluminium frames and glass faced, a best of class motorhome specific solar regulator that charges both the habitation batteries and trickle charges the starter batter (a favourite amongst some of us is the Votronic MPPT duo -– there may be alternatives), I’d expect the regulator to be installed close to the habitation batteries and I’d expect the output of the regulator to be fed directly into the EBL rather than directly to the batteries – that way the EBL will correctly monitor habitation battery charge/usage.