Chelston Motorhomes

[Steve H]

If ever there was a tale of a fool and his money soon parted this is it.

[davidmac]

Hi as we go through life we all take decisions that turn out in hindsight to be good or bad(I’ve been doing that for seventy two years). It seems to me that Paul has hopefully got a half decent result with Chelston and will not be too much out of pocket. In a year or twos time he will look back and say it’s been hassle but now I am enjoying it. I for one wish him well.

Regards David

[TheEscapist]

Steve H - 2019-05-04 9:23 PM

 

If ever there was a tale of a fool and his money soon parted this is it.

 

What a sad, unfulfilled person you are, Steve, to make such a comment.

 

I ordered a motorhome in good faith and I’ve worked patiently with the dealer, who now the realise their mistake are making good. I’ve lost no money and can get a refund right now in full if I want. I choose not to and buy a better solution now I’ve learned what I’ve learned wit( the kind help of people here. It’s a shame you aren’t able to do the same because your small mindedness has clearly got you nowhere in life.

 

Me, well I’m many things but one thing is welath6 enough to buy any motorhome, and all because I’ve worked hard, I trust people and I have a positive attitude to life. Sad, bitter people like you are why people don’t like coming on forums.

 

Me, I see it as sport to enjoy seeing your jealousy...

 

All the best

 

Paul

[TheEscapist]

davidmac - 2019-05-05 1:21 AM

 

Hi as we go through life we all take decisions that turn out in hindsight to be good or bad(I’ve been doing that for seventy two years). It seems to me that Paul has hopefully got a half decent result with Chelston and will not be too much out of pocket. In a year or twos time he will look back and say it’s been hassle but now I am enjoying it. I for one wish him well.

Regards David

 

Thanks, David.

 

I’m not out of pocket at all as I’m getting a full refund and then same discount on a new, more suitable van. i’m only down on time invested, but I’m happy I did spend the time as I feel like I’ve been on a steep learning curve but it’s been well worthwhile.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Laika.brian]

Paul.

 

Your diligence and openness in this thread and the advice you have received may have saved you and family from a nasty surprise in the future, at the very least you will be I hope content and safe in your new motorhome.

 

 

Your experience should teach us all to take nothing at face value and to always check the information one is been given.

 

Very best wishes

 

Brian

[dicksob]

Well done to Chelston, given all the bad reports on dealers, great to see them doing the right thing without any fuss! Hopefully they will also learn from this and be much more careful and honest with customers about axle weights and payload.

 

Paul, you are going to have an amazing van on the Iveco chassis, only hear good reports, just make sure you go for the 8 speed auto!

 

Best

Bill

[TheEscapist]

Laika.brian - 2019-05-05 10:41 AM

 

Paul.

 

Your diligence and openness in this thread and the advice you have received may have saved you and family from a nasty surprise in the future, at the very least you will be I hope content and safe in your new motorhome.

 

 

Your experience should teach us all to take nothing at face value and to always check the information one is been given.

 

Very best wishes

 

Brian

 

Thanks, Brian. I really appreciate your words.

[TheEscapist]

dicksob - 2019-05-05 10:43 AM

 

Well done to Chelston, given all the bad reports on dealers, great to see them doing the right thing without any fuss! Hopefully they will also learn from this and be much more careful and honest with customers about axle weights and payload.

 

Paul, you are going to have an amazing van on the Iveco chassis, only hear good reports, just make sure you go for the 8 speed auto!

 

Best

Bill

 

Yes, absolutely right. I was pleasantly surprised when Wayne offered a full refund but because I still want a motorhome I'm happy to work with them for a new van.

 

I think there was an element of not being totally open and also an element of thinking that some people don't mind being 'overloaded'.

 

They have found out now I'm not that sort of person in either respect and the safety of my family comes first.

 

I look forward to sharing the final spec. I went through the ideal spec yesterday with Wayne and yes, it's 205hp, 8 speed auto and air all round. Other options could be fitted by Carthago or Chelston. I'm not really sure which is best.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[bolero boy]

assuming it's the standard Fiat version (not the L) these are the number from the Carthago tech page

 

Tech. permitted total mass4500 kg can be raised to 4800kg

Weight in running order 3735 kg

Unladen weight in standard condition 3520 k

this gives a 'payload' of 1065kg

 

I don't know how much water is included in this, 20 ltr perhaps? so adding another 200 ltr plus the extras listed earlier (250lkg?) would add 450kg to the weight making it 4185kg which is miles away from the near 4800kg reading at the weighbridge and leaving a remaining 'payload' of 615kg....

 

I would be getting it reweighed somewhere else just to double check.

 

agreed, the Iveco version would provide 'even more' capacity but something doesn't seem right somewhere..

[Keith T]

I bought a new Burstner from them in 2007, and that was my first dealing with them..I found Simon (who was then the salesman there) extremely helpful and patient, and both he and I knew exactly what my wife and i wanted.

 

Regarding extras and options ,it was very fortunate that in the Burstner printed brochure then, all the options were not only listed and priced, but the additional weight quoted. So we were able to work out what was necessary or desirable, and also what could be dealer fitted or optioned from factory. In fact one or two things which we optioned from the dealer were subsequently added to the factory build list, and worked out cheaper. I would always recommend getting as much as possible factory fitted

 

I built up an excellent relationship with them, both initially after sales, . then warranty work, of which there was quite a bit. After 10 years I decided to downsize, and specifically went for a manufacturers whose vans they stocked, changing to an Autotrail v-line PVC. Again there have been warranty issues, all of which have been dealt with very professionally and in a friendly manner, and I continue to have the same relationship there.

 

I do have to express some surprise that still the sales people do not seem as aware of weight issues as they should be, .but fortunately in 2007 that issue was being brought up more and more, though even then I felt I was in the driving seat (so to speak) as to what was acceptable and I would have expected by now that every salesperson in every dealer should be well aware of this.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Excellent Robin.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Excellent Derek. Some extra intellect info about the interface of the AL-Ko chassis. You can not play around whit weight on that chassis, for the following reasons. Fiat provides ESP Proxycodes to alko. And alko re program them to the chassis code on their vin plate. BOSCH- Software. All the weight data is stored for life in the alko database. A recent problem was on hymers of a esp missmatch. The famous Eland test.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Paul you have it all. What kind of air suspension on the rear or front. What kind of front Light or heavy. Is a weight upgrade possible. Check whit carthago stufe 3. And who put on all the options.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

In case for Iveco chassis you are in a truck world and a high entrance step. Like N+ B. Your wife does not like it.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

In a nutshell you are trapped in weight.. By in the first place the dealer who is responsible for this to put you safely on the road. Carthago is to blame and Chelston who are in contract which each other. And You.

[TheEscapist]

Keith T - 2019-05-05 3:32 PM

 

I bought a new Burstner from them in 2007, and that was my first dealing with them..I found Simon (who was then the salesman there) extremely helpful and patient, and both he and I knew exactly what my wife and i wanted.

 

Regarding extras and options ,it was very fortunate that in the Burstner printed brochure then, all the options were not only listed and priced, but the additional weight quoted. So we were able to work out what was necessary or desirable, and also what could be dealer fitted or optioned from factory. In fact one or two things which we optioned from the dealer were subsequently added to the factory build list, and worked out cheaper. I would always recommend getting as much as possible factory fitted

 

I built up an excellent relationship with them, both initially after sales, . then warranty work, of which there was quite a bit. After 10 years I decided to downsize, and specifically went for a manufacturers whose vans they stocked, changing to an Autotrail v-line PVC. Again there have been warranty issues, all of which have been dealt with very professionally and in a friendly manner, and I continue to have the same relationship there.

 

I do have to express some surprise that still the sales people do not seem as aware of weight issues as they should be, .but fortunately in 2007 that issue was being brought up more and more, though even then I felt I was in the driving seat (so to speak) as to what was acceptable and I would have expected by now that every salesperson in every dealer should be well aware of this.

 

Carthago also list the weight of every option. Chelston knew this all along and either forgot to add them up or decided it wasn’t that important but they had them and I asked on a couple of occasions to check the weight. They didn’t want to preferring to wait until the end and then they didn’t weigh the individual axles so it seems to me the idea was to ignore the weight issue!

[TheEscapist]

bolero boy - 2019-05-05 12:39 PM

 

assuming it's the standard Fiat version (not the L) these are the number from the Carthago tech page

 

Tech. permitted total mass4500 kg can be raised to 4800kg

Weight in running order 3735 kg

Unladen weight in standard condition 3520 k

this gives a 'payload' of 1065kg

 

I don't know how much water is included in this, 20 ltr perhaps? so adding another 200 ltr plus the extras listed earlier (250lkg?) would add 450kg to the weight making it 4185kg which is miles away from the near 4800kg reading at the weighbridge and leaving a remaining 'payload' of 615kg....

 

I would be getting it reweighed somewhere else just to double check.

 

agreed, the Iveco version would provide 'even more' capacity but something doesn't seem right somewhere..

 

Extras. - 4 x solar panels, generator, aircon, spare wheel etc come to 1,000 kgs. No mistake on the weighbridge.

[TheEscapist]

monique.hubrechts@gm - 2019-05-05 7:43 PM

 

In case for Iveco chassis you are in a truck world and a high entrance step. Like N+ B. Your wife does not like it.

 

Thanks. Will have to jump up but I like the extra ground clearance.

[TheEscapist]

monique.hubrechts@gm - 2019-05-05 8:59 PM

 

In a nutshell you are trapped in weight.. By in the first place the dealer who is responsible for this to put you safely on the road. Carthago is to blame and Chelston who are in contract which each other. And You.

 

Yes, I told them exactly that hence the refund. These days the boss can be found personally criminally liable in case of accidents. There have been many such cases in the UK so every dealer should take care to ensure a van leaves in a roadworthy state.

[Derek Uzzell]

The current Carthago price-list is here

 

https://www.carthago.com/fileadmin/user_upload/download/2019/EN_PL_Integriert_2019_1.pdf

 

As Bolero Boy said earlier, a Liner-for-Two 53 model built on a Ducato Maxi AL-KO chassis with a single rear-axle will have an 'on-paper’ payload of 1065kg.

 

The price-list's weight-in-running-order datum of 3735kg carrires footnote figures 6, 7 and 9. These are explained towards the end of the price-list as follows

 

6) The additional load capacity always depends on the empty weight. It is reduced by the installation of extras/special features. It also requires appropriate load distribution depending on the load capacity of the axles.

 

7) The weight in a roadworthy condition is determined by ordinance (EU) no. 1,230/2,012 incl. basic equipment (driver 75 kg, 90% fuel, 20 l (from e-line: 50 l) fresh water, 1 aluminium gas bottle and electrical connection cables) in the standard configuration. The weight in a roadworthy condition changes due to the installatoon of accessories and special equipment.

 

9) Deviations in weight specifications of up to 5% are possible and permitted.

 

The new Carthago Liner-for-Two 53 model advertised here

 

https://www.goeuropean.co.uk/new/motorhomes/carthago/liner-for-two/liner-for-two-53

 

has a similar specification to Paul's and carries this information

 

Weight increase from 4500KG to 4800 kg with front axle 2300KG /rear axle 2700KG. Front axle with reinforced spring, rear axle with full air suspension, Four alloy wheels with increased load

 

Assuming that those axle-weight maxima are correct, Paul’s vehicle’s specification can be summarised as follows

 

Maximumum overall weight - 4800kg

Maximum front-axle loading - 2300kg

Maximum rear-axle loading - 2700kg

Tyres maximum axle-loading - 2900kg

 

This looks perfectly ’normal’ - the tyres’ load-carrying capability exceeds each maximum axle-loading figure and the total of the two axle-loading figures exceeds the maximum overall weight.

 

When Paul’s Carthago was weighed its overall weight was 4760kg (so sub-4800kg), it’s front-axle weight was 1860kg (sub-2300kg) and its calculated rear-axle weight (4760-1860) was 2900kg (200kg over the 2700kg limit) - but the vehicle had 235 litres of fresh-water onboard not the 20 litres mentioned in Footnote 7. If 215 litres of water were drained off and the motorhome reweighed, the rear-axle weight should reduce from 2900kg to around 2700kg, which would essentially ‘legalise’ it. But running the motorhome with a near-empty fresh-water tank would be impracticable.

 

As motorhomes increase in size and weight there’s a cross-over point where the limitations of a design with a single ’single-fitment’ rear-axle will make it impracticable tp operate the vehicle normally. For FWD motorhomes a tandem rear-axle configuration will be needed, and for RWD motorhomes the rear-axle will need to have twinned wheels. This isn’t just to cope with there being a lot of rearwards-located weight on the rear-axle, it’s also so that the tyres can safely handle that load.

 

There are plenty of motorhomes marketed that, at best, have marginal weight allowances and Paul is fortunate to be able to reject this one and obtain a full refund.

[bolero boy]

TheEscapist - 2019-05-05 9:44 PM

 

bolero boy - 2019-05-05 12:39 PM

 

assuming it's the standard Fiat version (not the L) these are the number from the Carthago tech page

 

Tech. permitted total mass4500 kg can be raised to 4800kg

Weight in running order 3735 kg

Unladen weight in standard condition 3520 k

this gives a 'payload' of 1065kg

 

I don't know how much water is included in this, 20 ltr perhaps? so adding another 200 ltr plus the extras listed earlier (250lkg?) would add 450kg to the weight making it 4185kg which is miles away from the near 4800kg reading at the weighbridge and leaving a remaining 'payload' of 615kg....

 

I would be getting it reweighed somewhere else just to double check.

 

agreed, the Iveco version would provide 'even more' capacity but something doesn't seem right somewhere..

 

Extras. - 4 x solar panels, generator, aircon, spare wheel etc come to 1,000 kgs. No mistake on the weighbridge.

 

Paul, you posted these figures earlier....

 

Further to the above, I’ve done some quick calculations on weight added:

 

- generator - 50kgs

- fuel tank for generator - 25kgs

- truma air con - 25kgs

- solar panels - approx 100kgs (5sqm)

- spare wheel - 25kgs

- total - 225kgs

 

hence me using them in my calculation above.

yes, the Super Pack (or other factory fitted options will add to the MIRO but there are very many Carthargos of similar lenght happily. being used with apparently decent payloads..

 

I've posted a question on the Carthago forum as there are quite a few Liner for Two owners there.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

bolero boy you missed: 5mtr awning, Alde heating in case not standard, Sat tv, Air suspension, EP hydraulic feets.

[TheEscapist]

Does anyone have experience or advice regarding air suspension on the front wheels?

 

I ask because the Iveco Liner for Two available right away is a nice spec but lacks front air (it has the rear air package only).

 

It also lacks the payload upgrade to 4.8t from 4.6t which is a pain but not sure how they dl that anyway so maybe can be done at dealer.

 

 

[bolero boy]

in what motorhome this month a similar sized (7.78m) Carthargo Chic C-line 5.3 QB SL on a Fiat has quoted payload of 890kg on std 4,250 Heavy chassis.

upgrade this to 4800 (as with the OP's van) and this adds another 550kg and rises to 1440kg.

even removing 500 odd for the full water tank and the extras listed by the OP, this still leaves roughly 900kg of payload to accommodate any other factory extras (super pack etc), the co-driver and 'everything else' we MHers normally carry.

to me, there's something not right that allows an apparent payload of nearly 1.5 tonnes to disappear before the driver and the co-driver have even entered the van and none of its huge storage capacity has even been touched.

I have a small Carthago (with three 'packs' and a few other extras, solar panel, twin batteries, inverter, sat system, awning, garage bike rack and two ebikes) which I can run at 3500kg in full running trim for a three month sojourn....and include a 'wine allowance' on the way home.

I even had 'my van' weighed in a known state prior to purchase so as to fully understand the effect of transferring all my extras from my previous 7.4m 4.25t Carthago which AFAIK had masses of spare payload.

however, after reading this thread, if I had a larger version on the heavy chassis, I'd be extremely worried that (somehow) my 7.5m+ van (with 1-1.5 tonnes payload depending on chassis upgrade) was significantly overweight...

it's not that the Liner 4 Two is 'that large' (7.70 odd isn't enormous by any standards).

I'm glad the OP is heading towards a satisfactory resolution but something doesnt seem right here...

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Paul that is correct. You have The VB air on the rear as N=B does. You can not level whit this. Only via EP feets. Why? not a clue. But they have a nice standard front suspension better than fiat ducats. Just rear air is a endless mission to discuss to compare 4 corner air. The liner adria sonic supreme is only available whit alko rear suspension for example. ADRIA DOES NOT REVEAL WHY.