Bulletguy Posted April 2, 2019 Author Share Posted April 2, 2019 malc d - 2019-04-02 3:36 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-02 2:35 PM malc d - 2019-04-02 1:56 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-04-02 1:31 PM If that agreement cannot be found, the article 50 notification should be revoked, and we should then do what should have been done before the referendum was run: find out what it is about the EU that the Brexiters actually want to be rid of, who would be the winners and losers from that, and define a form of Brexit among ourselves that is the genuine least worst settlement. Then hold a second referendum on the basis of that form of Brexit versus remain, properly moderated, with all claims on both sides being checked and verified or corrected before the vote takes place. IF we revoke article 50 now ( resulting from a second referendum ) - stay in - and have a referendum every 5 years to see if we want to stay in. ( That might be a good idea in ALL the EU countries as it might concentrate the minds of EU leaders to listen to their electorates a bit more carefully ) :-( Might help concentrate the minds of our home bred loonies too eh?! ;-) Not if people still keep calling them loonies it won't. If you want to change someones mind it's best not to start by calling them stupid - even if you think they are. ( At the moment each side thinks the other side are stupid - and it hasn't worked out too well so far ). :-( Will 'people of a unrealistic mindset' do? The list of Brexit soundbites hasn't exactly endeared themselves to people has it? I was listening to one outside the HoC this morning still trotting out the old line of "will of the people" and the interviewer said, "hold on a minute, what about the will of those who voted Remain or don't they matter?" The guy looked totally bewildered to be asked such a question and brushed it dismissively away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 It’s interesting that Mervyn King ,who should know a thing or two about finance, says Brexit no deal should not be as problematical as a lot seem to think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-04-02 4:31 PM malc d - 2019-04-02 3:36 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-02 2:35 PM malc d - 2019-04-02 1:56 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-04-02 1:31 PM If that agreement cannot be found, the article 50 notification should be revoked, and we should then do what should have been done before the referendum was run: find out what it is about the EU that the Brexiters actually want to be rid of, who would be the winners and losers from that, and define a form of Brexit among ourselves that is the genuine least worst settlement. Then hold a second referendum on the basis of that form of Brexit versus remain, properly moderated, with all claims on both sides being checked and verified or corrected before the vote takes place. IF we revoke article 50 now ( resulting from a second referendum ) - stay in - and have a referendum every 5 years to see if we want to stay in. ( That might be a good idea in ALL the EU countries as it might concentrate the minds of EU leaders to listen to their electorates a bit more carefully ) :-( Might help concentrate the minds of our home bred loonies too eh?! ;-) Not if people still keep calling them loonies it won't. If you want to change someones mind it's best not to start by calling them stupid - even if you think they are. ( At the moment each side thinks the other side are stupid - and it hasn't worked out too well so far ). :-( Will 'people of a unrealistic mindset' do? . Dunno. Depends who you say it to. You can always try out insults on yourself first - and see what YOUR reaction is. Other peoples reactions will probably be the same. Generally , I would suggest, if you call someone stupid - or something similar - it doesn't make them more attentive - it makes them ignore you. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-04-02 4:30 PM I just got this Brexit flowchart. Thought it may make some chuckle. Hope it doesn't get me kicked off! :-D Brilliant chart Brian. Thanks for that. I just hope that BBC News or Sky News haven't got hold of a copy. If they do they will spend the next 24 hours discussing it with MPs and journalists on the lawn outside the House of Commons ! ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 :-( Will 'people of a unrealistic mindset' do? The list of Brexit soundbites hasn't exactly endeared themselves to people has it? I was listening to one outside the HoC this morning still trotting out the old line of "will of the people" and the interviewer said, "hold on a minute, what about the will of those who voted Remain or don't they matter?" The guy looked totally bewildered to be asked such a question and brushed it dismissively away. So if we have a General election and Labour get in,do we then have to take into account all those who voted for another party, or if we just don’t like the result clamour for a second vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 jumpstart - 2019-04-02 4:39 PM It’s interesting that Mervyn King ,who should know a thing or two about finance, says Brexit no deal should not be as problematical as a lot seem to think. Yes, I heard most of that interview. However, what I didn't hear him say is that Brexit would be better for the UK than remain. So, what he was really saying depends on who exactly he has in mind when he speaks of "a lot" who seem (to him) to think Brexit would be bad, and which version of Brexit he thinks they have in mind as being bad. Hardly a laser-like analysis, was it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 malc d - 2019-04-02 4:48 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-04-02 4:30 PM I just got this Brexit flowchart. Thought it may make some chuckle. Hope it doesn't get me kicked off! :-D Brilliant chart Brian. Thanks for that. I just hope that BBC News or Sky News haven't got hold of a copy. If they do they will spend the next 24 hours discussing it with MPs and journalists on the lawn outside the House of Commons ! ;-) :-D :-D :-D :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 Yes it’s all a bloody mess now,your chart speaks volumes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 jumpstart - 2019-04-02 5:01 PM :-( Bulletguy - 2019-04-02 4:31 PM.....................Will 'people of a unrealistic mindset' do? The list of Brexit soundbites hasn't exactly endeared themselves to people has it? I was listening to one outside the HoC this morning still trotting out the old line of "will of the people" and the interviewer said, "hold on a minute, what about the will of those who voted Remain or don't they matter?" The guy looked totally bewildered to be asked such a question and brushed it dismissively away. So if we have a General election and Labour get in,do we then have to take into account all those who voted for another party, or if we just don’t like the result clamour for a second vote. But that is what normally happens with general elections. One party gets a majority of seats and forms a government. If people generally like what they do, they get re-elected five years or so later. If they don't, they get the sack and someone else takes over, and so on. If they make a real mess, they may not last five years. That is how we avoid becoming a one party state and, in general, serious corruption. But Brexit is/was not an election, and people are resisting the idea that it should (apparently ever) be reversed. It is different to an election because once out, we are out, with little prospect of being able to re-join (I'd guess at least within the lifetimes of any of the politicians who have been trying to make out what we want!). Leaving will inflict some personal loss on the majority of our population, of that there seems little doubt (except in the mind, mainly, of Patrick Minford) so, in effect the Brexiters are voting to be worse off and, in the process, to make everyone else (whether remainers or those who have so far expressed no opinion) worse of as well. That is the difference between the Brexit referendum and an election. The one subjects the country to the (relatively) temporary policies of a government, subject to five yearly reviews at which they can be voted out: the other inflicts the will of a minority of the electorate on the whole of the electorate and is, for all intents and purposes, irreversible within a lifetime. There is no forecast (except Minford's), of whatever format of Brexit, based on whatever future scenarios, that foresees the UK having a higher standard of living than it has as a member of the EU. If you look at Minford's "Brexit is better" report it relies on extreme free trade, a bonfire of the regulations, no contribution to the EU budget, and no (what he calls a subsidy) payments to "unskilled EU migrants", which he estimates cost £3,500 per head (with no explanation of who, or how numerous, they are). Other economists disagree with his analysis, because they take into account the impact on individual standards of living, whereas Minford looks only at the macroeconomic gains while disregarding the impact of his proposal on individuals. Realistically, Minford's view seems to be that an elite get richer, while the rest have to work longer for lower pay in worse conditions, and endure poorer services, to pay for it. That seems to me a shaky basis for national contentment, with those already dissatisfied at the way the economy fails to improve their lot, finding themselves among the biggest losers. Why do that? It makes no sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 2, 2019 Author Share Posted April 2, 2019 malc d - 2019-04-02 4:44 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-02 4:31 PM malc d - 2019-04-02 3:36 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-02 2:35 PM malc d - 2019-04-02 1:56 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-04-02 1:31 PM If that agreement cannot be found, the article 50 notification should be revoked, and we should then do what should have been done before the referendum was run: find out what it is about the EU that the Brexiters actually want to be rid of, who would be the winners and losers from that, and define a form of Brexit among ourselves that is the genuine least worst settlement. Then hold a second referendum on the basis of that form of Brexit versus remain, properly moderated, with all claims on both sides being checked and verified or corrected before the vote takes place. IF we revoke article 50 now ( resulting from a second referendum ) - stay in - and have a referendum every 5 years to see if we want to stay in. ( That might be a good idea in ALL the EU countries as it might concentrate the minds of EU leaders to listen to their electorates a bit more carefully ) :-( Might help concentrate the minds of our home bred loonies too eh?! ;-) Not if people still keep calling them loonies it won't. If you want to change someones mind it's best not to start by calling them stupid - even if you think they are. ( At the moment each side thinks the other side are stupid - and it hasn't worked out too well so far ). :-( Will 'people of a unrealistic mindset' do? Dunno. Depends who you say it to. You can always try out insults on yourself first - and see what YOUR reaction is. Other peoples reactions will probably be the same. Generally , I would suggest, if you call someone stupid - or something similar - it doesn't make them more attentive - it makes them ignore you. :-| Hhmm.....i think deeming 'unrealistic mindset' an 'insult' is stretching it more than just a bit Malc! After all it is known fact that those promoting Brexit made undeliverable promises which in one word would be 'unrealistic'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-04-02 5:29 PM jumpstart - 2019-04-02 4:39 PM It’s interesting that Mervyn King ,who should know a thing or two about finance, says Brexit no deal should not be as problematical as a lot seem to think. Yes, I heard most of that interview. However, what I didn't hear him say is that Brexit would be better for the UK than remain. So, what he was really saying depends on who exactly he has in mind when he speaks of "a lot" who seem (to him) to think Brexit would be bad, and which version of Brexit he thinks they have in mind as being bad. Hardly a laser-like analysis, was it? I watched Sir Mark Ivan Rogers ,our previous permenant Eu representiative,brief the House of Lords some weeks ago, for an hour and a half and it was a fascinating brief. Basically he told May it would take the best part of 10 years to extricate ourselves from the Eu. She did not like his advise so ignored it. He also said we did not have any negotiators, as the Eu had been doing it for the last 40 years, so we were unlikely to get a favourable deal any time soon. I think the whole process has been amateurishly done, and we certainly are not at a good point. However that’s not to say it’s the wrong path. The whole Eu has good and bad parts to it, it’s unfortunate that a little more discussion wasn’t carried out earlier. I am even more disolutioned with our Eu “bosses” and with our parliamentarians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-04-02 6:36 PM malc d - 2019-04-02 4:44 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-02 4:31 PM malc d - 2019-04-02 3:36 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-02 2:35 PM malc d - 2019-04-02 1:56 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-04-02 1:31 PM If that agreement cannot be found, the article 50 notification should be revoked, and we should then do what should have been done before the referendum was run: find out what it is about the EU that the Brexiters actually want to be rid of, who would be the winners and losers from that, and define a form of Brexit among ourselves that is the genuine least worst settlement. Then hold a second referendum on the basis of that form of Brexit versus remain, properly moderated, with all claims on both sides being checked and verified or corrected before the vote takes place. IF we revoke article 50 now ( resulting from a second referendum ) - stay in - and have a referendum every 5 years to see if we want to stay in. ( That might be a good idea in ALL the EU countries as it might concentrate the minds of EU leaders to listen to their electorates a bit more carefully ) :-( Might help concentrate the minds of our home bred loonies too eh?! ;-) Not if people still keep calling them loonies it won't. If you want to change someones mind it's best not to start by calling them stupid - even if you think they are. ( At the moment each side thinks the other side are stupid - and it hasn't worked out too well so far ). :-( Will 'people of a unrealistic mindset' do? Dunno. Depends who you say it to. You can always try out insults on yourself first - and see what YOUR reaction is. Other peoples reactions will probably be the same. Generally , I would suggest, if you call someone stupid - or something similar - it doesn't make them more attentive - it makes them ignore you. :-| Hhmm.....i think deeming 'unrealistic mindset' an 'insult' is stretching it more than just a bit Malc! Fair enough - presumably then if someone said YOU have an " unrealistic mindset " you wouldn't feel insulted. Some other people might - as I said - it depends who you say these things to. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 2, 2019 Author Share Posted April 2, 2019 malc d - 2019-04-02 8:51 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-02 6:36 PM malc d - 2019-04-02 4:44 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-02 4:31 PM malc d - 2019-04-02 3:36 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-02 2:35 PM malc d - 2019-04-02 1:56 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-04-02 1:31 PM If that agreement cannot be found, the article 50 notification should be revoked, and we should then do what should have been done before the referendum was run: find out what it is about the EU that the Brexiters actually want to be rid of, who would be the winners and losers from that, and define a form of Brexit among ourselves that is the genuine least worst settlement. Then hold a second referendum on the basis of that form of Brexit versus remain, properly moderated, with all claims on both sides being checked and verified or corrected before the vote takes place. IF we revoke article 50 now ( resulting from a second referendum ) - stay in - and have a referendum every 5 years to see if we want to stay in. ( That might be a good idea in ALL the EU countries as it might concentrate the minds of EU leaders to listen to their electorates a bit more carefully ) :-( Might help concentrate the minds of our home bred loonies too eh?! ;-) Not if people still keep calling them loonies it won't. If you want to change someones mind it's best not to start by calling them stupid - even if you think they are. ( At the moment each side thinks the other side are stupid - and it hasn't worked out too well so far ). :-( Will 'people of a unrealistic mindset' do? Dunno. Depends who you say it to. You can always try out insults on yourself first - and see what YOUR reaction is. Other peoples reactions will probably be the same. Generally , I would suggest, if you call someone stupid - or something similar - it doesn't make them more attentive - it makes them ignore you. :-| Hhmm.....i think deeming 'unrealistic mindset' an 'insult' is stretching it more than just a bit Malc! Fair enough - presumably then if someone said YOU have an " unrealistic mindset " you wouldn't feel insulted. Some other people might - as I said - it depends who you say these things to. :-| No i wouldn't [feel insulted] though i would expect an explanation on what reasons led them to feel i was being 'unrealistic'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-04-02 8:59 PM malc d - 2019-04-02 8:51 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-02 6:36 PM malc d - 2019-04-02 4:44 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-02 4:31 PM malc d - 2019-04-02 3:36 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-02 2:35 PM malc d - 2019-04-02 1:56 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-04-02 1:31 PM If that agreement cannot be found, the article 50 notification should be revoked, and we should then do what should have been done before the referendum was run: find out what it is about the EU that the Brexiters actually want to be rid of, who would be the winners and losers from that, and define a form of Brexit among ourselves that is the genuine least worst settlement. Then hold a second referendum on the basis of that form of Brexit versus remain, properly moderated, with all claims on both sides being checked and verified or corrected before the vote takes place. IF we revoke article 50 now ( resulting from a second referendum ) - stay in - and have a referendum every 5 years to see if we want to stay in. ( That might be a good idea in ALL the EU countries as it might concentrate the minds of EU leaders to listen to their electorates a bit more carefully ) :-( Might help concentrate the minds of our home bred loonies too eh?! ;-) Not if people still keep calling them loonies it won't. If you want to change someones mind it's best not to start by calling them stupid - even if you think they are. ( At the moment each side thinks the other side are stupid - and it hasn't worked out too well so far ). :-( Will 'people of a unrealistic mindset' do? Dunno. Depends who you say it to. You can always try out insults on yourself first - and see what YOUR reaction is. Other peoples reactions will probably be the same. Generally , I would suggest, if you call someone stupid - or something similar - it doesn't make them more attentive - it makes them ignore you. :-| Hhmm.....i think deeming 'unrealistic mindset' an 'insult' is stretching it more than just a bit Malc! Fair enough - presumably then if someone said YOU have an " unrealistic mindset " you wouldn't feel insulted. Some other people might - as I said - it depends who you say these things to. :-| No i wouldn't [feel insulted] though i would expect an explanation on what reasons led them to feel i was being 'unrealistic'. Now your being "Unrealistic" (lol) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 I didn't watch the debate on 1.4.2019 but for those who haven't seen it and are interested here is the link to Hansard on what was said. https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2019-04-01/debates/DAEA92D0-DB85-4370-B65C-2BB2FF6B5AE9/LeavingTheEuropeanUnion I particularly like the quote from Edmund Burke used by Catherine McKinnell “Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgement; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.” Top bloke and that says it all for me about the brave position taken by Dominic Grieve Goodnight all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 Violet1956 - 2019-04-04 11:45 PM I didn't watch the debate on 1.4.2019 but for those who haven't seen it and are interested here is the link to Hansard on what was said. https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2019-04-01/debates/DAEA92D0-DB85-4370-B65C-2BB2FF6B5AE9/LeavingTheEuropeanUnion I particularly like the quote from Edmund Burke used by Catherine McKinnell “Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgement; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.” Top bloke and that says it all for me about the brave position taken by Dominic Grieve Goodnight all Which translated means.........."I don't give a f*ck what you plebs think" *-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 There are no doubt people who voted to leave and people who voted remain who failed to grasp all of the consequences of leaving or remaining Dave. My hairdresser voted leave and is the first to admit that she is no scholar. She told me that she did not really understand what it was all about so she asked her dad how she should vote. Jason Brennan writing in the New Statesman sums it up for me in his article which touches upon the fundamental problems associated with referenda and he refers to some of the problems associated with the EU referendum in particular. “The problems of political ignorance, misinformation, and irrationality are built-in to democracy. They are not superficial flaws, but problems democracy itself creates. We cannot “fix” the problem with more democracy any more than we can fix a flood with more rain. At the very least, these problems highlight why representative parliaments are important and why referenda are, in general, terrible ideas (especially in large democracies). We want our representatives to represent us. But sometimes that does not simply mean promoting the policies we favour. Sometimes, instead, it means doing what is good for us rather than what we want. Members of parliament are much better informed than the public as a whole, and they recognise their decisions have real weight” He is known for what is perhaps a controversial view that most people have a moral obligation not to vote on matters of great political and economic issues etc of significance to the well-being of their country that they don’t understand. Applied to my hairdresser’s scenario, Leave got two votes instead of the one vote they ought to have had if democracy is to work effectively, and that’s only if her father took the trouble to inform himself sufficiently about what the issues were and was not misled. Would the ignorant, misinformed and/or irrational on both sides of the divide cancel each other out so as to make a referendum on such a complex issue such as Brexit a good idea one may ask? Professor Brennan explains why that is not so in the article. https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/12/end-democracy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 Violet1956 - 2019-04-05 10:35 AM There are no doubt people who voted to leave and people who voted remain who failed to grasp all of the consequences of leaving or remaining Dave. My hairdresser voted leave and is the first to admit that she is no scholar. She told me that she did not really understand what it was all about so she asked her dad how she should vote. Jason Brennan writing in the New Statesman sums it up for me in his article which touches upon the fundamental problems associated with referenda and he refers to some of the problems associated with the EU referendum in particular. “The problems of political ignorance, misinformation, and irrationality are built-in to democracy. They are not superficial flaws, but problems democracy itself creates. We cannot “fix” the problem with more democracy any more than we can fix a flood with more rain. At the very least, these problems highlight why representative parliaments are important and why referenda are, in general, terrible ideas (especially in large democracies). We want our representatives to represent us. But sometimes that does not simply mean promoting the policies we favour. Sometimes, instead, it means doing what is good for us rather than what we want. Members of parliament are much better informed than the public as a whole, and they recognise their decisions have real weight” He is known for what is perhaps a controversial view that most people have a moral obligation not to vote on matters of great political and economic issues etc of significance to the well-being of their country that they don’t understand. Applied to my hairdresser’s scenario, Leave got two votes instead of the one vote they ought to have had if democracy is to work effectively, and that’s only if her father took the trouble to inform himself sufficiently about what the issues were and was not misled. Would the ignorant, misinformed and/or irrational on both sides of the divide cancel each other out so as to make a referendum on such a complex issue such as Brexit a good idea one may ask? Professor Brennan explains why that is not so in the article. https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/12/end-democracy So what's the difference between a clueless hairdresser and a Remoaner who swallows every scare story hook line and sinker? ;-) ........... B*gger all *-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 None Dave I said as much, or that's what I intended to convey but perhaps didn't. However if you read the article you will see what Professor Brennan's argument is about why their votes don't cancel each other out so as to render referenda on issues such as Brexit effective in terms of securing the best outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 Violet1956 - 2019-04-05 11:13 AM None Dave I said as much, or that's what I intended to convey but perhaps didn't. However if you read the article you will see what Professor Brennan's argument is about why their votes don't cancel each other out so as to render referenda on issues such as Brexit effective in terms of securing the best outcome. If its all the same to you I'll give your Remoaner "EXPERT" theories a pass *-) ......... I don't need some biased professor trying to tell me why I voted to Leave (lol) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 He’s an expert in philosophy and political science not a biased “remoaner” Dave. He doesn’t say Brexit is a bad idea, he calls into question whether a referendum was the best way of deciding whether it was or not. I am beginning to wonder whether you read the whole article or just decided that it wasn’t worth doing so because you suspected it would conflict with your opinion. If you read it carefully you would have appreciated that it provides some ammunition to those who oppose a further referendum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 Violet1956 - 2019-04-05 1:34 PM He’s an expert in philosophy and political science not a biased “remoaner” Dave. He doesn’t say Brexit is a bad idea, he calls into question whether a referendum was the best way of deciding whether it was or not. I am beginning to wonder whether you read the whole article or just decided that it wasn’t worth doing so because you suspected it would conflict with your opinion. If you read it carefully you would have appreciated that it provides some ammunition to those who oppose a further referendum. So only the informed should be allowed to vote? *-) .......... How very big brother 8-) .......... At least we now know your a proper anti democratic Remoaner Veronica >:-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 5, 2019 Author Share Posted April 5, 2019 Violet1956 - 2019-04-05 10:35 AM “The problems of political ignorance, misinformation, and irrationality are built-in to democracy. They are not superficial flaws, but problems democracy itself creates. We cannot “fix” the problem with more democracy any more than we can fix a flood with more rain. At the very least, these problems highlight why representative parliaments are important and why referenda are, in general, terrible ideas (especially in large democracies). We want our representatives to represent us. But sometimes that does not simply mean promoting the policies we favour. Sometimes, instead, it means doing what is good for us rather than what we want. Members of parliament are much better informed than the public as a whole, and they recognise their decisions have real weight” . Would the ignorant, misinformed and/or irrational on both sides of the divide cancel each other out so as to make a referendum on such a complex issue such as Brexit a good idea one may ask? Professor Brennan explains why that is not so in the article. https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/12/end-democracy Good article Veronica though Pelmet won't read it and obviously hasn't. Referendums are common in Switzerland....they have them on almost everything and anything to the point it's a national joke among Swiss. My ex-wifes brother was a lawyer for the Swiss government and he always said the problem with referendums is citizens don't understand political law...they can't be expected to unless qualified as he was or studying the subject. Whilst politicians are certainly better qualified in decision making for the country than the average joe, i think they underestimated the mammoth task of untangling the vast number of laws involved. First big mistake was triggering A50 before any plan was in place. But then this cocksure attitude of "it will be easy" and May threatening EU "give us a deal or we will crush you" was sheer bloody minded arrogance which backfired spectacularly as two years later she was going begging bowl in hand. Ministers have been working very long hours and many will now be both physically and mentally exhausted. That's not a good situation to be in for sound decision making and it's easy to see why so many bad decisions have been made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-04-05 2:06 PM Violet1956 - 2019-04-05 10:35 AM “The problems of political ignorance, misinformation, and irrationality are built-in to democracy. They are not superficial flaws, but problems democracy itself creates. We cannot “fix” the problem with more democracy any more than we can fix a flood with more rain. At the very least, these problems highlight why representative parliaments are important and why referenda are, in general, terrible ideas (especially in large democracies). We want our representatives to represent us. But sometimes that does not simply mean promoting the policies we favour. Sometimes, instead, it means doing what is good for us rather than what we want. Members of parliament are much better informed than the public as a whole, and they recognise their decisions have real weight” . Would the ignorant, misinformed and/or irrational on both sides of the divide cancel each other out so as to make a referendum on such a complex issue such as Brexit a good idea one may ask? Professor Brennan explains why that is not so in the article. https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/12/end-democracy Good article Veronica though Pelmet won't read it and obviously hasn't. Referendums are common in Switzerland....they have them on almost everything and anything to the point it's a national joke among Swiss. My ex-wifes brother was a lawyer for the Swiss government and he always said the problem with referendums is citizens don't understand political law...they can't be expected to unless qualified as he was or studying the subject. Whilst politicians are certainly better qualified in decision making for the country than the average joe, i think they underestimated the mammoth task of untangling the vast number of laws involved. First big mistake was triggering A50 before any plan was in place. But then this cocksure attitude of "it will be easy" and May threatening EU "give us a deal or we will crush you" was sheer bloody minded arrogance which backfired spectacularly as two years later she was going begging bowl in hand. Ministers have been working very long hours and many will now be both physically and mentally exhausted. That's not a good situation to be in for sound decision making and it's easy to see why so many bad decisions have been made. The only bad decisions have been made by those who don't like democracy *-) ......... I bet you still think you can change our minds? (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Pat Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 Here's one for Curtainmuncher to read, its from his favourite news rag the Express and actually explains how WTO trade would work in between the adverts, of course they nicked it from a EU website https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1109728/brexit-news-what-would-WTO-brexit-look-like-facts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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