John52 Posted June 1, 2019 Share Posted June 1, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-06-01 4:04 PM John52 - 2019-06-01 3:56 PM pelmetman - 2019-06-01 3:17 PM Try seeing it through the eyes of those who won a democratic referendum Brian *-) Told so many lies to do it, which have since been exposed. Is that why you don't want to give the people another vote? It's funny how you and Brian suddenly reemerge at the same time? ;-) ......... Are you his secret lefty love child? :D ........ Perhaps Brian was a Plumbers Mate salesman in a former life? 8-) ........ Take it your changing the subject is a 'Yes' then (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 1, 2019 Share Posted June 1, 2019 John52 - 2019-06-01 4:52 PM pelmetman - 2019-06-01 4:04 PM John52 - 2019-06-01 3:56 PM pelmetman - 2019-06-01 3:17 PM Try seeing it through the eyes of those who won a democratic referendum Brian *-) Told so many lies to do it, which have since been exposed. Is that why you don't want to give the people another vote? It's funny how you and Brian suddenly reemerge at the same time? ;-) ......... Are you his secret lefty love child? :D ........ Perhaps Brian was a Plumbers Mate salesman in a former life? 8-) ........ Take it your changing the subject is a 'Yes' then (lol) I'm not changing the subject ..........I'm just guessing you got 30 months for something :D ........as your now out after 15 ;-) ......... Just askin >:-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted June 1, 2019 Share Posted June 1, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-06-01 4:04 PM John52 - 2019-06-01 3:56 PM pelmetman - 2019-06-01 3:17 PM Try seeing it through the eyes of those who won a democratic referendum Brian *-) Told so many lies to do it, which have since been exposed. Is that why you don't want to give the people another vote? It's funny how you and Brian suddenly reemerge at the same time? ;-) ......... What's 'funny' is how every time when faced with awkward truths and facts you cannot dispute, you instantly deflect to avoid answering the posters points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 1, 2019 Share Posted June 1, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-06-01 3:17 PM...……………………….Try seeing it through the eyes of those who won a democratic referendum Brian *-) ........ Well, what do you see, Dave? The (apparently) greatest single victory of your life crumbling before your eyes? That Brexit victory that threatens the standard of living of almost every person living in the UK being exposed for what it is. That collective mistake, that will impoverish the country for the next 20 or more years being called into question with increasing accuracy. What is it you really want? Your electoral victory, or what is in the best interests of the average working person in the UK? Who will gain if we leave, and how will they gain? Who will lose if we leave, and how will they lose? It may be that for political reasons we have to do this, if only to satisfy those whose only interest is in winning a self-destructive victory. Wonderful epitaph for the Brexiters: "we won a referendum, and broke the country". If you read the forecasts, that is the future that awaits us all post Brexit. Even Patrick Minford, who is about the only serious economist to support Brexit, concedes that the impact will last decades, and his peers almost unanimously say he's over optimistic because he's getting his sums wrong! Where is the human intelligence in insisting that a bad thing must be done, on the basis that a group of people, at a single point in time, decided that is what they wanted? Especially when that group has never yet been able to put forward a rational statement of their vision for a post Brexit Britain, how it will be achieved, and how it will make the average inhabitant better off than they would be were we to remain in the EU. Seeing it through the eyes of those who won a democratic referendum is easy. Seeing the consequences of realising that victory is another matter. Ever heard of a Pyrrhic victory? When will Brexiters stop obsessing about their bleedin' referendum victory, and start asking themselves the really serious questions. Who loses if we leave? Who loses if we remain? BTW, what have you got against degrees? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Pat Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-06-01 10:13 PM pelmetman - 2019-06-01 3:17 PM...……………………….Try seeing it through the eyes of those who won a democratic referendum Brian *-) ........ Well, what do you see, Dave? The (apparently) greatest single victory of your life crumbling before your eyes? That Brexit victory that threatens the standard of living of almost every person living in the UK being exposed for what it is. That collective mistake, that will impoverish the country for the next 20 or more years being called into question with increasing accuracy. What is it you really want? Your electoral victory, or what is in the best interests of the average working person in the UK? Who will gain if we leave, and how will they gain? Who will lose if we leave, and how will they lose? It may be that for political reasons we have to do this, if only to satisfy those whose only interest is in winning a self-destructive victory. Wonderful epitaph for the Brexiters: "we won a referendum, and broke the country". If you read the forecasts, that is the future that awaits us all post Brexit. Even Patrick Minford, who is about the only serious economist to support Brexit, concedes that the impact will last decades, and his peers almost unanimously say he's over optimistic because he's getting his sums wrong! Where is the human intelligence in insisting that a bad thing must be done, on the basis that a group of people, at a single point in time, decided that is what they wanted? Especially when that group has never yet been able to put forward a rational statement of their vision for a post Brexit Britain, how it will be achieved, and how it will make the average inhabitant better off than they would be were we to remain in the EU. Seeing it through the eyes of those who won a democratic referendum is easy. Seeing the consequences of realising that victory is another matter. Ever heard of a Pyrrhic victory? When will Brexiters stop obsessing about their bleedin' referendum victory, and start asking themselves the really serious questions. Who loses if we leave? Who loses if we remain? BTW, what have you got against degrees? b*****ks. I've been won over by Dave's informed and persuasive arguments, he's never once tried to deflect or play the whataboutery card, his intelligence and love for his fellow man just shines through. And he said we'd get blue passports, what could top that? And Dave said he's a big fan of degrees, provided they're Fahrenheit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-06-01 10:13 PM pelmetman - 2019-06-01 3:17 PM...……………………….Try seeing it through the eyes of those who won a democratic referendum Brian *-) ........ Well, what do you see, Dave? The (apparently) greatest single victory of your life crumbling before your eyes? That Brexit victory that threatens the standard of living of almost every person living in the UK being exposed for what it is. That collective mistake, that will impoverish the country for the next 20 or more years being called into question with increasing accuracy. What is it you really want? Your electoral victory, or what is in the best interests of the average working person in the UK? Who will gain if we leave, and how will they gain? Who will lose if we leave, and how will they lose? It may be that for political reasons we have to do this, if only to satisfy those whose only interest is in winning a self-destructive victory. Wonderful epitaph for the Brexiters: "we won a referendum, and broke the country". If you read the forecasts, that is the future that awaits us all post Brexit. Even Patrick Minford, who is about the only serious economist to support Brexit, concedes that the impact will last decades, and his peers almost unanimously say he's over optimistic because he's getting his sums wrong! Where is the human intelligence in insisting that a bad thing must be done, on the basis that a group of people, at a single point in time, decided that is what they wanted? Especially when that group has never yet been able to put forward a rational statement of their vision for a post Brexit Britain, how it will be achieved, and how it will make the average inhabitant better off than they would be were we to remain in the EU. Seeing it through the eyes of those who won a democratic referendum is easy. Seeing the consequences of realising that victory is another matter. Ever heard of a Pyrrhic victory? When will Brexiters stop obsessing about their bleedin' referendum victory, and start asking themselves the really serious questions. Who loses if we leave? Who loses if we remain? BTW, what have you got against degrees? Seeing as all your "Experts" doom mongering has come to naught *-) .......... How can you be sure any of your other Remoaner predictions will prove to be anymore accurate? *-) ........ The only way to find out is to leave >:-) ...........and if your "Experts" predictions prove to be as accurate as they have so far.......We can expect a BREXIT BONANZA B-)............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-06-02 8:08 AM Brian Kirby - 2019-06-01 10:13 PM pelmetman - 2019-06-01 3:17 PM...……………………….Try seeing it through the eyes of those who won a democratic referendum Brian *-) ........ Well, what do you see, Dave? The (apparently) greatest single victory of your life crumbling before your eyes? That Brexit victory that threatens the standard of living of almost every person living in the UK being exposed for what it is. That collective mistake, that will impoverish the country for the next 20 or more years being called into question with increasing accuracy. What is it you really want? Your electoral victory, or what is in the best interests of the average working person in the UK? Who will gain if we leave, and how will they gain? Who will lose if we leave, and how will they lose? It may be that for political reasons we have to do this, if only to satisfy those whose only interest is in winning a self-destructive victory. Wonderful epitaph for the Brexiters: "we won a referendum, and broke the country". If you read the forecasts, that is the future that awaits us all post Brexit. Even Patrick Minford, who is about the only serious economist to support Brexit, concedes that the impact will last decades, and his peers almost unanimously say he's over optimistic because he's getting his sums wrong! Where is the human intelligence in insisting that a bad thing must be done, on the basis that a group of people, at a single point in time, decided that is what they wanted? Especially when that group has never yet been able to put forward a rational statement of their vision for a post Brexit Britain, how it will be achieved, and how it will make the average inhabitant better off than they would be were we to remain in the EU. Seeing it through the eyes of those who won a democratic referendum is easy. Seeing the consequences of realising that victory is another matter. Ever heard of a Pyrrhic victory? When will Brexiters stop obsessing about their bleedin' referendum victory, and start asking themselves the really serious questions. Who loses if we leave? Who loses if we remain? BTW, what have you got against degrees? Seeing as all your "Experts" doom mongering has come to naught *-) .......... How can you be sure any of your other Remoaner predictions will prove to be anymore accurate? *-) ........ The only way to find out is to leave >:-) ...........and if your "Experts" predictions prove to be as accurate as they have so far.......We can expect a BREXIT BONANZA B-)............ Your shouty shouty silly soundbites of Brexit bonanza and Brexit bounce have absolutely zero substance and you continually fail to come up with anything to support your madcap tweet like responses. You're on a parallel universe detached from all form of reality. Whilst in the EU as a member state we did at least know the benefits we had and not just financial either. Outside of the EU was an unknown as you cannot go back 46 years to compare and conclude ''ooh it will just be like life in 1973 - how wonderful'' as the country has (or had) moved on since then. Both the human and financial costs of proposing to leave went ignored by the Brexit camp, but was widely recognised by Remain though i imagine few ever thought the costs would run at more than double per week than what we paid the EU. We said there would be catastrophic job losses and sure enough, thousands are now left facing a very uncertain jobless future and the figures are mounting yet Brexiters appear oblivious to this or try blaming it on the EU rather than taking responsibility for the wreckless state Brexit has plunged the country into. Brexiters trumpeted about "taking back control" but instead lost control of their senses altogether as your exit strategy was so ill thought out, you never even had a plan in place at all. You were told about Ireland but brushed that aside, you were reminded of the necessity of jit deliveries from European countries to maintain vital services as well as production, yet one Minister admitted to not realising the importance of Dover port. The list of disasters is endless. You can't get the Brexit you wanted yet still want to throw yourselves into the abyss without a parachute. If that was possible for you lot to go ahead with your suicide pact, then fine, but not when you're determined to drag the rest of the country with you. You don't want a peoples vote on what we all now know as you fear your precious Brexit would be lost forever. Here is a reminder of just 11 loony promises made which have since been quietly dropped in the hope people would forget. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2018/mar/28/11-brexit-promises-leavers-quietly-dropped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 But it hasn't Dave, has it? You misunderstood the nature of the forecasts and, although it was pointed out to you several times that your expectation that the forecasts would come true days after the referendum were hopelessly unrealistic, you continue to make the same mistake - apparently driven only by a desire to discredit them. If you'd look at the mainstream media, rather then the Brexit media, you'd see the evidence gathering that leaving the EU will not result in any kind of bonanza, just a lot of hardship for many ordinary people. Your final point is completely nuts. It is as sensible as the man who was seen swinging an axe by an experienced woodsman, who warned him not to use it as he was doing because he risked cutting off his leg. He ignored the advice and duly cut off his leg. He is now known a "hopalong", though he hopes one day to grow a new leg - despite being told by his doctor that this will not happen. Experts, eh? You used to revel in boasting that the UK was the fifth largest economy in the world (though, oddly, that information came from the same "remoaner experts", you now deride for advising us of the economic consequences for the UK if we do leave). So, how are they credible experts when they say what you want to hear, but unreliable remoaner experts when they say what you don't want to hear? Who to believe, eh? :-) But, we are where we are. You believed the economists when they said how well the UK economy compared to others, but now disbelieve them because they warn of trouble ahead. Your answer is to say "lets ignore their advice and see if they're right". If they are, it'll crash the economy, but we'll then know leaving was a bad idea. Irresponsible, or what? Yet, you seem to think you have better information, but who gives you that information you never say? Where do you get it: the fairies, a shaman, a fortune cookie? This way lies madness. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon2 Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-06-01 10:13 PM pelmetman - 2019-06-01 3:17 PM...……………………….Try seeing it through the eyes of those who won a democratic referendum Brian *-) ........ Well, what do you see, Dave? The (apparently) greatest single victory of your life crumbling before your eyes? That Brexit victory that threatens the standard of living of almost every person living in the UK being exposed for what it is. That collective mistake, that will impoverish the country for the next 20 or more years being called into question with increasing accuracy. What is it you really want? Your electoral victory, or what is in the best interests of the average working person in the UK? Who will gain if we leave, and how will they gain? Who will lose if we leave, and how will they lose? It may be that for political reasons we have to do this, if only to satisfy those whose only interest is in winning a self-destructive victory. Wonderful epitaph for the Brexiters: "we won a referendum, and broke the country". If you read the forecasts, that is the future that awaits us all post Brexit. Even Patrick Minford, who is about the only serious economist to support Brexit, concedes that the impact will last decades, and his peers almost unanimously say he's over optimistic because he's getting his sums wrong! Where is the human intelligence in insisting that a bad thing must be done, on the basis that a group of people, at a single point in time, decided that is what they wanted? Especially when that group has never yet been able to put forward a rational statement of their vision for a post Brexit Britain, how it will be achieved, and how it will make the average inhabitant better off than they would be were we to remain in the EU. Seeing it through the eyes of those who won a democratic referendum is easy. Seeing the consequences of realising that victory is another matter. Ever heard of a Pyrrhic victory? When will Brexiters stop obsessing about their bleedin' referendum victory, and start asking themselves the really serious questions. Who loses if we leave? Who loses if we remain? BTW, what have you got against degrees? For a start Brian you need to look at the map of the UK showing the votes for Brexit seats in the EU parliament. As for why we need to leave the EU it's not so much what we gain as to what we loose by remaining in what is becoming a totalitarian monolithic dictatorship, remember of course that in the past you have claimed that the EU will not need an Army so why do Macron and Mekle want one (?) .(Eurocrps?) Why are the members not considered countries but states ? We had a referendum we voted leave that should be the end of it but the minority want to have repeats until the result is reversed that's not democracy it's an example of a dictatorship mindset, our way or no way (!) *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 teflon2 - 2019-06-02 7:03 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-06-01 10:13 PM pelmetman - 2019-06-01 3:17 PM...……………………….Try seeing it through the eyes of those who won a democratic referendum Brian *-) ........ Well, what do you see, Dave? The (apparently) greatest single victory of your life crumbling before your eyes? That Brexit victory that threatens the standard of living of almost every person living in the UK being exposed for what it is. That collective mistake, that will impoverish the country for the next 20 or more years being called into question with increasing accuracy. What is it you really want? Your electoral victory, or what is in the best interests of the average working person in the UK? Who will gain if we leave, and how will they gain? Who will lose if we leave, and how will they lose? It may be that for political reasons we have to do this, if only to satisfy those whose only interest is in winning a self-destructive victory. Wonderful epitaph for the Brexiters: "we won a referendum, and broke the country". If you read the forecasts, that is the future that awaits us all post Brexit. Even Patrick Minford, who is about the only serious economist to support Brexit, concedes that the impact will last decades, and his peers almost unanimously say he's over optimistic because he's getting his sums wrong! Where is the human intelligence in insisting that a bad thing must be done, on the basis that a group of people, at a single point in time, decided that is what they wanted? Especially when that group has never yet been able to put forward a rational statement of their vision for a post Brexit Britain, how it will be achieved, and how it will make the average inhabitant better off than they would be were we to remain in the EU. Seeing it through the eyes of those who won a democratic referendum is easy. Seeing the consequences of realising that victory is another matter. Ever heard of a Pyrrhic victory? When will Brexiters stop obsessing about their bleedin' referendum victory, and start asking themselves the really serious questions. Who loses if we leave? Who loses if we remain? BTW, what have you got against degrees? For a start Brian you need to look at the map of the UK showing the votes for Brexit seats in the EU parliament. As for why we need to leave the EU it's not so much what we gain as to what we loose by remaining in what is becoming a totalitarian monolithic dictatorship, remember of course that in the past you have claimed that the EU will not need an Army so why do Macron and Mekle want one (?) .(Eurocrps?) Why are the members not considered countries but states ? We had a referendum we voted leave that should be the end of it but the minority want to have repeats until the result is reversed that's not democracy it's an example of a dictatorship mindset, our way or no way (!) *-) Why should it? If you put a deposit down on a house and the whole family agreed it was a great house, you got your mortgage sorted and were about to complete but the survey came back and said it had damp, was built on a flood plain, had subsidence and would likely fall down would you then all say "but no! we decided we liked it so we have to buy it"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 teflon2 - 2019-06-02 7:03 PM.......................We had a referendum we voted leave that should be the end of it but the minority want to have repeats until the result is reversed that's not democracy it's an example of a dictatorship mindset, our way or no way (!) *-) What is it then? What you are arguing is that slightly more than half the votes cast (not of the electorate, and not of the population) were in favour of leaving. Their reasons are varied, as may be expected in response to such a facile referendum question, but your reasons seem to me, with respect, to be at the extreme end of the range. Be that as it may, for those who think the vote is a historic mistake that will inflict a loss in living standards on a large section of the population (most probably those who voted leave), what matters is exactly what we shall lose, while those who want out can't rationally explain the benefits of leaving, save in somewhat hysterical terms. I still haven't seen a single, convincingly argued case for Brexit that would persuade me to borrow it, let alone buy it! But the argument that the Brexiters won, so everyone must leave without disagreement, no matter that they can at least present rational arguments for the downsides of Brexit is, surely, no more than the referendum victors saying to the (near) other half of the country, "its our way or no way". So, where's the democracy in that? You can't claim to be a democrat, and in the next sentence use the argument of what Quentin Hogg described as the elective dictatorship, can you? What I want is the opportunity for the electorate, democratically, to be given the opportunity, after due consideration, to consider the Brexit options now available in the light of what has happened over the past three and a half years, in Britain, Europe, and the rest of the world, and decide which, if any Brexit option they want or whether, on balance, they now think Brexit has more downsides than remain. How is that the mindset of a dictator? Have you looked up the meaning of dictator, totalitarian, or monolithic? You seem to be using words that are at total variance with my understanding of how the EU is structured. Have you also looked into what Eurocorps would actually amount to? It is no more than a European version of the UN, with pooled military resources to be used in a mutual defence pact. It is aimed at getting the free loaders to contribute their proper share of defence spending, and to standardise the means, so that the military forces of the various European states can use familiar equipment should the need arise. That desire is partially driven by Trump's threat to stop playing "big daddy" to a bunch of wealthy states who under their defence on the basis that Uncle Sam will rush to the rescue if they are attacked. The missing link is the command structure, and who (if anyone) would be able to mobilise it. Instead, it seems it would function on the reactive basis that all agree to go to the defence of any state that is attacked by external forces. Is that so nightmarish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-06-02 10:46 PM teflon2 - 2019-06-02 7:03 PM.......................We had a referendum we voted leave that should be the end of it but the minority want to have repeats until the result is reversed that's not democracy it's an example of a dictatorship mindset, our way or no way (!) *-) What is it then? What you are arguing is that slightly more than half the votes cast (not of the electorate, and not of the population) were in favour of leaving. Their reasons are varied, as may be expected in response to such a facile referendum question, but your reasons seem to me, with respect, to be at the extreme end of the range. So if there was another referendum and you won by 50.01% you wouldn't claim you'd won? *-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-06-02 2:38 PM But it hasn't Dave, has it? You misunderstood the nature of the forecasts and, although it was pointed out to you several times that your expectation that the forecasts would come true days after the referendum were hopelessly unrealistic, you continue to make the same mistake - apparently driven only by a desire to discredit them. If you'd look at the mainstream media, rather then the Brexit media, you'd see the evidence gathering that leaving the EU will not result in any kind of bonanza, just a lot of hardship for many ordinary people. Which bit of IMMEDIATE recession do you fail to understand?........ Which bit of IMMEDIATE emergency budget do you fail to understand?........ Which bit of 840,000 job loses within 3 years of the vote do you fail to understand?......... When will you accept your EXPERTS didn't just get it WRONG they got it completely and utterly WRONG *-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-06-03 8:56 AM Brian Kirby - 2019-06-02 10:46 PM teflon2 - 2019-06-02 7:03 PM.......................We had a referendum we voted leave that should be the end of it but the minority want to have repeats until the result is reversed that's not democracy it's an example of a dictatorship mindset, our way or no way (!) *-) What is it then? What you are arguing is that slightly more than half the votes cast (not of the electorate, and not of the population) were in favour of leaving. Their reasons are varied, as may be expected in response to such a facile referendum question, but your reasons seem to me, with respect, to be at the extreme end of the range. So if there was another referendum and you won by 50.01% you wouldn't claim you'd won? *-) ........ No Dave, I'd just heave a huge sigh of relief, and hope that the UK government (whoever that may be, but hopefully none of the present incompetents), would then settle down to getting the UK economy to work for the good of the population as a whole, and stop, for once and for all, using the EU as a fig leaf for policies they have promoted in Brussels but daren't admit to at home, instead blaming the unpopular bits on the EU. As to claiming "I'd won", why do that? It is clear the UK is split almost 50/50 over the EU. Why be crass, and rub the noses of the other half in their loss? They would be bound to be hacked off by the result - I see no point in making matters worse. Triumphalism doesn't repair disappointment. At least I'd be happy that the economic disadvantages of Brexit had been averted, which would (should!) at least leave future governments the income to start righting some old wrongs. High time too, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-06-03 9:02 AM Brian Kirby - 2019-06-02 2:38 PM But it hasn't Dave, has it? You misunderstood the nature of the forecasts and, although it was pointed out to you several times that your expectation that the forecasts would come true days after the referendum were hopelessly unrealistic, you continue to make the same mistake - apparently driven only by a desire to discredit them. If you'd look at the mainstream media, rather then the Brexit media, you'd see the evidence gathering that leaving the EU will not result in any kind of bonanza, just a lot of hardship for many ordinary people. Which bit of IMMEDIATE recession do you fail to understand?........ Which bit of IMMEDIATE emergency budget do you fail to understand?........ Which bit of 840,000 job loses within 3 years of the vote do you fail to understand?......... When will you accept your EXPERTS didn't just get it WRONG they got it completely and utterly WRONG *-) .......... And which bit of "assuming we immediately leave the EU" do you fail to understand? May I point out that we still haven't left, so those forecasts remain irrelevant to our present circumstances, and that there is growing evidence that just the anticipation of Brexit is now having an adverse impact on the UK economy. The fat lady has not yet got on the stage, leave alone sung! If the Brexit gang had been 10% as clever as that thought they were in 2016, we would by now have left, and we'd all be rolling in the "proceeds". The reason we are not, is that the Brexit gang were not even that 10% clever, made huge, over simplified, assumptions on the basis of no evidence at all, and totally cocked the whole thing up. It's what predictably happens when charlatans peddle snake oil. Get rid of the charlatans, and bring in some people with the humility to accept good advice, and you might have had some chance of formulating a Brexit settlement that gained wider public support. That chance is now gone. Whether Brexit, of any kind, is now a possibility is an open question, but the prospects are reducing by the day, and so are the post Brexit prospects for the UK should we leave in the state of utter chaos we have now entered. Some victory! Rousing chorus of Rule Britannia, here, please! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-06-03 2:11 PM And which bit of "assuming we immediately leave the EU" do you fail to understand? You clearly have ignored the FACT that those predictions were based on what would happen AFTER THE VOTE........NOT after we leave *-) .......... "These findings sit within the range of what is now an overwhelming weight of published estimates for this short-term impact, which all find that UK GDP would be lower ****************following a vote to leave.**************** The analysis also presents a downside scenario, finding that the shock could be much more profound, meaning the effect on the economy would be worse still. The rise in uncertainty could be amplified, the volatility in financial markets more tumultuous, and the extent of the impact to living standards more acute. In this severe scenario, GDP would be 6% smaller, there would be a deeper recession, and the number of people made unemployed would rise by around 800,000 compared with a vote to remain. The hit to wages, inflation, house prices and borrowing would be larger. There is a credible risk that this more acute scenario could materialise. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524967/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon2 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-06-02 10:46 PM teflon2 - 2019-06-02 7:03 PM.......................We had a referendum we voted leave that should be the end of it but the minority want to have repeats until the result is reversed that's not democracy it's an example of a dictatorship mindset, our way or no way (!) *-) What is it then? What you are arguing is that slightly more than half the votes cast (not of the electorate, and not of the population) were in favour of leaving. Their reasons are varied, as may be expected in response to such a facile referendum question, but your reasons seem to me, with respect, to be at the extreme end of the range. Be that as it may, for those who think the vote is a historic mistake that will inflict a loss in living standards on a large section of the population (most probably those who voted leave), what matters is exactly what we shall lose, while those who want out can't rationally explain the benefits of leaving, save in somewhat hysterical terms. I still haven't seen a single, convincingly argued case for Brexit that would persuade me to borrow it, let alone buy it! But the argument that the Brexiters won, so everyone must leave without disagreement, no matter that they can at least present rational arguments for the downsides of Brexit is, surely, no more than the referendum victors saying to the (near) other half of the country, "its our way or no way". So, where's the democracy in that? You can't claim to be a democrat, and in the next sentence use the argument of what Quentin Hogg described as the elective dictatorship, can you? What I want is the opportunity for the electorate, democratically, to be given the opportunity, after due consideration, to consider the Brexit options now available in the light of what has happened over the past three and a half years, in Britain, Europe, and the rest of the world, and decide which, if any Brexit option they want or whether, on balance, they now think Brexit has more downsides than remain. How is that the mindset of a dictator? Have you looked up the meaning of dictator, totalitarian, or monolithic? You seem to be using words that are at total variance with my understanding of how the EU is structured. Have you also looked into what Eurocorps would actually amount to? It is no more than a European version of the UN, with pooled military resources to be used in a mutual defence pact. It is aimed at getting the free loaders to contribute their proper share of defence spending, and to standardise the means, so that the military forces of the various European states can use familiar equipment should the need arise. That desire is partially driven by Trump's threat to stop playing "big daddy" to a bunch of wealthy states who under their defence on the basis that Uncle Sam will rush to the rescue if they are attacked. The missing link is the command structure, and who (if anyone) would be able to mobilise it. Instead, it seems it would function on the reactive basis that all agree to go to the defence of any state that is attacked by external forces. Is that so nightmarish? Everyone who was eligible to vote had the opportunity, that some did not take that opportunity does not in anyway invalidate that the majority who voted voted leave this is called democracy what you want is to have your own way despite being part of the minority this is egotistical. ie only you know what is right. Eurocorps is a military organisation and in 1992 placed their army corps at the disposal of NATO. Dont take my word for it just google Eurocorps then go to about us then history. There is no missing command structure it's on the same website. The core structure of Eurocorps consists of France, Germany, Belgium, Spain, and Luxembourg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 teflon2 - 2019-06-03 7:20 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-06-02 10:46 PM teflon2 - 2019-06-02 7:03 PM.......................We had a referendum we voted leave that should be the end of it but the minority want to have repeats until the result is reversed that's not democracy it's an example of a dictatorship mindset, our way or no way (!) *-) What is it then? What you are arguing is that slightly more than half the votes cast (not of the electorate, and not of the population) were in favour of leaving. Their reasons are varied, as may be expected in response to such a facile referendum question, but your reasons seem to me, with respect, to be at the extreme end of the range. Be that as it may, for those who think the vote is a historic mistake that will inflict a loss in living standards on a large section of the population (most probably those who voted leave), what matters is exactly what we shall lose, while those who want out can't rationally explain the benefits of leaving, save in somewhat hysterical terms. I still haven't seen a single, convincingly argued case for Brexit that would persuade me to borrow it, let alone buy it! But the argument that the Brexiters won, so everyone must leave without disagreement, no matter that they can at least present rational arguments for the downsides of Brexit is, surely, no more than the referendum victors saying to the (near) other half of the country, "its our way or no way". So, where's the democracy in that? You can't claim to be a democrat, and in the next sentence use the argument of what Quentin Hogg described as the elective dictatorship, can you? What I want is the opportunity for the electorate, democratically, to be given the opportunity, after due consideration, to consider the Brexit options now available in the light of what has happened over the past three and a half years, in Britain, Europe, and the rest of the world, and decide which, if any Brexit option they want or whether, on balance, they now think Brexit has more downsides than remain. How is that the mindset of a dictator? Have you looked up the meaning of dictator, totalitarian, or monolithic? You seem to be using words that are at total variance with my understanding of how the EU is structured. Have you also looked into what Eurocorps would actually amount to? It is no more than a European version of the UN, with pooled military resources to be used in a mutual defence pact. It is aimed at getting the free loaders to contribute their proper share of defence spending, and to standardise the means, so that the military forces of the various European states can use familiar equipment should the need arise. That desire is partially driven by Trump's threat to stop playing "big daddy" to a bunch of wealthy states who under their defence on the basis that Uncle Sam will rush to the rescue if they are attacked. The missing link is the command structure, and who (if anyone) would be able to mobilise it. Instead, it seems it would function on the reactive basis that all agree to go to the defence of any state that is attacked by external forces. Is that so nightmarish? Everyone who was eligible to vote had the opportunity, that some did not take that opportunity does not in anyway invalidate that the majority who voted voted leave this is called democracy what you want is to have your own way despite being part of the minority this is egotistical. ie only you know what is right. Remember Tef it was actually an advisory referendum and not legally binding which means another referendum could be run if Parliament decided to. A50 can also still be revoked. The fact that a lot has changed over the past three and a half years with the electorate much better informed than they were, i believe if Parliament put everything they now have back to the electorate, the vote would be to Remain. The more fanatical Brexiters believe it wouldn't....yet oddly fear the prospect of a peoples vote looming. This hardly fills the most ardent Brexiteer with confidence does it? After all, if so positive....what could you possibly lose? Eurocorps is a military organisation and in 1992 placed their army corps at the disposal of NATO. Dont take my word for it just google Eurocorps then go to about us then history. There is no missing command structure it's on the same website. The core structure of Eurocorps consists of France, Germany, Belgium, Spain, and Luxembourg. So where were you and other folk 27 years ago who are now crowing about this? Absolutely nobody said anything about Eurocorp then or at any time during the past 27 years.....so why all of a sudden are you and a few others jumping up and down excitedly about something which has been in existence for so long? They've engaged in four different NATO operations and two EU over that period.....yet not so much as a pip squeak of wailing protest was heard from any of you then. Why not.....and why now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 teflon2 - 2019-06-03 7:20 PM.............................The core structure of Eurocorps consists of France, Germany, Belgium, Spain, and Luxembourg. Which was my point. What do they do, take it in turns to give orders? Do they need government approval to do this? Do they need unanimous approval from all governments? Can one government challenge an order given by another? Can the Luxemburg government countermand a German order? Are they all going to march on Russia, or will Luxemburg go it alone? Is this really a convincing military command structure? And this worries you? Monty Python was more of a threat to European stability! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-06-03 4:38 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-06-03 2:11 PM And which bit of "assuming we immediately leave the EU" do you fail to understand? You clearly have ignored the FACT that those predictions were based on what would happen AFTER THE VOTE........NOT after we leave *-) .......... "These findings sit within the range of what is now an overwhelming weight of published estimates for this short-term impact, which all find that UK GDP would be lower ****************following a vote to leave.**************** The analysis also presents a downside scenario, finding that the shock could be much more profound, meaning the effect on the economy would be worse still. The rise in uncertainty could be amplified, the volatility in financial markets more tumultuous, and the extent of the impact to living standards more acute. In this severe scenario, GDP would be 6% smaller, there would be a deeper recession, and the number of people made unemployed would rise by around 800,000 compared with a vote to remain. The hit to wages, inflation, house prices and borrowing would be larger. There is a credible risk that this more acute scenario could materialise. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524967/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf Gawd, how I wish you'd learn to use tinyurl!!! :-D It is because, at the time the forecasts the government relied were drawn up, the central assumption was that we would leave leave soon after the referendum vote. I've made the relevant bit of the url bold to help you see what they were basing their forecasts on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 teflon2 - 2019-06-03 7:20 PM.....................….Everyone who was eligible to vote had the opportunity, that some did not take that opportunity does not in anyway invalidate that the majority who voted voted leave this is called democracy what you want is to have your own way despite being part of the minority this is egotistical. ie only you know what is right...…………... Indeed, and I respect their opinions as expressed in the referendum. That does not mean that I agree with them: I do not. I think, based on almost unanimous economists' opinions, that leaving the EU will make the UK poorer. I do not see that as in anyone's best interests. A majority that tries to silence dissent is not democratic, the more so when it is a small majority of voters who are threatening the living standards of the majority of the population. In simple terms, history shows that majorities have no monopoly on being right. In the case of leaving the EU I think the majority are wrong. So what, I should now just say "oh, OK, that is what you think, so it is now what I think"? When, in history, have people been that dumb? Dissent is a necessary part of a working democracy. Why else do governments need opposition to sharpen their wits? Do you automatically agree with the actions of every democratically elected government that comes along, on the basis that they were elected by a majority of the voters, and have a majority in parliament? Would that be egotistical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-06-03 10:55 PM Do you automatically agree with the actions of every democratically elected government that comes along, on the basis that they were elected by a majority of the voters, and have a majority in parliament? Would that be egotistical? Have you ever spent the following 3 years after a election trying to get the vote overturned? *-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-06-03 10:32 PM pelmetman - 2019-06-03 4:38 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-06-03 2:11 PM And which bit of "assuming we immediately leave the EU" do you fail to understand? You clearly have ignored the FACT that those predictions were based on what would happen AFTER THE VOTE........NOT after we leave *-) .......... "These findings sit within the range of what is now an overwhelming weight of published estimates for this short-term impact, which all find that UK GDP would be lower ****************following a vote to leave.**************** The analysis also presents a downside scenario, finding that the shock could be much more profound, meaning the effect on the economy would be worse still. The rise in uncertainty could be amplified, the volatility in financial markets more tumultuous, and the extent of the impact to living standards more acute. In this severe scenario, GDP would be 6% smaller, there would be a deeper recession, and the number of people made unemployed would rise by around 800,000 compared with a vote to remain. The hit to wages, inflation, house prices and borrowing would be larger. There is a credible risk that this more acute scenario could materialise. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524967/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf Gawd, how I wish you'd learn to use tinyurl!!! :-D It is because, at the time the forecasts the government relied were drawn up, the central assumption was that we would leave leave soon after the referendum vote. I've made the relevant bit of the url bold to help you see what they were basing their forecasts on. Rubbish! *-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-06-04 7:23 AM Brian Kirby - 2019-06-03 10:32 PM pelmetman - 2019-06-03 4:38 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-06-03 2:11 PM And which bit of "assuming we immediately leave the EU" do you fail to understand? You clearly have ignored the FACT that those predictions were based on what would happen AFTER THE VOTE........NOT after we leave *-) .......... "These findings sit within the range of what is now an overwhelming weight of published estimates for this short-term impact, which all find that UK GDP would be lower ****************following a vote to leave.**************** The analysis also presents a downside scenario, finding that the shock could be much more profound, meaning the effect on the economy would be worse still. The rise in uncertainty could be amplified, the volatility in financial markets more tumultuous, and the extent of the impact to living standards more acute. In this severe scenario, GDP would be 6% smaller, there would be a deeper recession, and the number of people made unemployed would rise by around 800,000 compared with a vote to remain. The hit to wages, inflation, house prices and borrowing would be larger. There is a credible risk that this more acute scenario could materialise. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524967/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf Gawd, how I wish you'd learn to use tinyurl!!! :-D It is because, at the time the forecasts the government relied were drawn up, the central assumption was that we would leave leave soon after the referendum vote. I've made the relevant bit of the url bold to help you see what they were basing their forecasts on. Rubbish! *-) .......... To the part of the link Brian emboldened to help you out? So are you now saying your own link was "rubbish"? (lol) Never mind......Brian will be along to straighten you out with some logic. Btw this is tinyurl; https://tinyurl.com/ Bookmark it and remember to use the damn thing next time to avoid spreadsheet posts. *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-06-04 11:23 AM pelmetman - 2019-06-04 7:23 AM Brian Kirby - 2019-06-03 10:32 PM pelmetman - 2019-06-03 4:38 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-06-03 2:11 PM And which bit of "assuming we immediately leave the EU" do you fail to understand? You clearly have ignored the FACT that those predictions were based on what would happen AFTER THE VOTE........NOT after we leave *-) .......... "These findings sit within the range of what is now an overwhelming weight of published estimates for this short-term impact, which all find that UK GDP would be lower ****************following a vote to leave.**************** The analysis also presents a downside scenario, finding that the shock could be much more profound, meaning the effect on the economy would be worse still. The rise in uncertainty could be amplified, the volatility in financial markets more tumultuous, and the extent of the impact to living standards more acute. In this severe scenario, GDP would be 6% smaller, there would be a deeper recession, and the number of people made unemployed would rise by around 800,000 compared with a vote to remain. The hit to wages, inflation, house prices and borrowing would be larger. There is a credible risk that this more acute scenario could materialise. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524967/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf Gawd, how I wish you'd learn to use tinyurl!!! :-D It is because, at the time the forecasts the government relied were drawn up, the central assumption was that we would leave leave soon after the referendum vote. I've made the relevant bit of the url bold to help you see what they were basing their forecasts on. Rubbish! *-) .......... To the part of the link Brian emboldened to help you out? So are you now saying your own link was "rubbish"? (lol) Never mind......Brian will be along to straighten you out with some logic. Btw this is tinyurl; https://tinyurl.com/ Bookmark it and remember to use the damn thing next time to avoid spreadsheet posts. *-) Another one who cant grasp the meaning of ......"Following a Vote to leave" *-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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