Deneb Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Derek Uzzell - 2019-07-16 7:17 AM If that procedure does not clear the fault, then (as Deneb has said) more sophisticated testing will be needed, Alternatively, the not-unreasonable assumption is made that the problem lies with the instrument-cluster itself and a specialist repairer is contacted. (mikefitz’s posting of 27 June 2019 2:19 PM above). Removing a 2008 Ducato’s instrument-cluster is (literally) a 5-minute task as described here https://www.lockwoodinternational.co.uk/media/wysiwyg/instructions/Fiat/C120_C124_Etc_Fiat_Ducato.pdf Actuation checks using MultiEcuScan would point towards or rule out the cluster. By driving the gauges from MES, it is possible to test whether the cluster is capable of receiving signals to those gauges and moving the needles accordingly. If not, it would suggest the cluster as a likely culprit, but if the tests show the gauges to be functioning when driven by diagnostic signals, it is likely the fault is elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witzend Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 pyrie - 2019-06-27 2:37 PM Unfortunately I've no idea how to remove the instrument cluster. I think I'd need to visit a local vehicle electronics business. Simple just a few screws and a multi electric connector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrie Posted July 21, 2019 Author Share Posted July 21, 2019 Thanks to all for input. When i have time I'll try the battery disconnect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 Keithl - 2019-06-27 7:58 PM laimeduck - 2019-06-27 7:01 PM How did your van pass the MOT without a working Speedo? Simple, because the tester does not have to test it! From the MOT testers manual, https://www.mot-testing.service.gov.uk/documents/manuals/class3457/Section-7-Other-equipment.html#section_7.8 "7.8 Speedometer You must check the speedometer of vehicles first used on or after 1 October 1937 with a maximum speed above 25mph. You do not need to check Class 3 vehicles. If a road test is needed, for example to carry out a decelerometer test, you must check whilst driving that the speedometer is working. If a road test is not necessary, you should only reject a speedometer if it’s clearly not working." So unless the tester spots it is not actually working you will get a pass! Keith. Bizarre! How can one test the brakes without either a decelerometer (which requires the vehicle to be driven) or a roller brake tester (which involves running the engine and rotating the wheels). Surely, if the engine is running and the wheels are turning, the speedometer must react? The second bold para above clearly implies that a functioning speedometer is part of the test - otherwise how could the tester know if it is working or not? Might it be an intermittent fault, and the Gods smiled at the time of the test? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-07-21 11:20 AM Bizarre! How can one test the brakes without either a decelerometer (which requires the vehicle to be driven) or a roller brake tester (which involves running the engine and rotating the wheels). Surely, if the engine is running and the wheels are turning, the speedometer must react? Roller brake testers rotate the wheels very slowly. On some vehicles the speedometer may not react until a minimum speed is reached. In addition, whilst the vehicle is on a roller brake tester, the person carrying out the test is supposed to be watching the gauges on the brake tester for issues which may indicate problems with the braking system such as an imbalance across the axle, grab, brake ovality etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrie Posted July 21, 2019 Author Share Posted July 21, 2019 All, managed to spend a few hours at the van (secure caravan site). Followed instructions to the letter disconnect the battery. As soon as the negative was off something in the fuse box behind driver's seat started to beep. Continued with disconnection, and time frames. Didn't work. Used a cheap multiecuscan which only told me many things were N/A or READY.... only two buttons nothing to "test". Proceeded to access the instrument cluster. Removed torx screws and lifted off cover, mount for one screw appears to be already broken. Removed torx screw holding unit in place, lifted out. Unplugged. I thought to myself... Let's plug it back in and check.... Turned the ignition on...hey presto we have a rev counter!!!! Reassembled, covered battery, drove around site.... Speedometer and I'm guessing the engine temp are still not registering. Did not give enough time for engine to warm up with 1 lap of site. However rev counter was doing its thing. I'm not a wires person so no idea where the loom goes or how to test these wires for breakage. Perhaps unplug and replug again *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 Deneb - 2019-07-21 11:44 AM Brian Kirby - 2019-07-21 11:20 AM Bizarre! How can one test the brakes without either a decelerometer (which requires the vehicle to be driven) or a roller brake tester (which involves running the engine and rotating the wheels). Surely, if the engine is running and the wheels are turning, the speedometer must react? Roller brake testers rotate the wheels very slowly. On some vehicles the speedometer may not react until a minimum speed is reached. In addition, whilst the vehicle is on a roller brake tester, the person carrying out the test is supposed to be watching the gauges on the brake tester for issues which may indicate problems with the braking system such as an imbalance across the axle, grab, brake ovality etc. So, the tester should presumably have satisfied himself otherwise that the speedometer was working? Must have been Brian's lucky day! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witzend Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-07-21 11:20 AM Surely, if the engine is running and the wheels are turning, the speedometer must react? The speedo works from the gearbox during MOT the wheels are turned by the brake test rollers gearbox in neutral so no speedo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 witzend - 2019-07-21 11:18 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-07-21 11:20 AM Surely, if the engine is running and the wheels are turning, the speedometer must react? The speedo works from the gearbox during MOT the wheels are turned by the brake test rollers gearbox in neutral so no speedo Sorry but I have to disagree! The speedo drive will be from one of two places, the gearbox output shaft on older vehicles or, more likely on newer vehicles, from the ABS ECU. And no matter whether the gearbox is in neutral or a gear the speedo will ALWAYS read. Have you never put the gearbox into neutral going down a hill or when slowing up for a junction? The speedo continues reading right up until the vehicle stops. I agree that on, say, a front wheel drive car the speedo may not register if the rear wheels only are turned, but it should then register when the front wheels are turned. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 On the X250/290 Ducato the speedometer signal is obtained from the ABS ECU as Keith suggests. It is sent to the Body Computer which performs various calculations and checks on the signal before driving a stepper motor at the speedometer. It should be noted though that although the current MOT test manual requires the tester to check that the speedometer is working, it does not require a specific procedure to be carried out to complete the check, for instance it does not state that a road test must be carried out, only that the speedometer must be checked during a road test if it has to be carried out for another purpose - a very rare occurrence now that testing stations have to be equipped with roller brake testers. The manual goes on to state that, if a road test is not required, the speedometer should only be rejected if it is clearly not working. Whilst it is possible that the speedometer on many vehicles could be checked for movement of the dial whilst the vehicle is on a roller brake tester, as I mentioned previously the tester's eye is supposed to be on the indications being given by the brake tester gauges whilst the vehicle is on the rollers. A more suitable point might be whilst the vehicle is being driven into or out of the test bay. I don't know what guidance is given to testers under special notices or other supplementary information regarding speedometers, but there are added complications in that the ECE regulations covering the requirement for fitting and performance of speedometers, do not require them to be fitted to vehicles incapable of exceeding 25mph/40kmh. Whilst that does not apply to motorhomes, vans or passenger cars, the criteria for the measurement of the accuracy of the speedometer under the same regulations only requires the instrument to be tested at speeds of 40kmh (25mph) and above. The MOT manual instructs the tester that they should only fail a speedometer if it is clearly not working. It may be that supplementary instructions tell testers to disregard any lack of indication from a speedometer unless they have had the opportunity to drive the vehicle at more than 25mph, although I am only speculating here. It may be that with everything else that a tester has to do in a defined order during the test, he simply forgot to check the speedometer. Or it may be that although he should not have done so, the tester turned a blind eye. I don't know Pyrie's relationship with his tester, but it might have been disregarded on the expectation that he would fix it? Whilst not within the letter of the law, it happens ;-) And finally, as I mentioned in my previous post, having driven literally hundreds of different vehicles over the course of my work I have encountered vehicles on which the speedometer did not give any indication until a minimum speed had been attained. All of this is rather moot however, as Pyrie stated that he informed the tester that his speedometer was not working from the outset! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 Pyrie’s motorhome was to be MOT-tested and serviced. The garage that was to do the servicing would not be carrying out the MOT test that would take place before the service. Pyrie warned the garage that the motorhome’s speedometer was not working, but presumably this information was not relayed to the MOT testing station. If the MOT inspector had been made aware of the defect, it’s probable that the motorhome would have (rightly) failed the test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrie Posted July 22, 2019 Author Share Posted July 22, 2019 Deneb - 2019-07-22 10:26 AM Or it may be that although he should not have done so, the tester turned a blind eye. I don't know Pyrie's relationship with his tester, but it might have been disregarded on the expectation that he would fix it? Whilst not within the letter of the law, it happens ;-) And finally, as I mentioned in my previous post, having driven literally hundreds of different vehicles over the course of my work I have encountered vehicles on which the speedometer did not give any indication until a minimum speed had been attained. All of this is rather moot however, as Pyrie stated that he informed the tester that his speedometer was not working from the outset! I had the van serviced and MOTd the year after I bought it third hand... May 2016. 2017 and 2018 it was not serviced due to low mileage only MOTd at a county council testing facility (different sites). During a sunny April of this current year I washed the van... Then noticed after a 20 mile drive that the engine temp not working. A few weeks later in May I took it for a service and MOT, same place as 2016. It was only when leaving the storage site I noticed the speedometer and rev counter along with temp sensor not working. I had already during booking the service mentioned that the temp sensor needed to be looked at. On arrival I added the information about the other two dials After service (and MOT) the garage indicated they could do nothing and gave me the name of an auto electric place...which costs a lot of money... And I thought I'd ask here first for helpful advice. Sadly I know no one in the autotrade... I wish i did after recently having a spring fail on my car... Garage fixed it within 24 hours.. Only for the repair to be a bodge (according to breakdown service) as whatever they didn't do right knackered my driveshaft!!! And this was a dealership service team!!!! Just setting the record straight :-) guess I was lucky with MOT but I need it fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenSte Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 Did you ever find the outcome to your problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrie Posted February 17, 2020 Author Share Posted February 17, 2020 Hi, I think we conversed via email from fiat forum. Cartronix found a fault with the dials sticking and replaced them. Tested today during a drive and all 4 dials working (speed,rev,engine temp,fuel). Regards Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrie Posted May 3, 2020 Author Share Posted May 3, 2020 A month after receiving my fixed instrument panel, I started up the van.... And two of the dials are not working. Ironically, speedometer and fuel gauge are now fine, however rev counter and engine temp are not. The rev counter was previously fine. I emailed the repairer (mentioned previously ) and here is there response "Unfortunately if you leave these vehicles standing for long periods of time the motors that control the needles seize. We can take a look, if they are motors that we have already replaced we will do the repair under warranty, if they are ones that have not previously been replaced there will be a further charge. The only way to stop this happening in the future is to start up the vehicle every week or two to free the needles. " >:-) I frequently pass a storage depot where there are 100+ vans apparently new and laid up for months, presumably waiting to brought into action... One wonders if these would have similar issues or is the repairer talking cow dung.?? I opted to dismantle the instrument panel, plugged it in, nudged the dials and they started to jump, flicking and provide readings. Thoughts anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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