Guest pelmetman Posted September 22, 2019 Share Posted September 22, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-09-21 10:24 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-21 9:06 AM Brian Kirby - 2019-09-20 10:44 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-18 9:12 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-09-18 9:06 PM Barryd999 - 2019-09-18 5:50 PM teflon2 - 2019-09-18 4:29 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-09-17 10:16 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-16 1:33 PM...........................……….. My point is that the EU has obviously done a border fudge in Cyprus ;-) ........... So there's no damn reason why they cant do the same for the Irish :-| .......... They're just using it as an excuse to cling on to their UK meal ticket *-) .......... Dave, I don't think you've read and understood you own quote. Go back and read it again. Barry is right, there is a hard border between north and south Cyprus, and there is no hard border between Ireland and NI, and the Belfast Agreement says, in terms, there shall not be one. There is no equivalence between Cyprus (which, as your quote confirms, is within the EU) and Northern Ireland (which is currently also within the EU). The Cyprus problem is that the EU does not recognise the independent status of North Cyprus, regarding both north and south as being a unified state. Since North Cyprus does not itself recognise its membership of the EU the border is maintained and, as your quote again confirms, the normal EU provisions for passage of people, goods, and finance across internal borders does not take place. Cyprus is a mess. What would be the point in creating another similar mess that in ay case would not solve the different NI border issue? I can see why you didn't pursue a career in the Foreign Office or the Diplomatic Service! :-D You could try Cyprus Holiday Adviser for the correct information. There is no hindrance on border crossing between the South and North of Cyprus. ie. it's a soft border exactly what the ROI and Northern Ireland want. You know a border that only exists on paper. Its still a border with manned checkpoints and passport checks. http://www.cyprus44.com/holidays/border-crossings.asp Quite! This don't 'arf get 'ard, don't it? And that is the point. It is a closed border with checks at crossing points, which is exactly what the Belfast Agreement says shall not exist between NI and the Republic. There is no equivalence. Go figure! :-D Quite!!! *-) ...... Its a border manned by Cypriot Greeks and Cypriot Turks ;-) ...... All within the EU!!!!!!!! (lol) (lol) (lol) ........ Kinda piss's on your EU pompous pile dont it Brian? >:-) ......... I wonder how they keep a check on that trade the EU is "Apparently" so worried about? :D ........ Reality check? Have a little read here, http://tinyurl.com/yyu83tl9 plus as many of the kinked articles as you feel you can cope with, and then explain to us all how the Cyprus border issue is in any way equivalent to that in Ireland. But don't forget to take note of the description of the Cyprus border (i.e. barbed wire and concrete, with watch towers, and limited crossing points), and the UN administered "green line", as they exist at present. Oh, I know, it's equivalent because it's called a border! Yep: for sure that'll do. :-D 1 The point is ;-) ..........It's a border on a Island that is "in the EU" 8-) ......... You know that EU where they have free movement from one EU country to another :-| ......... Yet they ALLOW an internal border between the North & South >:-) ........If they're prepared to fudge that border....... 2 Why not treat the NI border the same? *-) ......... 3 But we all know why don't we???..........The EU doesn't get 12 billion a year from Cyprus or the Greeks (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... So 1, is, as I suggested, "because it's called a border", and 2 is because Neither Cyprus nor the Greeks pay as much into the EU budget as the UK pays? 1 Was predictable (and was predicted!). 3 Defies all logic. Usually you do deals with those who pay you the most, and are less flexible in dealing with those who want money from you - unless, of course, they have alternative assets that can bring to the party, which sadly, in the case of Greece and/or Cyprus, seems improbable in the extreme. In your reasoning you turn away from one of your big creditors and fall over yourself to favour one of your biggest debtors. Dave, do not seek a career in financial services. :-D 2 Is answered when/if you read the link I posted about the Cyprus border and how it operates under present circumstances, and compare that with the a) Belfast Agreement, b) The Common Travel Area, and c) the NI-Republic border as it would have to operate should Britain leave the EU. So, as before, and as it was your selected example, please explain how you can see equivalence there. I note you offered no explanation above as to how the Cyprus border, as described in that link, could be equivalent to the NI-Republic border, nor how constructing a Cyprus style border between NI and the Republic without land swaps, constructing it of barbed wire and concrete, incorporating border check points - as the Cyprus border is described as being - might fit in with the Belfast Agreement. I'll let you off explaining the presence of the "Green Line" and why it is still under UN administration, as that might be a bit OTT between NI and Ireland. Yet again, Brexiter unicorns come to mind! :-D Cyprus border? Phooey! You forget ;-) .........NI High court has already p*ssed on the EU's and your parade :D ........ "The high court in Belfast has dismissed claims that a no-deal Brexit and the imposition of a hard border would damage the Northern Ireland peace process." https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/12/northern-irish-court-dismisses-case-against-no-deal-brexit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 22, 2019 Share Posted September 22, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-09-21 10:24 PM 3 Defies all logic. Usually you do deals with those who pay you the most, and are less flexible in dealing with those who want money from you - unless, of course, they have alternative assets that can bring to the party, which sadly, in the case of Greece and/or Cyprus, seems improbable in the extreme. In your reasoning you turn away from one of your big creditors and fall over yourself to favour one of your biggest debtors. Dave, do not seek a career in financial services. :-D The EU is an Empire builder.......Their currency is countries *-) ......... Which is why they're using threats to try to prevent us from leaving :-| ........ Plus we also happen to be their second biggest meal ticket and will prolly go bust after we've left >:-) ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 22, 2019 Share Posted September 22, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-09-22 10:08 AM Brian Kirby - 2019-09-21 10:24 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-21 9:06 AM Brian Kirby - 2019-09-20 10:44 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-18 9:12 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-09-18 9:06 PM Barryd999 - 2019-09-18 5:50 PM teflon2 - 2019-09-18 4:29 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-09-17 10:16 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-16 1:33 PM...........................……….. My point is that the EU has obviously done a border fudge in Cyprus ;-) ........... So there's no damn reason why they cant do the same for the Irish :-| .......... They're just using it as an excuse to cling on to their UK meal ticket *-) .......... Dave, I don't think you've read and understood you own quote. Go back and read it again. Barry is right, there is a hard border between north and south Cyprus, and there is no hard border between Ireland and NI, and the Belfast Agreement says, in terms, there shall not be one. There is no equivalence between Cyprus (which, as your quote confirms, is within the EU) and Northern Ireland (which is currently also within the EU). The Cyprus problem is that the EU does not recognise the independent status of North Cyprus, regarding both north and south as being a unified state. Since North Cyprus does not itself recognise its membership of the EU the border is maintained and, as your quote again confirms, the normal EU provisions for passage of people, goods, and finance across internal borders does not take place. Cyprus is a mess. What would be the point in creating another similar mess that in ay case would not solve the different NI border issue? I can see why you didn't pursue a career in the Foreign Office or the Diplomatic Service! :-D You could try Cyprus Holiday Adviser for the correct information. There is no hindrance on border crossing between the South and North of Cyprus. ie. it's a soft border exactly what the ROI and Northern Ireland want. You know a border that only exists on paper. Its still a border with manned checkpoints and passport checks. http://www.cyprus44.com/holidays/border-crossings.asp Quite! This don't 'arf get 'ard, don't it? And that is the point. It is a closed border with checks at crossing points, which is exactly what the Belfast Agreement says shall not exist between NI and the Republic. There is no equivalence. Go figure! :-D Quite!!! *-) ...... Its a border manned by Cypriot Greeks and Cypriot Turks ;-) ...... All within the EU!!!!!!!! (lol) (lol) (lol) ........ Kinda piss's on your EU pompous pile dont it Brian? >:-) ......... I wonder how they keep a check on that trade the EU is "Apparently" so worried about? :D ........ Reality check? Have a little read here, http://tinyurl.com/yyu83tl9 plus as many of the kinked articles as you feel you can cope with, and then explain to us all how the Cyprus border issue is in any way equivalent to that in Ireland. But don't forget to take note of the description of the Cyprus border (i.e. barbed wire and concrete, with watch towers, and limited crossing points), and the UN administered "green line", as they exist at present. Oh, I know, it's equivalent because it's called a border! Yep: for sure that'll do. :-D 1 The point is ;-) ..........It's a border on a Island that is "in the EU" 8-) ......... You know that EU where they have free movement from one EU country to another :-| ......... Yet they ALLOW an internal border between the North & South >:-) ........If they're prepared to fudge that border....... 2 Why not treat the NI border the same? *-) ......... 3 But we all know why don't we???..........The EU doesn't get 12 billion a year from Cyprus or the Greeks (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... So 1, is, as I suggested, "because it's called a border", and 2 is because Neither Cyprus nor the Greeks pay as much into the EU budget as the UK pays? 1 Was predictable (and was predicted!). 3 Defies all logic. Usually you do deals with those who pay you the most, and are less flexible in dealing with those who want money from you - unless, of course, they have alternative assets that can bring to the party, which sadly, in the case of Greece and/or Cyprus, seems improbable in the extreme. In your reasoning you turn away from one of your big creditors and fall over yourself to favour one of your biggest debtors. Dave, do not seek a career in financial services. :-D 2 Is answered when/if you read the link I posted about the Cyprus border and how it operates under present circumstances, and compare that with the a) Belfast Agreement, b) The Common Travel Area, and c) the NI-Republic border as it would have to operate should Britain leave the EU. So, as before, and as it was your selected example, please explain how you can see equivalence there. I note you offered no explanation above as to how the Cyprus border, as described in that link, could be equivalent to the NI-Republic border, nor how constructing a Cyprus style border between NI and the Republic without land swaps, constructing it of barbed wire and concrete, incorporating border check points - as the Cyprus border is described as being - might fit in with the Belfast Agreement. I'll let you off explaining the presence of the "Green Line" and why it is still under UN administration, as that might be a bit OTT between NI and Ireland. Yet again, Brexiter unicorns come to mind! :-D Cyprus border? Phooey! You forget ;-) .........NI High court has already p*ssed on the EU's and your parade :D ........ "The high court in Belfast has dismissed claims that a no-deal Brexit and the imposition of a hard border would damage the Northern Ireland peace process." https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/12/northern-irish-court-dismisses-case-against-no-deal-brexit No Dave, I haven't, and the NI high court has only ruled on a legal point that a hard border would damage the peace process, and so would be illegal; saying that the decision on that is a political one, not a legal one. In other words the consequences would be for politicians to face, and not the courts. But his decision is now being appealed to the Supreme Court, so is not the final word. But a clear warning has been issued, so if the hard border is installed, and the reactions by the para-militaries are as forecast, those who took those "political decisions" in the face of such clear warnings, when there was no over-riding imperative for them to do so, will find themselves in a very difficult place, legally, regarding whether they took proper account of the warnings before reaching their decisions. But you still haven't answered my question above regarding your claimed equivalence between the NI and Cyprus borders, instead seeking to introduce a completely different point. Nice, but predictable, try! :-D So, one thing at a time. Where is that equivalence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-09-22 6:29 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-22 10:08 AM Brian Kirby - 2019-09-21 10:24 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-21 9:06 AM Brian Kirby - 2019-09-20 10:44 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-18 9:12 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-09-18 9:06 PM Barryd999 - 2019-09-18 5:50 PM teflon2 - 2019-09-18 4:29 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-09-17 10:16 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-16 1:33 PM...........................……….. My point is that the EU has obviously done a border fudge in Cyprus ;-) ........... So there's no damn reason why they cant do the same for the Irish :-| .......... They're just using it as an excuse to cling on to their UK meal ticket *-) .......... Dave, I don't think you've read and understood you own quote. Go back and read it again. Barry is right, there is a hard border between north and south Cyprus, and there is no hard border between Ireland and NI, and the Belfast Agreement says, in terms, there shall not be one. There is no equivalence between Cyprus (which, as your quote confirms, is within the EU) and Northern Ireland (which is currently also within the EU). The Cyprus problem is that the EU does not recognise the independent status of North Cyprus, regarding both north and south as being a unified state. Since North Cyprus does not itself recognise its membership of the EU the border is maintained and, as your quote again confirms, the normal EU provisions for passage of people, goods, and finance across internal borders does not take place. Cyprus is a mess. What would be the point in creating another similar mess that in ay case would not solve the different NI border issue? I can see why you didn't pursue a career in the Foreign Office or the Diplomatic Service! :-D You could try Cyprus Holiday Adviser for the correct information. There is no hindrance on border crossing between the South and North of Cyprus. ie. it's a soft border exactly what the ROI and Northern Ireland want. You know a border that only exists on paper. Its still a border with manned checkpoints and passport checks. http://www.cyprus44.com/holidays/border-crossings.asp Quite! This don't 'arf get 'ard, don't it? And that is the point. It is a closed border with checks at crossing points, which is exactly what the Belfast Agreement says shall not exist between NI and the Republic. There is no equivalence. Go figure! :-D Quite!!! *-) ...... Its a border manned by Cypriot Greeks and Cypriot Turks ;-) ...... All within the EU!!!!!!!! (lol) (lol) (lol) ........ Kinda piss's on your EU pompous pile dont it Brian? >:-) ......... I wonder how they keep a check on that trade the EU is "Apparently" so worried about? :D ........ Reality check? Have a little read here, http://tinyurl.com/yyu83tl9 plus as many of the kinked articles as you feel you can cope with, and then explain to us all how the Cyprus border issue is in any way equivalent to that in Ireland. But don't forget to take note of the description of the Cyprus border (i.e. barbed wire and concrete, with watch towers, and limited crossing points), and the UN administered "green line", as they exist at present. Oh, I know, it's equivalent because it's called a border! Yep: for sure that'll do. :-D 1 The point is ;-) ..........It's a border on a Island that is "in the EU" 8-) ......... You know that EU where they have free movement from one EU country to another :-| ......... Yet they ALLOW an internal border between the North & South >:-) ........If they're prepared to fudge that border....... 2 Why not treat the NI border the same? *-) ......... 3 But we all know why don't we???..........The EU doesn't get 12 billion a year from Cyprus or the Greeks (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... So 1, is, as I suggested, "because it's called a border", and 2 is because Neither Cyprus nor the Greeks pay as much into the EU budget as the UK pays? 1 Was predictable (and was predicted!). 3 Defies all logic. Usually you do deals with those who pay you the most, and are less flexible in dealing with those who want money from you - unless, of course, they have alternative assets that can bring to the party, which sadly, in the case of Greece and/or Cyprus, seems improbable in the extreme. In your reasoning you turn away from one of your big creditors and fall over yourself to favour one of your biggest debtors. Dave, do not seek a career in financial services. :-D 2 Is answered when/if you read the link I posted about the Cyprus border and how it operates under present circumstances, and compare that with the a) Belfast Agreement, b) The Common Travel Area, and c) the NI-Republic border as it would have to operate should Britain leave the EU. So, as before, and as it was your selected example, please explain how you can see equivalence there. I note you offered no explanation above as to how the Cyprus border, as described in that link, could be equivalent to the NI-Republic border, nor how constructing a Cyprus style border between NI and the Republic without land swaps, constructing it of barbed wire and concrete, incorporating border check points - as the Cyprus border is described as being - might fit in with the Belfast Agreement. I'll let you off explaining the presence of the "Green Line" and why it is still under UN administration, as that might be a bit OTT between NI and Ireland. Yet again, Brexiter unicorns come to mind! :-D Cyprus border? Phooey! You forget ;-) .........NI High court has already p*ssed on the EU's and your parade :D ........ "The high court in Belfast has dismissed claims that a no-deal Brexit and the imposition of a hard border would damage the Northern Ireland peace process." https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/12/northern-irish-court-dismisses-case-against-no-deal-brexit No Dave, I haven't, and the NI high court has only ruled on a legal point that a hard border would damage the peace process, and so would be illegal; saying that the decision on that is a political one, not a legal one. In other words the consequences would be for politicians to face, and not the courts. But his decision is now being appealed to the Supreme Court, so is not the final word. But a clear warning has been issued, so if the hard border is installed, and the reactions by the para-militaries are as forecast, those who took those "political decisions" in the face of such clear warnings, when there was no over-riding imperative for them to do so, will find themselves in a very difficult place, legally, regarding whether they took proper account of the warnings before reaching their decisions. But you still haven't answered my question above regarding your claimed equivalence between the NI and Cyprus borders, instead seeking to introduce a completely different point. Nice, but predictable, try! :-D So, one thing at a time. Where is that equivalence? The equivalence is in the FACT that the EU is prepared to ignore their own rules when it suits them *-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Pat Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 The solution http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2019/09/23/are-reinforced-steel-kneecaps-the-solution-to-cross-border-business/?fbclid=IwAR1q3oRPk_3cSjH6C5xJfClBbVyeDZ6bBx3sEMBnoVNuNHTqRnQaHiM3r3A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-09-23 9:54 AM…………………………….. The equivalence is in the FACT that the EU is prepared to ignore their own rules when it suits them *-) ........ But that is not a "fact", is it? It is merely how you have chosen to present, it. How about saying instead, that the EU is prepared to waive their own rules, on a temporary basis, when faced with an intractable situation outside their control. They hope that the conflict over the Cypriot border will eventually be resolved, the border opened, and all the checkpoints removed, because the EU still regards the Republic of Cyprus (which legally includes the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus) as a single state (which it is under international law, because the Turks unlawfully invaded it and seized the north, albeit because the Greeks tried to grab it first) as member of the EU, because it joined in 2004. All you never wanted to know about Cyprus and never dared ask here: http://tinyurl.com/7u929jk After you've read that lot see if you still think Cyprus, and the way it gained its disputed border, is in any way similar to the situation in NI, which is caused purely by a member of the EU choosing to leave, having failed to take account of the land border with its only immediate neighbour state. Is that mess what any rational person would really want to create given the choice? If you polished a turd for long enough you might eventually manage to convince yourself it had turned into pure gold - but you'd be the only person living who believed that! The rest of the world would see it is a polished turd, and they'd probably wonder why you had bothered polishing it! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 And another thing about Cyprus that is not equivalent to the NI/Ireland border: the Cypriot border is not subject to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, which comes into effect on Brexit day whenever that may be. The relevant part of the Act, Devolution, Part 10 states, and I am quoting the Act in its latest form: 10 Continuation of North-South co-operation and the prevention of new border arrangements . (1) In exercising any of the powers under this Act, a Minister of the Crown or devolved authority must— (a) act in a way that is compatible with the terms of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, and . (b) have due regard to the joint report from the negotiators of the EU and the United Kingdom Government on progress during phase 1 of negotiations under Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union. . (2) Nothing in section 8, 9 or 23(1) or (6) of this Act authorises regulations which— . (a) diminish any form of North-South cooperation provided for by the Belfast Agreement (as defined by section 98 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998), or . (b) create or facilitate border arrangements between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland after exit day which feature physical infrastructure, including border posts, or checks and controls, that did not exist before exit day and are not in accordance with an agreement between the United Kingdom and the EU. (The bold in10 (2) (b) above is mine.) To be clear, this is not the Belfast Agreement, it is not the European Withdrawal Agreement, it is the UK Act of Parliament that is presently Statute Law and will automatically come into force on the day the UK leaves the EU. It is not just border controls or border posts that are included (the physical infrastructure), it is the act of "creating or facilitating arrangements" between NI and Ireland after Brexit day, that did not exist before Brexit day, unless they form part of an agreement between the UK and the EU. Under this Act, it matters not one hoot where any checks actually take place, if the checks were not being carried out before Brexit, they become illegal after Brexit unless there is agreement between us and the EU to the contrary. So, I just ask: is it remotely feasible that a UK Prime Minister could not be aware of this Act? After all, this is not the work of the EU, it is the work of both houses of the UK parliament - apparently debated and enacted when Boris Johnson was Foreign Secretary. So, what on earth is he on about with border checks being carried out away from the border? He must know such checks would breach his own government's 2018 Act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-10-09 10:29 PM And another thing about Cyprus that is not equivalent to the NI/Ireland border: the Cypriot border is not subject to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, which comes into effect on Brexit day whenever that may be. The relevant part of the Act, Devolution, Part 10 states, and I am quoting the Act in its latest form: 10 Continuation of North-South co-operation and the prevention of new border arrangements . (1) In exercising any of the powers under this Act, a Minister of the Crown or devolved authority must— (a) act in a way that is compatible with the terms of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, and . (b) have due regard to the joint report from the negotiators of the EU and the United Kingdom Government on progress during phase 1 of negotiations under Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union. . (2) Nothing in section 8, 9 or 23(1) or (6) of this Act authorises regulations which— . (a) diminish any form of North-South cooperation provided for by the Belfast Agreement (as defined by section 98 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998), or . (b) create or facilitate border arrangements between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland after exit day which feature physical infrastructure, including border posts, or checks and controls, that did not exist before exit day and are not in accordance with an agreement between the United Kingdom and the EU. (The bold in10 (2) (b) above is mine.) To be clear, this is not the Belfast Agreement, it is not the European Withdrawal Agreement, it is the UK Act of Parliament that is presently Statute Law and will automatically come into force on the day the UK leaves the EU. It is not just border controls or border posts that are included (the physical infrastructure), it is the act of "creating or facilitating arrangements" between NI and Ireland after Brexit day, that did not exist before Brexit day, unless they form part of an agreement between the UK and the EU. Under this Act, it matters not one hoot where any checks actually take place, if the checks were not being carried out before Brexit, they become illegal after Brexit unless there is agreement between us and the EU to the contrary. So, I just ask: is it remotely feasible that a UK Prime Minister could not be aware of this Act? After all, this is not the work of the EU, it is the work of both houses of the UK parliament - apparently debated and enacted when Boris Johnson was Foreign Secretary. So, what on earth is he on about with border checks being carried out away from the border? He must know such checks would breach his own government's 2018 Act. 1.........So where is the NI border they have an issue with?....... 2.........If its not there then where? >:-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.