Ducato X290 (post 2014) speedometer dial.

[Brian Kirby]

Does anyone please have a reasonably high res photo of the standard OEM (i/e. not a Lockwood replacement dial card), right hand drive, X290 series Fiat Ducato speedometer dial they could let me have? If so, please PM me, and I'll let you have my e-mail address.

 

Reason?

 

I've raised a query with the Department for Transport as to whether the Fiat dial, as supplied, properly complies with the requirements of Part 4 of the UK Construction and Use Regulations 1986 regarding the provision of a "speedometer capable of indication the speed in miles per hour and kilometres per hour". My contention is that due to its size, the KPH scale on the speedometer does not provide a sufficiently accurate indication of speed to be considered a usable speedometer.

 

Unfortunately, the dial in my van is a Lockwood dial, as the van is left hand drive and, whereas I am satisfied that it faithfully reproduces the Fiat dial, it is not the OEM version. If I'm challenged to illustrate the problem, I should much prefer to be able to present a picture of the genuine Fiat item - just in case! :-)

 

Many thanks.

[ColinM50]

Plenty on Google, this one looks pretty good

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fiat-Ducato-Manual-Conversion-Dial-Into-MPH-/173745940132

[Brian Kirby]

Thank you, but these are conversion dials by Lockwood. What I'm after is a picture of the original X290 Fiat Ducato dial in a RHD instrument cluster.

[Derek Uzzell]

The attached photos are of a 2014-onwards RHD Ducato instrument-cluster

 

This 2010 link

 

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2010:120:0040:0048:EN:PDF

 

includes information on speedometer specification requirements, but does not define a minimum size for the ‘speed numbers’.

 

There’s no doubt that a driver will be wasting his/her time if seeking to use the km/h scale on a Ducato speedometer to gain quick and accurate feedback of the km/h speed the vehicle is actually travelling at - but that doesn’t necessarily mean that the speedometer fails to meet the required specification.

 

It will interesting to learn what the DforT say.

 

[Keithl]

Brian,

 

Do you have a Fiat dealers nearby or possibly a MH dealership?

 

If so then nip down and take your own photos.

 

Keith.

[Robinhood]

Lit and unlit pictures emailed, Brian

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-11-26 2:03 PM

 

The attached photos are of a 2014-onwards RHD Ducato instrument-cluster

 

This 2010 link

 

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2010:120:0040:0048:EN:PDF

 

includes information on speedometer specification requirements, but does not define a minimum size for the ‘speed numbers’.

 

There’s no doubt that a driver will be wasting his/her time if seeking to use the km/h scale on a Ducato speedometer to gain quick and accurate feedback of the km/h speed the vehicle is actually travelling at - but that doesn’t necessarily mean that the speedometer fails to meet the required specification.

 

It will interesting to learn what the DforT say.

 

Thanks Derek. Yes, and it's also in Directive 75/443 EEC, and the wording in all cases is the same, calling for a highly accurate instrument.

 

Given that, it seems to me perverse that a dial with a scale so small, and a needle so thick, that speed cannot be accurately read to within 5KPH (the approximate width of the needle), is not reasonable where individual states expect drivers to drive to a speed tolerance within 0 - 5KPH of the legal limit.

 

I have no reply as yet, except an automated acknowledgement that a reply should be forthcoming within 20 days - and that was 35 days ago! I phoned to chase yesterday, and was assured a reply would be forthcoming.

 

What I'm suggesting is that the dial, as supplied, is not fit for purpose and, as such, does not reasonably meet the requirement of the three statutory instruments concerned. As such, Fiat should be required to supply/fit dial cards that are at least as good for KPH as they are for MPH. I await their reply with interest! :-D

 

If I get the line that no-one else has raised this issue, I may post a suggestion that others might like to e-mail the DfT on the same subject, to underline the unsatisfactory nature of the Fiat product.

[Brian Kirby]

Robinhood - 2019-11-26 2:39 PM

 

Lit and unlit pictures emailed, Brian

Thanks Bob. Got it.

[Derek Uzzell]

The attached photos are of the speedometers of a 2004 Ford Transit and a modern Volvo XC90 car and, if I were driving at 65mph, neither would permit me to glance at the speedometer and know with any certainty what speed in km/h I was travelling at.

 

None of the UK-specification vehicles I’ve owned have ever had a dual-scale chronometric speedometer where the secondary (though mandatory) km/h scale was effective for providing at-a-glance accurate speed data. Unless a speedometer is large diameter and the vehicle is slow, it’s unrealistic to expect this in my view.

 

This 2019 Honest John enquiry refers to difficulty reading the km/h scale of a 2017 Toyota car’s speedometer

 

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/answer/120352/which-cars-have-a-large-and-easy-to-read-speedo-

 

so Fiat is not the only offender in this respect.

 

Some chronometric speedometers provide better feedback than others, but, if an immediate accurate speed reading in mph and km/h is a requirement, a ‘switchable’ digital speedometer will be needed.

[davidmac]

Hi, is this enquiry prompted by your experiences in France earlier in the year?

Regards David

[Derek Uzzell]

The purpose of a speedometer is to provide an indication of a vehicle’s speed and, for modern-ish vehicles registered in EU countries, the instrument must be able to show speed in km/h.

 

For many years a vehicle registered in the UK must have a speedometer able to indicate speed in mph, but (as a result of the EU-wide rule) the instrument must also be able to show speed in km/h.

 

For more than 20 years the chronometric-style speedometer of a Ducato produced for sale in the UK has had an outer mph scale with quite large numbering with an (EU mandatory) inner km/h scale with much smaller numbers (photos on my posting of 26 November 2019 2:03 PM above). This is a commonplace design and, although the outer mph scale is normally straightforward to read it’s usually the case that the inner km/h scale is not, making it difficult for a UK motorist travelling outside the UK from easily using the inner scale as an accurate speed indicator.

 

The speedometer of a Ducato produced for sale in non-UK EU countries has a km/h scale (as demanded by the EU) with quite large numbering, but no mph scale (photo attached below). This type of speedometer design could have an inner (mph) scale similar to UK-market speedos, but there is no EU requirement for this and I’ve yet to see one that has that arrangement.

 

UK-market and non-UK-market Ducato speedometers both provide a reasonably easy-to-read speed indication in mph or km/h respectively, but the secondary inner scale of the UK-market speedometer does not allow a driver to easily establish the Ducato’s speed in km/h when driving outside the UK. However, although the latter limitation is undoubtedly true, the km/h-only speedometer of a non-UK-market Ducato provides NO indication of the vehicle’s speed in mph. This means that, when a Ducato with a km/h-only speedometer is being driven in the UK, its driver cannot know the vehicle's speed in mph via the speedometer other than by using an ‘equivalence’ method (112km/h = 70mph, 96km/h = 60mph, etc.) - a ploy that the driver of Ducato with a mph + km/h speedometer could equally employ when driving outside the UK.

 

If it’s to be argued that, because the (EU mandatory) inner km/h scale of a UK-registered Ducato’s UK-norm speedometer is hard to read when the vehicle is being driven outside the UK, this makes that speedometer unfit for purpose, surely it must then be argued that a Ducato’s km/h-only speedometer is even less fit for purpose as it cannot provide any mph speed indication when the vehicle is being driven within the UK. And, if it were to be contended that a Ducato km/h-only speedometer is not fit for purpose, then every kmh-only speedometer must also be unfit for purpose.

 

[Brian Kirby]

davidmac - 2019-11-26 7:36 PM

 

Hi, is this enquiry prompted by your experiences in France earlier in the year?

Regards David

Yes David, because when I was caught speeding, I was using my sat-nav as a substitute for the speedometer, and I had not realised that the sat-nav was giving inaccurate readings.

 

The main reason for using the sat nav was the relative illegibility of the KPH scale on the Fiat speedometer. It struck me that had the speedometer legibility been better I should probably not have relied on the sat-nav to the extent that I did, and should then have noticed that the sat-nav was reading slow.

 

I was puzzled that UK registered vehicles have dual scale speedometers, so researched the actual requirement for this, then finding it clearly stated in UK Construction and Use, but also in CE 75/443 and ECE39.

 

Having read the requirement, including the further requirements for accuracy of the instrument, I was very puzzled as to how Fiat's small (40mm diameter) KPH scale, with a needle that spans 5KPH in actual speed, could ever have been accepted as compliant, and by whom.

 

Our car, a Seat Mii, has a larger speedometer dial than the Ducato, with the MPH numerals and graduations on the outside of the circular drawn scale, and the KPH numerals and graduations on the inside. Both are clear, although the lettering of the KPH scale is fainter and smaller compared to the MPH scale, and reading indicated speed is comfortably possible on both scales - with the caveat that stronger, larger, KPH scale markings would be preferable.

 

The implication seems to be that whereas one is expected to be able to comply with legal limits in UK, compliance is somewhat optional when elsewhere! I don't think this can have been in the minds of those who drew up the requirement. Nowhere does it say that the KPH scale need not be as easy to read as the MPH scale! :-D

 

Speedometers are intended to provide drivers with accurate information on their road speed, precisely because of legally enforceable speed limits. It seems to me perverse to require these devices, but degrade the information they give when driving in countries that use metric units of measurement.

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-11-27 7:48 AM……………………………….If it’s to be argued that, because the (EU mandatory) inner km/h scale of a UK-registered Ducato’s UK-norm speedometer is hard to read when the vehicle is being driven outside the UK, this makes that speedometer unfit for purpose, surely it must then be argued that a Ducato’s km/h-only speedometer is even less fit for purpose as it cannot provide any mph speed indication when the vehicle is being driven within the UK. And, if it were to be contended that a Ducato km/h-only speedometer is not fit for purpose, then every kmh-only speedometer must also be unfit for purpose.

Quite!

[Derek Uzzell]

It's worth browsing through the km/h-to-mph conversion dials available from Lockwood International, as this will show how common a small inner km/h scale is and that quite a few manufacturers' speedometers are little better than the Ducato's for km/h readability.

 

I was interested to see that the km/h-to-mph conversion dial that Lockwood offers for some fairly recent Porsche cars has no km/h scale, just an mph one. Not sure what the implications of that are, unless those cars have a secondary digital instrument that provides a km/h readout.

[paul2]

Hi

My (65 reg) car's speedo is mph only but also has a large easy to read digital display that changes from mph to km/h if only the van had it!

It can be done and my cars a FIAT so they can do it to if they want.

 

Paul

[Deneb]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-11-27 11:44 AM

 

It's worth browsing through the km/h-to-mph conversion dials available from Lockwood International, as this will show how common a small inner km/h scale is and that quite a few manufacturers' speedometers are little better than the Ducato's for km/h readability.

 

I was interested to see that the km/h-to-mph conversion dial that Lockwood offers for some fairly recent Porsche cars has no km/h scale, just an mph one. Not sure what the implications of that are, unless those cars have a secondary digital instrument that provides a km/h readout.

 

To turn what you have said around slightly, I would say that the Ducato's speedometer dial is no worse than a lot of other speedometer dials for kph readability.

 

In a previous post you included an image of an older type Volvo speedometer. My previous Volvo had an analogue cluster with a central LCD display. The speedometer was only graduated in mph, but it was possible through a menu option to display a digital speed indication in the centre of the display, either configured as mph or kph.

 

My current Volvo has a digital TFT display, again only calibrated in mph. In the "performance" display mode, a large digital mph indication is available in the centre of the main display, but the traditional mph graduated speedometer available in other display modes changes to a rev counter at the same time. It is not however possible to change the digital mph indication to kph as it was with the analogue instrument. A very small digital kph figure (approximately 1/4 inch tall figures) can be displayed in the trip meter at the lower corner of the instrument, but only in one of the optionally available trip meter display modes. That is the only way to obtain a kph indication on the cluster.

 

Personally, as I have mentioned before, I don't have any great problem with the Ducato cluster, although I probably would have done if I had owned my van before I obtained prescription driving spectacles.

 

I do wonder, as the majority of MH drivers are probably over 40, how many of those suffering serious problems with reading the speedometer display might be suffering from undiagnosed age-related presbyopia? Although I had realised the need for "reading glasses" for several years, it was quite some time later before I had to admit to myself that I needed to do something about the slight blurriness of instrument and switch markings, particularly as my longer range vision had always been, and still is, pretty near perfect.

 

I now have driving glasses with a much wider field of focus than standard varifocals, with a close (reading) and moderate mid field prescriptions, and no prescription at all in the longer range field of the lenses. When I first sought advice from an optician, he made up a pair of lenses that "uncorrected" my sight to what he told me was the minimum legal requirement for driving. It was absolutely shocking how poor my vision through those lenses was compared to my normal uncorrected eyesight, but the spectacles I obtained were also a revelation, albeit in the opposite direction.

 

I would recommend anyone who has problems with the Ducato display and who also uses reading glasses to investigate further. Presbyopia is common from the age of about 40-45 years, and as well as the normally understood symptom of difficulty with near focus, it can also cause issues with near-field vision in dim lighting conditions and when constantly switching between near and far focus, which could be compatible with the oft quoted complaint of poor instrument illumination, particularly in bright daylight.

 

I'm not trying to disparage anyone's eyesight or claims regarding the Ducato speedometer, but I was honestly of the opinion that I did not need spectacles for driving until I investigated further. The difference since obtaining them has meant that I now no longer drive without them, despite having pretty much perfect uncorrected vision for anything much beyond the confines of the windscreen.

[Geeco]

The speedo on my Ducato is all kph but is difficult to read even with the upgraded backlighting. Our speed radar has a very low tolerance over the posterd limit so it would be difficult for you to read the kph on the UK speedo. There is a very simple solution if Fiat would offer a dash with a digital readout like my Mercedes has you probably would not have been booked. I only use my TT gps for a speed reading even if it is inaccurate it is easier to read than the Ducato dash. Cheers,

[Derek Uzzell]

Deneb - 2019-11-27 3:44 PM

 

To turn what you have said around slightly, I would say that the Ducato's speedometer dial is no worse than a lot of other speedometer dials for kph readability...

 

 

I agree and, even when Ducato X250/X290 owners began to complain about difficulty reading the speedometer in poor daylight conditions, there were plenty of other contemporary vehicles that were no better.

 

We own a 2009 Skoda Roomster and its speedometer is as shown on the 1st photo attached below. The instrument cluster is ’buried' in the dashboard and harder to read in low light conditions than a Ducato’s. Although the way that km/h is displayed differs from a Ducato’s speedometer and should be better at providing a more accurate readout, in practice it does not. Later Roomsters had much clearer instruments, but so what?

 

There have been vehicle-dashboard studies (2012 example here)

 

https://tinyurl.com/usq5pkg

 

but vehicle manufacturers go their own way, with ‘style’ tending to matter more than functionality and a driver’s basic requirements rgularly ignored. I remember driving in the 1980s a Vauxhall car with a ‘digital dashboard’ (2nd photo below). This was very clear and I’m pretty sure the speed readout could easily be swapped between mph and km/h. I believe it wan’t much liked at the time, but I wish my Ducato and Skoda had somehing similar.

 

I also echo your eyesight-related advice.

 

I now need glasses for close-up vision (reading, computer use, etc.) and I aslo use glasses (a different pair) for driving. Although my long-distance vision is still reasonable, so that I can drive with no real difficulty without wearing glasses, I found that doing this tired my eyes and my driving-glasses usefully sharpen up my vision. Fortunately, when I’m wearing the driving-glasses, I can also read a vehicle’s instruments OK.