weldted Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Hi all, if we leave the EU on 31st Jan do we leave the Zone at the same time. The reason for the post is we try to travel to France, Spain and Portugal from late October until early April which would be under 180 days in one go but more than 90. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 weldted - 2019-12-13 7:30 PM Hi all, if we leave the EU on 31st Jan do we leave the Zone at the same time. The reason for the post is we try to travel to France, Spain and Portugal from late October until early April which would be under 180 days in one go but more than 90. Best wait for the dust to settle after we've left ;-) ........ Then I suspect we'll be subject here in Spain to the same rules as the Russians, Moroccans, South American's etc etc who live here and are not part of the Schengen Zone :D ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 If you are asking about next year then you are asking too early. Despite BoJo's claim to 'get Brexit done' even after 31st Jan there is a long way to go before Brexit is done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phalange Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 The UK has never been in schengen, so how can we leave it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 colin - 2019-12-13 7:49 PM If you are asking about next year then you are asking too early. Despite BoJo's claim to 'get Brexit done' even after 31st Jan there is a long way to go before Brexit is done. Exactly ;-) ....... Getting Brexit done was just about leaving the EU :D ........ Now Boris has a massive majority to negotiate terms with the EU......... I doubt they'll be less favorable than what he has pledged for EU citizens in the UK B-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 phalange - 2019-12-13 7:54 PM The UK has never been in schengen, so how can we leave it? Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 weldted - 2019-12-13 7:30 PM Hi all, if we leave the EU on 31st Jan do we leave the Zone at the same time. The reason for the post is we try to travel to France, Spain and Portugal from late October until early April which would be under 180 days in one go but more than 90. I'm afraid your limit is 90 days. It already is actually (despite what others may try telling you) but pre-Brexit, never enforced and invariably overlooked. Post-Brexit when UK becomes a "third country" status, expect a different reception at UK border controls. After all, ending fom was what people voted for.....they just didn't think that meant their fom as well. https://www.gov.uk/visit-europe-brexit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 phalange - 2019-12-13 7:54 PM The UK has never been in schengen, so how can we leave it? I'm not sure how the op thought that unless he's new to touring over the pond. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weldted Posted December 13, 2019 Author Share Posted December 13, 2019 What I meant was so far uk passport holders have been able to travel within the zone without the 90 day limit being enforced would this be likely to change right away when we leave. Having Motorhomed for over thirty years around most of Europe and the time spent away never questioned just wondered how leaving may effect this. Well aware of the 90/180 rule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowdriver Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 weldted - 2019-12-13 9:49 PM What I meant was so far uk passport holders have been able to travel within the zone without the 90 day limit being enforced would this be likely to change right away when we leave. Having Motorhomed for over thirty years around most of Europe and the time spent away never questioned just wondered how leaving may effect this. Well aware of the 90/180 rule According to the UK government website: https://www.gov.uk/visit-europe-brexit "Entering other countries Visas for short trips: you will not need one if you’re a tourist If you’re a tourist, you will not need a visa for short trips to EU countries, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland. You’ll be able to stay for up to 90 days in any 180-day period." The application of the 90 days in any 180 day period involves the application of a "moving" 180-day reference period, looking backwards at each day of the stay (be it at the entry or at the day of an actual check), into the last 180-day period, in order to verify if the 90 days / 180-day requirement continues to be fulfilled. The 180-day period keeps rolling. Therefore, anytime you wish to enter the Schengen, you just have to count backwards the last 180 days, and see if you have been present in the Schengen for more than 90 days throughout that period. If you have then you would not be able eligible for entry. There is a calculator available here https://ec.europa.eu/assets/home/visa-calculator/calculator.htm and an associated PDF manual here that has some further helpful explanatory notes here: https://ec.europa.eu/assets/home/visa-calculator/docs/short_stay_schengen_calculator_user_manual_en.pdf From that manual the following is perhaps under-appreciated: "Stays in Bulgaria, Croatia, Ireland, Romania, Cyprus and the United Kingdom shall not be taken into account as they are not (yet) part of the Schengen area without internal borders. At the same time, the non-EU Member States Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland belong to the Schengen area; short stays in these countries count in when assessing the compliance with the 90 days / 180-day rule. " As to whether this happens "right away" who knows? As with many other things the detail of what exactly Brexit means is still shrouded in fog especially on the issue of when restrictions are applied. One important thing to note is that according to the UK government you will probably not need a visa if you are a tourist. However the new EU Travel Information and Authorisation system ETIAS (similar in goal to the US ESTA system) will be how you authorise your travel. More on that here from the EU law analysis website: https://eulawanalysis.blogspot.com/2018/04/brave-new-world-new-eu-law-on-travel.html No one ever said this was going to be easy - well except David Davis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 weldted - 2019-12-13 9:49 PM What I meant was so far uk passport holders have been able to travel within the zone without the 90 day limit being enforced would this be likely to change right away when we leave. Only because as i said in my previous post it was never enforced and overlooked pre-Brexit. The "90 day rule" was always there and whilst some Brits never even knew about it, quite a few did but knowingly flouted it as they knew it wouldn't be checked. Brexit has highlighted that now so expect it to be enforced once we achieve "third country" status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 slowdriver - 2019-12-13 10:35 PM weldted - 2019-12-13 9:49 PM What I meant was so far uk passport holders have been able to travel within the zone without the 90 day limit being enforced would this be likely to change right away when we leave. Having Motorhomed for over thirty years around most of Europe and the time spent away never questioned just wondered how leaving may effect this. Well aware of the 90/180 rule As to whether this happens "right away" who knows? As with many other things the detail of what exactly Brexit means is still shrouded in fog especially on the issue of when restrictions are applied. One important thing to note is that according to the UK government you will probably not need a visa if you are a tourist. However the new EU Travel Information and Authorisation system ETIAS (similar in goal to the US ESTA system) will be how you authorise your travel. More on that here from the EU law analysis website: https://eulawanalysis.blogspot.com/2018/04/brave-new-world-new-eu-law-on-travel.html No one ever said this was going to be easy - well except David Davis. Apart from "Brexit means Brexit" and it being "oven ready", shrouded in fog is a very fitting description as government dish up silly soundbites with zero substance! :-| Very good links there btw which should prove useful to the op. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 weldted - 2019-12-13 9:49 PM What I meant was so far uk passport holders have been able to travel within the zone without the 90 day limit being enforced would this be likely to change right away when we leave. Having Motorhomed for over thirty years around most of Europe and the time spent away never questioned just wondered how leaving may effect this. Well aware of the 90/180 rule Leaving on the 31st January will be ideal for us folk who like to spend the winter in Spain B-) ........ As we'll just need to do a day trip to France in August to start the 180 day clock, then a day trip to Gib end of January/February to reset the clock ;-) ........ Assuming of course the EU/Spain decides to enforce the 90 day rules on just us Brits and not the Russians, the Moroccans, the South Americans etc etc.... who all appear to be able to live here for longer than just 90 days :-| ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 If Boris keeps his word (for once), we will leave on 31st Jan. and then enter a transition period where we accept all eu rules and regulations and abide by european court judgements, but no longer have any say or influence on them. This will then allow negotiations on future trade arrangements with the eu to commence. So nothing will change as far as travel arrangements are concerned unless we can't reach an agreement and no deal becomes the default again. Boris says this can be completed in a year, but as yet we have not appointed a negotiation team, and I assume David Davies and Liam Fox will not be part of this. The eu have already set up a team, and expect negotiations, based on past treaties, to last about five years. So " getting Brexit done" might take a bit longer than hoped, and we can all continue as a " vassal state of the eu", to use Boris's own description of the deal when he originally voted against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 Another webpage worth looking at... https://www.etiasvisa.com/etias-news/etias-visa-how-will-it-affect-uk-citizens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowdriver Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-12-14 8:29 AM Leaving on the 31st January will be ideal for us folk who like to spend the winter in Spain B-) ........ As we'll just need to do a day trip to France in August to start the 180 day clock, then a day trip to Gib end of January/February to reset the clock ;-) ........ Assuming of course the EU/Spain decides to enforce the 90 day rules on just us Brits and not the Russians, the Moroccans, the South Americans etc etc.... who all appear to be able to live here for longer than just 90 days :-| ...... I like the ;-) , but I'm not sure what it means in this context. You'll just start the clock whenever you first enter the Schengen Area, and after that it is a matter of counting back. I am not sure that it is going to be "ideal" however, for me at least. For instance, if I understand this correctly: If I enter the Schengen Area on the 1st January 2021 for a 3 month trip to Spain, France, and Italy returning on the 31st March, I will then have used all of my 90 days. If I then want a weekend city break in Amsterdam on the weekend of May 15th, I cannot have it. Why? Because if I look at the preceding 180 days (from Monday 16th November 2020 - May 15th 2021) it is clear I have used up my 90 day (in any 180 day) allowance. I think the first time I'll be able to take that weekend away anywhere in the Schengen area countries, will be Saturday the 3rd of July 2021, by which time I will have "freed up" 2 days of allowance, because the 1st and 2nd of January 2021 when I started my van trip are now outside of the preceding 180 day window. Specifically the suggestion, made by Pelmetman, that by exiting the Schengen area for a day (by taking a day trip to Gibralter) you "reset the clock" is I am pretty sure, erroneous. If someone can provide any evidence that clock resetting works, then please do. I appreciate that for some this may be a contrived example - who goes away for 3 months from 1st January for 3 months in Schengen area countries? I never have. But as it turns out I was hoping to make exactly that trip in 2021, which is why I have had to do some research. I am not making any claims as to the accuracy of my calculation so if anyone knows better then please do contribute. It is actually an issue I'm trying to understand better. I will not comment on the issue of enforcement. I am trying to understand the law as it applies to me post Brexit not to start a discussion as to the comparative effectiveness of different national police or border authorities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 "Transition period (if the agreement is approved) If the UK parliament and the European parliament vote in favour of the Brexit agreement, a transition period will follow, which will last until 31 December 2020. During this period, all EU rules and regulations will continue to apply to the UK. Virtually nothing will change for businesses or for the public. This transition period may be extended once by two years, meaning it could remain in place until 31 December 2022." I guess we'll have to wait and see ;-).......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-12-14 8:29 AM As we'll just need to do a day trip to France in August to start the 180 day clock, then a day trip to Gib end of January/February to reset the clock ;-) ........ Dave, The 180 day period is a rolling 180 days and the start day constantly moves forward so you cannot 'start the clock'! We had a very long discussion on here a few months ago and it included many quotes and calculators as to whether specific trips were or were not 'valid'. Basically from a specific date you count back 180 days and your stay in any country must not exceed 90 of those days. You CANNOT add two periods of 180 days together to get a 90 + 90 day stay! Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 Keithl - 2019-12-14 10:45 AM pelmetman - 2019-12-14 8:29 AM As we'll just need to do a day trip to France in August to start the 180 day clock, then a day trip to Gib end of January/February to reset the clock ;-) ........ Dave, The 180 day period is a rolling 180 days and the start day constantly moves forward so you cannot 'start the clock'! We had a very long discussion on here a few months ago and it included many quotes and calculators as to whether specific trips were or were not 'valid'. Basically from a specific date you count back 180 days and your stay in any country must not exceed 90 of those days. You CANNOT add two periods of 180 days together to get a 90 + 90 day stay! Keith. Agreed ;-) ........Which is why I said a day trip to France in August will restart the 180 days meaning that period will run out in 180 days time in January........So if I do a day trip to Gib on the day I need to Leave the EU and don't return until after midnight.......I will effectively have restarted the 180 days ensuring that I can spend the rest of the winter in Spain B-) ........ All of which is purely hypothetical, as I'm pretty confident Spain will want to ensure I carry on spending 1000's every month in their economy, so will come up with a scheme to allow that, seeing as I've already pointed out that this part of Spain has a lot of Russians, Moroccans, South Americans etc etc none of which are in the Schengen Zone or the EU :-| .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-12-14 10:57 AM Agreed ;-) ........Which is why I said a day trip to France in August will restart the 180 days meaning that period will run out in 180 days time in January........So if I do a day trip to Gib on the day I need to Leave the EU and don't return until after midnight.......I will effectively have restarted the 180 days ensuring that I can spend the rest of the winter in Spain B-) ........ NO!!! If you spent 89 days in Spain and left for Gib on, say, 30th January you could then only spend another 1 day in Spain as your rolling 90 days would include the previous 89. For every extra day you spent in Gib you could get an extra day in Spain. To get 90 days in Spain from 31st Jan you would have had to be outside Spain for the previous 90 days, ie from around the start of November. It is really, really complicated! Keith. Edit: Try changing some dates in this on-line calculator https://adambard.github.io/schengencalc/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 Here you go, try these dates... Entry Exit Duration 2019-08-30 2019-08-30 1 days 2019-11-04 2020-01-31 89 days 2020-02-01 2020-02-02 2 days Results This schedule violates Schengen Visa rules! Between August 30th, 2019 and February 25th, 2020, you will stay for 92 days. Between November 4th, 2019 and May 1st, 2020, you will stay for 91 days. Or these dates, omitting the one day in August... Entry Exi Duration 2019-11-04 2020-01-31 89 days 2020-02-02 2020-02-28 27 days Results This schedule violates Schengen Visa rules! Between November 4th, 2019 and May 1st, 2020, you will stay for 116 days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 Keithl - 2019-12-14 12:02 PM pelmetman - 2019-12-14 10:57 AM Agreed ;-) ........Which is why I said a day trip to France in August will restart the 180 days meaning that period will run out in 180 days time in January........So if I do a day trip to Gib on the day I need to Leave the EU and don't return until after midnight.......I will effectively have restarted the 180 days ensuring that I can spend the rest of the winter in Spain B-) ........ NO!!! If you spent 89 days in Spain and left for Gib on, say, 30th January you could then only spend another 1 day in Spain as your rolling 90 days would include the previous 89. For every extra day you spent in Gib you could get an extra day in Spain. To get 90 days in Spain from 31st Jan you would have had to be outside Spain for the previous 90 days, ie from around the start of November. It is really, really complicated! Keith. Edit: Try changing some dates in this on-line calculator https://adambard.github.io/schengencalc/ You forget that my 180 day clock will start in August ;-) ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-12-14 2:18 PM You forget that my 180 day clock will start in August ;-) ........... But EVERY time you leave the UK you cancel the previous 'clock' and effectively start a new one. There is no such thing as a fixed 180 period, it is constantly moving. For ANY date you cannot spend more than 90 of the previous 180 days out of the UK. You seem to be trying to add the end 90 days of one 180 period to the first 90 days of the next 180 days, unfortunately you cannot do that! Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cattwg Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-12-14 8:29 AM Leaving on the 31st January will be ideal for us folk who like to spend the winter in Spain B-) ........ As we'll just need to do a day trip to France in August to start the 180 day clock, then a day trip to Gib end of January/February to reset the clock ;-) ........ My understanding, and I think it’s correct is that the 90 in 180 day rule applies to the Schengen Zone, not to individual Schengen Zone countries. So you can’t simply go from one Schengen country to another to restart the clock. Cattwg :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 Yes, it’s a Zone... ;-) This 2017 website (aimed primarily at USA travellers) discussed the reality of the Schengen Zone regulations http://www.whatupswags.com/2017/09/10-myths-of-schengen-visa-americans-in.html MYTH #3 relates to the false idea that popping out of the Schengen Zone for a short while and then popping back in again somehow ‘restarts’ the 180-day period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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