Car registered as Trailer

[Derek Uzzell]

The gov.uk link says

 

When an A-frame is attached to a vehicle (eg a motor car) we consider the A-frame and car temporarily become a single unit. When towed by another motor vehicle (eg motorhome) we believe that this single unit is, for the purposes of its construction, treated in GB legislation as a trailer.

 

But that’s just a stated belief and, although the DVLA might be accepted as having expertise in motoring matters, the statement has no proven UK legal authority.

 

In the hypothetical situation where I’m driving my motorhome in the UK towing a fully road-legal car on an unbraked A-frame, if a UK policeman stops me, checks all my relevant documentation and finds it acceptable, could I still be charged for towing the car in the manner I’ve described above and, if so, what offence would be cited?

 

UK towing-related on-line information generally supposes that a vehicle being towed has broken down and that someone will be behind the steering-wheel of the towed vehicle (example here)

 

https://www.hastingsdirect.com/car-insurance/guides/how-to-tow-a-car.shtml

 

but that’s not what I’d be doing - the car when disconnected from the A-frame would be immediately drivable and the use of an A-frame would avoid the need for the towed car to have anyone in it.

 

This 2015 link

 

https://www.autobutler.co.uk/blog/towing-in-uk

 

advises that “ If you tow a trailer or a vehicle which weighs more than 750 kilograms (including any load it is carrying) it must have its own brake system to be towed by cars in the UK.

 

but I’ve never ben able to identify any regulation that demands this for a VEHICLE being towed.

 

 

[mikefitz]

Reading the regulations suggests there could well be problems in the UK due to giving misleading information regarding the registration and the use without the correct operators licence.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2018/9780111173046

 

As I mentioned earlier the concept of registration of trailer is for a commercial use, hence operators licence, drivers hours and so on.

In Spain Trafico wont be amused and will most likely fine heavily for the equivalent of 'perverting the course of justice'.

 

Mike

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-12-25 6:47 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-12-25 11:44 AM

Derek Uzzell - 2019-12-24 6:21 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-12-24 12:41 PM

But this is the famous "grey area" is it not?... !

No, I’m interested in what, if any, UK motoring regulations might forbid someone from legally towing a fully-functional car on an A-frame without having to resort to ‘the car + A-frame is a trailer’ argument.

I had understood that, Derek, but, as no-one has, to my (inevitably limited) knowledge, been stopped and charged with such an offence in UK despite "A" frames having now been in use here for years, I had assumed that the answer to your question would be that there was no such regulation, so that we were doomed to circle back to the UK "grey area”....

What I’d like to know is, if I bought a car that had been adapted to accept an A-frame, bought an A-frame and removed any braking-system it might have and then towed the car behind my motorhome on the A-frame in the UK without changing the car’s rear registration-plate to match the motorhome’s, are there any UK regulations that might forbid me from doing this?

 

I can appreciate the potential advantages of the ‘car = trailer’ idea, but I’m not sure if it is a legal necessity in the UK.

Simple answer is, I have no idea! :-D

 

Argument: the car legally remains a car, because a) it is not identifiable as a trailer because it shows its own registration number in lieu of the tow vehicle registration number and b) in the absence of the A frame braking linkages, there is no means of operating its brakes (so presumably it can't be caught by the failure to comply with trailer regulations). It is has not broken down, and remains fully driveable, but is nevertheless being towed on a public road at normal driving speed.

Question: are there regulations that prohibit doing this?

 

Surmising :-); no, because I doubt anyone has previously done this and, until someone in DfT (or wherever) becomes aware of such an action, they are unlikely to propose legislation to prevent it.

 

But (still surmising :-)) you may, if stopped and challenged, be cautioned/prosecuted for driving a combination of vehicles where the towed element weighs in excess of 750kg and, in the condition in which it is being towed, is totally dependent on the towing vehicle for braking, so rendering the tow vehicle brakes inadequate for the gross train weight, and so dangerous.

 

It might also be held that the towed element is uninsured because, by retaining its own rear registration plate, it is not identified as a part of a combination of vehicles, so cannot be covered by the third party element of the towing vehicles insurance, while at the same time, as it is not being driven while in motion, and has not run-away, is not covered against such risks on its own insurance.

 

Finally, whether it is a car or a trailer, it would not be possible to operate the towed vehicles lights at night or during reduced visibility from the towing vehicle - which I'm sure must be a requirement - although I've been completely unable to find a reference, or even one that requires a means of switching vehicle lights on or off, whether trailer or not! Does anyone know if there is one, and if so where it is?

 

Oh, I do love these Christmas quizzes! :-D

[jobboyce]

Well, having read the thread I am left wondering.

While returning from Spain this year I got talking to a retired police person who told me that they had registered their car as a Trailer, (not that I don't trust police people.....honest) I wrote to the DVLA and asked if I could register our Hyundai i10 as a trailer (as well as a car) for when we are towing it on an A Frame 4 wheels down.

The DVLA said NO

So I do hope that the people who have registered their cars as Trailer get the opportunity to TEST and Clarify it for ALL of us because I would love to be able to tow 4 wheels down and not have to mess about with a trailer when going to Spain or anywhere else for that matter.

BTW

I have been towing 4 wheels down in France and Never been stoped, doesn't mean I legal or right.

[Brian Kirby]

job&boyce - 2019-12-28 6:32 PM

 

Well, having read the thread I am left wondering.

While returning from Spain this year I got talking to a retired police person who told me that they had registered their car as a Trailer, (not that I don't trust police people.....honest) I wrote to the DVLA and asked if I could register our Hyundai i10 as a trailer (as well as a car) for when we are towing it on an A Frame 4 wheels down.

The DVLA said NO

So I do hope that the people who have registered their cars as Trailer get the opportunity to TEST and Clarify it for ALL of us because I would love to be able to tow 4 wheels down and not have to mess about with a trailer when going to Spain or anywhere else for that matter.

BTW

I have been towing 4 wheels down in France and Never been stoped, doesn't mean I legal or right.

It would be interesting to know if DVLA gave their reasoning for saying no. Did they?

[jobboyce]

Unfortunately Bryan the DVLA did not give a rational (no surprise there) after all I’m only a tax payer. However I wonder if there is a suitable “Body / Organisation that could as the DVLA for a rational / full explanation so that those of us who just want an answer that ‘ is fact” and not an interpretation of what we would like to be the case.

After all one would have thought that CCC or C&M would like to help its members !!!! or even one of their advertisers (that sells A Frames) would step up to the plate. :-D

Robert

[Brian Kirby]

job&boyce - 2019-12-30 11:11 AM

 

Unfortunately Bryan the DVLA did not give a rational (no surprise there) after all I’m only a tax payer. However I wonder if there is a suitable “Body / Organisation that could as the DVLA for a rational / full explanation so that those of us who just want an answer that ‘ is fact” and not an interpretation of what we would like to be the case.

After all one would have thought that CCC or C&M would like to help its members !!!! or even one of their advertisers (that sells A Frames) would step up to the plate. :-D

Robert

Well, as you have their reply, so presumably a contact there, why not ask them if they could explain further what actually prevents the same vehicle being registered in two ways, so that it can be used in two ways: the one as a motor vehicle (which is how it is already registered), and the other as a trailer (for when you are towing, but not driving, it)?

[Derek Uzzell]

Plainly one CAN register a car as a trailer. Some people have already done this and, when I ‘checked’ the on-line registration procedure, it seemed possible to register as a trailer vehicles other than a car. (In fact, if one chose to be economical with the truth, I suspect that you could register non-existent vehicles without the procedure or the DVLA objecting.)

 

There is a potential problem for the DVLA here as - although it’s likely that the possibility of registering a trailer something that (Let’s be honest!) would not be recognised as such by any right-thinking person was never taken into account, this has happened and the people who have done this have paid £26 when they did it.

 

So, if the DVLA now adds a ‘no motor vehicles’ prohibition to the on-line registation procedure, would that mean that the £26 fee (and the cost of making up registration plates) would need to be refunded?

 

If I were the DVLA I’d just allow people to register their cars if they wished and let the applicants themselves deal with any subsequent repercussions.

[Rayjsj]

Towing a suitably converted car on a professionally manufactured A-Frame has been going on for many many years in the UK with no dangerous or fatal consequences.I towed my present car behind my Motorhome for 2 years without mishap for several thousand miles....in short, it is safe

and apparently NOT illegal in the UK.

But in the EU they play by different rules, (which is perhaps one reason why we are leaving on the 31st January ?).

[Brian Kirby]

Sorry Ray, but that is chop logic. "Safe" can only be defined as the absence of evidence of risk. How many years did you drive your motorhome while not towing the car, and how many accidents did you have in that time? So, would that prove that driving solo is safer than towing? Your a-framing time, or distance, is not statistically significant in proving risk or otherwise.

 

Re the EU, "they" do not "play" at all. As in UK, the rules regarding towing are made by the individual states, not by the EU. That is the reason for the conflict.

 

The restrictions on flat towing cars come from the likes of France and Spain: they are not imposed from elsewhere. The difference is in their legal tradition, under which if something is not legislated for it is deemed illegal. Our tradition is the opposite, that if something is not legislated against, it is deemed legal. That is why an A-frame cannot be used outside the UK without risk of fine or prosecution.

 

It is also why the Vienna Convention on International Traffic cannot be cited in defence, as one cannot prove that an A-frame is legal in the UK: all that can be said is that it is not illegal (the famous "legal grey area"), which does not satisfy the requirements of the Convention so as to oblige foreign states to admit A-frames to their roads.

[Tony Jones]

Rayjsj - 2019-12-30 3:02 PM

 

But in the EU they play by different rules, (which is perhaps one reason why we are leaving on the 31st January ?).

 

This is nothing to do with EU rules. It may surprise some members to know that EU States are STILL free to make their own laws on things like this. As witness the fact that the UK (at least by default) allows the use of A frames, while (eg) Spain explicitly forbids one vehicle towing another except in cases of breakdown.

 

But of course some people will never pass up a chance to "blame Brussels," however wrongly.

 

Can we get back to the topic now please?

[thebishbus]

From the safety point of view, I would think towing a car on an A-frame behind a Motorhome, is safer than towing a Caravan behind a car .

Brian B,

[Muswell]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Spanish law against towing a car was written to stop people doing that with a piece of rope, length and quality of which depending on availability. Then A frames came along.

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Earlier in this thread I provided a link to a 2018 guidance document (now withdrawn) on trailer registration

 

https://tinyurl.com/tpw9h42

 

That document provides background to why a UK trailer registration scheme has been provided and includes other useful information.

 

Paragraph 21 defines a commercial trailer

 

21 A trailer is a commercial trailer if it is used primarily:

---- for the commercial transport of goods or passengers’ belongings, whether for hire or reward or any other purpose; or

---- in relation to another paid occupation.

 

and Paragraph 24 says

 

24 It is important that the system and legislation underpinning the trailer registration scheme is flexible enough to account for any changes in enforcement action that may be taken by countries that are also part of the 1968 Convention. As such, optional registration will remain open to all trailers with a gross weight over 750kg. However, the Government does not recommend at this time, that non-commercial trailers with a gross weight below 3,500kg used for only non-commercial purposes should be registered with the DVLA.

 

There is also information (Paragraph 64) relating to regulations that might attract fixed penalty notices and these include

 

Regulation 20 - Keeping or using an incorrectly registered trailer on a road - £100

 

Commercial trailers with a gross weight exceeding 3500kg MUST be registered if they are to used in the following countries

 

Albania, Andorra, Armenia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Macedonia, Moldova, Monaco, Montenegro, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, San Marino, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Sweden, Switzerland and Ukraine

 

and it will be noted that Spain is not mentioned.

 

I notice that the UK trailer registration scheme was discussed on the Motorhome Fun forum in early-2018 and (unsurprisingly) how this might apply to A-frame towing soon came up.

 

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/trailer-registration-coming-to-the-uk.169853/

 

I admire the lateral thinking behind exploiting the UK scheme to register as a trailer a car that is to be A-frame towed. It should be obvious that the UK registration scheme is not intended to do this, and equally obvious that the scheme can be used to do this. But it’s a DVLA scheme and it’s the DVLA’s responsibility to close the present ‘registering a car’ loophole if they so wish.

 

I doubt if having ‘trailer plate’ on the rear of a towed car and multi-lingual documentation will cut much ice with police in countries that have regulations forbidding one motor vehicle from towing another. (A multi-lingual ‘defence’ document used to be provided by UK A-frame suppliers and Spanish police just disregarded it.) But does it really matter if A-framers choose to spend £26 on trailer-registration of their car even though this proves to be a waste of money and possibly makes them liable to financial penalties that would not have occurred if the car had not been trailer-registered.

[colin]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-12-31 7:39 AM

 

But does it really matter if A-framers choose to spend £26 on trailer-registration of their car even though this proves to be a waste of money and possibly makes them liable to financial penalties that would not have occurred if the car had not been trailer-registered.

 

It matters, if people read the OP and believe they are OK to do it.

[jobboyce]

Well Brian the DVLA did say that they "Did not have the words to fully explain the matter" whatever that means.

However as you so eloquently put it

 

"It is also why the Vienna Convention on International Traffic cannot be cited in defence, as one cannot prove that an A-frame is legal in the UK: all that can be said is that it is not illegal (the famous "legal grey area"), which does not satisfy the requirements of the Convention so as to oblige foreign states to admit A-frames to their roads. "

 

this is how I have always understood the situation to be, I was living in hope that a change may have occurred ...... but I think not

(I'll service the Trailer now ready for Spain France and whichever country I need it for)

Robert :-D

[Tony Jones]

Even if the UK government passed an Act, or a UK court made a ruling, making A Frames legal in the UK, Vienna only relates to the VEHICLE being legal.

Spain could still argue that their law relates to what you're doing with it - ie towing a motor vehicle. Which they're still free to legislate on.

Just as we have to obey local speed limits, and drive on the right - we can't say "But in my country ... therefore Vienna says it's ok."

[Derek Uzzell]

colin - 2019-12-31 9:12 AM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2019-12-31 7:39 AM

 

But does it really matter if A-framers choose to spend £26 on trailer-registration of their car even though this proves to be a waste of money and possibly makes them liable to financial penalties that would not have occurred if the car had not been trailer-registered.

 

It matters, if people read the OP and believe they are OK to do it.

 

Well, people ARE OK to do it as far as using the DVLA’s trailer registration procedure is concerned. What they gain from doing it, or what negative consequences there might be, is another matter all together.

 

As far as I’m concerned Cain’s question to the Lord (Genesis 4:9) should not apply to advising people who choose to do something that is permissible but must surely be considered peculiar.

[23addy46]

Hello all - Re this thread :- Now having owned and traveled a full 25000 miles over 10 years with our current MH (E695 Bessacarr) bought new Aug 09, and 'Tow-Bars2Tow-Cars.com' converted using our Peugeot 107 in Sept 09, perhaps I may offer a point to the forum...

 

I have to agree it appears utterly mad to expect a legally presented, fully road worthy Car to suddenly be re-considered as a 'trailer', but as oft mentioned - that's the DVLA (or latest incarnation) for you ?

 

However, whilst we haven't had reason to put this to test - on a point made re being instructed to detach the car from the MH and drive it away under it own power - Because it isn't a "broken down" vehicle...

 

Since purchase/use of our 'A' framed Tow Car, in addition to using padlocks at the Car to MH point, to assist security. I purchased a new ignition key WITHOUT ITS CHIP thus allowing the required steering wheel movement without any 'engine start'..

 

This was never instigated to 'fool' officials, simply to prevent the car being stolen during any service area 'Short stop or Over night' (ala, caravan problems)?

 

Whilst we have not yet been 'tested' during 9 French & 8 Spanish visits since 2010, if you have an "English Registered Car/Trailer", this 'dead key' could be attempted to prove a 'sin functional' vehicle ???

 

Dave Adams

[colin]

Tony Jones - 2019-12-31 10:39 AM

 

Even if the UK government passed an Act, or a UK court made a ruling, making A Frames legal in the UK, Vienna only relates to the VEHICLE being legal.

Spain could still argue that their law relates to what you're doing with it - ie towing a motor vehicle. Which they're still free to legislate on.

Just as we have to obey local speed limits, and drive on the right - we can't say "But in my country ... therefore Vienna says it's ok."

 

Modern trailers require some form of paperwork to 'prove' they are trailers, I cannot see why it's not possible to present a car with A frame for testing to get it's IVA as a trailer,. If you read the DVLA page it states that they believe a A framed car becomes a trailer, so it can be argued that by default they are illegal unless they are tested.

[Deneb]

colin - 2019-12-31 1:45 PM

 

Modern trailers require some form of paperwork to 'prove' they are trailers, I cannot see why it's not possible to present a car with A frame for testing to get it's IVA as a trailer,. If you read the DVLA page it states that they believe a A framed car becomes a trailer, so it can be argued that by default they are illegal unless they are tested.

 

I've been reading this thread with some incredulity from the start. DVSA interpretation has always been that they believe a car towed by an A-frame becomes a trailer when the A-frame is attached. Similarly, we always treated cars on a tow rope as trailers for enforcement purposes, and there have been stated cases which confirm that.

 

None of this means that the towed vehicle is a legally acceptable trailer, only that for purposes of deciding if any regulations or laws have been broken, it will whilst being towed be treated as a trailer rather than a motor vehicle. It still may not be lawful to tow it on a road depending on the exact circumstances or its condition, but when deciding what parts of the book to throw at the driver (and owner) it will be looked at as a trailer rather than a car driven under its own power.

 

The DVLA aren't condoning the registration of towed cars as trailers under the registration scheme. The guidance states that the only trailers that should be registered are those having a MGW over 3500 kgs, or over 750kgs if being used commercially.

 

Just because DVLA are accepting applicants' money and issuing documents doesn't mean that they approve or are even necessarily aware of what is going on. In collaboration with DVSA they have set up a web application portal to allow easy registration of trailers. There is almost certainly a legally untrained input clerk dealing with these applications and simply churning out documents containing whatever information the applicant has entered, probably without any thought. They (DVLA/DVSA) most likely didn't envisage anyone being so silly (I use the word advisedly, as something stronger might be more appropriate) as to register a motor vehicle as a trailer.

 

Why would a motor vehicle need to be registered as a separate unique vehicle when it is already registered in its own right? What happens when DVLA realise that its single and unique Vehicle Identification Number is attributed to two apparently different types of vehicle on their databases? By registering a vehicle that does not exceed 3500kgs GVW, you are inferring that it is being used for commercial purposes. If an enforcement officer assumes that to be the case based on the guidance issued, and the towing vehicle and "trailer" have a combined MAM exceeding 3500kgs, they may quite rightly want to see the calibrated tachograph recording equipment fitted to the vehicle and examine your charts to ensure that you have complied with drivers hours regulations, amongst other things?

[Paul-]

The law says that any trailer over 750kgs has to have working brakes fitted, this used to be enabled by modification with some "A" frames, but not all. It was and is still a grey area.

However having no brakes on any trailer over 750kgs is still an offence unless the trailer ("A" frame) is showing trade plates

[Deneb]

Paul- - 2019-12-31 4:16 PM

However having no brakes on any trailer over 750kgs is still an offence unless the trailer ("A" frame) is showing trade plates

 

Trade plates have nothing to do with it, they are just a transferable form of excise duty exemption that can be issued and used in restricted circumstances.

 

Any trailer over 750kg can be exempt from the requirement to be fitted with a braking system if it complies with the exemptions under regulation 16 of the Road Vehicle (Construction & Use) Regulations 1986. One exemption is that the trailer is a broken down vehicle. Dollies are also exempt from the requirement to have a braking system if used to recover a broken down vehicle, provided that the towing vehicle's brakes are capable of meeting the minimum legally required braking performance for the weight of the entire combination. An A-frame is not a dolly as it neither allows the vehicle to be superimposed on or suspended from it.

[Guest pelmetman]

Tony Jones - 2019-12-30 4:29 PM

 

Rayjsj - 2019-12-30 3:02 PM

 

But in the EU they play by different rules, (which is perhaps one reason why we are leaving on the 31st January ?).

 

This is nothing to do with EU rules. It may surprise some members to know that EU States are STILL free to make their own laws on things like this. As witness the fact that the UK (at least by default) allows the use of A frames, while (eg) Spain explicitly forbids one vehicle towing another except in cases of breakdown.

 

But of course some people will never pass up a chance to "blame Brussels," however wrongly.

 

Can we get back to the topic now please?

 

Wasn't the purpose of a "Common Market" that we all applied the same rules? :-S ........

 

Why else were we forced to give up Pounds & ounces? ;-) ........

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Deneb - 2019-12-31 3:29 PM

 

...Why would a motor vehicle need to be registered as a separate unique vehicle when it is already registered in its own right?

 

I hoped that (with your police background) you might choose to involve yourself in this discussion.

 

It’s plain from Joe1955’s four postings on the 1st page of this thread that he thinks that, having registered his car in the UK as a trailer, when he A-frame tows the car through France and Spain in 2020, the trailer-specific number-plate and the multi-lingual documentation provided by the DVLA might be beneficial should the French and/or Spanish police query what he is doing.

 

Joe1955 says that he did not come up with the trailer-registration idea himself, but followed the lead of a Bristol-based firm’s owner who had trailer-registered his own car and had adapted Joe’s car to accept an A-frame.

 

https://www.lnbleisure.co.uk/index.php/9

 

Some interesting advice here...

 

https://www.lnbleisure.co.uk/index.php/2