Derek Uzzell Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 The idea that a UK-registered car might legitimately be considered to be a ‘trailer’ when being towed in the UK via an A-frame is covered here https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/a-frames-and-dollies/a-frames-and-dollies It’s plain from the relevant gov.uk websites https://www.gov.uk/guidance/trailer-registration https://www.gov.uk/register-trailer-to-take-abroad that (for a £26 fee) it is possible to register a motor vehicle as a trailer. There is nothing in the registration process that inhibits this - no warning that what an applicant is attempting to register fails to meet the conventional definition of a trailer, and it would appear that, if suitable data (eg. a VIN-number) can be provided,a wide range of motor-vehicle types (car, truck, motorhome, motorbike, etc.) could be registered. However - although the registration procedure does not prevent this being done - it’s near certain that it was never envisaged that anyone would do this as, frankly, it’s a very odd thing to do. It would be interesting to know what the DVLA’s reaction would be to an enquiry about this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 Derek Uzzell - 2019-12-23 9:16 AM However - although the registration procedure does not prevent this being done - it’s near certain that it was never envisaged that anyone would do this as, frankly, it’s a very odd thing to do. It would be interesting to know what the DVLA’s reaction would be to an enquiry about this... It is worryingly common that government agencies do such things with proper consideration, they wait until someone points out where they are wrong and then try and correct it. An example would be 'General Licences' issued by NE which have been a complete cock up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikefitz Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 The registration is for a commercial trailer up to 3500kg. Trying to explain that your trailer (car) is really a commercial trailer may result in been asked for tachograph records. I doubt thar any Spanish or Portuguese traffic police will accept the 'trailer registration' as such and will regard it as a car. Trafico may regard the dual registration itself as illegal, leading to more problems. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 colin - 2019-12-23 10:28 AM Derek Uzzell - 2019-12-23 9:16 AM However - although the registration procedure does not prevent this being done - it’s near certain that it was never envisaged that anyone would do this as, frankly, it’s a very odd thing to do. It would be interesting to know what the DVLA’s reaction would be to an enquiry about this... It is worryingly common that government agencies do such things with proper consideration, they wait until someone points out where they are wrong and then try and correct it. An example would be 'General Licences' issued by NE which have been a complete cock up. I think you meant to say "without proper consideration", but - if I were producing a UK on-line trailer registration procedure - I'm extremely doubtful that I would ever have considered the likelihood that the procedure would be employed to register as a trailer what was inarguably a motor vehicle. In the 1970s and 1980s, when I was writing software that processed data that were manually input, I tried hard to predict how the inputters would do this (usually simple) task wrongly and I included error-checking routines to try to modify the information to make it usable. But there was often some bright spark who (despite having been given clear instructions how to do the work correctly) would decide to go their own way and do something outlandish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pj650 Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 Maybe I am a bit thick,but I can’t see what is to be gained from registering the car as a trailer. It is still a motor vehicle.If the intention is to drive it on the road it needs to be taxed to be legal.Surely,if isn’t taxed as a motor vehicle then it can’t be driven on the road. The only saving I can see is saving a bit of road tax. My worry is that in the case of an accident,goodness only knows what might happen with insurance etc. Given that we read different stories of people getting stopped abroad while towing cars on A frames,I feel it is entering yet another extremely grey area. It’s maybe a simplistic view of things,but I think it is pushing boundaries,and I think it could backfire. I might be totally wrong in what I have said,but I just don’t understand the logic of doing this. Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 pj650 - 2019-12-23 12:42 PM Maybe I am a bit thick,but I can’t see what is to be gained from registering the car as a trailer. It is still a motor vehicle.If the intention is to drive it on the road it needs to be taxed to be legal.Surely,if isn’t taxed as a motor vehicle then it can’t be driven on the road. The only saving I can see is saving a bit of road tax. My worry is that in the case of an accident,goodness only knows what might happen with insurance etc. Given that we read different stories of people getting stopped abroad while towing cars on A frames,I feel it is entering yet another extremely grey area. It’s maybe a simplistic view of things,but I think it is pushing boundaries,and I think it could backfire. I might be totally wrong in what I have said,but I just don’t understand the logic of doing this. Peter. Peter, It IS still registered and taxed as a Motor Vehicle. But it is ALSO registered as a trailer to try and get around the Spanish law prohibiting one motor vehicle from towing another by trying to claim it is a trailer and NOT a motor vehicle when connected to the MH with an 'A' frame! Basically the 'car' changes identity from a Motor vehicle to a trailer depending on whether it is on tow or not. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 Keithl - 2019-12-23 12:46 PM Basically the 'car' changes identity from a Motor vehicle to a trailer depending on whether it is on tow or not. Keith. Hmmmmmmm. Unusual puzzle. The ' car ' may change its' " identity " from motor vehicle to trailer on paper - but it doesn't actually become a trailer - as trailers are ( as I understand it ) defined by the DVLA as unpowered vehicles. But then - when the engine is turned off - it presumably could be described as an unpowered vehicle. I suppose the issue when touring will be, or may be, how other countries define a trailer. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 There is a surreal quality to using the on-line procedure to register a motor-vehicle as a trailer. I could employ the on-line procedure to register my Rapido motorhome as a trailer in exactly the same way that Joe1955 has registered his car as a trailer. My Rapido motorhome would then simultaneously be both a motorhome and a trailer and, because it would be registered as a trailer, presumably it would need to carry two different rear registration-plates. Obviously this would be daft thing for me to do, but, if the on-line procedure is used in a manner it plainly was never intended for, it just shows how bizarre the result can be. It’s also worth browsing through the original (now withdrawn) 2018 guidance document https://tinyurl.com/tpw9h42 and perhaps this March 2019 webpage https://dvladigital.blog.gov.uk/2019/03/01/new-register-your-trailer-to-take-it-abroad-service-goes-live/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 With no CoC or IVA for the completed trailer (a legal requirement for all new trailers), and a makers name and vin which directly links to a car, I fear that whilst it might puzzle some police, if any decide to take it further there may be dire consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 Not in the EU i think. Only Scotland and their famous marsh pipers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 A Motorhome in the EU is made By COP manufactures. That will be the same in all member states. They print the COC. Than you have a club like your DVLA who puts it on the road. The rules are not the same per Eu member.. On the back of the driving axles you may add something braking or not braking. braking by you tell me itself. Reading the text and the A - frame is out. Show me your dvla text that it is allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 A friend tried to argue with Spanish police over his own interpretation of the laws. He bought a 13 seat mini van to transport clients from the airport to his business. As the laws required him to have a commercial licence if it had more than eight seats. He took five out and argued that it was now an eight seater. It was impounded. The moral is that you may think you have cheated the system by finding a loophole. But don't count on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 Hans - 2019-12-23 8:20 PM A Motorhome in the EU is made By COP manufactures. That will be the same in all member states. They print the COC. Than you have a club like your DVLA who puts it on the road. The rules are not the same per Eu member.. On the back of the driving axles you may add something braking or not braking. braking by you tell me itself. Reading the text and the A - frame is out. Show me your dvla text that it is allowed. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/a-frames-and-dollies/a-frames-and-dollies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 Can any forum-member identify the UK regulations that relate to towing a motor vehicle that is not broken down and is perfectly drivable? There is plenty of on-line guidance on the rules for towing a broken down vehicle (example here) https://www.rac.co.uk/breakdown-cover/towing-a-car-tips but that’s another matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 But this is the famous "grey area" is it not? There is at present no specific regulation, so in the absence of statute law, the car can be towed under Common Law (unless and until regulated or banned under statute). The nearest equivalent to a car on tow is a trailer so, under that interpretation, the car may be deemed a trailer - insofar as it complies in all other respects (braking, reversibility etc.) with the law relating to trailers, which are covered by specific regulations. It then for (probably! :-)) legal purposes, becomes a trailer that looks like a car. If, at some future date, regulations are produced to cover the towing of motor vehicles on public roads, the present situation will become clearer. Alternatively, if a case is brought against a driver for towing another motor vehicle (possibly, for example, as a contributory factor to a fatal accident, or similar), the practise will presumably be determined by the courts under common law, so establishing a precedent, but probably only in terms of banning whatever practise was found to have contributed to that accident - which may well leave the situation even less clear! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKen1 Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 All this energy wasted on quoting regulations , putting links to other info ,and convincing yourself that its a trailer .....If you come to Spain , which I believe is the purpose of your original post, all this will be for nought there will be no way you will convince Trafico Cop at the road side this is a trailer ,,,they will fine you for taking the Micky. Read this article..... https://n332.es/2015/03/30/the-rules-regarding-a-frames/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ocsid Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 colin - 2019-12-23 7:31 PM With no CoC or IVA for the completed trailer (a legal requirement for all new trailers), and a makers name and vin which directly links to a car, I fear that whilst it might puzzle some police, if any decide to take it further there may be dire consequences. Surely this is it in a nutshell "and a makers name and vin which directly links to a car,". This "trailer's" VIN has no genuine reference back to a trailer CoC, only a KIA motor vehicle's CoC. That the DLVA's website did not search the worlds VIN numbers and flag up the entry was plucked from a car not a trailer, comes as no surprise at all. I doubt the underlying DVLA's application software is setup to validate quoted VIN numbers, just accept what applicants choose to quote to them. My thoughts are the registration can't be valid even here in the UK as its based on a false "trailer" VIN number, a car's VIN number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-12-24 12:41 PM But this is the famous "grey area" is it not?... ! No, I’m interested in what, if any, UK motoring regulations might forbid someone from legally towing a fully-functional car on an A-frame without having to resort to ‘the car + A-frame is a trailer’ argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 Derek Uzzell - 2019-12-24 6:21 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-12-24 12:41 PM But this is the famous "grey area" is it not?... ! No, I’m interested in what, if any, UK motoring regulations might forbid someone from legally towing a fully-functional car on an A-frame without having to resort to ‘the car + A-frame is a trailer’ argument. Derek, I can't find any regulation specifically forbidding towing one vehicle behind another but under 'Vehicle Recovery' there are specific speed limits applicable when towing a 'Broken down' vehicle, namely: 40mph on a motorway 30mph on a dual carriageway 30mph on any other road So that would severely limit your options for travelling any significant distance whilst towing. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guide-for-recovery-operations/running-a-vehicle-recovery-business-driver-and-vehicle-safety-rules Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 25, 2019 Share Posted December 25, 2019 Derek Uzzell - 2019-12-24 6:21 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-12-24 12:41 PM But this is the famous "grey area" is it not?... ! No, I’m interested in what, if any, UK motoring regulations might forbid someone from legally towing a fully-functional car on an A-frame without having to resort to ‘the car + A-frame is a trailer’ argument. I had understood that, Derek, but, as no-one has, to my (inevitably limited) knowledge, been stopped and charged with such an offence in UK despite "A" frames having now been in use here for years, I had assumed that the answer to your question would be that there was no such regulation, so that we were doomed to circle back to the UK "grey area". In any case, as has often been stated, it is not the method of flat towing that conflicts with law outside the UK, it is the fact of flat towing one motor vehicle with another, where the towed vehicle has not broken down and/or being towed in an emergency, and where (outside the UK) the towing vehicle is not an authorised recovery vehicle. Keith's reply raises a further issue that appears to make the car registered as a trailer dubious. It is similar to that which governs flat towing in France which is, if the "trailer" defence were used, one might be challenged to prove that the car had broken down. A persistent policeman might then demand the keys and, if the engine started, hey presto, the trailer would revert to being a car, despite still being attached to the towing vehicle, and the French law demonstrably broken. AFAIK, the same logic applies in Spain so, depending on whether the policeman was amused or annoyed by the subterfuge, one might have made ones soup somewhat "hotter" than it already was! I think this "trailer" ploy is unwise, and doomed to eventual (possibly costly) failure, because it is so obviously subject to the "duck test". If it looks like a duck (car), swims like a duck (has an engine), and quacks like a duck (has a hooter :-)), it is probably a duck (a car - with a registration document saying so!). After all, whereas one might get away with pleading ignorance of a slightly arcane foreign law, in registering what is demonstrably a motor vehicle as a trailer, one declares one's knowledge of that law (otherwise why do that?), and in so doing exposes one's self to a charge (in whatever terms brought) of fraudulently seeking to circumvent that law. The other snag is that one's only recourse will be to de-couple there and then, and have the car driven separately, because as it is neither a trailer nor broken down, it can only legally be towed if loaded onto a genuine trailer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted December 25, 2019 Share Posted December 25, 2019 spospe - 2019-12-21 2:02 PM Joe1955 - 2019-12-21 1:25 PM Hi,as any one else been on DVLA website and registered there A Frame Car as a trailer, it's a really easy procedure and I will definitely be taking my car with me next year in Europe, obviously making sure I display the separate number plate and taking the trailer certificate with me. Are you visiting Spain and if so have you checked that the Spanish police will accept this arrangement? I am pretty sure that the Spanish Police won't care what documents you have, They will still say unhitch the car, you might8 escape the fine ?? but I wouldnt bank on it. Towing on an A Frame is Fine in the UK, which is all that interested me.8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 25, 2019 Share Posted December 25, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-12-25 11:44 AM The other snag is that one's only recourse will be to de-couple there and then, and have the car driven separately, because as it is neither a trailer nor broken down, it can only legally be towed if loaded onto a genuine trailer. If the police believe it is a fraudulently registered trailer it might get a lot more problematical than that. As we all know, in the past A frame manufacturers have been giving people totally worthless bits of paper written in Spanish and sending people off to break the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 25, 2019 Share Posted December 25, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-12-25 11:44 AM Derek Uzzell - 2019-12-24 6:21 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-12-24 12:41 PM But this is the famous "grey area" is it not?... ! No, I’m interested in what, if any, UK motoring regulations might forbid someone from legally towing a fully-functional car on an A-frame without having to resort to ‘the car + A-frame is a trailer’ argument. I had understood that, Derek, but, as no-one has, to my (inevitably limited) knowledge, been stopped and charged with such an offence in UK despite "A" frames having now been in use here for years, I had assumed that the answer to your question would be that there was no such regulation, so that we were doomed to circle back to the UK "grey area”.... What I’d like to know is, if I bought a car that had been adapted to accept an A-frame, bought an A-frame and removed any braking-system it might have and then towed the car behind my motorhome on the A-frame in the UK without changing the car’s rear registration-plate to match the motorhome’s, are there any UK regulations that might forbid me from doing this? I can appreciate the potential advantages of the ‘car = trailer’ idea, but I’m not sure if it is a legal necessity in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted December 25, 2019 Share Posted December 25, 2019 AIUI you would be towing a‘broken down’ car and would have to display an ‘ON TOW’ sign on the rear of the broken down car and also be subject to the speed limits I posted earlier. Quite how you would get on with not having a‘driver’ in the second car I do not know. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 25, 2019 Share Posted December 25, 2019 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/a-frames-and-dollies/a-frames-and-dollies In the link the Dept of Transport give their opinion, which is they believe in law that a A framed car becomes a trailer, and this is where we have the grey area, until it is tested in court. This is not something odd, there are many grey areas in law, they remain as such until tested in court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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