Guest pelmetman Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 Derek Uzzell - 2019-12-31 5:57 PM Deneb - 2019-12-31 3:29 PM ...Why would a motor vehicle need to be registered as a separate unique vehicle when it is already registered in its own right? I hoped that (with your police background) you might choose to involve yourself in this discussion. It’s plain from Joe1955’s four postings on the 1st page of this thread that he thinks that, having registered his car in the UK as a trailer, when he A-frame tows the car through France and Spain in 2020, the trailer-specific number-plate and the multi-lingual documentation provided by the DVLA might be beneficial should the French and/or Spanish police query what he is doing. Joe1955 says that he did not come up with the trailer-registration idea himself, but followed the lead of a Bristol-based firm’s owner who had trailer-registered his own car and had adapted Joe’s car to accept an A-frame. https://www.lnbleisure.co.uk/index.php/9 Some interesting advice here... https://www.lnbleisure.co.uk/index.php/2 Given my on going experience of registering a British car as Spanish ;-) ....... I cant imagine the world of bureaucratic pain the OP might encounter....... should he wish to confront the Spanish system with something they've deem'd illegal 8-) ......... Correction I can 8-) 8-) 8-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-12-31 5:48 PM Wasn't the purpose of a "Common Market" that we all applied the same rules? :-S ........ Why else were we forced to give up Pounds & ounces? ;-) ........ Sorry, but that’s a misunderstanding. The requirement of any common market is that participants have common rules where deviation from the rules would give competitive advantage so for example, country members of the European Union cannot subsidise their local steel industry to gain competitive advantage over other EU countries steel industries – ie there must be a level competitive playing field. Decimalisation on the other hand has been a policy of successive UK governments - ie no force applied; first our currency (pounds, shillings and pence anyone?) and then weights and measures. Most of world trade uses the decimal system so we are disadvantaged by not using it. A few individuals nostalgic for the past may not like it but a small vunerable country like the UK will have to either get with the flow or be left behind. That of course is up to our elected government of whatever persuasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 BruceM - 2019-12-31 6:53 PM pelmetman - 2019-12-31 5:48 PM Wasn't the purpose of a "Common Market" that we all applied the same rules? :-S ........ Why else were we forced to give up Pounds & ounces? ;-) ........ Sorry, but that’s a misunderstanding. The requirement of any common market is that participants have common rules where deviation from the rules would give competitive advantage so for example, country members of the European Union cannot subsidise their local steel industry to gain competitive advantage over other EU countries steel industries – ie there must be a level competitive playing field. So why did we help the EU provide the finance to ship Fords Transit factory from Southampton to Turkey? :-| ....... Doesn't seem very fair to me seeing as Turkey isn't even in the EU *-) ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 Before we slip in to the lies from Brexit central can we get back to the subject? It seems some have a problem understanding how an item can transform from one thing to another and back again. I have spent most of my working life in a heavily regulated industry, aviation, this industry has no problems with someone bolting a set of wings on a car and calling it an aircraft as long as it meets the regs, as such it will have a different registration and also need a different licnce to operate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 colin - 2019-12-31 7:31 PM Before we slip in to the lies from Brexit central can we get back to the subject? It seems some have a problem understanding how an item can transform from one thing to another and back again. I have spent most of my working life in a heavily regulated industry, aviation, this industry has no problems with someone bolting a set of wings on a car and calling it an aircraft as long as it meets the regs, as such it will have a different registration and also need a different licnce to operate. Lies?.......The controversial move of the Ford Transit factory is well documented :-| ......... Having a lifetimes experience in a regulated industry is to be frank irrelevant when confronted by Spanish bureaucracy 8-) ......... For example my first attempt to get my car tested for a ITV failed because I had.......a tow bar 8-) ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-12-31 7:45 PM Lies?.......The controversial move of the Ford Transit factory is well documented :-| ......... Yes it is well documented, the American owned firm Ford took a loan from the European bank, they then decided to rip us off by shipping out Transit production. Still I'm sure they will be much kinder to us with any trade deals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 colin - 2019-12-31 8:35 PM pelmetman - 2019-12-31 7:45 PM Lies?.......The controversial move of the Ford Transit factory is well documented :-| ......... Yes it is well documented, the American owned firm Ford took a loan from the European bank, they then decided to rip us off by shipping out Transit production. Still I'm sure they will be much kinder to us with any trade deals. At least we will have more control of our financial decisions than we do now ;-) ......... BTW it was the fact that the EU would pay for them to move to Turkey that cemented the deal :-| ...... Talk about Turkeys voting for Christmas *-) ....... And as part of the EU we were forced to pay for it too >:-( ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 Derek Uzzell - 2019-12-31 5:57 PM I hoped that (with your police background) you might choose to involve yourself in this discussion. I was trying very hard to stay out of it up to now! It’s plain from Joe1955’s four postings on the 1st page of this thread that he thinks that, having registered his car in the UK as a trailer, when he A-frame tows the car through France and Spain in 2020, the trailer-specific number-plate and the multi-lingual documentation provided by the DVLA might be beneficial should the French and/or Spanish police query what he is doing. It will make absolutely zero difference to whatever interpretation a foreign country has in relation to their own legislation. In UK law, the car becomes a trailer whilst it is being towed, but it also retains its status as a motor car. Whether or not another country chooses to interpret a car as a trailer whilst it is being towed, the way in which it is being towed and whether that complies with their domestic legislation will be their overriding concern. He would have been better off giving the application fee to a charity of his choice. From what I understand the ability to register trailers for use abroad has come about due to the necessity to comply with the 1968 Vienna Convention on Road Traffic now that we will imminently no longer be able to avail ourselves of the benefits (or otherwise) of being an EU member state. The convention requirements apply to commercial trailers with a MGW over 750 kgs and all trailers with a MGW over 3500 kgs. The legislation creating the ability to register a UK trailer and other legal requirements that follow on from that registration is the Trailer Registration Regulations 2018. For the purpose of those regulations a trailer has the definition given to it by Section 13(3) of the Haulage Permits and Trailer Registrations Act 2018, which is "anything on wheels which is intended or adapted to be drawn by a motor vehicle". So it could certainly be argued that a motor car intended to be drawn by another motor vehicle could fall within that definition if it has been adapted for towing. The title of the Act might suggest more of a clue as to the type of trailers it is intended to apply to though, and towing a motor vehicle for personal or private use does not fall within the scope of the Vienna Convention requirements. However, there are a number of associated legal requirements which those who have already registered their cars as trailers need to note: Having been allocated a trailer registration mark, that mark must be permanently and securely displayed on the registered vehicle in the format prescribed at all times whilst it is being used or kept on a road, and not be obscured. That means "at all times", not "only when it is being towed". It is an offence to fail to comply with that condition. Additionally, having been registered and allocated a trailer registration mark, it is also an offence to display any other registration mark on the registered vehicle except for the trailer registration mark whilst it is being used or kept on a public road (although current guidance indicates that the registration mark of the towing vehicle should also be displayed alongside the trailer number plate whilst the combination is being used in the UK to comply with existing UK legislation). Yet a motor vehicle is already registered with DVLA in its own right and has been assigned a registration mark which the keeper or driver has a duty to display on the vehicle under similar conditions. So by complying with one condition you commit an offence of failing to comply with another. Surely that is sufficient indication in itself that the legislation was not intended to permit the registration of motor vehicles as trailers when they are already registered in their own right? Joe1955 says that he did not come up with the trailer-registration idea himself, but followed the lead of a Bristol-based firm’s owner who had trailer-registered his own car and had adapted Joe’s car to accept an A-frame. https://www.lnbleisure.co.uk/index.php/9 Some interesting advice here... https://www.lnbleisure.co.uk/index.php/2 But had the owner of that company fully familiarised himself with the primary legislation creating the ability to register a trailer, and its associated legal requirements and responsibilities, or did he just think it seemed like a good/clever??? idea to further his cause. According to the first link to his site that you quoted, he claims that A-frames are legal, but as has already been pointed out, it is in fact the case that they have not been declared illegal provided that they comply with the conditions outlined in the relevant DVSA guidance document, which sets out their understanding of the position in the absence of a definite legal interpretation. In years gone by, a keen traffic policeman would probably have caused a person using an A-frame to be reported for prosecution so that the matter could be tested in court and the legal status fully determined. However, for some time now, enforcement agencies have tried to adopt a consistent approach to road traffic legislation and penalties, so unless something were to change, the DVSA guidance is regarded as the adopted stance to A-frames within the UK and due to that commonality the legal status is unlikely to be tested or determined in a court of law anytime soon. It has no effect on the approach that any other country or state might choose to adopt though. And the views in the second link you quoted seem designed more to attract and convince prospective purchasers of the merits of buying his equipment, rather than stating the facts. He states that as a holidaymaker staying less than six months in a European country you are legal provided that the A-frame system complies with the required trailer legislation to make it legal in the UK. Hang on, we already know that it is not legal in the UK. It is simply untested by legislation (and likely to remain so due to the DVSA guidance document and enforcement protocols)! And the same DVSA document which he quotes to confirm his view states that "the views expressed [in the document] are only applicable for the UK. We understand that these views are not shared in other European countries and we would not recommend use of an A-frame outside the UK without some investigation of the rules that apply in the relevant country. We are unable to comment on the situation in other countries as this will be governed by their domestic laws, together with the Vienna Convention". The document also states that the views expressed relate solely to the technical requirements for a motor vehicle when being used with an A-frame. Users should satisfy themselves that they comply with ALL OTHER ASPECTS OF ROAD TRAFFIC LAW THAT MAY APPLY WHETHER THE TOWED VEHICLE IS VIEWED AS A TRAILER OR A MOTOR VEHICLE (my emphasis). Edit: A very long post and one piece I forgot to include originally. Being as the purpose of registration is to make it straightforward to identify a vehicle and obtain the details of its registered keeper, what purpose is achieved by registering a vehicle that is already registered, has a permanent registration mark displayed on it and whose keeper is already required to be registered with the DVLA? The difference with true trailers is that, until now, they have had no obvious or easy method of individual identification or of tracing the keeper if required, but that is not the case with a motor vehicle. 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Guest pelmetman Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 Deneb - 2019-12-31 8:49 PM Having been allocated a trailer registration mark, that mark must be permanently and securely displayed on the registered vehicle in the format prescribed at all times whilst it is being used or kept on a road, and not be obscured. That means "at all times", not "only when it is being towed". It is an offence to fail to comply with that condition. Indeed ;-) ....... I accepted that once I re'plaited my car onto Spanish plates I would no longer be allowed to tow my UK caravan :-| ..... So when the van went into storage in April this year they came down and collected it with their Spanish registered land rover and gaffa taped their number plait onto my caravan.......and I followed behind in the car........ When it was delivered back to the campsite this October......they towed it down with my car 8-) ........and charged me 95 euro's for the privilege *-) ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 What follows is an observation not a criticism ;-) Deneb - 2019-12-31 8:49 PM ... In UK law, the car becomes a trailer whilst it is being towed... The gov.uk advice about A-frames and dollies says When a A-frame is attached to a vehicle (eg a motor car) we consider the A-frame and car temporarily become a single unit. When towed by another motor vehicle (eg motorhome) we believe that this single unit is, for the purposes of its construction, treated in GB legislation as a trailer. As I’m certain you know, people generally are notoriously lax about language exactitude. It’s regularly stated on motorhome forums that a car towed behind a motorhome ‘becomes’ a trailer, but the Department for Transport’s advice is that it is only when an A-frame + car is attached to a motorhome that the DforT’s considered opinion comes into play, and the ‘trailer’ that the opinion relates to is the combination of an A-frame + car, not just the car alone. A productive dialogue with the DVLA needs exactitude and patience. If the DVLA were asked whether the on-line trailer-registration procedure CAN be used to register a motor vehicle as a trailer, the reply should be “Yes” - but there’s every likelihood the reply will be “No” because DVLA staff are as inexact with language as other people tend to be. If I wanted to progress this with the DVLA I’d enquire as follows: I own a motorhome (make, model, reg-no, VIN no. details) and I tow a car (make, model, reg-no, VIN no. details) within the UK and abroad using an A-frame. I am familiar with the Department for Transport’s guidance on A-frames and dollies (link provided) Several motorhome owners who also tow with an A-frame have UK-registered as a trailer the car they tow using the on-line trailer-registration procedure (link provided) as they are confident doing this will be advantageous when travelling abroad. I have confirmed that the on-line trailer-registration procedure can be used to register my car as a trailer, and also confirmed that the procedure contains no information forbidding me from registering my car as a trailer. However, before I go ahead and pay the £26 first-registration fee, please advise me whether there are any regulations preventing me from registering my car as a trailer. Not easy to predict how the DVLA would respond, but I wouldn’t surprise me if it took several ‘goes’ before the enquiry was transferred to someone prepared to provide any sort of in-depth answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisCM Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 Am I missing something here? Why not just use a trailer? Looking at eBay for a secondhand, good condition Smart car trailer can be had for <£1000, a braked A frame, new as I understand some mods are required to the next towed vehicle’s brakes?, again approx £1000. Another consideration may be whether you can actually tow your chosen car 4 wheels down without causing damage to it never mind the actual wear and tear, avoided on a trailer. The only downside I can see is the extra storage space required for the trailer, about the same space as a large family saloon. An upside would be the secondary uses the trailer could be put to. I would agree with a large number of other posters, don’t mess with the Spanish police, you won’t win! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 Derek Uzzell - 2020-01-01 9:33 AM As I’m certain you know, people generally are notoriously lax about language exactitude. It’s regularly stated on motorhome forums that a car towed behind a motorhome ‘becomes’ a trailer, but the Department for Transport’s advice is that it is only when an A-frame + car is attached to a motorhome that the DforT’s considered opinion comes into play, and the ‘trailer’ that the opinion relates to is the combination of an A-frame + car, not just the car alone. Which is all quite correct, but similarly a car attached to another vehicle by a tow rope is also considered in law to be a trailer whilst it is being towed. It is also still a motor car. The A-frame is the mechanism by which the vehicle is able to be connected to the towing vehicle and pulled along. No different in that respect than a length of rope. The advice is not conferring any special status on the vehicle or confirming its legality due to the use of an A-frame in particular. It is just expressing the UK legal position that anything connected to and pulled along behind a motor vehicle is considered to be a trailer whilst it is in that condition. Depending what the object is,how it is being towed and what equipment is fitted to it, it may or may not be legally compliant with UK law. If it isn't, the driver could face prosecution for breaching the relevant conditions, but it is still a trailer at the time, whether legal or otherwise. For a car towed by an A-frame to be considered compliant with UK legislation, it has to also comply with other additional requirements in relation to the provision and method of operation of brakes, a secondary coupling, lights, reflectors and display of a registration mark etc. If it didn't, it is still a motor vehicle attached to an A-frame. It will still be considered to be a trailer whilst it is being towed, but one for which the driver could be prosecuted for various Road Traffic Act and Construction and Use offences. I'm not familiar with Spanish road traffic law, or indeed any other foreign road traffic law, to the extent that I could make a judgement on the legalities of towing with an A-frame or otherwise. It may be that the Spanish also regard anything being towed behind another vehicle as a trailer. But if their legislation specifically prohibits a motor vehicle to be towed by another motor vehicle using an A-frame, either completely or in specific circumstances, then an offence will be committed by the driver of a motor vehicle breaching those conditions. It doesn't make the vehicle being towed any less a trailer, just one that is prohibited by law in that country. A motor vehicle being towed by a dolly is also considered to be a trailer in UK law, but it is only legal to tow a vehicle by that method in very specific circumstances. That doesn't mean that the combination of a towing dolly and motor vehicle is not a trailer if used outside of those circumstances, it just makes it a trailer which the driver of the towing vehicle can be prosecuted for using. As I understand it, that is similar to the position in Spanish law that an A-frame is not a lawful method of towing another motor vehicle. Registering the towed vehicle as a trailer with DVLA is not going to make any difference to that position! If I wanted to make a specific enquiry regarding the registration of an already registered motor vehicle as a trailer, I would ask both the DVLA and DVSA. It is the DVSA that may decide to intervene whilst you are driving on UK roads. I doubt that either would be prepared to give any specific advice about the use of such a vehicle (trailer) outside of the UK though. But it comes back to the reason for the introduction of the trailer registration legislation, which is to allow drivers and operators intending to tow trailers abroad to comply with the requirements of the Vienna convention after we are no longer able to benefit from the agreement conferred by our EU membership. The legislation is quite clear as to the size and type of trailers it relates to and motor cars being towed for non-commercial use do not fall within that scope. It is quite obviously clearly possible to register a motor vehicle as a trailer using the DVLA online portal, but I would ask again, to what end? It is not conferring any legal status on the registered motor vehicle that it already does or does not have, and it is certainly not going to override any requirements as to the construction and usage of such a "trailer" combination either in the UK or anywhere else. The towed vehicle already has a registration mark assigned by the DVLA and recorded on their register, so what is the benefit to the driver, keeper or any enforcement authorities of it having a second registration mark also assigned to the same vehicle? It is not conferring any special status on the "trailer", or giving the user carte blanche to ignore foreign legislation regarding use of vehicles and trailers, or assert that it doesn't apply because of a number plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 Deneb - 2020-01-01 11:30 AM.....................….I'm not familiar with Spanish road traffic law, or indeed any other foreign road traffic law, to the extent that I could make a judgement on the legalities of towing with an A-frame or otherwise. It may be that the Spanish also regard anything being towed behind another vehicle as a trailer. But if their legislation specifically prohibits a motor vehicle to be towed by another motor vehicle using an A-frame, either completely or in specific circumstances, then an offence will be committed by the driver of a motor vehicle breaching those conditions. It doesn't make the vehicle being towed any less a trailer, just one that is prohibited by law in that country...…………………... On Spain, see this earlier quote from a string involving a much missed forum member resident in Spain: BGD - 2012-01-29 4:32 PM DJP - 2012-01-29 1:02 PM BGD - 2012-01-29 10:50 AM ukhymerman - 2012-01-29 8:54 AM Hi fellow romer Do not dispair - as usual this is an old advise for residents living in Spain and does not apply to UK residents visiting for under 6 months The clue is in the thread like which say specifically for "Brits living abroad" hope this helps you fellow TOAD's put your mind at ease happy romer Sorry - but that is utterly the wrong interpretation. It simply says, and has always said, that a vehicle towing another vehicle, is illegal on any Spanish roads. It is not old advice. it has only very recently been added to the UK Consulate website, Towing using an A-Frame is a grey area of law in the UK. It ain't and never has been in Spain. It's illegal here. You may or may not like this Spanish law. But it is perfectly clear that this is the law in Spain. WHEN did advice become law? This is at the top of the page from the link Please note that the following information is provided as a guide only. Definitive information should be obtained from the Spanish authorities. For any of the following processes, you may find it helpful to employ a gestor (a representative who carries out administrative dealings on behalf of a private customer or company) to take care of the paperwork for you. The fine is 40 euro. It can be contested, it can be won. It is the fine that is illegal. "Quote from previous post" Look at the rules for harmonisation of mutual recognition of transport law within the EC it clearly states that if a product satisfies the rules of one member state it must be allowed free passage in all other member states. That is the whole point of CE certification - we have to accept Spanish products here with a CE mark and the same applies in Spain :-o :-o Advice has never been law. The law has always been law. The "health warning" at the top of the UK Consulate web-page refers to all and any of the advice following - and it means exactly what it says: it is general advice based upon their English wordings; but the definitive law is in Spanish and is enforced and interpreted by judges in Spanish Courts, and if in doubt with respect to any specific circumstances, consult a Spanish Abogado (lawyer). It might be worth using the "search facility" on this website to re-read some recent earlier threads on this topic. I have quoted the actual law on this topic in one of them, in Spanish, and also translated it into English for people in this thread:- http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=25123&start=1 I think you might be getting a little confused between the "CE" marking for homologation of products across the EU, and Road traffic laws in different EU States. National road traffic laws have nothing whatever to do with "CE" marks. Your car will be homologated, but that doesn't mean you can drive it in Spain at above the national limit here of 120 KMs per hour; yet on a German autobahn you can. Road traffic laws and subsidiary regulations are nothing to do with the EU - there is actually no such thing as EU "law" at all in fact, only a series of Directives on certain specific matters, which Member nation States then pass into domestic law themselves. In the UK the domestic law (the Construction & Use Regulations) is moot - it does not say that you can tow using an A frame on UK roads; yet it does not say that you cannot. Until/unless a test case is brought in the UK courts, or the Minister of State amends the C & U regs, that remains the case. Suppliers are exploiting that "loophole" by saying that a car becomes a trailer when towed via an A- Frame. No-one has yet tested in a UK court that very very ambitious, but nonetheless convenient, interpretation of the C & U regs. But in Spain the wording of the domestic law here is, and always has been, crystal clear. The English translation of the relevant passage in Spanish laws is: "Article 9.3 of the General Rules of vehicles prohibits the circulation of a motor vehicle dragging another, except when it is damaged or broken down and cannot be towed by another vehicle specifically intended for that purpose, in which case it is allowed only to tow to the nearest town or village where it can be detained without hindering the traffic, and always provided they are not travelling on a motorway or highway. Notwithstanding the foregoing, the circulation of a combination composed of a motor vehicle and a trailer or semi trailer on which another vehicle is transported, is allowed if the combination meets the conditions for driving on public roads and is approved according to Directives 70/156/EEC and 94/20/EC and also does not exceed the maximum permitted length for these combinations which is that of 18.75 meters for trailers and 16.50 meters for semi trailers. " You can see from the above quote that Spanish legislation specifically outlaws the towing of one motor vehicle by another on any Spanish roads (except in the very rare, short-duration, emergency situations detailed above). A car is a motor-vehicle. It doesn't stop being a motor-vehicle and somehow become a trailer, just because it's sitting behind a motorhome being towed. You know that. I know that. The Spanish Police here know that. What is happening now is simply that they are increasingly actively enforcing this law here now, by fining those who break it. For France the law is similar, and is covered in the French "Code de la Route". Paraphrasing, it says that it is illegal for one motor vehicle to tow another unless, either a) the towing vehicle is a licenced recovery vehicle, or b) the vehicle being towed has broken down and is being towed to a place of safety or repair and is being towed via a homologated tow pole (which then requires a driver in the broken down vehicle to steer it), at low speed, and with the hazard warning flashers of both vehicles operating. An A-frame, by its nature, is not a homologated tow pole, the towing vehicle will not be a licenced recovery vehicle, the towed vehicle would be driverless, it is unlikely to be travelling at low speed, and I have yet to see hazard warning flashers used on either vehicle! So, under French road traffic law, and offence (possible several) is committed when towing a car on an A frame. Just to try to be clear, it is not the A-frame that is illegal, it is the act of towing one motor vehicle with another, except in accordance within the permitted conditions. No ifs, no buts. Regarding the Vienna Convention on International Traffic, this says (again paraphrased) that a vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that is legal under the laws of the country in which it is registered, must be admitted to the roads of all other signatory countries. The problem, under the Vienna Convention, for A-framers, is that they cannot demonstrate the legality of the combination of motorhome + car towed via an A-frame within the UK. All that can demonstrate is that it is not, in the opinion of the British Authorities, illegal but, as the case has never been tried, and is not legislated for or against, "not illegal" does not translate to "legal" for the purposes of the Convention. 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Tony Jones Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 "Much missed " - is Bruce not a member here anymore? We're still in touch with him and Kathy, but they're UK based now (and he's retired from doing the gigs). Although I think they're touring in Spain at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-01-01 12:34 PM On Spain, see this earlier quote from a string involving a much missed forum member resident in Spain: (Rest of very informative post snipped for brevity) An excellent post with which I am pretty much in complete agreement with the facts as so clearly laid out. Thank you Brian! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 Tony Jones - 2020-01-01 12:48 PM "Much missed " - is Bruce not a member here anymore? We're still in touch with him and Kathy, but they're UK based now (and he's retired from doing the gigs). Although I think they're touring in Spain at the moment. BGD's most recent O&AL forum logon was in November 2017. If I remember correctly he had been savaged by forum 'cage fighters' (who subsequently got banned), felt that other forum members were not sufficiently sympathetic and decided to leave. I know he participated on other forums using the BGD user-name, but as you are still in touch you could ask him what happened here. Perhaps you could add that we'd be very pleased for him to return to the O&AL fold and that the current moderators are nowadays in total control and take no s*** from forum users. ;-) ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 I Miss BGD Bruce for his gig's interest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 A triangel tow car behind a camper is not a trailer. So put it on a trailer. Disconnect the engine battery, or say the car is broken. Dead engine. Observe total length. Some keywords: art 3 vienna 8-11-68. appendix 5. Not all eu accepted like spain. No strict rules and differences per country. Land of registration rules in the other. The best you can do is buy a alko tow bar and trailer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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