A class to PVC?

[ChrisCM]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-12-31 8:06 AM

 

The following link refers to using brakes or gears to decelerate

 

https://www.iam-bristol.org.uk/index.php/articles/driving-tips/76-brakes-to-slow-gears-to-go

 

 

Exactly what I was taught Derek!

[Don636]

I agree with that Derek and this is what I do in normal driving but this advice does not necessarily apply to descending steep hills where I believe that using a lower gear is the correct thing to do.

[ChrisCM]

Don636 - 2019-12-31 9:02 AM

 

I agree with that Derek and this is what I do in normal driving but this advice does not necessarily apply to descending steep hills where I believe that using a lower gear is the correct thing to do.

 

Fully agree, As I said in an earlier post this advice doesn’t envisage steep hills, especially not in a heavily loaded PVC/Motorhome.

[John52]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-12-31 8:06 AM

 

The following link refers to using brakes or gears to decelerate

 

https://www.iam-bristol.org.uk/index.php/articles/driving-tips/76-brakes-to-slow-gears-to-go

 

 

Doesn't mention the weight of the vehicle though - and its the weight that produces the heat!!

In a light vehicle you don't need to worry about overheating brakes.

In a heavy vehicle, you do.

Especially on long steep descents.

.

[Derek Uzzell]

I’ve been driving motor vehicles since I was 16 - so for almost 60 years - and I’ve never had any formal tuition.

 

However, having taught myself to ride a motorbike and later moved on to learning to drive a 4-wheeler in my uncle’s builder’s lorry with him saying "You know how it all works” and then “Don’t hang about as we’ll never get anywhere” as I drove wide-eyed at a snail’s pace on narrow country roads, I’ve always understood that gears and brakes should be used as the situation demands.

 

So, when keeping speed down or reducing speed, I might use brakes, or gears, or a combination of both and the choice will depend on the situation and the vehicle I’m driving. When I’m driving my motorhome I’ll choose a braking method appropriate for the motorhome; when I’m driving my car I’ll choose a braking method appropriate for the car.

 

(Do people REALLY need to be lectured on how a motor vehicle should be decelerated?)

[John52]

Derek Uzzell - 2020-01-01 9:57 AM

Do people REALLY need to be lectured on how a motor vehicle should be decelerated?

Some people do.

And since you posted a link on the subject I thought it worth adding that it all depends on the weight.

[P E Jennings]

No, our current Hymer is 2010 on a 60 plate. Our previous B544 was on a 2004 plate was 3500kgs and had a brilliant pay load. Because it suited us so well, we stayed with both make & model. We transferred all our contents from old van to new van & toddled off to the weighbrige, just for peace of mind & almost had a nervous breakdown there & then when we saw the printed weights on the ticket. We were 400kgs overweight! It’s an experience we never want to have again. No matter what we purchase next, we will demand a weighbridge certificate first

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2020-01-01 9:57 AM......……………….(Do people REALLY need to be lectured on how a motor vehicle should be decelerated?)

Not sure about "lectured" but possibly invited to review long held rules of thumb? :-D

 

Apologies for the further off topic, but the advice "to use the brakes to slow down not the gearbox but just be in the correct gear when you want to continue/accelerate" seems to me crude (and also a bit contradictory and confusing) if taken literally. For example, how to be in the correct gear without changing - and thereby causing some clutch wear? Is it better to change down before, or after, the bend/hill - and why would one be more significant for clutch wear than the other?

 

On the basis that any gear change will cause a small amount of clutch wear, is it not better for the change to be made before the bend/hill, and so consequently reduce, or even eliminate, wholly unnecessary brake wear?

 

I'm a bit surprised the police would reduce driving to such a blunt rule. Driving is a dynamic process, all of which causes wear to something. I just wonder what level of experience the attendees were assumed to have. And yes, with 3.5 tonnes or more descending a mountain pass, it is IMO absolutely sensible to use whatever engine braking is available to take some of the strain off the brakes.

[Don636]

I can’t see that anyone here is lecturing anyone on anything - merely providing alternative viewpoints, which is what I thought this Forum was all about. We can each make up our own minds on what we want to do.

[Derek Uzzell]

The verb “lecture" has two possible meanings

 

1: to deliver a lecture (ie. a discourse given before an audience or class especially for instruction)

 

2: to reprove formally

 

In my last posting I anticipated that the first meaning of the word would be understood, as the second meaning would not make much sense.

 

I can’t see much gain in arguing over whether using a vehicle’s brakes or gearbox is the ‘best’ way to decelerate, as this must depend on the situation and the vehicle. I normally use brakes to slow down (because that’s what brakes are for) but, going down steep hills in my motorhome (but probably not in my car) I’ll commonly choose to downshift to an appropriate gear and moderate the speed with the brakes. The only time when I would use JUST the gearbox to decelerate would be if I were forced to as the brakes would have failed.

 

The advice on the Bristol Advanced Motorists webpage

 

https://www.iam-bristol.org.uk/index.php/articles/driving-tips/76-brakes-to-slow-gears-to-go

 

is generalised. It mentions that downshifting sequentially was the norm in olden days, but although I used to do this with my motorbikes because there was no alternative, I’ve never felt compelled to do it with 4-wheel vehicles. Regarding ‘block’ upshifting, I don’t recall ever doing this in vehicles with a manual transmission with 4 forward gears, I occasionally do it nowadays in vehicles with 5 forward gears and I often do it if the vehicle has 6 forward gears - but my wife (who was taught to drive in her 40s) never ‘block’ upshifts and never downshifts sequentially.

 

When I used to ride motorbikes I used to counter-steer them. I’m not sure how commonly used that technique is and, in any case, it’s not essential for safe riding. Similarly, using a motorhome’s manual geabox sequentially or not is a matter of personal choice and is not safety-related.

 

It would certainly be worth emphasising to novice motorcaravanners that care should be taken when descending steep hills not to overheat the brakes and that it’s best practice to assist the brakes by selecting a suitable lower gear. But I’d expect Peter and Enid Jennings’s experience with heavy-ish motorhomes to have made them fully aware of this.

 

It might be interesting to know if any motorcaravanner (novice or veteran) who has viewed/commented on this thread was previously oblivious to the risk of a motorhome’s brakes overheating when descending steep hills, or if anyone who was aware of this possibility has never chosen to use the gearbox to assist the brakes on steep descents.

[Don636]

I have always been aware of the need to consider picking a lower gear when descending steep hills and will do this in my car where appropriate. My current car is a Volvo V90 with an auto gearbox and I think it is very unlikely that the brakes would overheat going down a steep hill and in fact I have never experienced any brake fade in a car on steep hills in 45 years of driving. I still, however, manually select a lower gear going down steep hills as I believe it provides more control.

I have had my current motorhome for 5 years and for the first time last year I experienced significant and sudden brake fade going down a long and steep mountain pass. I had selected a lower gear and was aware that you should not apply the brakes for long periods but should instead allow time for the brakes to cool in between applications. In hindsight it is clear that I should have been using a gear lower and driving a bit slower compared to driving a car.

It just goes to show that even with years of driving experience and knowledge of what to do there is always something to learn and consequently I now approach steep downhill sections with a bit more respect for the extra weight of a motorhome compared to a car.

How useful would it have been to have read this thread earlier?

[laimeduck]

As a habitual visitor to the Alps and having traversed many if not most of the passes, using engine braking is a no brainer - just using the brakes intermittently to bleed off a bit of speed when necessary. We also stop fairly regularly to look at the views which uphill allows the engine to cool and downhill allows the brakes to cool.

 

A few years ago in the Alps a friend of mine in his large motorhome was not so thoughtful and cooked his front brakes to such an extent that the plastic wheel trims melted!

 

I have experienced brake fade going North over the Stelvio pass in an old 1991 automatic Jaguar XJ6 on a Crumball Rally. There were 4 largish chaps in the car with full luggage and even selecting the lower gears the beast would not slow, so brakes it had to be. By the time we were reaching Nauders the brakes were smelling and smoking and not working anything like effeciently, necessitating a prolonged lunch stop (liquid).

 

 

[John52]

laimeduck - 2020-01-02 12:58 PM

We also stop fairly regularly to look at the views which uphill allows the engine to cool

That shouldn't be necessary as modern cooling systems are designed for worldwide tropical climates.

Its important to let the engine run for a minute when you stop after a full power climb to keep the oil circulating through the turbo and cooling the bearings. Otherwise heat from the red hot turbo blades can conduct through to the turbo bearings and shortern their life.

[laimeduck]

John52 - 2020-01-02 7:12 PM

 

laimeduck - 2020-01-02 12:58 PM

We also stop fairly regularly to look at the views which uphill allows the engine to cool

That shouldn't be necessary as modern cooling systems are designed for worldwide tropical climates.

Its important to let the engine run for a minute when you stop after a full power climb to keep the oil circulating through the turbo and cooling the bearings. Otherwise heat from the red hot turbo blades can conduct through to the turbo bearings and shortern their life.

Absolutely right and we do that. My engine is however 16 years old so I give it a bit of TLC!

 

[ChrisCM]

John52 - 2020-01-02 7:12 PM

 

laimeduck - 2020-01-02 12:58 PM

We also stop fairly regularly to look at the views which uphill allows the engine to cool

That shouldn't be necessary as modern cooling systems are designed for worldwide tropical climates.

Its important to let the engine run for a minute when you stop after a full power climb to keep the oil circulating through the turbo and cooling the bearings. Otherwise heat from the red hot turbo blades can conduct through to the turbo bearings and shortern their life.

 

Reminds me of a Japanese import Izuzu Bighorn Auto 4x4 I had a few years ago, it was fitted with a "Turbo Timer" which delayed the engine switch off for about 30 seconds after turning of and removing the key! purely to deal with the potential Turbo overheat problem.

[HymerVan]

ChrisCM - 2019-12-30 3:20 PM

 

John52 - 2019-12-27 6:07 PM

 

I believe the seroius danger from motorhome weight is drivers who don't realise how much heat it produces in the brakes when descending a steep hill. Commercial drivers are trained, as part of the test, to use the engine as a brake on long steep hills and descend them slowly. Wheras motorhome drivers have often only driven light vehicles where overheating brakes is not an issue. I've even heard aof a car driving instructor who told his pupils not to use the engine as a brake because brake linings are cheaper - apparently oblivious to the danger of overheating brakes. The engine is well equipped with radiator and fan to dissipate heat.

Brakes are not.

The heavy chassis with bigger wheels has bigger brakes to dissipate a little more heat.

I'd be very wary of long steep descents with a lot of weight on the light chassis.

 

Interesting! quite a few years ago I attended the Essex Police driving school and we were told the same thing, brake pads/linings are cheaper than clutches and gearboxes - use the brakes to slow down not the gearbox but just be in the correct gear when you want to continue/accelerate (And this was prior to austerity!)

 

I attended the then Grampian Police Civilian driving course in the 70s, 80s and 90s and we were consistently trained to apply CMSBGA when approaching a hazard such as a bend, junction, or hill.

Acronym Can My Safety Be Given Away

Course (decide where you are going)

Mirror (check)

Signal (your intentions )

Brake to bring your vehicle to the correct speed to negotiate the hazard

Gear Select an appropriate gear for the negotiation of the hazard, your speed has already been adjusted to take account of any gear change

Accelerate i.e. increase speed if you wish once the hazard has been negotiated. In practice you may be able to/want to accelerate out of say a bend and indeed negotiate the bend under the influence of gentle acceleration.

 

This was part of the Police system of car control (generally referred to as "system" driving.)

Importantly it was considered a fault to return to the brakes or make a further gear change in the hazard. The idea was that you set the car up are regards position speed and gear to negotiate the hazard thereby maintaining the smooth flow of driving.

 

I imagine the principles are still relevant and perhaps police drivers are still similarly trained.

 

Slightly off topic I also learned to extend my observation very far ahead. Something which is facilitated by the higer driving position of a van and extremely useful.

 

Perhaps there is a more recently qualified Class 1 driver out there who can comment.

[Hans]

Well i saw tourists running the Nuremberg race track for fun in germany. mercedes- bmw. Normal cars. I saw ending one whit a big smell coming out of the wheel arches. I said your brakes are gone. Being not ceramic. *-)

[Guest pelmetman]

ChrisCM - 2020-01-03 11:22 AM

 

John52 - 2020-01-02 7:12 PM

 

laimeduck - 2020-01-02 12:58 PM

We also stop fairly regularly to look at the views which uphill allows the engine to cool

That shouldn't be necessary as modern cooling systems are designed for worldwide tropical climates.

Its important to let the engine run for a minute when you stop after a full power climb to keep the oil circulating through the turbo and cooling the bearings. Otherwise heat from the red hot turbo blades can conduct through to the turbo bearings and shortern their life.

 

Reminds me of a Japanese import Izuzu Bighorn Auto 4x4 I had a few years ago, it was fitted with a "Turbo Timer" which delayed the engine switch off for about 30 seconds after turning of and removing the key! purely to deal with the potential Turbo overheat problem.

 

I'd like one of those just for the name :D ..........

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

HymerVan - 2020-01-03 12:48 PM

 

...I imagine the principles are still relevant and perhaps police drivers are still similarly trained...

 

 

The “Roadcraft: The Police Drivers Handbook” document can be purchased on-line (about £10 for a 2013 ‘paper’ version) and there is more information on the following link

 

http://www.roadcraft.co.uk/

 

including a simple quiz

 

http://www.roadcraft.co.uk/roadcraft/roadcraft-quiz/

 

and, for entertainment value, a copy of Tom Topper’s “Very Advanced Driving” booklet (1974, 1984 or 2000 publications) might be worth reading.

 

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/title/advanced-driving/author/topper-a-tom/

[Hans]

Very important to learn. lesson one never drive behind a friend who is very fast and more Skills than you. To end up in Spain like a A- Frame. Rally drivers in old time play whit brakes and clutches. Now 4wd i think to keep track. So going down in italy have your cruise control on. He senses more rapidly than you can when talking to your Kids.

 

[Den]

Hi P & E

 

This thread has gone off on a tangent.

We down sized from a 7.25 mtr A class to a 7 mtr coach built and finally to our

Present 6.4 Malibu PVC.

Storage is not a problem having a large space under the rear bed.

Quality is 1st class.

Supplier Go European 1st class.

Ease of parking specially when you pop into a supermarket ect.

Economy 36 mpg. On the dash computer. Actual 36.3 mpg.

Nice thing is damp tends not to be a problem with PVC’s

We use aires in France off grid most of the time without problem.

Solar panel fitted. 2 batteries. 2500 w inverter. Outside shower & gas point.

I have all that a A class or coach built has.

Go for it. You’ll be very pleased specially if you buy a quality one.

All the best

Den

[Mountainriversea]

No big past experience here, finally got our first van this September.

 

After spending a year looking around at the market, shows, dealers and lots of umming and arring at new and used vans, we finally bought a new van.

The thing we noticed looking at all the various offerings was that the payload seemed to be an inverse of the price, luxury level. We bought a basic level PCV , rather than the high end model with all the bells and whistles but we got a generous payload (nearly 800kg)and a good level of kit, semi-full time comfortable bed, decent sized toilet/shower, comfortable seating, decent insulation etc. What we didn't buy was a lot of heavy stuff that we didn't need.

Yes there are things we will add but all the important things for us were in the van from new.

Having used it a bit now, I think we chose well, for our needs. We also ended up with a 6m van that is easy to park/maneuver and comfortable but maybe not as luxurious as some.

 

Sorry, forgot to say it's a Hobby Vantana Ontour.

 

Bob.

 

[P E Jennings]

Morning everyone & thank you all for your input.

Well, we have done it. We have a WildAx Aurora Leisure XL on order. There were more fors than againsts & our main compromise was the gas tank. Also all our 3 previous vans have been based on Fiat which we have found to be reliable so having a Citroen base will be a first for us.

We are getting a 6.36m vehicle, it still has a very decent payload even after the “ add ons” & I do believe a weighbridge certificate comes with it (The most important item for us).

We are getting a good kitchen, decent size fridge, a wet room (no shower curtain) & a choice of leaving the bed made up or having 2 settees if entertaining. Also appears to have good storage (watch this space)

The icing on the cake, as it were, is being free once again from the weight restrictions on roads and the dreaded GO BOX in Austria which was a nightmare of epic proportions. However, after reading subsequent letters in MMM, we now realise that we got off lightly with that fiasco.

Thank you all once again

[Bop]

P & E Jennings - 2020-01-09 9:48 AM

 

Morning everyone & thank you all for your input.

Well, we have done it. We have a WildAx Aurora Leisure XL on order. There were more fors than againsts & our main compromise was the gas tank. Also all our 3 previous vans have been based on Fiat which we have found to be reliable so having a Citroen base will be a first for us.

We are getting a 6.36m vehicle, it still has a very decent payload even after the “ add ons” & I do believe a weighbridge certificate comes with it (The most important item for us).

We are getting a good kitchen, decent size fridge, a wet room (no shower curtain) & a choice of leaving the bed made up or having 2 settees if entertaining. Also appears to have good storage (watch this space)

The icing on the cake, as it were, is being free once again from the weight restrictions on roads and the dreaded GO BOX in Austria which was a nightmare of epic proportions. However, after reading subsequent letters in MMM, we now realise that we got off lightly with that fiasco.

Thank you all once again

 

If you've chosen the 6.36m variant with most of the options list fitted (awning, solar, tv, 2nd hab), but excluding the tow bar and bike rack then by my reckoning you'll have between 200-225kg as a workable payload, excluding water, bikes, gear, passengers, food etc.

 

It has been mentioned on other forums that this model really struggles with its payload allowance if registered at 3.5T.

 

 

[TheFrenchConnection]

I learned to drive in a 1954 Austin A30 where engine braking was an essential aid and I have had that habit since.

 

Unfortunately this may have been the reason for premature dual mass flywheel failure on my diesel Duster--apparently DMFs don't like the torque reversal.

 

I understand that my Ducato doesn't have a DMF so I'm happy to continue with the engine braking scenario.

 

Incidentally as an IAM member with both car and bike tests and trained as a bike 'Observer' the IAM's position on engine braking was something I struggled to accept - apart from anything else isn't it the only way to be sure you're in the right gear at the right time?