colin Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 FunsterJohn - 2020-01-10 8:04 PM colin - 2020-01-10 8:37 PM FunsterJohn - 2020-01-10 6:36 PM colin - 2020-01-10 6:27 PM If it's as seems I wonder what has happened to those who fired the missile, will they already be in an unmarked grave, or will they be given medals like the US gave to those who shot down an airliner. That is a disgraceful lie and can only have come from someone with rabid anti-American views. No one on the Vicennes was awarded a medal for shooting down the Iranian airliner. Several men were rewarded for completing the entire tour, which was a very dangerous assignment coming as it did in the midst of the Iran-Iraq war in a dangerous stretch of water. If anyone could be blamed it was the captain, not any of his crew, who did what they were ordered to do under the impression that their target was a warplane. However, these incidents highlight the difference between the US and a wicked theocracy. I have no doubt that the latest incident, if the plane was shot down, was unintentional, just as the American's was all those years ago. However, the reaction from the USA was markedly different from that of Iran today. Iran seems to be doing everything it can to frustrate investigation, whereas with days, Reagan admitted the mistake, give his country's sincere apologies and paid tens of millions in compensation. Your appalling accusation, which is without any merit, does you no credit. Several of my family have American citizenship, I have many American friends, I certainly don't have "rabid anti American views", but I suppose those with a blinkered view of the world might think so. I have no problem with the majority of the crew who where given tour medals. I do have an issue with the air warfare coordinator who was awarded the Navy Commendation Medal for this tour, and the Captain who was awarded the Legion of Merit for the tour. I can find no similar awards given to the captains of the US ships which detected the airliner and correctly identified it as such, in fact the captain of USS Sides destroyed his career by commenting that the shooting had been avoidable. Your implication was clear, which was that American servicemen were given medals for shooting down an unarmed civilian aircraft. That is a despicable lie. No one was given a medal for this which was, as the Iranians' actions may prove to be, a dreadful mistake. Neither country has anything to gain and everything to lose by such an action. You are just making things up, I posted that the Iranians will most likely quiely execute those who might have shot down the airliner, whilst the US decorated the officers for their service whilst shooting down an airliner, this is a matter of public record, the citations clearly state the dates covered and that includes the dates they oversaw the negligent killing of civilians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-01-10 7:22 PM John52 - 2020-01-10 7:13 PM jumpstart - 2020-01-10 3:15 PM Pretty clear in the film it was a missile. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51062369 Don’t need a driving license to see that ....eh Birdy? Movies & Photos can be manipulated :-S When was the last time mechanical failure caused a airliner to explode in flight? :-| ......... There have been several airliners which have 'exploded' or broken up in midair due to mechanical or electrical failures, the most infamous would be TWA flight 800 which many eyewitnesses thought had been shot down with a missile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-01-10 4:27 PM Bulletguy - 2020-01-10 4:19 PM Iran following international protocol. https://tinyurl.com/uayae67 https://tinyurl.com/vvzlntl Yeah ......Destroying the evidence *-) ......... The NTSB work on fact....not Mad Hatter speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-01-10 6:42 PM Given the loss of life, most (if not all) of whom were, in terms of middle east conflicts, non-combatants, where on earth does the left-right squabble of UK politics come in? Tweedledum and Tweedledee will find some way. Some kind of enquiry will take place, at the end of which some kind of conclusion will be drawn. You presently know nothing, so, instead of dancing on 176 graves, why not just wait quietly to see what eventually emerges? Exactly....176 innocent people who suffered a tragic and needless loss of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 colin - 2020-01-10 8:15 PM FunsterJohn - 2020-01-10 8:04 PM colin - 2020-01-10 8:37 PM FunsterJohn - 2020-01-10 6:36 PM colin - 2020-01-10 6:27 PM If it's as seems I wonder what has happened to those who fired the missile, will they already be in an unmarked grave, or will they be given medals like the US gave to those who shot down an airliner. That is a disgraceful lie and can only have come from someone with rabid anti-American views. No one on the Vicennes was awarded a medal for shooting down the Iranian airliner. Several men were rewarded for completing the entire tour, which was a very dangerous assignment coming as it did in the midst of the Iran-Iraq war in a dangerous stretch of water. If anyone could be blamed it was the captain, not any of his crew, who did what they were ordered to do under the impression that their target was a warplane. However, these incidents highlight the difference between the US and a wicked theocracy. I have no doubt that the latest incident, if the plane was shot down, was unintentional, just as the American's was all those years ago. However, the reaction from the USA was markedly different from that of Iran today. Iran seems to be doing everything it can to frustrate investigation, whereas with days, Reagan admitted the mistake, give his country's sincere apologies and paid tens of millions in compensation. Your appalling accusation, which is without any merit, does you no credit. Several of my family have American citizenship, I have many American friends, I certainly don't have "rabid anti American views", but I suppose those with a blinkered view of the world might think so. I have no problem with the majority of the crew who where given tour medals. I do have an issue with the air warfare coordinator who was awarded the Navy Commendation Medal for this tour, and the Captain who was awarded the Legion of Merit for the tour. I can find no similar awards given to the captains of the US ships which detected the airliner and correctly identified it as such, in fact the captain of USS Sides destroyed his career by commenting that the shooting had been avoidable. Your implication was clear, which was that American servicemen were given medals for shooting down an unarmed civilian aircraft. That is a despicable lie. No one was given a medal for this which was, as the Iranians' actions may prove to be, a dreadful mistake. Neither country has anything to gain and everything to lose by such an action. You are just making things up, I posted that the Iranians will most likely quiely execute those who might have shot down the airliner, whilst the US decorated the officers for their service whilst shooting down an airliner, this is a matter of public record, the citations clearly state the dates covered and that includes the dates they oversaw the negligent killing of civilians. The International Court of Justice case relating to the attack, "the Aerial Incident of July 3, 1988, (Islamic Republic of Iran v. United States of America)", was dropped on 22 February 1996 following settlement and reparations by the United States. Three years after the incident, Admiral Crowe admitted on American television show Nightline that Vincennes was inside Iranian territorial waters when it launched the missiles. This contradicted earlier navy statements. The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) report of December 1988 placed USS Vincennes well inside Iran's territorial waters. Commander David Carlson, commanding officer of USS Sides, the warship stationed nearest to Vincennes at the time of the incident, is reported to have said that the destruction of the aircraft "marked the horrifying climax to Captain Rogers's aggressiveness, first seen four weeks ago".[38] His comment referred to incidents on 2 June, when Rogers had sailed Vincennes too close to an Iranian frigate undertaking a lawful search of a bulk carrier, launched a helicopter within 2–3 miles (3.2–4.8 km) of a small Iranian craft despite rules of engagement requiring a four-mile (6.4 km) separation, and opened fire on small Iranian military boats. Of those incidents, Carlson commented, "Why do you want an Aegis cruiser out there shooting up boats? It wasn't a smart thing to do." He also said that Iranian forces he had encountered in the area a month prior to the incident were "pointedly non-threatening" and professional. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-01-10 6:42 PM There seem to be four possibilities. 1 It was shot down. 2 It was terrorism. 3 It was a hitherto unknown type of engine failure. 4 It was someone with a camping stove making a brew, and it all went horribly wrong. 5 Meteorite strike. 1 Seems the most likely. 2 Must remain a possibility if 1 is disproved. 3 Seems highly improbable on present "evidence". 4 Seems even more highly improbable. 5 Seems even more even more improbable. Given the loss of life, most (if not all) of whom were, in terms of middle east conflicts, non-combatants, where on earth does the left-right squabble of UK politics come in? Some kind of enquiry will take place, at the end of which some kind of conclusion will be drawn. You presently know nothing, so, instead of dancing on 176 graves, why not just wait quietly to see what eventually emerges? The haters don't wait though ... We've seen it time and again on here ... Israeli gang rape ??? ... Grenfell ??? blah blah blah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7875505/Iran-ADMITS-shooting-Ukrainian-jetliner.html The truth will out :-| .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 FunsterJohn - 2020-01-10 7:59 PM John52 - 2020-01-10 8:55 PM pelmetman - 2020-01-10 7:22 PM John52 - 2020-01-10 7:13 PM jumpstart - 2020-01-10 3:15 PM Pretty clear in the film it was a missile. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51062369 Don’t need a driving license to see that ....eh Birdy? Movies & Photos can be manipulated :-S When was the last time mechanical failure caused a airliner to explode in flight? :-| ......... Dunno Concorde? It was not mechanical failure. Debris on the runway was picked up by the wheels and punctured a fuel tank. You could have found this in two minutes using Google. Yes I know that, and thought it closer to 'mechanical failure' than being shot down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-01-11 8:21 AM https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7875505/Iran-ADMITS-shooting-Ukrainian-jetliner.html The truth will out :-| .......... Even in the Daily Mail sometimes ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunsterJohn Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 John52 - 2020-01-11 9:46 AM Yes I know that, and thought it closer to 'mechanical failure' than being shot down. So nothing to do with mechanical failure then? I'm glad we've cleared that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 Strickly speaking a plane can fly with a ruptured fuel tank and can fly (for a period) on fire, but can’t fly once the fire has severed flight controls . So a loss of flight control brought on by the fire is the cause . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunsterJohn Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-01-11 1:21 PM Strickly speaking a plane can fly with a ruptured fuel tank and can fly (for a period) on fire, but can’t fly once the fire has severed flight controls . So a loss of flight control brought on by the fire is the cause . Congratulations. You have a remarkable grasp of the obvious. If there hadn't been debris on the runway, which punctured the fuel tank, the plane would have had an uneventful flight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 FunsterJohn - 2020-01-11 12:07 PM John52 - 2020-01-11 9:46 AM Yes I know that, and thought it closer to 'mechanical failure' than being shot down. So nothing to do with mechanical failure then? I'm glad we've cleared that up. So how did the lump of metal that punctured the unprotected fuel tank fall off *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunsterJohn Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 John52 - 2020-01-11 2:02 PM FunsterJohn - 2020-01-11 12:07 PM John52 - 2020-01-11 9:46 AM Yes I know that, and thought it closer to 'mechanical failure' than being shot down. So nothing to do with mechanical failure then? I'm glad we've cleared that up. So how did the lump of metal that punctured the unprotected fuel tank fall off *-) The lump of metal was from a previous aircraft that departed the same runway five minutes before Concorde. It didn't fall off the Concorde. Next? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 FunsterJohn - 2020-01-11 12:30 PM jumpstart - 2020-01-11 1:21 PM Strickly speaking a plane can fly with a ruptured fuel tank and can fly (for a period) on fire, but can’t fly once the fire has severed flight controls . So a loss of flight control brought on by the fire is the cause . Congratulations. You have a remarkable grasp of the obvious. If there hadn't been debris on the runway, which punctured the fuel tank, the plane would have had an uneventful flight. Congratulations you’ve just stated the bleeding obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 Just to clarify the obvious, neither the metal debris nor the punctured fuel tank actually caused the plane to crash ,it was the fire that severed flight control and loss of engine power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 FunsterJohn - 2020-01-11 1:12 PM The lump of metal was from a previous aircraft Mechanical Failure as I said Next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-01-11 2:16 PM Just to clarify the obvious, . Always a good idea when Funster John is involved ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunsterJohn Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-01-11 3:16 PM Just to clarify the obvious, neither the metal debris nor the punctured fuel tank actually caused the plane to crash ,it was the fire that severed flight control and loss of engine power. Yes, we know. As I said, you have a remarkable grasp of the obvious. To be pedantic it wasn't the fuel tank that was punctured, but a wing and the resultant shock and knock-on effect caused the fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunsterJohn Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 John52 - 2020-01-11 3:29 PM FunsterJohn - 2020-01-11 1:12 PM The lump of metal was from a previous aircraft Mechanical Failure as I said Next. You really are dim. This was the question - when was the last time mechanical failure caused an airliner to explode in flight? You suggested Concorde. Concorde suffered no mechanical failure. The plane that lost the small strip of metal didn't suffer and its flight was uneventful. So no mechanical failure contributed to any accident with that plane. Must of us are bright enough to understand that when someone asks if a plane has crashed because of mechanical failure, the questioner is asking if a plane crashed because of mechanical failure on that plane. Not if the mechanical failure was from another source, such as a motorcycle breaking down on the runway for instance and causing a plane to crash. According to your brainless thinking that would constitute an aeronautical mechanical failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunsterJohn Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 John52 - 2020-01-11 3:30 PM jumpstart - 2020-01-11 2:16 PM Just to clarify the obvious, . Always a good idea when Funster John is involved ;-) Not for you obviously as I regularly expose your ludicrous claims and lies. Lord Archer got damages forty times the average house price? The Royal family stopped the railway line going as far as Balmoral? You slunk away from that thread as you normally do when when you've been cornered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 FunsterJohn - 2020-01-11 3:03 PM John52 - 2020-01-11 3:30 PM jumpstart - 2020-01-11 2:16 PM Just to clarify the obvious, . Always a good idea when Funster John is involved ;-) Not for you obviously as I regularly expose your ludicrous claims and lies. Lord Archer got damages forty times the average house price? The Royal family stopped the railway line going as far as Balmoral? You slunk away from that thread as you normally do when when you've been cornered. Thats what it cost the Daily Star - how much was 'damages' and how much was 'costs' makes no difference to anyone but you. And who did stop the line going to Balmoral *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 FunsterJohn - 2020-01-11 3:01 PM. This was the question - when was the last time mechanical failure caused an airliner to explode in flight? I never said the mechanical failure was on the same aircraft ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunsterJohn Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 John52 - 2020-01-11 4:35 PM FunsterJohn - 2020-01-11 3:01 PM. This was the question - when was the last time mechanical failure caused an airliner to explode in flight? I never said the mechanical failure was on the same aircraft ;-) Usual dissembling and lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunsterJohn Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 John52 - 2020-01-11 4:33 PM FunsterJohn - 2020-01-11 3:03 PM John52 - 2020-01-11 3:30 PM jumpstart - 2020-01-11 2:16 PM Just to clarify the obvious, . Always a good idea when Funster John is involved ;-) Not for you obviously as I regularly expose your ludicrous claims and lies. Lord Archer got damages forty times the average house price? The Royal family stopped the railway line going as far as Balmoral? You slunk away from that thread as you normally do when when you've been cornered. Thats what it cost the Daily Star - how much was 'damages' and how much was 'costs' makes no difference to anyone but you. And who did stop the line going to Balmoral *-) You said that Archer got 40 times the price of a house. He didn't. It was a lie from you. Costs don't go to the plaintiff. They go to his lawyers. No one stopped the line going to Balmoral. The railway company stopped it a Ballater. Another blatant lie from you. You're a liar who will write anything he thinks will help his case and who hopes that no one will check his mendacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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