Brian Kirby Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Good find Paul. I don't think 747 fully read the link before posting! :-) The reason the EU are introducing the rule is clearly stated (enhanced border security) plus that it applies to the 61 other "third countries" that are granted visa free access to the Schengen area, so is not Brexit related (other than "we" apparently voted for it! :-S). After all, it is quite usual for states to decide how they wish to police their borders. Although the EU is not a "state" (it is technically a confederation of nation states) the introduction of ETIAS is policy agreed by all 27 member states and, as pointed out within the link, is a form of border control that mirrors current practice in the USA and elsewhere. It is for the EU to decide what they consider necessary, and it seems they have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-02-04 6:36 PM Good find Paul. I don't think 747 fully read the link before posting! :-) The reason the EU are introducing the rule is clearly stated (enhanced border security) plus that it applies to the 61 other "third countries" that are granted visa free access to the Schengen area, so is not Brexit related (other than "we" apparently voted for it! :-S). After all, it is quite usual for states to decide how they wish to police their borders. Although the EU is not a "state" (it is technically a confederation of nation states) the introduction of ETIAS is policy agreed by all 27 member states and, as pointed out within the link, is a form of border control that mirrors current practice in the USA and elsewhere. It is for the EU to decide what they consider necessary, and it seems they have. Can you show me where the British Government has said it will require a similar system for EU Nationals Brian? If that is so then I will apologise. My understanding was that EU Nationals could travel to the UK on a Passport, the only restrictions would apply to coming here for employment purposes once a new system was in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-02-04 6:36 PM Good find Paul. I don't think 747 fully read the link before posting! :-) The reason the EU are introducing the rule is clearly stated (enhanced border security) plus that it applies to the 61 other "third countries" that are granted visa free access to the Schengen area, so is not Brexit related (other than "we" apparently voted for it! :-S). After all, it is quite usual for states to decide how they wish to police their borders. Although the EU is not a "state" (it is technically a confederation of nation states) the introduction of ETIAS is policy agreed by all 27 member states and, as pointed out within the link, is a form of border control that mirrors current practice in the USA and elsewhere. It is for the EU to decide what they consider necessary, and it seems they have. You would have thought all the Brexity types would have been cheering this on wouldn't you, same as over the Spain/Gib border issue....."taking back control" etc and all that stuff, but instead see it as the EU "being nasty", failing to grasp the EU is simply protecting and acting in the interests of its member states.....which we once were but no longer are yet some still appear to expect 'specialty'. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 747 - 2020-02-04 7:25 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-02-04 6:36 PM Good find Paul. I don't think 747 fully read the link before posting! :-) The reason the EU are introducing the rule is clearly stated (enhanced border security) plus that it applies to the 61 other "third countries" that are granted visa free access to the Schengen area, so is not Brexit related (other than "we" apparently voted for it! :-S). After all, it is quite usual for states to decide how they wish to police their borders. Although the EU is not a "state" (it is technically a confederation of nation states) the introduction of ETIAS is policy agreed by all 27 member states and, as pointed out within the link, is a form of border control that mirrors current practice in the USA and elsewhere. It is for the EU to decide what they consider necessary, and it seems they have. Can you show me where the British Government has said it will require a similar system for EU Nationals Brian? If that is so then I will apologise. My understanding was that EU Nationals could travel to the UK on a Passport, the only restrictions would apply to coming here for employment purposes once a new system was in place. At the moment they can.....but UK has already stated its intention to end fom. UK gov cannot have everything they want and are not going to get it either. We forfeited our seat at the table four days ago. It has been suggested by the UK Home Office that EU tourists will be able to travel to Britain and Northern Ireland with an eTA visa waiver in the near future. Until this is launched EU visitors can visit with passports as before. https://www.etiasvisa.com/etias-news/etias-visa-how-will-it-affect-uk-citizens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 Why dont they just agree to allow freedom of movement? 8-) Sock Horror (Images of Brexiteers spewing tea all over their iPads) Which nation in Europe has the most citizens living abroad? Its us. about five million or 8% of the population, 1.3 million of them within Europe. The myth that EU Citizens coming here are spongers, taking our jobs and clogging up our services has been exposed as just that, a total myth. Regardless of which its also been proved just how valuable to us these workers are from the NHS to the Cabbage pullers. The government is already having to relax the rules to allow others in from the rest of the world and immigration numbers wont change, they will just come from Asia and Africa if the Europeans all clear off. Immigration from Europe is already declining thanks to Brexit and the nose dive the pound took. So why are we so insistent on ending Free Movement? I Thought it was all about getting control and sovereignty back. Well you will have that so whats the problem? Do you really want millions of elderly ex pat pensioners coming back to the UK and clogging up our services and if foreigners do bother you do you want to see European faces replaced by African and Asian ones? (has to be said). So why are we ending freedom of movement? Why is it such a dirty word? (Two words) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted February 5, 2020 Author Share Posted February 5, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-02-05 8:24 AM (Two words) Political Trick Probably the oldest one in the book - Creating a foreign enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted February 5, 2020 Author Share Posted February 5, 2020 747 - 2020-02-03 11:38 PM A totally unnecessary bit of red tape which will not be echoed by Britain but sounds about right for the EU. 8-) Can you point out one bit of EU 'Red Tape' that Britain did not vote for and which has seriously disadvantaged us *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 John52 - 2020-02-05 12:11 PM Barryd999 - 2020-02-05 8:24 AM (Two words) Political Trick Probably the oldest one in the book - Creating a foreign enemy. I wonder who they will blame in the future then. They cant blame Corbyn anymore or the remainers and very soon they wont be able to blame foreigners or the EU although I suspect they will try the latter two for some time yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-02-05 8:24 AM Which nation in Europe has the most citizens living abroad? Its us. about five million or 8% of the population, 1.3 million of them within Europe. The myth that EU Citizens coming here are spongers, taking our jobs and clogging up our services has been exposed as just that, a total myth. One of the best posts i read on that topic titled, "EU workers stealing British jobs", was met with a reply by one poster who said; "Well they've been doing a pretty good job of 'stealing' work from my bone idle nephew who hasn't done a days work in his life since leaving school 15 years ago and has no intention of working". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-02-05 12:26 PM John52 - 2020-02-05 12:11 PM Barryd999 - 2020-02-05 8:24 AM (Two words) Political Trick Probably the oldest one in the book - Creating a foreign enemy. I wonder who they will blame in the future then. They cant blame Corbyn anymore or the remainers and very soon they wont be able to blame foreigners or the EU although I suspect they will try the latter two for some time yet. The weather, climate change, leaves on the line......anything but themselves though this guy has a short message for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 747 - 2020-02-04 7:25 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-02-04 6:36 PM Good find Paul. I don't think 747 fully read the link before posting! :-) The reason the EU are introducing the rule is clearly stated (enhanced border security) plus that it applies to the 61 other "third countries" that are granted visa free access to the Schengen area, so is not Brexit related (other than "we" apparently voted for it! :-S). After all, it is quite usual for states to decide how they wish to police their borders. Although the EU is not a "state" (it is technically a confederation of nation states) the introduction of ETIAS is policy agreed by all 27 member states and, as pointed out within the link, is a form of border control that mirrors current practice in the USA and elsewhere. It is for the EU to decide what they consider necessary, and it seems they have. Can you show me where the British Government has said it will require a similar system for EU Nationals Brian? If that is so then I will apologise. My understanding was that EU Nationals could travel to the UK on a Passport, the only restrictions would apply to coming here for employment purposes once a new system was in place. I'm not expecting, or looking for, an apology. Your post said "A totally unnecessary bit of red tape which will not be echoed by Britain but sounds about right for the EU". I read that to mean that you saw this as a measure introduced by the EU specifically against the UK. Otherwise, why would you comment in that vein? I was pointing out in reply that it applies to all "third countries" irrespective of their previous relationship with the EU except that, because of that previous relationship, the UK will join the group of 61 other third countries that are eligible for the visa waiver. All those measures are currently in place for third countries under Schengen, and have been since 1999 when the open borders agreement was introduced under the Amsterdam Treaty - with opt-outs for UK and Ireland. Before Brexit neither EU nationals, nor UK nationals, were subject to visa requirements when visiting other EU states - whether or not signatories to the Schengen Treaty. They only affect the UK now because, after Brexit, we become a third country in Schengen terms. ETIAS is merely an electronic passport recognition and recording system that automates the Schengen border controls for third country visitors - so eliminating the present need to stamp passports and manually calculate compliance with the 90 days in 180 days travel duration. It has been in planning since 2012 (under EU LISA), and has no causal relationship to Brexit. Having left the EU, we are now subject to the same third country travel restrictions under Schengen and will/would be so whether or nor not ETIAS is/has been introduced. (For so long as we remain in the Transition period it seems the 90 days in 180 days rule probably does not apply to UK nationals travelling to EU/Schengen states, but I cannot find authoritative confirmation that this is so.) The ETIAS website states: "The European Commission said British citizens will not need visas to visit the European Union for short-term stays. However, this policy recommendation is dependent on the UK continuing to offer reciprocal visa-free access to European Union citizens. On February 1, 2019, the European Council stated: "According to EU rules, visa exemption is granted on condition of reciprocity. The government of the United Kingdom has stated that it does not intend to require a visa from EU citizens travelling to the UK for short stays". (My bold) That reciprocity has yet to be formalised during the negotiations on the future relationship, but the above, as a statement of intent, seems clear enough to me. However, that arrangement would end if the UK government decided to introduce visa requirements for visitors from just one EU member state. So, the visa waiver depends on the continuance of that mutual agreement that no visas are required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 So I was right then Brian. But as you say, things may change during negotiations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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