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Full list of MP's who........


Bulletguy

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.....cheered their success at voting down giving NHS nursing staff, firefighters and police a pay rise three years ago; if your MP is listed, remember NOT to vote for him/her.

 

https://tinyurl.com/r2kcr8u

 

Over the last few weeks we've seen that austerity was never a necessity but a Tory engineered political ideology. Magic money trees suddenly sprouting in abundance with NHS debt wiped and financial support provided to those who need it after realising the catastrophic damage their years of endless cuts have caused.

 

 

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Bulletguy - 2020-04-03 9:47 PM

 

 

.....cheered their success at voting down giving NHS nursing staff, firefighters and police a pay rise three years ago; if your MP is listed, remember NOT to vote for him/her.

 

https://tinyurl.com/r2kcr8u

 

Over the last few weeks we've seen that austerity was never a necessity but a Tory engineered political ideology. Magic money trees suddenly sprouting in abundance with NHS debt wiped and financial support provided to those who need it after realising the catastrophic damage their years of endless cuts have caused.

 

 

Have to say austerity was a necessity and will be again when this c-19 is dealt with. Though more funding is obviously needed tax has to increase . The money is only available because we borrow more.

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Bulletguy - 2020-04-03 9:47 PM .... Over the last few weeks we've seen that austerity was never a necessity but a Tory engineered political ideology. Magic money trees suddenly sprouting in abundance with NHS debt wiped and financial support provided to those who need it after realising the catastrophic damage their years of endless cuts have caused.


It is quite remarkable that some people are blind to the significance of the result of the recent General Election (which most people would regard as a resounding rejection of Corbynism with Labour losing support in its Northern heartlands) and, since then, the development of the coronavirus pandemic and the radical steps which have been necessary to try to deal with it - amazing stuff for a conservative Government to faceup to having to do in a national emergency.

Instead you rationalise it for yourself as a validation of the anti-austerity policies which the Labour Party was advocating in a very different previous context, as of course is Jeremy Corbyn doing himself, claiming to have "won the argument".  
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StuartO - 2020-04-04 8:31 AM
Bulletguy - 2020-04-03 9:47 PM .... Over the last few weeks we've seen that austerity was never a necessity but a Tory engineered political ideology. Magic money trees suddenly sprouting in abundance with NHS debt wiped and financial support provided to those who need it after realising the catastrophic damage their years of endless cuts have caused.

It is quite remarkable that some people are blind to the significance of the result of the recent General Election (which most people would regard as a resounding rejection of Corbynism with Labour losing support in its Northern heartlands) and, since then, the development of the coronavirus pandemic and the radical steps which have been necessary to try to deal with it - amazing stuff for a conservative Government to faceup to having to do in a national emergency.

Instead you rationalise it for yourself as a validation of the anti-austerity policies which the Labour Party was advocating in a very different previous context, as of course is Jeremy Corbyn doing himself, claiming to have "won the argument".  

Its called blind Tory hatred ... The OP has history for it on a number of issues
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Bulletguy - 2020-04-03 9:47 PM .... Over the last few weeks we've seen that austerity was never a necessity but a Tory engineered political ideology. Magic money trees suddenly sprouting in abundance with NHS debt wiped and financial support provided to those who need it after realising the catastrophic damage their years of endless cuts have caused.


I can understand that people like you have rock-solid convictions, more like articles of faith than anything logical, so that you will always be an us-and-them socialist and an irredeemable antiroyalist.  What I find more difficult to grasp is how you can ignore the reality of the General Election result in our democracy.

But you aren't really a democrat are you, and you believe that if only you and those who are truly like-minded, could take and hold power by whatever means might be necessary, you would be able to impose your ideas and make them work.  You and your vociferous but tiny minority.
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And you, Stuart? Are you not merely equal and opposite in your convictions? :-) Is this response not verging on the ad-hominem?

 

The people to listen to on matters relating to the economy are the economists, not the politicians, whose political predispositions - much like those of a large chunk of the electorate - are not the result of intellectual endeavour, but more commonly of acquired personality traits. Economists are far less convinced, as a group, that austerity was necessary, or was necessary to the extent to which it was applied.

 

It is respect for these differences in approach within society that allows democracy to function. Whichever political tribe people belong to in a democracy, they need to recognise that "the other" exists, and will express itself, and that neither tribe has a monopoly on being "right". So argue, yes, but argue with the point made, instead of seeking to dismiss it by discrediting the person who raises it - even if that person is prone to doing likewise! :-D

 

The trick, surely, in a democracy is to answer the criticisms of whichever tribe on their merits, honestly and frankly, with logic and reason, rather then to reach for the "well, you would say that, wouldn't you?" riposte? With that approach, no-one learns, and we remain locked in a permanent, destructive, state of social warfare.

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One thing is for sure....we can’t go on as we are currently doing. Things are going to have to restart before in the words of Trump “ the cure can’t be worse than the disease “ ( probably the only time I agree with him)

Once the hospitals have protective gear and there is testing we are going to have to restart business even if people are dying.

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Brian Kirby - 2020-04-04 11:48 AMAnd you, Stuart? Are you not merely equal and opposite in your convictions? :-)

No, I don't think I am.  There is of course some consistency in the views I form about issues but I have been a floating voter rather than a lifelong anything and I am just as averse to the right wing of political ideas as I am to the left.

Is this response not verging on the ad-hominem?

It's John's ideas and mindset I'm criticising, not his person.  My late cousin was a Scargillite which I never was, but we could share a beer and discuss current affairs enjoyably; I hope I could do the same with John.

The people to listen to on matters relating to the economy are the economists, not the politicians, whose political predispositions - much like those of a large chunk of the electorate - are not the result of intellectual endeavour, but more commonly of acquired personality traits.


I grant you that we are all, in our political views, potentially burdened by our background and experiences, including of course economists, but I think some of us are more capable than others of retaining the capacity to be objective and to strike a balanced view.

Economists are far less convinced, as a group, that austerity was necessary, or was necessary to the extent to which it was applied.

I don't acccept that economists are a homogeneous group - or that you are likely to have any sort of evidence basis upon which you could be their spokesman about austerity.

.... So argue, yes, but argue with the point made, instead of seeking to dismiss it by discrediting the person who raises it - even if that person is prone to doing likewise! :-D

I think I was arguing with John's habitual position and that the inference was that he was a man of utterly fixed ideas which would be dangerous to our demoocracy if the opportunity to apply them ever came within his reach.  Both right and left wing politics have a history of becoming totalitarian.

The trick, surely, in a democracy is to answer the criticisms of whichever tribe on their merits, honestly and frankly, with logic and reason, rather then to reach for the "well, you would say that, wouldn't you?"  .... 

The trick in a democracy, if it is to survive, is for enough of us to be willing to accept the democratically expressed view, rather than to keep sounding off with a contrary view from our soap box indefinitely.  I voted remain but I accepted the majority view and look forward to making the best of Brexit.
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Seems odd that one of our members doesnt care for the "well , you would say that" approach used against him and others never ending thinly disguised Tory bashing yet favoured the vote for anyone other than a Tory approach to the last election ... One surely cant be surprised that given his election approach and obvious dislike of all things Tory most sane folk would obviously come to the conclusion that he and others on here could never do anything other than bash the Tories , even using a pandemic and fire tragedy as bashing tools ... Lordy
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StuartO - 2020-04-04 1:55 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2020-04-04 11:48 AMAnd you, Stuart? Are you not merely equal and opposite in your convictions? :-)

No, I don't think I am.  There is of course some consistency in the views I form about issues but I have been a floating voter rather than a lifelong anything and I am just as averse to the right wing of political ideas as I am to the left.

My mistake. I had you as more "dyed in the wool" :-)

Is this response not verging on the ad-hominem?

It's John's ideas and mindset I'm criticising, not his person.  My late cousin was a Scargillite which I never was, but we could share a beer and discuss current affairs enjoyably; I hope I could do the same with John.

Have you perhaps confused Paul (Bulletguy) with Peter (John52)?

The people to listen to on matters relating to the economy are the economists, not the politicians, whose political predispositions - much like those of a large chunk of the electorate - are not the result of intellectual endeavour, but more commonly of acquired personality traits.

I grant you that we are all, in our political views, potentially burdened by our background and experiences, including of course economists, but I think some of us are more capable than others of retaining the capacity to be objective and to strike a balanced view.

Undoubtedly.

Economists are far less convinced, as a group, that austerity was necessary, or was necessary to the extent to which it was applied.

I don't acccept that economists are a homogeneous group - or that you are likely to have any sort of evidence basis upon which you could be their spokesman about austerity.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, but that was my point - that they do not have a consensual opinion on austerity - or pretty much anything else, for that matter! :-) I was making no such claim.

So argue, yes, but argue with the point made, instead of seeking to dismiss it by discrediting the person who raises it - even if that person is prone to doing likewise! :-D

I think I was arguing with John's habitual position and that the inference was that he was a man of utterly fixed ideas which would be dangerous to our demoocracy if the opportunity to apply them ever came within his reach.  Both right and left wing politics have a history of becoming totalitarian.

Agreed

The trick, surely, in a democracy is to answer the criticisms of whichever tribe on their merits, honestly and frankly, with logic and reason, rather than to reach for the "well, you would say that, wouldn't you?"  .... 

The trick in a democracy, if it is to survive, is for enough of us to be willing to accept the democratically expressed view, rather than to keep sounding off with a contrary view from our soap box indefinitely.  I voted remain but I accepted the majority view and look forward to making the best of Brexit.

With the first point, I agree. To the second, I would only say that acceptance should not be taken to infer agreement, and from that, that any who disagree should be mute. The decision was made, so it must be accepted, but those who disagree should continue to argue their case until either events, or superior argument, render all further disagreement pointless. Political debate does not cease after an election, it is a necessary safety valve. Opposition is still an essential ingredient of democracy. When argument dies, democracy dies.

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StuartO - 2020-04-04 8:31 AM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-04-03 9:47 PM .... Over the last few weeks we've seen that austerity was never a necessity but a Tory engineered political ideology. Magic money trees suddenly sprouting in abundance with NHS debt wiped and financial support provided to those who need it after realising the catastrophic damage their years of endless cuts have caused.
It is quite remarkable that some people are blind to the significance of the result of the recent General Election (which most people would regard as a resounding rejection of Corbynism with Labour losing support in its Northern heartlands) and, since then, the development of the coronavirus pandemic and the radical steps which have been necessary to try to deal with it - amazing stuff for a conservative Government to faceup to having to do in a national emergency.

 

Instead you rationalise it for yourself as a validation of the anti-austerity policies which the Labour Party was advocating in a very different previous context, as of course is Jeremy Corbyn doing himself, claiming to have "won the argument".

The irony Stuart is the NHS which has long been the backbone of pride in this country was founded 72 years ago under Socialism by a Socialist government to provide a healthcare system for all and no longer exclusive to the wealthy. To me it's the envy of many countries, a public institution which is the jewel in the crown everyone, rich or poor, should do their utmost to protect yet it's model flies in the face of capitalism which Conservatism has chipped away at over the years by gross underfunding, severe understaffing and left inadequately equipped. A service government now turn to using socialist principles frantically injecting cash, equipment and staff previously deprived of for so long after realising the error of their ways. It's a shame it's taken this pandemic but the warnings were there over three years ago when equipping all frontline staff with ppe equipment was recommended in preparation for a flu pandemic, but rejected as "too costly". Now we have something much more serious.

 

'Corbynism' as you call it was rejected by 'northern heartlands' for no other reason than Johnsons 'oven ready' Brexit sounded more appealing, and the incessant media smear campaign of 'antisemitism' against Corbyn proved a resounding success. Have you not noticed the deafening silence on that issue by the same media since? More irony again in that three of msm's main Johnson cheerleaders, the DM, Times and Torygraph, have now turned against Johnson leading with previously unthinkable headline front page articles. For that to occur is a damning indictment of government.

 

Earlier today i was listening to a scientist explaining the development of vaccines and the time it can take but an important point he made was scientists worldwide are currently working around the clock on developing a vaccine and sharing their information with others on a global scale. This will be a vaccine for all.....not just 'a country'. Politicians could take a leaf from their book and do the same. Brexit is irrelevant now......containment of this deadly virus and saving lives matters more.

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I'm not going to do another blow by blow response, it took far too long last time!

Instead I'll say again that economists are a mixed bunch and there is no consensus among them, so that bit of your post was nonesense.

As far as your endless soap box routine about the evils of Brexit I still think you went too far and too long and that you and the other people (eg Sir Kier Starmer) who just wouldn't shut up and were trying every trick in the book to demand a re-run referendum etc were guilty of treason and deserve to be sent into exile (without access to the internet) for a minimum period  of ten years!
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StuartO - 2020-04-04 4:59 PM

 

As far as your endless soap box routine about the evils of Brexit I still think you went too far and too long and that you and the other people (eg Sir Kier Starmer) who just wouldn't shut up and were trying every trick in the book to demand a re-run referendum etc were guilty of treason and deserve to be sent into exile (without access to the internet) for a minimum period of ten years!

Ian Hislop summed that attitude up in 60 seconds on QT back in July 2016. As for 'guilty of treason'.....i never had you down as a Wail reader! (lol)

 

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Bulletguy - 2020-04-04 5:27 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-04-04 4:59 PM

 

As far as your endless soap box routine about the evils of Brexit I still think you went too far and too long and that you and the other people (eg Sir Kier Starmer) who just wouldn't shut up and were trying every trick in the book to demand a re-run referendum etc were guilty of treason and deserve to be sent into exile (without access to the internet) for a minimum period of ten years!

Ian Hislop summed that attitude up in 60 seconds on QT back in July 2016. As for 'guilty of treason'.....i never had you down as a Wail reader! (lol)

 

 

If Ian Hislop is your voice of reason kinda says it all

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StuartO - 2020-04-04 4:59 PM

 

1 I'm not going to do another blow by blow response, it took far too long last time!

 

2 Instead I'll say again that economists are a mixed bunch and there is no consensus among them, so that bit of your post was nonesense.

 

3 As far as your endless soap box routine about the evils of Brexit I still think you went too far and too long and that you and the other people (eg Sir Kier Starmer) who just wouldn't shut up and were trying every trick in the book to demand a re-run referendum etc were guilty of treason and deserve to be sent into exile (without access to the internet) for a minimum period  of ten years!

 

1 Understood.

 

2 But, if you read my post, that is not what I said, so it probably would appear nonsensical.

 

3 Then I respectfully disagree with you, for reasons well rehearsed. However, I think treason outrageous, since it was, and is, the best interests of the county that I seek to uphold. I'll not trade insults.

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Brian Kirby - 2020-04-04 7:39 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-04-04 4:59 PM

 

1 I'm not going to do another blow by blow response, it took far too long last time!

 

2 Instead I'll say again that economists are a mixed bunch and there is no consensus among them, so that bit of your post was nonesense.

 

3 As far as your endless soap box routine about the evils of Brexit I still think you went too far and too long and that you and the other people (eg Sir Kier Starmer) who just wouldn't shut up and were trying every trick in the book to demand a re-run referendum etc were guilty of treason and deserve to be sent into exile (without access to the internet) for a minimum period  of ten years!

 

1 Understood.

 

2 But, if you read my post, that is not what I said, so it probably would appear nonsensical.

 

3 Then I respectfully disagree with you, for reasons well rehearsed. However, I think treason outrageous, since it was, and is, the best interests of the county that I seek to uphold. I'll not trade insults.

 

Cant see a single insult in Stuarts post ... Gogglevision obviously ??? ... Again

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Brian, don’t take my teasing remark about treason too literally, I couldn’t find the smiley key.  Having said that presumably Guy Fawkes thought he was acting in the best interests of the Country at the time too.  Surely a democratic vote is a watershed moment and it obliges a true democrat to be respectful and submissive rather than rebellious for at least long enough for the outcome to be given a chance to succeed?
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StuartO - 2020-04-04 10:11 PM

 

Brian, don’t take my teasing remark about treason too literally, I couldn’t find the smiley key.  Having said that presumably Guy Fawkes thought he was acting in the best interests of the Country at the time too.  Surely a democratic vote is a watershed moment and it obliges a true democrat to be respectful and submissive rather than rebellious for at least long enough for the outcome to be given a chance to succeed?

 

Our Brian struggles with humour , he once thought I actually meant someone had hacked into my personal settings on here and posted stuff !!! ... As for him or the squad respecting the Brexit vote or prolly any other vote other than one that might eventually go their way is asking a lot

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Democracy = being told the truth and given the facts upon which to base your vote.

 

Brexit = lies, lies and more lies abou the EU in relation to budget, rules, future members, support.....fraudulent in the extreme in terms of financial backing, foreign interference etc., etc., and backed by media supporting lies, lies and more lies.

 

 

Where is the democracy in this?????

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HarveyHeaven - 2020-04-05 9:13 AMDemocracy = being told the truth and given the facts upon which to base your vote.Brexit = lies, lies and more lies abou the EU in relation to budget, rules, future members, support.....fraudulent in the extreme in terms of financial backing, foreign interference etc., etc., and backed by media supporting lies, lies and more lies.Where is the democracy in this?????


There are many versions of democracy and ours is based on universal franchise and free discussion, which includes of course partisan individuals and groups making their points in all sorts of way, not all by any means all honestly  - it's their right to say it their way.  You cannot make truthfulness a pre-condition of participation in the discussion unless you can contrive a universally acceptable way of someone deciding what is true.  Your view of what was not true is merely your view and others held many different versions.

Believing that the other side told lies (even if some of  them didn't also believe that your side told lies) is no excuse for not accepting the result of the Referendum, especially if you don't make your challenge until after you have lost.  Democracy requires acceptance of a democratic vote by all.

Challenging the decison made by Referendum (even just by harping on and on about it) is no better than an act of violent rebellion against democracy and warrants violent repression if necessary.  It's not good enough that you are convinced that you were right and the majority was wrong, you had your vote prior to which you had your say, now it's time to submit and accept until the next opportunity for voting comes. 

Then you can argue for rejoining the EU if you want to but in the meantime let it drop and join in the effort to make Brexit work.
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HarveyHeaven - 2020-04-05 9:13 AM

 

Democracy = being told the truth and given the facts upon which to base your vote.

 

Brexit = lies, lies and more lies abou the EU in relation to budget, rules, future members, support.....fraudulent in the extreme in terms of financial backing, foreign interference etc., etc., and backed by media supporting lies, lies and more lies.

 

 

Where is the democracy in this?????

 

 

You failed to mention the truthful limitations and failures of the EU. Democracy is the discussion.

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StuartO - 2020-04-05 12:10 PM
HarveyHeaven - 2020-04-05 9:13 AMDemocracy = being told the truth and given the facts upon which to base your vote.Brexit = lies, lies and more lies abou the EU in relation to budget, rules, future members, support.....fraudulent in the extreme in terms of financial backing, foreign interference etc., etc., and backed by media supporting lies, lies and more lies.Where is the democracy in this?????

There are many versions of democracy and ours is based on universal franchise and free discussion, which includes of course partisan individuals and groups making their points in all sorts of way, not all by any means all honestly  - it's their right to say it their way.  You cannot make truthfulness a pre-condition of participation in the discussion unless you can contrive a universally acceptable way of someone deciding what is true.  Your view of what was not true is merely your view and others held many different versions.

Believing that the other side told lies (even if some of  them didn't also believe that your side told lies) is no excuse for not accepting the result of the Referendum, especially if you don't make your challenge until after you have lost.  Democracy requires acceptance of a democratic vote by all.

Challenging the decison made by Referendum (even just by harping on and on about it) is no better than an act of violent rebellion against democracy and warrants violent repression if necessary.  It's not good enough that you are convinced that you were right and the majority was wrong, you had your vote prior to which you had your say, now it's time to submit and accept until the next opportunity for voting comes. 

Then you can argue for rejoining the EU if you want to but in the meantime let it drop and join in the effort to make Brexit work.

Join the effort to make Brexit work? Do you think some of us intend to become saboteurs or something? I for one still think its the most bonkers idea ever but its not down to me to make it work. Its down to the rag bag bunch of politicians that the country saw fit to elect.Tell you what though. With shortages of food on the horizon and likely huge price hikes I wonder how long it will be before even Brexiteers start thinking that adding to the current crisis by cutting ourselves out of the single market and customs union might not be the wisest decision now or even in the distant future.
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HarveyHeaven - 2020-04-05 9:13 AM

 

Democracy = being told the truth and given the facts upon which to base your vote.

 

Brexit = lies, lies and more lies abou the EU in relation to budget, rules, future members, support.....fraudulent in the extreme in terms of financial backing, foreign interference etc., etc., and backed by media supporting lies, lies and more lies.

 

 

Where is the democracy in this?????

 

In a democracy lies are told by all sides ... Its not rocket science

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Barryd999 - 2020-04-05 2:07 PM
StuartO - 2020-04-05 12:10 PM
HarveyHeaven - 2020-04-05 9:13 AMDemocracy = being told the truth and given the facts upon which to base your vote.Brexit = lies, lies and more lies abou the EU in relation to budget, rules, future members, support.....fraudulent in the extreme in terms of financial backing, foreign interference etc., etc., and backed by media supporting lies, lies and more lies.Where is the democracy in this?????

There are many versions of democracy and ours is based on universal franchise and free discussion, which includes of course partisan individuals and groups making their points in all sorts of way, not all by any means all honestly  - it's their right to say it their way.  You cannot make truthfulness a pre-condition of participation in the discussion unless you can contrive a universally acceptable way of someone deciding what is true.  Your view of what was not true is merely your view and others held many different versions.

Believing that the other side told lies (even if some of  them didn't also believe that your side told lies) is no excuse for not accepting the result of the Referendum, especially if you don't make your challenge until after you have lost.  Democracy requires acceptance of a democratic vote by all.

Challenging the decison made by Referendum (even just by harping on and on about it) is no better than an act of violent rebellion against democracy and warrants violent repression if necessary.  It's not good enough that you are convinced that you were right and the majority was wrong, you had your vote prior to which you had your say, now it's time to submit and accept until the next opportunity for voting comes. 

Then you can argue for rejoining the EU if you want to but in the meantime let it drop and join in the effort to make Brexit work.

Join the effort to make Brexit work? Do you think some of us intend to become saboteurs or something? I for one still think its the most bonkers idea ever but its not down to me to make it work. Its down to the rag bag bunch of politicians that the country saw fit to elect.Tell you what though. With shortages of food on the horizon and likely huge price hikes I wonder how long it will be before even Brexiteers start thinking that adding to the current crisis by cutting ourselves out of the single market and customs union might not be the wisest decision now or even in the distant future.
Yeh but think of all that fish we will have.
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colluding with lies, deceit and foreign interference is NOT democratic,,,,no matter that you may be happy to accept lies, fraud and corruption as your version of democracy....I am not and nor will I ever conclude that Brexit was anything but fraudulent and corrupt and the most undemocratic event ever to have taken place in this country and indeed has destroyed a country which was once a great country and in it's place created a cesspit of lies, deceit and corruption which has now become the norm....no thanks...no amount of explanation can ever change the FACTS..Brexit was utterly fraudulent.
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