Full list of MP's who........

[Brian Kirby]

StuartO - 2020-04-04 10:11 PM

 

1 Brian, don’t take my teasing remark about treason too literally, I couldn’t find the smiley key.  

 

2 Having said that presumably Guy Fawkes thought he was acting in the best interests of the Country at the time too.  Surely a democratic vote is a watershed moment and it obliges a true democrat to be respectful and submissive rather than rebellious for at least long enough for the outcome to be given a chance to succeed?

 

1 That's a relief!

 

2 I haven't rebelled, I merely disagree. I'm unimpressed by the "majority must be right" argument. It is being applied as a kind of bullying. Agree with us, or else shut up! NO!

 

The referendum outcome must be followed, of course, but I remain totally unconvinced by the arguments put forward in support of Brexit, because they rely on emotion and belief, rather than reason and logic. I think they present a false prospectus, and I see no reason to change my mind on that. So I'm sorry, but until I see a persuasive, logical, reasoned, argument, or the physical evidence that leaving was the better option, I shall remain convinced that leaving will prove an economic mistake of historic proportions. That conclusion is now further reinforced by the unforeseeable, but inescapable, economic impact of Covid-19.

[Barryd999]

HarveyHeaven - 2020-04-05 3:14 PM

 

colluding with lies, deceit and foreign interference is NOT democratic,,,,no matter that you may be happy to accept lies, fraud and corruption as your version of democracy....I am not and nor will I ever conclude that Brexit was anything but fraudulent and corrupt and the most undemocratic event ever to have taken place in this country and indeed has destroyed a country which was once a great country and in it's place created a cesspit of lies, deceit and corruption which has now become the norm....no thanks...no amount of explanation can ever change the FACTS..Brexit was utterly fraudulent.

 

Agree wholeheartedly. Lying it seems is now just Ok. The arguments being that politicians have always lied so it must be alright. Have they? On this monumental scale? As long as they remain untouchable with their lies nothing will change.

[Brian Kirby]

jumpstart - 2020-04-05 12:53 PM...…………….You failed to mention the truthful limitations and failures of the EU. Democracy is the discussion.

For that statement to carry weight, it would be necessary to instance the "truthful limitations and failures" that you have in mind. Otherwise, it is just mere words.

[Birdbrain]

Barryd999 - 2020-04-05 3:26 PM

 

HarveyHeaven - 2020-04-05 3:14 PM

 

colluding with lies, deceit and foreign interference is NOT democratic,,,,no matter that you may be happy to accept lies, fraud and corruption as your version of democracy....I am not and nor will I ever conclude that Brexit was anything but fraudulent and corrupt and the most undemocratic event ever to have taken place in this country and indeed has destroyed a country which was once a great country and in it's place created a cesspit of lies, deceit and corruption which has now become the norm....no thanks...no amount of explanation can ever change the FACTS..Brexit was utterly fraudulent.

 

Agree wholeheartedly. Lying it seems is now just Ok. The arguments being that politicians have always lied so it must be alright. Have they? On this monumental scale? As long as they remain untouchable with their lies nothing will change.

 

Oh Lordy the squad are back on Brexit lies while conveniently forgetting both sides lied and fudged the truth ... Hate on haters

[Bulletguy]

HarveyHeaven - 2020-04-05 3:14 PM

 

colluding with lies, deceit and foreign interference is NOT democratic,,,,no matter that you may be happy to accept lies, fraud and corruption as your version of democracy....I am not and nor will I ever conclude that Brexit was anything but fraudulent and corrupt and the most undemocratic event ever to have taken place in this country and indeed has destroyed a country which was once a great country and in it's place created a cesspit of lies, deceit and corruption which has now become the norm....no thanks...no amount of explanation can ever change the FACTS..Brexit was utterly fraudulent.

Chris Wylies damning testimony to the DCM&S Committee of MP's laid bare the tactics used to subvert democracy.

 

[Barryd999]

Birdbrain - 2020-04-05 3:47 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2020-04-05 3:26 PM

 

HarveyHeaven - 2020-04-05 3:14 PM

 

colluding with lies, deceit and foreign interference is NOT democratic,,,,no matter that you may be happy to accept lies, fraud and corruption as your version of democracy....I am not and nor will I ever conclude that Brexit was anything but fraudulent and corrupt and the most undemocratic event ever to have taken place in this country and indeed has destroyed a country which was once a great country and in it's place created a cesspit of lies, deceit and corruption which has now become the norm....no thanks...no amount of explanation can ever change the FACTS..Brexit was utterly fraudulent.

 

Agree wholeheartedly. Lying it seems is now just Ok. The arguments being that politicians have always lied so it must be alright. Have they? On this monumental scale? As long as they remain untouchable with their lies nothing will change.

 

Oh Lordy the squad are back on Brexit lies while conveniently forgetting both sides lied and fudged the truth ... Hate on haters

 

Its not just Brexit though, its everything. Its just the way it is now and half the country seem to be just fine with that as its the horse they backed. Its just wrong, totally wrong. Pointless arguing the toss about Brexit but your not seriously suggesting the remain side told as many lies as Johnson and his chums.

[Birdbrain]

Barryd999 - 2020-04-05 4:28 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-04-05 3:47 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2020-04-05 3:26 PM

 

HarveyHeaven - 2020-04-05 3:14 PM

 

colluding with lies, deceit and foreign interference is NOT democratic,,,,no matter that you may be happy to accept lies, fraud and corruption as your version of democracy....I am not and nor will I ever conclude that Brexit was anything but fraudulent and corrupt and the most undemocratic event ever to have taken place in this country and indeed has destroyed a country which was once a great country and in it's place created a cesspit of lies, deceit and corruption which has now become the norm....no thanks...no amount of explanation can ever change the FACTS..Brexit was utterly fraudulent.

 

Agree wholeheartedly. Lying it seems is now just Ok. The arguments being that politicians have always lied so it must be alright. Have they? On this monumental scale? As long as they remain untouchable with their lies nothing will change.

 

Oh Lordy the squad are back on Brexit lies while conveniently forgetting both sides lied and fudged the truth ... Hate on haters

 

Its not just Brexit though, its everything. Its just the way it is now and half the country seem to be just fine with that as its the horse they backed. Its just wrong, totally wrong. Pointless arguing the toss about Brexit but your not seriously suggesting the remain side told as many lies as Johnson and his chums.

 

Your saying its so different now with politicians lying , well show me a time when it was more honest ???

[Birdbrain]

Bulletguy - 2020-04-05 4:00 PM

 

HarveyHeaven - 2020-04-05 3:14 PM

 

colluding with lies, deceit and foreign interference is NOT democratic,,,,no matter that you may be happy to accept lies, fraud and corruption as your version of democracy....I am not and nor will I ever conclude that Brexit was anything but fraudulent and corrupt and the most undemocratic event ever to have taken place in this country and indeed has destroyed a country which was once a great country and in it's place created a cesspit of lies, deceit and corruption which has now become the norm....no thanks...no amount of explanation can ever change the FACTS..Brexit was utterly fraudulent.

Chris Wylies damning testimony to the DCM&S Committee of MP's laid bare the tactics used to subvert democracy.

 

 

You are aware Chris Wylie is gay ??? ... A "Pansy Boy" as you call them

[jumpstart]

Brian Kirby - 2020-04-05 3:30 PM

 

jumpstart - 2020-04-05 12:53 PM...…………….You failed to mention the truthful limitations and failures of the EU. Democracy is the discussion.

For that statement to carry weight, it would be necessary to instance the "truthful limitations and failures" that you have in mind. Otherwise, it is just mere words.

 

God do we really have to go through all that again?

[Brian Kirby]

jumpstart - 2020-04-05 5:01 PM

Brian Kirby - 2020-04-05 3:30 PM

jumpstart - 2020-04-05 12:53 PM...…………….You failed to mention the truthful limitations and failures of the EU. Democracy is the discussion.

For that statement to carry weight, it would be necessary to instance the "truthful limitations and failures" that you have in mind. Otherwise, it is just mere words.

God do we really have to go through all that again?

Only if you want to. :-) After all, it was your comment, so it seemed rude to just ignore it. :-D

[Brian Kirby]

Birdbrain - 2020-04-05 4:32 PM.....................….Your saying its so different now with politicians lying , well show me a time when it was more honest ???

Not sure what you're arguing. That misleading the electorate is always OK, because that is how elections have always been won? Do you include all elections in that sweeping generalisation, or only some? Was that also how the 2019 election was won?

 

But a referendum is not an election, and the campaigners were not the political parties, but self-interested pressure groups. The pressure groups had multiple backers, some of whom exceeded their funding allowances. Others, such as parts of the national press, had been exaggerating and distorting what the EU was, and how it functions, for decades - in order merely to sell more of their papers. Add that both main parties were split on Europe, and neither gave (or has ever given) a clear lead on membership or otherwise, for fear of exacerbating their own splits. It was an appallingly policed campaign on both sides, pitting emotion against reason, and emotion won.

 

The outcome will determine the economic health of the UK for years to come. If, as I strongly suspect will prove the case, it turns out to be economically damaging, everyone will, in various ways, become worse off. But, right or wrong, that will be what they voted for. When they, plus the 13 million who didn't vote, realise that is what they have brought upon themselves, who will they blame? Themselves, for being short sighted and easily manipulated, or those who they will rightly then realise, had been misleading them? And how will that realisation manifest itself? Peacefully, or otherwise?

 

Spin and exaggerated claims are part of election campaigning, but each party has equal access to the mainstream media so can challenge the inaccurate claims. If, after the result is known, the answer is poor government, we get another bite at the cherry after a max five years. And if we are then dissatisfied, appoint another party to take over.

 

Not so with the 2016 referendum. It will set the UK on a course that will impact the standard of living of everyone in this country for a generation and more. Undoubtedly people voted for what they thought they would get, but did they vote for what they are actually going to get? That is why the lies and distortions matter.

[StuartO]

Brian, you may be absolutely convinced that you are right and the democratic majority was hoodwinked and you might also hold a strong conviction that the 2016 Referendum should never have been held but since it was held, the result simply has to be respected - can’t you see that?

[Birdbrain]

Brian Kirby - 2020-04-05 6:06 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-04-05 4:32 PM.....................….Your saying its so different now with politicians lying , well show me a time when it was more honest ???

Not sure what you're arguing. That misleading the electorate is always OK, because that is how elections have always been won? Do you include all elections in that sweeping generalisation, or only some? Was that also how the 2019 election was won?

 

But a referendum is not an election, and the campaigners were not the political parties, but self-interested pressure groups. The pressure groups had multiple backers, some of whom exceeded their funding allowances. Others, such as parts of the national press, had been exaggerating and distorting what the EU was, and how it functions, for decades - in order merely to sell more of their papers. Add that both main parties were split on Europe, and neither gave (or has ever given) a clear lead on membership or otherwise, for fear of exacerbating their own splits. It was an appallingly policed campaign on both sides, pitting emotion against reason, and emotion won.

 

The outcome will determine the economic health of the UK for years to come. If, as I strongly suspect will prove the case, it turns out to be economically damaging, everyone will, in various ways, become worse off. But, right or wrong, that will be what they voted for. When they, plus the 13 million who didn't vote, realise that is what they have brought upon themselves, who will they blame? Themselves, for being short sighted and easily manipulated, or those who they will rightly then realise, had been misleading them? And how will that realisation manifest itself? Peacefully, or otherwise?

 

Spin and exaggerated claims are part of election campaigning, but each party has equal access to the mainstream media so can challenge the inaccurate claims. If, after the result is known, the answer is poor government, we get another bite at the cherry after a max five years. And if we are then dissatisfied, appoint another party to take over.

 

Not so with the 2016 referendum. It will set the UK on a course that will impact the standard of living of everyone in this country for a generation and more. Undoubtedly people voted for what they thought they would get, but did they vote for what they are actually going to get? That is why the lies and distortions matter.

 

I asked a question which you answered without an answer to my question ??? ... No one is saying lying is acceptable in any walk of life , I personally dislike it and thats why I ask the liars , including you on here to prove what they say time and again with no proof about me ... You and the other hate squad members show no proof so why are you any better than those you trash ... I do show proof of the hate by the way as I have shown with chief haters homophobic attacks on me ... Hate on Brian , hate on

[Birdbrain]

StuartO - 2020-04-05 6:26 PM

 

Brian, you may be absolutely convinced that you are right and the democratic majority was hoodwinked and you might also hold a strong conviction that the 2016 Referendum should never have been held but since it was held, the result simply has to be respected - can’t you see that?

 

No ... Never

[Brian Kirby]

StuartO - 2020-04-05 6:26 PM

 

Brian, you may be absolutely convinced that you are right and the democratic majority was hoodwinked and you might also hold a strong conviction that the 2016 Referendum should never have been held but since it was held, the result simply has to be respected - can’t you see that?

Yes, I thought I had explained that. I have no choice but to accept/respect the outcome. I can't prevent the UK from leaving the EU, can I? I can't sabotage that can I? As things stand, we shall leave. But respecting the outcome does not impose on me a duty to agree with what I consider a damaging decision.

 

I am captured by a hoard I do not understand; I am being dragged against my will - do not expect me to "go gentle into that good night"! I'm with Dylan, "Old age should burn and rave at close of day"; and I shall "Rage, rage against the dying of the light"!

[Brian Kirby]

Birdbrain - 2020-04-05 6:41 PM……………………………..

I asked a question which you answered without an answer to my question ??? ... No one is saying lying is acceptable in any walk of life , I personally dislike it and thats why I ask the liars , including you on here to prove what they say time and again with no proof about me ... You and the other hate squad members show no proof so why are you any better than those you trash ... I do show proof of the hate by the way as I have shown with chief haters homophobic attacks on me ... Hate on Brian , hate on

Your question is not one question, it is two questions. You ask when it was better, which implies that you acquiesce in the dishonesty, and think I should do likewise. That raises the question of acceptance, which is the wider point. That is the question I have answered. If you want the simple, literal, black and white, answer that I thought it pointless to answer, probably before 1974.

 

Where is your proof of all this hatred? Proof is not citing one example of a statement to which you reasonably object on the part of one contributor, and then assign the same characteristics to anyone who agrees with that person on other matters.

 

As to me lying, where? You really need to show that, seriously. You do realise that a lie is a deliberate untruth that is intended to deceive, don't you?

[Birdbrain]

Brian Kirby - 2020-04-05 7:18 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-04-05 6:41 PM……………………………..

I asked a question which you answered without an answer to my question ??? ... No one is saying lying is acceptable in any walk of life , I personally dislike it and thats why I ask the liars , including you on here to prove what they say time and again with no proof about me ... You and the other hate squad members show no proof so why are you any better than those you trash ... I do show proof of the hate by the way as I have shown with chief haters homophobic attacks on me ... Hate on Brian , hate on

Your question is not one question, it is two questions. You ask when it was better, which implies that you acquiesce in the dishonesty, and think I should do likewise. That raises the question of acceptance, which is the wider point. That is the question I have answered. If you want the simple, literal, black and white, answer that I thought it pointless to answer, probably before 1974.

 

Where is your proof of all this hatred? Proof is not citing one example of a statement to which you reasonably object on the part of one contributor, and then assign the same characteristics to anyone who agrees with that person on other matters.

 

As to me lying, where? You really need to show that, seriously. You do realise that a lie is a deliberate untruth that is intended to deceive, don't you?

 

I asked one question which was actually not for you but you jumped in Brian style ... If you think asking when politics was more honest is two questions then thats your look out ... Youve answered to that question in a way before 1974 yet only seem to take issue with the now and not the previous 30 odd years ??? ... You hate and lie Brian , call me all sorts without any evidence what so ever ... For example you call me an "extremist" saying Chatterbox has many examples of my extremism but when I ask you to show any , just one of those examples you show nowt , so you are a liar are you not ... Maybe a fantasist ???

[Bulletguy]

Brian Kirby - 2020-04-05 6:06 PM

 

It was an appallingly policed campaign on both sides, pitting emotion against reason, and emotion won.

Having read Cummings' article on 'how we won', i get the impression even he would agree with that as emotion was key to their campaign.

 

The outcome will determine the economic health of the UK for years to come. If, as I strongly suspect will prove the case, it turns out to be economically damaging, everyone will, in various ways, become worse off. But, right or wrong, that will be what they voted for. When they, plus the 13 million who didn't vote, realise that is what they have brought upon themselves, who will they blame? Themselves, for being short sighted and easily manipulated, or those who they will rightly then realise, had been misleading them? And how will that realisation manifest itself? Peacefully, or otherwise?

Anyone and anything.....except themselves. They began blame shifting almost as soon as the referendum was over. 'ReMOaners', EU, even British judiciary (which ironically they'd previously lauded!) became "Enemies of The People" and "Traitors".

 

As the end of transition draws closer they are fast running out of options to blame. Despite their "win" Brexiteers are still angry. I see it on many other forums and it puzzles many. I can only assume it's down to a dawning realisation they haven't really achieved much at all other than totally divide a country and going to be held to account in just the same way as those that fed them what they wanted to hear, are now going to be expected to deliver on what they are now seeing is undeliverable.

 

Spin and exaggerated claims are part of election campaigning, but each party has equal access to the mainstream media so can challenge the inaccurate claims. If, after the result is known, the answer is poor government, we get another bite at the cherry after a max five years. And if we are then dissatisfied, appoint another party to take over.

 

Not so with the 2016 referendum. It will set the UK on a course that will impact the standard of living of everyone in this country for a generation and more. Undoubtedly people voted for what they thought they would get, but did they vote for what they are actually going to get? That is why the lies and distortions matter.

They succeeded in hounding out a vast number of EU citizens who contributed £27 billion a year to the UK economy. Not sure which sector of people is going to make up that deficit.....perhaps the rise of non-EU coming into UK they hadn't bargained for will? Or maybe Brexit voters would agree to pay a higher tax band rate themselves? Hhmm, no i didn't think they would!

 

 

[StuartO]

Brian Kirby - 2020-04-05 6:57 PM

StuartO - 2020-04-05 6:26 PM .... the result simply has to be respected - can’t you see that?

... I have no choice but to accept/respect the outcome.... But respecting the outcome does not impose on me a duty to agree with what I consider a damaging decision. I am captured by a hoard I do not understand; I am being dragged against my will - do not expect me to "go gentle into that good night"! I'm with Dylan, "Old age should burn and rave at close of day"; and I shall "Rage, rage against the dying of the light"!

Then you must face the possibility that those who believe in defending our democracy will take issue with you because of the doubt and disruption which your ranting and raging will cause.  Freedom of speech is not freedom to foster rebellion after a democratic decision has been taken.  I will fight for your freedom of speech as long as you use it responsibly but I will fight you to defend our democracy if you attack it.

[HarveyHeaven]

StuartO - 2020-04-06 10:04 AM

Brian Kirby - 2020-04-05 6:57 PM

StuartO - 2020-04-05 6:26 PM .... the result simply has to be respected - can’t you see that?

... I have no choice but to accept/respect the outcome.... But respecting the outcome does not impose on me a duty to agree with what I consider a damaging decision. I am captured by a hoard I do not understand; I am being dragged against my will - do not expect me to "go gentle into that good night"! I'm with Dylan, "Old age should burn and rave at close of day"; and I shall "Rage, rage against the dying of the light"!

Then you must face the possibility that those who believe in defending our democracy will take issue with you because of the doubt and disruption which your ranting and raging will cause.  Freedom of speech is not freedom to foster rebellion after a democratic decision has been taken.  I will fight for your freedom of speech as long as you use it responsibly but I will fight you to defend our democracy if you attack it.

BRITAIN IS NO LONGER A DEMOCRACY! Democratic discussion has been replaced by lying, cheating and corruption.....honesty and honour are things of the past....will Britain ever recover? Only when people realise that democracy is dead right now...... to revive it the people must expect honesty and honour from the very top and continue with that expectation until they achieve it!! This is what will make Britain Great again.

[Brian Kirby]

StuartO - 2020-04-06 10:04 AM

Brian Kirby - 2020-04-05 6:57 PM

StuartO - 2020-04-05 6:26 PM .... the result simply has to be respected - can’t you see that?

... I have no choice but to accept/respect the outcome.... But respecting the outcome does not impose on me a duty to agree with what I consider a damaging decision. I am captured by a hoard I do not understand; I am being dragged against my will - do not expect me to "go gentle into that good night"! I'm with Dylan, "Old age should burn and rave at close of day"; and I shall "Rage, rage against the dying of the light"!

Then you must face the possibility that those who believe in defending our democracy will take issue with you because of the doubt and disruption which your ranting and raging will cause.  Freedom of speech is not freedom to foster rebellion after a democratic decision has been taken.  I will fight for your freedom of speech as long as you use it responsibly but I will fight you to defend our democracy if you attack it.

Stuart, please! This is hyperbole on steroids.

[jumpstart]

HarveyHeaven - 2020-04-06 10:37 AM

StuartO - 2020-04-06 10:04 AM

Brian Kirby - 2020-04-05 6:57 PM

StuartO - 2020-04-05 6:26 PM .... the result simply has to be respected - can’t you see that?

... I have no choice but to accept/respect the outcome.... But respecting the outcome does not impose on me a duty to agree with what I consider a damaging decision. I am captured by a hoard I do not understand; I am being dragged against my will - do not expect me to "go gentle into that good night"! I'm with Dylan, "Old age should burn and rave at close of day"; and I shall "Rage, rage against the dying of the light"!

Then you must face the possibility that those who believe in defending our democracy will take issue with you because of the doubt and disruption which your ranting and raging will cause.  Freedom of speech is not freedom to foster rebellion after a democratic decision has been taken.  I will fight for your freedom of speech as long as you use it responsibly but I will fight you to defend our democracy if you attack it.

BRITAIN IS NO LONGER A DEMOCRACY! Democratic discussion has been replaced by lying, cheating and corruption.....honesty and honour are things of the past....will Britain ever recover? Only when people realise that democracy is dead right now...... to revive it the people must expect honesty and honour from the very top and continue with that expectation until they achieve it!! This is what will make Britain Great again.

If you want honesty and honour don’t go looking at the EU for guidance.

[StuartO]

Brian Kirby - 2020-04-06 11:06 AM Stuart, please! This is hyperbole on steroids.

I don't think so.  Indulging yourself within Chatterbox on this forum is unlikely to have much public impact but if you were foolish enough to do your ranting (your choice of word) against democracy on a large enough scale to become a threat, you would deserve to be silenced.

[HarveyHeaven]

jumpstart - 2020-04-06 11:43 AM

HarveyHeaven - 2020-04-06 10:37 AM

StuartO - 2020-04-06 10:04 AM

Brian Kirby - 2020-04-05 6:57 PM

StuartO - 2020-04-05 6:26 PM .... the result simply has to be respected - can’t you see that?

... I have no choice but to accept/respect the outcome.... But respecting the outcome does not impose on me a duty to agree with what I consider a damaging decision. I am captured by a hoard I do not understand; I am being dragged against my will - do not expect me to "go gentle into that good night"! I'm with Dylan, "Old age should burn and rave at close of day"; and I shall "Rage, rage against the dying of the light"!

Then you must face the possibility that those who believe in defending our democracy will take issue with you because of the doubt and disruption which your ranting and raging will cause.  Freedom of speech is not freedom to foster rebellion after a democratic decision has been taken.  I will fight for your freedom of speech as long as you use it responsibly but I will fight you to defend our democracy if you attack it.

BRITAIN IS NO LONGER A DEMOCRACY! Democratic discussion has been replaced by lying, cheating and corruption.....honesty and honour are things of the past....will Britain ever recover? Only when people realise that democracy is dead right now...... to revive it the people must expect honesty and honour from the very top and continue with that expectation until they achieve it!! This is what will make Britain Great again.

If you want honesty and honour don’t go looking at the EU for guidance.

The evidence suggests differently!

[Barryd999]

StuartO - 2020-04-06 12:11 PM

Brian Kirby - 2020-04-06 11:06 AM Stuart, please! This is hyperbole on steroids.

I don't think so.  Indulging yourself within Chatterbox on this forum is unlikely to have much public impact but if you were foolish enough to do your ranting (your choice of word) against democracy on a large enough scale to become a threat, you would deserve to be silenced.

Please tell me this is another tongue in cheek Pish take? I assumed your remarks about Brian Raging and Ranting was but now Im not so sure.If ever there has been a voice of reason and calm with well thought out arguments in Chatterbollox it has to be Brian's. I sincerely hope you are not being serious, especially with your last comment.