Diesel heater retrofit

[Steve928]

Hans - 2020-06-05 5:07 PM

 

Diesel heaters have a thermostat which turn off the heater if above their set temperature. Whit a delay time. But they cut out

 

If the thermostat is placed on a cold wall like my VW T6 you have to adjust the setting..

 

Not correct, Hans. We have already established that some diesel heaters do not turn off but instead keep going on minimum output.

[Brian Kirby]

webpax - 2020-05-30 10:39 AM........................That's useful information thanks Max, it supports my view that a diesel backup heater is necessary for long periods camping off grid.

There are two ways to understand "backup". First, as a means of heating when gas is not available; second as a supplement to the gas heater when its heat output is insufficient to compensate with heat losses. In the first instance what you propose should be fine.

 

In the second instance, however, it seems you will have two "thermostats" controlling two separate heating systems, both operating simultaneously to heat the same space, with the real risk that both systems begin cycling in response to the other's heat output, leading to very unstable temperature control. This might well prove an irritant in a UK winter, but in northern Scandinavia, with its punishingly low winter temperatures, the potential is more serious.

 

My understanding is that it is a fundamental engineering principle that if separate systems are to be installed, the same control system should control both, with the second system only being engaged when the first is unable to maintain the set temperature at its maximum output. I somehow doubt that the types of heating system controls usually installed in motorhomes can be adapted to work in this way.

 

I'm inclined to think that the best overall approach would be to cater for the higher heat losses to be expected by installing a more powerful heater in lieu of that originally fitted, rather than trying to balance two competing systems on the fly.

 

Re diesel heating, is there a risk of the diesel waxing up in the draw off pipe for the heater, which must be exposed beneath the van floor for part of is run? Whenever the vehicle is in motion there will be a very searching gale of sub-zero wind under it that it seems to me needs consideration during installation of any diesel heater. What to Scandinavians do to enable motorhome use in their winters?

 

OT, but I suspect you'll also need the engine coolant changed for an "arctic" version.

[Derek Uzzell]

Steve928 - 2020-06-05 6:12 PM

 

Hans - 2020-06-05 5:07 PM

 

Diesel heaters have a thermostat which turn off the heater if above their set temperature. Whit a delay time. But they cut out

 

If the thermostat is placed on a cold wall like my VW T6 you have to adjust the setting..

 

Not correct, Hans. We have already established that some diesel heaters do not turn off but instead keep going on minimum output.

 

I remember an article in a French motorhome magazine (quite a few years ago) that discussed the diesel-fuelled heaters that Chausson then (and now) were installing in their motorcaravans. The shutting down/restarting behaviour was mentioned, not because of the time it took to complete the restarting phase but because restarting placed such a heavy load on the 12V battery. To minimise this it was recommended that the heater’s temperature control should be adjusted so that the heater ran continuously at its lowest setting rather than repeatedly switched itself on and off.

[Steve928]

Derek Uzzell - 2020-06-06 7:41 AM

 

I remember an article in a French motorhome magazine (quite a few years ago) that discussed the diesel-fuelled heaters that Chausson then (and now) were installing in their motorcaravans. The shutting down/restarting behaviour was mentioned, not because of the time it took to complete the restarting phase but because restarting placed such a heavy load on the 12V battery. To minimise this it was recommended that the heater’s temperature control should be adjusted so that the heater ran continuously at its lowest setting rather than repeatedly switched itself on and off.

 

Believe me, after 16 years of trying with the Airtronic D4 on our boat, it really is easier said than done. The only method that I found that came anywhere close to being effective was to listen to the tick of the dosing pump to try and detect when it had reached its lowest frequency. In this state it might either keep going or shut down at any moment - no way of knowing which it was going to do without some more sophisticated measure of temperature than that given by the sensor in the controller. So, jump up from the comfort of your seat, rush to the controller and raise the heat level by one step. Then 5 minutes later, when the Airtronic's adaptive fan speed had increased way above minimum rate and it was providing far too much heat, lower it again. Repeat this yoyo-ing ad infinitum until you give up or you're too slow to react and it switches off anyway.

 

[mtravel]

I speak of Webasto because I know it quite unlike Eberspaecher which however has an equivalent product line.

I add a few notes on equipment recommended on a winter trip.

 

1. Webasto heaters modulate, if temperature is adjusted with a little experience they rarely do on-off-on.

I have already mentioned the possible problems that can arise when using two different heating systems simultaneously.

 

2. A possible option to evaluate instead of the classic Air Top is the installation of the Thermo Top which can be used to preheat the engine as well as the habitation.

 

3. In addition to motorhomes, diesel heaters are also used on cars (for example several Mercedes) and commercial vans.

Not to mention trucks where they are one of the most common heaters. Obviously also in Scandinavia.

In the Nordic countries they sell "artic diesel", I really believe there are no problems with wax formation.

The same applies to LPG which is practically pure propane and not a mixture of propane and butane.

 

4. On a trip like this, completely feasible but still demanding, it is strongly advisable to have a device such as one of the Efoy's battery charger (not cheap).

Alternative is to have a small generator (excellent are Honda i10 or i20).

 

5. Absolutely good quality winter tires and ready for studding.

See https://www.transportstyrelsen.se/en/road/Vehicles/winter-tyres

Bring studs and an eletrics screwdriver (plus batteries) with you.

Very likely you will need to install studs somewhere in Sweden.

 

Many Scandinavian travel reports in winter are available on the net.

I know some of them but in Italian.

If this language is not a problem, they are available on https://www.camperonline.it/diari/index.asp

 

A "keyboard friend" of mine has been in Norway in the winter.

She lived for a few years in England and language is not a problem.

But I should ask her if she's available to answer and help.

If you are interested send me a private message and I will try to ask.

 

Max

[webpax]

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-05 7:45 PM

 

webpax - 2020-05-30 10:39 AM........................That's useful information thanks Max, it supports my view that a diesel backup heater is necessary for long periods camping off grid.

There are two ways to understand "backup". First, as a means of heating when gas is not available; second as a supplement to the gas heater when its heat output is insufficient to compensate with heat losses. In the first instance what you propose should be fine.

 

In the second instance, however, it seems you will have two "thermostats" controlling two separate heating systems, both operating simultaneously to heat the same space, with the real risk that both systems begin cycling in response to the other's heat output, leading to very unstable temperature control. This might well prove an irritant in a UK winter, but in northern Scandinavia, with its punishingly low winter temperatures, the potential is more serious.

 

My understanding is that it is a fundamental engineering principle that if separate systems are to be installed, the same control system should control both, with the second system only being engaged when the first is unable to maintain the set temperature at its maximum output. I somehow doubt that the types of heating system controls usually installed in motorhomes can be adapted to work in this way.

 

I'm inclined to think that the best overall approach would be to cater for the higher heat losses to be expected by installing a more powerful heater in lieu of that originally fitted, rather than trying to balance two competing systems on the fly.

 

Re diesel heating, is there a risk of the diesel waxing up in the draw off pipe for the heater, which must be exposed beneath the van floor for part of is run? Whenever the vehicle is in motion there will be a very searching gale of sub-zero wind under it that it seems to me needs consideration during installation of any diesel heater. What to Scandinavians do to enable motorhome use in their winters?

 

OT, but I suspect you'll also need the engine coolant changed for an "arctic" version.

 

I would never run both systems at the same time. Like Steve928 I am hoping that the diesel heater will suffice as the main source of heating with the Truma being used only for hot water. That way my 2x11kg LPG tanks will last much longer in an off-grid camping situation.

[webpax]

mtravel - 2020-05-30 11:21 AM

 

Regarding the on/off problem of the Eberspaecher, I am not an expert on this brand but I have had a Webasto Dual Top (combined heater/boiler) for thirteen years.

It modulates, that is, once it reaches the set temperature it does not turn off and then on again but continues to heat with less power.

Being less energy consuming.

I believe the Air Top and Air Top Evo models also do it, look at https://www.webasto.com/fileadmin/webasto_files/documents/international/rv/data-sheet/DS_RV_Air_Top_2012_ENG.pdf

 

I don't know if Eber has the same behaviour.

 

Max

 

The newest Eber airtronic S2 has the following feature listed which may indicate they have fixed the on/off issue?

 

Stepless heating performance control.

This allows for a more dynamic heat output, that automatically modulates to maintain required temperature. The new “Stepless output control” has also improved the operating sound of the Airtronic S2

[webpax]

mtravel - 2020-06-06 9:34 AM

 

I speak of Webasto because I know it quite unlike Eberspaecher which however has an equivalent product line.

I add a few notes on equipment recommended on a winter trip.

 

1. Webasto heaters modulate, if temperature is adjusted with a little experience they rarely do on-off-on.

I have already mentioned the possible problems that can arise when using two different heating systems simultaneously.

 

2. A possible option to evaluate instead of the classic Air Top is the installation of the Thermo Top which can be used to preheat the engine as well as the habitation.

 

3. In addition to motorhomes, diesel heaters are also used on cars (for example several Mercedes) and commercial vans.

Not to mention trucks where they are one of the most common heaters. Obviously also in Scandinavia.

In the Nordic countries they sell "artic diesel", I really believe there are no problems with wax formation.

The same applies to LPG which is practically pure propane and not a mixture of propane and butane.

 

4. On a trip like this, completely feasible but still demanding, it is strongly advisable to have a device such as one of the Efoy's battery charger (not cheap).

Alternative is to have a small generator (excellent are Honda i10 or i20).

 

5. Absolutely good quality winter tires and ready for studding.

See https://www.transportstyrelsen.se/en/road/Vehicles/winter-tyres

Bring studs and an eletrics screwdriver (plus batteries) with you.

Very likely you will need to install studs somewhere in Sweden.

 

Many Scandinavian travel reports in winter are available on the net.

I know some of them but in Italian.

If this language is not a problem, they are available on https://www.camperonline.it/diari/index.asp

 

A "keyboard friend" of mine has been in Norway in the winter.

She lived for a few years in England and language is not a problem.

But I should ask her if she's available to answer and help.

If you are interested send me a private message and I will try to ask.

 

Max

 

Thanks for the info Max.

Re 1 it sounds like the lastest Eberspachers now modulate as per my previous post. Re 2 I was interested in the Thermo Top but apparently it cannot be integrated into the latest Mercedes Sprinter engine/cab.

[Brian Kirby]

webpax - 2020-06-06 3:45 PM…………………….

I would never run both systems at the same time. Like Steve928 I am hoping that the diesel heater will suffice as the main source of heating with the Truma being used only for hot water. That way my 2x11kg LPG tanks will last much longer in an off-grid camping situation.

Then, the problem as I see it, is that the Webasto and Eberspacher heaters of which I have been able to find details have maximum heat outputs that are less than that of your Combi 6 heater, whereas I strongly suspect you will need a higher heating capacity than that. Hymer's "Arctic" pack includes enhanced insulation in certain areas, so as to reduce the rate of heat loss, but also a "wet" heating system in lieu of warm air heating. I couldn't find the make or output details of this, but would expect it to have a higher kW output than the standard Truma offering.

 

Truma heaters running on LPG or diesel peak at 6kW output, and are generally aimed at temperate climatic zones. You will be going well north of that zone, and I would guess that, to be safe, and in the absence of the enhanced insulation Hymer claim for the "Arctic" pack, you are probably looking for an extra 2kW heat output, taking the total available to the region of 8kW. At that level of output, and with only 2 cylinders (BTW, have you tried 13kg cylinders to see if they will fit - our Exsis I would take 2 x 13kg, UK or French, in its gas locker?) to supply gas, diesel is clearly the best option.

 

Webasto have a Diesel fuelled wet heating system called Thermo Pro 90, with a maximum output of 9.1 kW, which looks like the sort of installation I think Hymer probably include with their "Arctic" pack. With a full diesel tank you'd then have a reliable fuel supply for so long as fuel remains. But, if the weather turns on you, you'll gobble up whatever fuel very quickly.

 

You have spoken of winter touring, so you'd need to be able to ride thorough relatively (by average UK winter standards) long periods of severe weather at very low temperatures. I haven't experienced winter in the Nordic countries, but did have some time in the Falklands some years back, in June, which is their winter, and at that latitude the weather could change on a sixpence from cold but sunny, to complete white-out (by which I mean howling gale and visibility under 20 yards) within an hour, resulting in a substantial snow dump from which a certain amount of digging out was necessary.

 

The installation of a suitably powerful diesel powered wet heating system would, IMO, be the better solution overall and, although undoubtedly expensive, would eliminate the need to tee into existing, or install additional, hot air ducts. The added advantage would be that systems of that type can be run while driving, as the standard cab heater would be hopelessly inadequate to counter the heat losses while driving. You will however need to somehow get warmth to both fresh water and waste water tanks (as the existing Truma system does), to prevent them freezing.

 

Final thought, have you tried a web search for Swedish, Norwegian, or Finnish camping/motorhome websites? They may be able to offer guidance on what to cater for, and how. The Scandinavians are usually pretty good with English, and Google Translate offers a fair facility if difficulties arise (don't know about Finnish, though! :-)). Might be useful?

[mtravel]

In addition to the 2KW models, both Eberspaecher and Webasto have more powerful ones in the catalog.

 

Webasto:

Air Top Evo 40 3.5KW

Air Top Evo 55 5.0KW

Eberspaecher:

Airtronic M2 D4L 4.0KW

 

As for the motor heater, you say that "Thermo Top but apparently it cannot be integrated into the latest Mercedes Sprinter engine/cab".

 

I don't know if it is standard or optional but certainly the Hymer MLT series on Mercedes Sprinter engine (year 2016) has an on-cabin Eberspaecher Hydronic heat exchanger (only motor heating, hab to be integrated).

 

As far as fuel consumption is concerned, we speak at the maximum power of about one Lt/h.

If you really want to protect yourself, just have a spare tank of about ten liters.

 

Max

[Basher Baz]

Hi Webpax

 

If it’s any help to you we run a self-converted 2012 VW Crafter MWB 6 metre panel van which I fitted with an Eberspacher Airtronic D2 diesel space heater. The build of these are almost identical to the Mercedes Sprinter with the exception of the engine and front bodywork.

We toured Norway and Sweden this February 2020 and although it wasn’t the coldest winter (around -6 to -12°C) we found this heating to be sufficient alone so 5 Kw seems more than adequate for another metre and a half of a home such as yours.

There are a couple of points, some already mentioned that obviously are a factor such as:

1. The thermal efficiency of your insulation.(Ours is a mixture of Thinsulate wadding and reflective foam so very high thermal rating)

2. Where your heating ducting pipe are routed and the lengths of them (where heat can be lost). We have installed three 60mm outlet pipes and vents, one of which is fitted with a variable flap into the bathroom and all of which are sleeved with Thermoduct liners twice over! (60mm with 100mm over that). This has the effect of bringing the heat very quickly into all areas rather than being lost through the walls of the ducting and heating up the under bed and storage areas. This saves us a large amount of warm up time and fuel. (The storage area used to get very hot prior to us fitting the sleeving, and as this is where the mains inverter is also installed it also used to kick the fans in nearly all the time when in use. At around £15 a metre this is an easy one time install that you will immediately start to re-coup in fuel costs.

3. A good thermal external screen and side window cover although a little bulky, is far better at reducing heat transfer than the internal ones both in summer and winter keeping condensation on the inside of the windscreen to almost nil.

 

When on staying on sites/hook up we used a 1.5Kw thermostatically oil filled radiator which we set at power level 2 (around 1Kw) as we find the Eberspacher blown air makes your eyes quite dry and sore over long periods and the dosing pump clunking is quite noticeable (despite being rubber mounted) when in bed as is mounted under the van quite close to our heads although Eberspacher advised me the new model does not have this noise problem.

 

Other points regarding touring this area in winter is that we run winter M& S tyres all year round (as we find no difference in fuel economy or noise levels) and has been useful on muddy ground even in the British summer. Also a number of routes in Norway where only open to vehicles fitted with winter tyres. These weren’t marked on our maps or sat nav until you saw the signs a few kms before, and other route alternatives are a long way round. I can imagine if you attempted them without and got stuck you would not be very popular and may well cost you. We did get stuck on snow once or twice off road but found that the Milenco grip tracks got us out of trouble without any outside help so would recommend at least one pair should be packed.

 

Regarding Eberspacher fuel lines freezing up, when installing the tank feed pipe I did line the pipe with cable trunking purely as I felt that being such a narrow pipe (around 2mm bore 4mm externally) it may be prone to chafing but this obviously did give it additional protection from the frost and slush thrown up. Sufficient to say it was cold enough for the adblue tank heater to kick in and the EML tell me I had an intermittent fault with it so had to drop this tank and replace it when I got back!

 

I don’t often get involved in forums but hope this helps. Have a great trip

 

 

[webpax]

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-06 6:13 PM

 

webpax - 2020-06-06 3:45 PM…………………….

I would never run both systems at the same time. Like Steve928 I am hoping that the diesel heater will suffice as the main source of heating with the Truma being used only for hot water. That way my 2x11kg LPG tanks will last much longer in an off-grid camping situation.

Then, the problem as I see it, is that the Webasto and Eberspacher heaters of which I have been able to find details have maximum heat outputs that are less than that of your Combi 6 heater, whereas I strongly suspect you will need a higher heating capacity than that. Hymer's "Arctic" pack includes enhanced insulation in certain areas, so as to reduce the rate of heat loss, but also a "wet" heating system in lieu of warm air heating. I couldn't find the make or output details of this, but would expect it to have a higher kW output than the standard Truma offering.

 

Truma heaters running on LPG or diesel peak at 6kW output, and are generally aimed at temperate climatic zones. You will be going well north of that zone, and I would guess that, to be safe, and in the absence of the enhanced insulation Hymer claim for the "Arctic" pack, you are probably looking for an extra 2kW heat output, taking the total available to the region of 8kW. At that level of output, and with only 2 cylinders (BTW, have you tried 13kg cylinders to see if they will fit - our Exsis I would take 2 x 13kg, UK or French, in its gas locker?) to supply gas, diesel is clearly the best option.

 

Webasto have a Diesel fuelled wet heating system called Thermo Pro 90, with a maximum output of 9.1 kW, which looks like the sort of installation I think Hymer probably include with their "Arctic" pack. With a full diesel tank you'd then have a reliable fuel supply for so long as fuel remains. But, if the weather turns on you, you'll gobble up whatever fuel very quickly.

 

You have spoken of winter touring, so you'd need to be able to ride thorough relatively (by average UK winter standards) long periods of severe weather at very low temperatures. I haven't experienced winter in the Nordic countries, but did have some time in the Falklands some years back, in June, which is their winter, and at that latitude the weather could change on a sixpence from cold but sunny, to complete white-out (by which I mean howling gale and visibility under 20 yards) within an hour, resulting in a substantial snow dump from which a certain amount of digging out was necessary.

 

The installation of a suitably powerful diesel powered wet heating system would, IMO, be the better solution overall and, although undoubtedly expensive, would eliminate the need to tee into existing, or install additional, hot air ducts. The added advantage would be that systems of that type can be run while driving, as the standard cab heater would be hopelessly inadequate to counter the heat losses while driving. You will however need to somehow get warmth to both fresh water and waste water tanks (as the existing Truma system does), to prevent them freezing.

 

Final thought, have you tried a web search for Swedish, Norwegian, or Finnish camping/motorhome websites? They may be able to offer guidance on what to cater for, and how. The Scandinavians are usually pretty good with English, and Google Translate offers a fair facility if difficulties arise (don't know about Finnish, though! :-)). Might be useful?

Thanks Brian - that's useful info. Unfortunately regarding the LPG, 2x11kg was a squeeze and only just fit, I don't know whether the 13kg ones are just taller or wider? There is a bit of space for a taller bottle but I couldn't fit anything with a greater circumference.

[webpax]

mtravel - 2020-06-07 9:36 AM

 

In addition to the 2KW models, both Eberspaecher and Webasto have more powerful ones in the catalog.

 

Webasto:

Air Top Evo 40 3.5KW

Air Top Evo 55 5.0KW

Eberspaecher:

Airtronic M2 D4L 4.0KW

 

As for the motor heater, you say that "Thermo Top but apparently it cannot be integrated into the latest Mercedes Sprinter engine/cab".

 

I don't know if it is standard or optional but certainly the Hymer MLT series on Mercedes Sprinter engine (year 2016) has an on-cabin Eberspaecher Hydronic heat exchanger (only motor heating, hab to be integrated).

 

As far as fuel consumption is concerned, we speak at the maximum power of about one Lt/h.

If you really want to protect yourself, just have a spare tank of about ten liters.

 

Max

 

Thanks mtravel the Eberspacher is 2.2Kw and having discussed with the Eberspacher dealer this is the maximum size I can fit in the space I have available in the van that is in a suitable location. Regarding the Hydronic heat exchanger this is an option on Mercedes Hymer vans but unfortunately not one mine was specified with. Whether it might be available as a retro fit I don't know.

[webpax]

Basher Baz - 2020-06-07 12:27 PM

 

Hi Webpax

 

If it’s any help to you we run a self-converted 2012 VW Crafter MWB 6 metre panel van which I fitted with an Eberspacher Airtronic D2 diesel space heater. The build of these are almost identical to the Mercedes Sprinter with the exception of the engine and front bodywork.

We toured Norway and Sweden this February 2020 and although it wasn’t the coldest winter (around -6 to -12°C) we found this heating to be sufficient alone so 5 Kw seems more than adequate for another metre and a half of a home such as yours.

There are a couple of points, some already mentioned that obviously are a factor such as:

1. The thermal efficiency of your insulation.(Ours is a mixture of Thinsulate wadding and reflective foam so very high thermal rating)

2. Where your heating ducting pipe are routed and the lengths of them (where heat can be lost). We have installed three 60mm outlet pipes and vents, one of which is fitted with a variable flap into the bathroom and all of which are sleeved with Thermoduct liners twice over! (60mm with 100mm over that). This has the effect of bringing the heat very quickly into all areas rather than being lost through the walls of the ducting and heating up the under bed and storage areas. This saves us a large amount of warm up time and fuel. (The storage area used to get very hot prior to us fitting the sleeving, and as this is where the mains inverter is also installed it also used to kick the fans in nearly all the time when in use. At around £15 a metre this is an easy one time install that you will immediately start to re-coup in fuel costs.

3. A good thermal external screen and side window cover although a little bulky, is far better at reducing heat transfer than the internal ones both in summer and winter keeping condensation on the inside of the windscreen to almost nil.

 

When on staying on sites/hook up we used a 1.5Kw thermostatically oil filled radiator which we set at power level 2 (around 1Kw) as we find the Eberspacher blown air makes your eyes quite dry and sore over long periods and the dosing pump clunking is quite noticeable (despite being rubber mounted) when in bed as is mounted under the van quite close to our heads although Eberspacher advised me the new model does not have this noise problem.

 

Other points regarding touring this area in winter is that we run winter M& S tyres all year round (as we find no difference in fuel economy or noise levels) and has been useful on muddy ground even in the British summer. Also a number of routes in Norway where only open to vehicles fitted with winter tyres. These weren’t marked on our maps or sat nav until you saw the signs a few kms before, and other route alternatives are a long way round. I can imagine if you attempted them without and got stuck you would not be very popular and may well cost you. We did get stuck on snow once or twice off road but found that the Milenco grip tracks got us out of trouble without any outside help so would recommend at least one pair should be packed.

 

Regarding Eberspacher fuel lines freezing up, when installing the tank feed pipe I did line the pipe with cable trunking purely as I felt that being such a narrow pipe (around 2mm bore 4mm externally) it may be prone to chafing but this obviously did give it additional protection from the frost and slush thrown up. Sufficient to say it was cold enough for the adblue tank heater to kick in and the EML tell me I had an intermittent fault with it so had to drop this tank and replace it when I got back!

 

I don’t often get involved in forums but hope this helps. Have a great trip

 

 

Thanks Basher Baz I really appreciate you taking the time to post such an informative and detailed post. Regarding the KWs of heat required we're now going for the Airtronic S2/D2 which is 2.2kw as this is the only one that will fit in the space available. Also the dealer advised it's much better to be running the 2.2 at full tilt than the 4/5kw at 50% which can result in the unit choking up. This newer model is supposed to be quieter.

 

The Hymer PUAL 2.0 insulation is claimed by Hymer to be equivalent to a 68cm brick wall. I've also come across guidance that for a house you typically need 1kw of heating per 10m2 of room. My van has around 15m2 of internal space so I am satisfied that 2.2kw will suffice in most circumstances. We've found with the Truma heater it doesn't need to be on full blast even when camping in the van in the Alps in February. Indeed it soon gets the van too warm and has to be turned off for a period.

 

The point about the external thermal screen is a good one. We've resisted buying one so far as we've found the large A class windscreen is great for looking out of but also for gaining heat from the sun during the day. I feel we would benefit though from having one to put on overnight at least.

 

I need to check my tyres I believe they are called four season tyres but I will investigate further.

 

We also have a small oil filled radiator which we will use on sites with hookup.

 

Thanks again.

[mtravel]

webpax - 2020-06-07 1:31 PM

 

The point about the external thermal screen is a good one. We've resisted buying one so far as we've found the large A class windscreen is great for looking out of but also for gaining heat from the sun during the day. I feel we would benefit though from having one to put on overnight at least.

 

I need to check my tyres I believe they are called four season tyres but I will investigate further.

 

We also have a small oil filled radiator which we will use on sites with hookup.

 

Thanks again.

 

Sun during the day ? During Lofoten winter ? *-)

Don't forget to visit Senja and Vesteralen.

 

Tyres: I think you will need "snowflake" or "three-peaks" marks. Just M+S like Agilis Camper of Michelin not enough.

Radiator: get one with two selectable power levels.

 

Max

[webpax]

mtravel - 2020-06-07 2:06 PM

 

Sun during the day ? During Lofoten winter ? *-)

Don't forget to visit Senja and Vesteralen.

 

Tyres: I think you will need "snowflake" or "three-peaks" marks. Just M+S like Agilis Camper of Michelin not enough.

Radiator: get one with two selectable power levels.

 

Max

 

Ok maybe no sun!

 

They are Van Contact Camper tyres. They are described as all-season tyres with the following attributes:

 

"High braking performance on wet, muddy and snowy roads.The high number of sipes maximises the edge length in order to interlock with wet roads and thus improves wet braking performance. Additionally, the V-shaped drainage and wide lateral grooves successfully work against aquaplaning.

Especially in wintry conditions, an increased sipe edge length provides outstanding braking performance. Combined with the step in shoulder groove, the VanContact™ Camper ensures excellent grip and handling on snowy roads."

 

I also have snow chains if they are used in Norway?

 

[BruceM]

I suggest you check the tyre walls. Unless they have the ‘three peaks snowflake’ symbol as mentioned above I don’t think that they would meet the regulatory requirement.

[webpax]

Thanks for the picture, unfortunately it seems that my tyres do not comply

 

[Basher Baz]

I'm going to break a rule now and post twice in the same day as with this lock down i'm running out of jobs I can do and we cant really go away.

 

Bruce is correct, only the snowflake symbol is now recognized.

 

You can run chains in Scandinavia but its a bit of a faff to keep taking them on and off when the snow is patchy.

The locals run studded tyres as they are in snowy conditions for much longer periods but you'd probably have worn the studs out by the time you've driven across Germany in non-snowy conditions just to get there.

 

Winter tyres and grip tracks will be ample if sticking to normal roads. We were only running off road because of following the Swedish Rally stages where parking is a little bit more challenging.

 

Not sure what size tyres yours are and if FWD or RWD, but we run Vredestein Comtrac Winter tyres on the drive axle (rear) and Kleber Transalp 2's on the steered axle. Both are directional tyres so should only be fitted on one side of the vehicle so my spare is asymmetric so it can be fitted on either side should I get a puncture.

 

I have used Continentals Winter Contacts in the past with no problems. All have good reviews.

[webpax]

Basher Baz - 2020-06-07 6:45 PM

 

I'm going to break a rule now and post twice in the same day as with this lock down i'm running out of jobs I can do and we cant really go away.

 

Bruce is correct, only the snowflake symbol is now recognized.

 

You can run chains in Scandinavia but its a bit of a faff to keep taking them on and off when the snow is patchy.

The locals run studded tyres as they are in snowy conditions for much longer periods but you'd probably have worn the studs out by the time you've driven across Germany in non-snowy conditions just to get there.

 

Winter tyres and grip tracks will be ample if sticking to normal roads. We were only running off road because of following the Swedish Rally stages where parking is a little bit more challenging.

 

Not sure what size tyres yours are and if FWD or RWD, but we run Vredestein Comtrac Winter tyres on the drive axle (rear) and Kleber Transalp 2's on the steered axle. Both are directional tyres so should only be fitted on one side of the vehicle so my spare is asymmetric so it can be fitted on either side should I get a puncture.

 

I have used Continentals Winter Contacts in the past with no problems. All have good reviews.

 

Thanks Basher Baz, they're FWD 16inch 225/75, I've heard good things about the Vredestein Comtracs not heard of the Kleber but will take a look. My tyres do have a snowflake symbol but not the mountain behind.

[Derek Uzzell]

It might be useful to know which manufacturer made your Hymer’s tyres and the ‘pattern-name’ on the tyres’ side-wall. (eg. Michelin and “Agilis Camping”)

 

Continental’s guidance on winter tyres is here

 

https://www.continental-tyres.co.uk/car/all-about-tyres/buying-tyres/buying-winter-tyres

 

My understanding was that the Three-Peak Mountain Snowflake (3PMSF) symbol (as shown in BruceM’s photo above) is the only approved marking to indicate a tyre with ‘winter’ capability - so I’m not sure what relevance the snowflake has on your Hymer’s tyres.

 

On some Hymer models ‘all season’ tyres are fitted as standard as original equipment. Such tyres have tended to not have a directional or asymmetrical tread pattern, thus allowing them to be fitted either way round on a road-wheel and for the road-wheel to be fitted on either side of a vehicle. Nowadays, ‘all season’ tyres usually carry the 3PMSF symbol and an example is Continental’s "Vanco FourSeason 2”.

 

https://www.continental-tyres.co.uk/car/tyres/vanco-fourseason-2

 

(There is the possibility that your tyres do carry the 3PMSF symbol, but the tyres have been mounted so that the side-wall carrying the 3PMSF symbol is on the inside of the wheel.)

[webpax]

Derek Uzzell - 2020-06-08 8:19 AM

 

It might be useful to know which manufacturer made your Hymer’s tyres and the ‘pattern-name’ on the tyres’ side-wall. (eg. Michelin and “Agilis Camping”)

 

Continental’s guidance on winter tyres is here

 

https://www.continental-tyres.co.uk/car/all-about-tyres/buying-tyres/buying-winter-tyres

 

My understanding was that the Three-Peak Mountain Snowflake (3PMS) symbol (as shown in BruceM’s photo above) is the only approved marking to indicate a tyre with ‘winter’ capability - so I’m not sure what relevance the snowflake has on your Hymer’s tyres.

 

On some Hymer models ‘all season’ tyres are fitted as standard as original equipment. Such tyres have tended to not have a directional or asymmetrical tread pattern, thus allowing them to be fitted either way round on a road-wheel and for the road-wheel to be fitted on either side of a vehicle. Nowadays, ‘all season’ tyres usually carry the 3PMS symbol and an example is Continental’s "Vanco FourSeason 2”.

 

https://www.continental-tyres.co.uk/car/tyres/vanco-fourseason-2

 

(There is the possibility that your tyres do carry the 3PMS symbol, but the tyres have been mounted so that the side-wall carrying the 3PMS symbol is on the inside of the wheel.)

 

Thanks for the link to the guidance. It looks like my tyres (Vancontact Campers) are all season and the snowflake is just an indication of that but does not appear to officially designate them as winter tyres.

https://www.continental-tires.com/car/tires/vancontact-camper

 

[BruceM]

Your posted link showing the tyres indicates that they should carry the 3PMSF (Three peaks with snowflake) symbol. This symbol came into force in November 2012. Might your tyres pre-date this? I suggest you check your tyre age on the tyre wall even if they were only fitted 6 years ago as they may have been older stock. I seem to recall that there was an exception for older pre-3PMSF symbol winter tyres.

[mtravel]

If you are interested you can download this report: https://www.camperonline.it/diari/userfiles/4299_Scandinavia%20Inverno%20-%20Anna.pdf

It is written in Italian but easily translatable with Google Translate.

 

However on page 4 there are photographs of typical Norwegian situations.

There is not only snow but often you will find black ice.

I don't see how simple winter tyres (without studs) can be enough.

 

On page 15 photographs of a Vegbom (or vejbom) system signal and related departure times.

The route ahead will be covered in a convoy whose departure must be awaited.

I do not exclude that your tyres equipment will be checked and if it is not adequate, they will sent you back.

Usually the convoy has one vehicle at the head and one at the rear.

Make sure that the latter is behind you because if you are late (they go quite fast) you run the risk that the barrier on the arrival will be lowered before you arrive.

 

Among the stretches of road of this type there is certainly the one that leads to the North Cape but I have seen several, especially in Finnmark.

 

Max

[mtravel]

BruceM - 2020-06-08 11:03 AM

 

Your posted link showing the tyres indicates that they should carry the 3PMSF (Three peaks with snowflake) symbol. This symbol came into force in November 2012. Might your tyres pre-date this? I suggest you check your tyre age on the tyre wall even if they were only fitted 6 years ago as they may have been older stock. I seem to recall that there was an exception for older pre-3PMSF symbol winter tyres.

 

This problem for sure in Germany.

3PMSF tyres are mandatory since a while and only those built before 2018 are exempt (they just need the M + S symbol).

This exemption will expire in 2024.

 

Max