Barryd999 Posted June 16, 2020 Author Share Posted June 16, 2020 StuartO - 2020-06-16 7:37 AM Populism is covered very well in Wikipedia so I suggest you read that - and take your time because its not easy to get your head around. Populism is a political approach to gathering support rather than a particular ideology, so it has been employed by people at both extremes of the left/right political spectrum. It's been around in one form or another for over a century, so it's not been invented recently. Essentially it is an "us and them" way of charactarising problems; "we the people" are right and "them" (the priviledged elite, the big corporations - or alternatively the soppy liberals currently in power) are the corrupt and devious abusers of the people - so that if the people listen to me, their saviour, they will be saved and we will triumph. Charismatic leaders can make effective use of populism. Arguably it targets the 50% of the people who are more gullible than the rest rather than trying to convince the 50% who are cleverer. Arguably it is the enemy of true democracy because it can lead to the election of dangerous people like Donald Trump and Arthur Scargill. You left out Boris Johnson and President Cummings. So people who vote for Populist leaders are thick as mince then? (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted June 16, 2020 Author Share Posted June 16, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 6:29 AM Barryd999 - 2020-06-15 10:33 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-15 6:58 PM Barryd999 - 2020-06-15 6:17 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-15 5:54 PM Nicepix - 2020-06-14 8:24 PM Bulletguy - 2020-06-14 5:17 PM Ah but the DM becomes a "lefty loser" paper run by "Remoaner" Geordie Grieg when it publishes articles that don't dance to the Brexiteers narrative. ;-) Interestingly UK has been knocked down into third place on the world stats for Covid-19 deaths as Brazil hit over 41,000 to become the second worst with US well out in the lead. More than a coincidence all three countries led by populism. What is the difference between populism and democracy? *-) I think the above question is based on a false premise. Populism is a form of democracy. I think the question is really, "what is the difference between representative democracy and populism". Representative democracy is what we presently have, where candidates to be MPs are elected by us on the basis that they will have access to information that most of us will not see, and will decide together whether government (the "executive") proposals should be implemented. So we pay them to do that work for us, and trust them to do so to the best of their judgement and ability. Populism, on the other hand, seems more akin to government by permanent referendum, where the MPs become delegates of their constituents, bound to do as instructed by them. The executive merely makes proposals, the proposals are taken by the MPs back to their constituents, who vote on them, and then return the results to parliament where the MPs will vote collectively as individually instructed, with the result becoming an instruction to the executive to proceed accordingly. So, the decision is moved closer to the people. The problems I see with populism are that it caters to the lowest common denominator, and not to the highest common factor. It also makes holding a settled policy almost impossible as moods and events swirl and shift within society. And finally it also seems to me overly prone to being hijacked by charismatic manipulators with dubious agendas. That will be President Cummings then that nobody voted for but is somehow running the country and above the law. Im confused again ... It really grinds you that Mr Cummings broke lockdown rules , you have mentioned it and complained about it quite a lot , yet you found if "funny" when others broke lockdown rules to vandalise and throw history in the sea ... let me in to your logic We weren't under lock down when they decided to chuck the statue in the drink. We were in the middle of the first wave and lock down when Cummings who is the most powerful man in the country decided to break his own rules and go for a jolly as well as breaking many other rules and then trying to cover it all up. I said from the off the protests should not have been allowed to go ahead and were a bad idea but I was pleased to see that statue go and yes it was funny. I liked the Clanging noise and splash. Bit Monty Python. Should have maybe left it at that though. That was enough of a statement really. Quick recap ... Mr Cummings is now "the most powerful man in the country" and you found vandalism and thuggery "funny" ... That just about sums up the mess of the last few weeks The mess has been going on a bit longer than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 8:57 AM Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 6:29 AM Barryd999 - 2020-06-15 10:33 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-15 6:58 PM Barryd999 - 2020-06-15 6:17 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-15 5:54 PM Nicepix - 2020-06-14 8:24 PM Bulletguy - 2020-06-14 5:17 PM Ah but the DM becomes a "lefty loser" paper run by "Remoaner" Geordie Grieg when it publishes articles that don't dance to the Brexiteers narrative. ;-) Interestingly UK has been knocked down into third place on the world stats for Covid-19 deaths as Brazil hit over 41,000 to become the second worst with US well out in the lead. More than a coincidence all three countries led by populism. What is the difference between populism and democracy? *-) I think the above question is based on a false premise. Populism is a form of democracy. I think the question is really, "what is the difference between representative democracy and populism". Representative democracy is what we presently have, where candidates to be MPs are elected by us on the basis that they will have access to information that most of us will not see, and will decide together whether government (the "executive") proposals should be implemented. So we pay them to do that work for us, and trust them to do so to the best of their judgement and ability. Populism, on the other hand, seems more akin to government by permanent referendum, where the MPs become delegates of their constituents, bound to do as instructed by them. The executive merely makes proposals, the proposals are taken by the MPs back to their constituents, who vote on them, and then return the results to parliament where the MPs will vote collectively as individually instructed, with the result becoming an instruction to the executive to proceed accordingly. So, the decision is moved closer to the people. The problems I see with populism are that it caters to the lowest common denominator, and not to the highest common factor. It also makes holding a settled policy almost impossible as moods and events swirl and shift within society. And finally it also seems to me overly prone to being hijacked by charismatic manipulators with dubious agendas. That will be President Cummings then that nobody voted for but is somehow running the country and above the law. Im confused again ... It really grinds you that Mr Cummings broke lockdown rules , you have mentioned it and complained about it quite a lot , yet you found if "funny" when others broke lockdown rules to vandalise and throw history in the sea ... let me in to your logic We weren't under lock down when they decided to chuck the statue in the drink. We were in the middle of the first wave and lock down when Cummings who is the most powerful man in the country decided to break his own rules and go for a jolly as well as breaking many other rules and then trying to cover it all up. I said from the off the protests should not have been allowed to go ahead and were a bad idea but I was pleased to see that statue go and yes it was funny. I liked the Clanging noise and splash. Bit Monty Python. Should have maybe left it at that though. That was enough of a statement really. Quick recap ... Mr Cummings is now "the most powerful man in the country" and you found vandalism and thuggery "funny" ... That just about sums up the mess of the last few weeks The mess has been going on a bit longer than that. Please don't say you and others have held those views for more than a few weeks ... Well ye I suppose now ya mention it , prolly just about 4 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted June 16, 2020 Author Share Posted June 16, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 9:07 AM Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 8:57 AM Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 6:29 AM Barryd999 - 2020-06-15 10:33 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-15 6:58 PM Barryd999 - 2020-06-15 6:17 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-15 5:54 PM Nicepix - 2020-06-14 8:24 PM Bulletguy - 2020-06-14 5:17 PM Ah but the DM becomes a "lefty loser" paper run by "Remoaner" Geordie Grieg when it publishes articles that don't dance to the Brexiteers narrative. ;-) Interestingly UK has been knocked down into third place on the world stats for Covid-19 deaths as Brazil hit over 41,000 to become the second worst with US well out in the lead. More than a coincidence all three countries led by populism. What is the difference between populism and democracy? *-) I think the above question is based on a false premise. Populism is a form of democracy. I think the question is really, "what is the difference between representative democracy and populism". Representative democracy is what we presently have, where candidates to be MPs are elected by us on the basis that they will have access to information that most of us will not see, and will decide together whether government (the "executive") proposals should be implemented. So we pay them to do that work for us, and trust them to do so to the best of their judgement and ability. Populism, on the other hand, seems more akin to government by permanent referendum, where the MPs become delegates of their constituents, bound to do as instructed by them. The executive merely makes proposals, the proposals are taken by the MPs back to their constituents, who vote on them, and then return the results to parliament where the MPs will vote collectively as individually instructed, with the result becoming an instruction to the executive to proceed accordingly. So, the decision is moved closer to the people. The problems I see with populism are that it caters to the lowest common denominator, and not to the highest common factor. It also makes holding a settled policy almost impossible as moods and events swirl and shift within society. And finally it also seems to me overly prone to being hijacked by charismatic manipulators with dubious agendas. That will be President Cummings then that nobody voted for but is somehow running the country and above the law. Im confused again ... It really grinds you that Mr Cummings broke lockdown rules , you have mentioned it and complained about it quite a lot , yet you found if "funny" when others broke lockdown rules to vandalise and throw history in the sea ... let me in to your logic We weren't under lock down when they decided to chuck the statue in the drink. We were in the middle of the first wave and lock down when Cummings who is the most powerful man in the country decided to break his own rules and go for a jolly as well as breaking many other rules and then trying to cover it all up. I said from the off the protests should not have been allowed to go ahead and were a bad idea but I was pleased to see that statue go and yes it was funny. I liked the Clanging noise and splash. Bit Monty Python. Should have maybe left it at that though. That was enough of a statement really. Quick recap ... Mr Cummings is now "the most powerful man in the country" and you found vandalism and thuggery "funny" ... That just about sums up the mess of the last few weeks The mess has been going on a bit longer than that. Please don't say you and others have held those views for more than a few weeks ... Well ye I suppose now ya mention it , prolly just about 4 years Well now you mention it. You are right. It is about four years since it all became a mess. I cant quite put my finger on it but the economy went down the toilet, we somehow elected a bumbling moron as a leader who has completely screwed up just about everything he touches and we have the worst death toll in Europe from Covid 19 under his watch so yeah I guess we have held those views ever since Johnson hatched his plan for the number 1 job four years ago. Look at the state we are in now as a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-06-16 8:50 AM John52 - 2020-06-15 11:30 PM StuartO - 2020-06-15 3:27 PM Your expectation may be that every hint of any sort of target or intention by a politician is a guarantee but this is a national emergency and they are doing their best. It would be possible for my relative to make a fuss about the hospital's failure to test but why add to their problems? Get a life and try to be helpful rather than nit-picking Brian. The Editor of the Lancet has described the Government handling of Covid 19 as 'Catastrophic' :-( Wheras you describe criticism of it as 'nit-picking' 8-) What sort of a Doctor were you 8-) edited to add link: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/14/lancet-editor-attacks-uk-government-for-catastrophic-handling-of-covid-19-pandemic More importantly what kinda doctor is the editor of the Lancet? ;-) ........ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Horton_%28editor%29 He appears to have spent just 3 years on the the frontline as a doctor 8-) ........ Seems like he's another example of those who can..... do.....those who cant preach *-) ......... So is he a 'Loser' or a 'Remoaner' *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 8:55 AM Scargill wasn't a populist ... He was a die hard Labour man appealing to die hard Labour voters on a Tory hate ticket which pretty much sums up most of the squad on here who fight populism ... Why is Donald Trump dangerous? I chose these two as examples just to illustrate the left/right scope of populism. And I think Scargill was a charismatic rabble rouser who got the NUM behind him with an "us & them" banner very effectively during the Miners' Strike. It was of course a bad strategic move because it subjected the miners to a long and painful struggle and led to the closure of the deep mining coal industry in UK - and Scargill showed his true colour later during the prolonged personal dispute he had with the residue of the broken NUM trying to feather his own nest. Why is Trump dangerous? Well he recently tried to mobilise the US military to suppress the BLM activity (and fortunately failed) and there is now widespread concern being reported that he will refuse to leave office next January if he lose the election. He's clearly another effective rabble rouser. I think he's a loose cannon and very dangerous indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 10:44 AM Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 9:07 AM Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 8:57 AM Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 6:29 AM Barryd999 - 2020-06-15 10:33 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-15 6:58 PM Barryd999 - 2020-06-15 6:17 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-15 5:54 PM Nicepix - 2020-06-14 8:24 PM Bulletguy - 2020-06-14 5:17 PM Ah but the DM becomes a "lefty loser" paper run by "Remoaner" Geordie Grieg when it publishes articles that don't dance to the Brexiteers narrative. ;-) Interestingly UK has been knocked down into third place on the world stats for Covid-19 deaths as Brazil hit over 41,000 to become the second worst with US well out in the lead. More than a coincidence all three countries led by populism. What is the difference between populism and democracy? *-) I think the above question is based on a false premise. Populism is a form of democracy. I think the question is really, "what is the difference between representative democracy and populism". Representative democracy is what we presently have, where candidates to be MPs are elected by us on the basis that they will have access to information that most of us will not see, and will decide together whether government (the "executive") proposals should be implemented. So we pay them to do that work for us, and trust them to do so to the best of their judgement and ability. Populism, on the other hand, seems more akin to government by permanent referendum, where the MPs become delegates of their constituents, bound to do as instructed by them. The executive merely makes proposals, the proposals are taken by the MPs back to their constituents, who vote on them, and then return the results to parliament where the MPs will vote collectively as individually instructed, with the result becoming an instruction to the executive to proceed accordingly. So, the decision is moved closer to the people. The problems I see with populism are that it caters to the lowest common denominator, and not to the highest common factor. It also makes holding a settled policy almost impossible as moods and events swirl and shift within society. And finally it also seems to me overly prone to being hijacked by charismatic manipulators with dubious agendas. That will be President Cummings then that nobody voted for but is somehow running the country and above the law. Im confused again ... It really grinds you that Mr Cummings broke lockdown rules , you have mentioned it and complained about it quite a lot , yet you found if "funny" when others broke lockdown rules to vandalise and throw history in the sea ... let me in to your logic We weren't under lock down when they decided to chuck the statue in the drink. We were in the middle of the first wave and lock down when Cummings who is the most powerful man in the country decided to break his own rules and go for a jolly as well as breaking many other rules and then trying to cover it all up. I said from the off the protests should not have been allowed to go ahead and were a bad idea but I was pleased to see that statue go and yes it was funny. I liked the Clanging noise and splash. Bit Monty Python. Should have maybe left it at that though. That was enough of a statement really. Quick recap ... Mr Cummings is now "the most powerful man in the country" and you found vandalism and thuggery "funny" ... That just about sums up the mess of the last few weeks The mess has been going on a bit longer than that. Please don't say you and others have held those views for more than a few weeks ... Well ye I suppose now ya mention it , prolly just about 4 years Well now you mention it. You are right. It is about four years since it all became a mess. I cant quite put my finger on it but the economy went down the toilet, we somehow elected a bumbling moron as a leader who has completely screwed up just about everything he touches and we have the worst death toll in Europe from Covid 19 under his watch so yeah I guess we have held those views ever since Johnson hatched his plan for the number 1 job four years ago. Look at the state we are in now as a result. If our economy "went down the toilet" how would you describe most of the other EU members economies one might wonder ??? ... Given you proudly declared Mr Johnson as a "shi& excuse for a human being" your toilet silliness goes quite well with your pure hatred ... Hate on Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 StuartO - 2020-06-16 11:59 AM Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 8:55 AM Scargill wasn't a populist ... He was a die hard Labour man appealing to die hard Labour voters on a Tory hate ticket which pretty much sums up most of the squad on here who fight populism ... Why is Donald Trump dangerous? I chose these two as examples just to illustrate the left/right scope of populism. And I think Scargill was a charismatic rabble rouser who got the NUM behind him with an "us & them" banner very effectively during the Miners' Strike. It was of course a bad strategic move because it subjected the miners to a long and painful struggle and led to the closure of the deep mining coal industry in UK - and Scargill showed his true colour later during the prolonged personal dispute he had with the residue of the broken NUM trying to feather his own nest. Why is Trump dangerous? Well he recently tried to mobilise the US military to suppress the BLM activity (and fortunately failed) and there is now widespread concern being reported that he will refuse to leave office next January if he lose the election. He's clearly another effective rabble rouser. I think he's a loose cannon and very dangerous indeed. I know you are probably aware The Police in the US lost control of much of it to Black Lives Matter thugs and violence , murder , looting etc etc took over ... POTUS Trump surely acted sensibly to threaten military action ??? ... You are also probably aware EU Goldenboy Mr Macron planned to put the military on the streets in France to deal with Yellow Vest demonstrators , so one can only presume Mr Macron is a "loose cannon and very dangerous" also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 StuartO - 2020-06-15 3:27 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-15 2:44 PM It is, IMO, reasonable to expect that when a UK Secretary of State makes a statement that something has been done, it has, and that when they say it will be done, their writ will run. There may be all sorts of reasons or excuses for why something did not happen here and there, but surely no-one in a hospital can still remain unaware that the intention is to discharge bed-blockers to care homes as appropriate, but not before the patient has been tested, and the test result is negative? To plead ignorance of that intention is tantamount to constructive ignorance. The claim that care homes were being protected dates back to March, when Hancock claimed that measures had been in place to shield them from the beginning. The number of deaths, and their growth over time, is surely sufficient to at least raise serious questions about that claim? Your expectation may be that every hint of any sort of target or intention by a politician is a guarantee but this is a national emergency and they are doing their best. It would be possible for my relative to make a fuss about the hospital's failure to test but why add to their problems? Get a life and try to be helpful rather than nit-picking Brian. Don't tell me you're still hoping that despite the referendum and the recent General Election there isn't a majority in favour and Brexit won't happen? Oh, really, Stuart, I'm sorry, but this is "straw man" nonsense. These weren't hints, they were public announcements on prime time radio and TV news. As for conflating Brexit with a pandemic? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 12:29 PM I know you are probably aware The Police in the US lost control of much of it to Black Lives Matter thugs and violence , murder , looting etc etc took over ... POTUS Trump surely acted sensibly to threaten military action ??? ... You are also probably aware EU Goldenboy Mr Macron planned to put the military on the streets in France to deal with Yellow Vest demonstrators , so one can only presume Mr Macron is a "loose cannon and very dangerous" also I remember Trump coming out with "when the looting starts the shooting starts" which struck me as very un-statesmanlike. The French maintain a large, permanent public order police force, the CRS, and the Gendarmerie are actually military police rather than civilians, so I would have thought that gave Macron enough fire power but Hey Ho, I wasn't aware that Macron was actually planning to deploy military units on the streets as military fighting units. That would be quite an escalation, and a very risky one too. Difficult to predict how violent the reaction of the French public would be but I can't imagine they would take that development lightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 Nicepix - 2020-06-15 7:54 PM Prime Ministers have had advisors for years. Remember Tony Bliar and Alistair Campbell? Cumins is just the latest in a very long line. Regards Populism; It seems, as I said earlier, to be a derogatory term used by sore losers to describe the people who threaten them and their principles. The EU are terrified of anyone who thinks out of their box getting into power. Marine le Pen for example has been called 'Populist' by the EU leaders but she doesn't for into the description Brian Kirby posts. She has a long standing agenda that has hardly wavered in years ad follows the ideals of her predecessors. She has a loyal and solid party membership. And she does not bow to public pressure, quite the reverse, she remains 'on track'. Same could be said of Nigel Farage. So how are they 'Populist'? See here: https://tinyurl.com/hbsw3s4 As to who are "the people" and who the "elite", that rather depends on who is playing the populist politics, does it not? It is notable that the "populists" are not universally popular, and that few have risen to power, so their perceptions as to whose interests they are serving is by no means reliable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 6:57 AM.................Populism is mainly down to and a result of the likes of our very own squad on here and beyond so I thank them and say please carry on what you are doing and never stop as your your hatred does more for the growth of populism than any Nigel Farage could I almost hesitate to ask, but do you see Jair Bolsinaro as a good leader. He is widely regarded as populist, and has very strong backing in Brazil. And yet, is he really promoting the best interests of the average Brazilian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 StuartO - 2020-06-16 7:37 AM Populism is covered very well in Wikipedia so I suggest you read that - and take your time because its not easy to get your head around. Populism is a political approach to gathering support rather than a particular ideology, so it has been employed by people at both extremes of the left/right political spectrum. It's been around in one form or another for over a century, so it's not been invented recently. Essentially it is an "us and them" way of charactarising problems; "we the people" are right and "them" (the priviledged elite, the big corporations - or alternatively the soppy liberals currently in power) are the corrupt and devious abusers of the people - so that if the people listen to me, their saviour, they will be saved and we will triumph. Charismatic leaders can make effective use of populism. Arguably it targets the 50% of the people who are more gullible than the rest rather than trying to convince the 50% who are cleverer. Arguably it is the enemy of true democracy because it can lead to the election of dangerous people like Donald Trump and Arthur Scargill. An excellent summary Stuart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 10:44 AM.............................. so yeah I guess we have held those views ever since Johnson hatched his plan for the number 1 job four years ago. Look at the state we are in now as a result. Speak for yourself! :-D He wasn't exactly a hit as Foreign Secretary, and as European correspondent for the Telegraph, as it's then owner Conrad Black said of him, he "was such an effective correspondent for us in Brussels that he greatly influenced British opinion on this country’s relations with Europe." Too bloody right he did! He wrote fiction, but the owner liked the Eurosceptic drift of his writing so he got away with it. Must have been rewarding to find ones-self lauded by a convicted fraudster! :-) My distrust of Boris goes back way before the referendum. He is, IMO, deeply flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 StuartO - 2020-06-16 7:37 AM Populism is covered very well in Wikipedia so I suggest you read that - and take your time because its not easy to get your head around. Arguably it is the enemy of true democracy because it can lead to the election of dangerous people like Donald Trump and Arthur Scargill. You're right about it being right wing/left wing though someone like Chavez would have been a better comparison of 'left' to Trump than *Scargill! O/topic but imo the one major mistake Scargill made was calling a strike without balloting the members which i never figured why as at the time he would undoubtedly have got an overwhelming majority vote. *edited to add; just read your post as to why you chose Scargill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 StuartO - 2020-06-16 1:03 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 12:29 PM I know you are probably aware The Police in the US lost control of much of it to Black Lives Matter thugs and violence , murder , looting etc etc took over ... POTUS Trump surely acted sensibly to threaten military action ??? ... You are also probably aware EU Goldenboy Mr Macron planned to put the military on the streets in France to deal with Yellow Vest demonstrators , so one can only presume Mr Macron is a "loose cannon and very dangerous" also I remember Trump coming out with "when the looting starts the shooting starts" which struck me as very un-statesmanlike. Well Trump has never been a statesman imo, just an ex-reality tv show host who thinks he can run a country via Twitter. His stage swaggering uncannily reminiscent of Mussolini appeals to his followers. I've posted about this before but as you mentioned it, that inflammatory tweet he put out has it's roots in Americas dark history of racism and segregation when it was used by a Miami police chief in 1967 known for his racism. Headley's use of the phrase is thought to have contributed to intensified race riots, including one of the most serious ones in Miami in 1980, when a black man, Arthur McDuffie, was beaten into a coma by up to a dozen white Dade County police officers after he ran a red light on his motorcycle. He later died from his injuries. https://www.npr.org/2020/05/29/864818368/the-history-behind-when-the-looting-starts-the-shooting-starts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-06-16 1:59 PM Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 10:44 AM.............................. so yeah I guess we have held those views ever since Johnson hatched his plan for the number 1 job four years ago. Look at the state we are in now as a result. Speak for yourself! :-D He wasn't exactly a hit as Foreign Secretary, and as European correspondent for the Telegraph, as it's then owner Conrad Black said of him, he "was such an effective correspondent for us in Brussels that he greatly influenced British opinion on this country’s relations with Europe." Too bloody right he did! He wrote fiction, but the owner liked the Eurosceptic drift of his writing so he got away with it. Must have been rewarding to find ones-self lauded by a convicted fraudster! :-) My distrust of Boris goes back way before the referendum. He is, IMO, deeply flawed. His 'career' as a motoring journalist where he rarely made the deadline for copy, so lazy he'd expect others to do the job, and notorious for simply making up the technical details of the cars he tested, and anything he didn’t make up he made sure to stuff with sexual overtones. He wrote about everything from the breasts he imagined the sat-nav’s voice to have to overtaking women drivers by “taking them from behind”. His then-editor at GQ magazine, Dylan Jones, said that Boris’ column was probably the most costly in the magazine’s history, due to the sheer amount of parking tickets and fines he accrued on his test vehicles. https://www.carkeys.co.uk/news/boris-johnson-was-once-the-world-s-worst-car-journalist One of his ex-bosses, Max Hastings then editor of the Telegraph said, "while he is a brilliant entertainer he is unfit for national office, because it seems he cares for no interest save his own fame and gratification." https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/24/boris-johnson-prime-minister-tory-party-britain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted June 16, 2020 Author Share Posted June 16, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 12:22 PM Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 10:44 AM Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 9:07 AM Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 8:57 AM Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 6:29 AM Barryd999 - 2020-06-15 10:33 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-15 6:58 PM Barryd999 - 2020-06-15 6:17 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-15 5:54 PM Nicepix - 2020-06-14 8:24 PM Bulletguy - 2020-06-14 5:17 PM Ah but the DM becomes a "lefty loser" paper run by "Remoaner" Geordie Grieg when it publishes articles that don't dance to the Brexiteers narrative. ;-) Interestingly UK has been knocked down into third place on the world stats for Covid-19 deaths as Brazil hit over 41,000 to become the second worst with US well out in the lead. More than a coincidence all three countries led by populism. What is the difference between populism and democracy? *-) I think the above question is based on a false premise. Populism is a form of democracy. I think the question is really, "what is the difference between representative democracy and populism". Representative democracy is what we presently have, where candidates to be MPs are elected by us on the basis that they will have access to information that most of us will not see, and will decide together whether government (the "executive") proposals should be implemented. So we pay them to do that work for us, and trust them to do so to the best of their judgement and ability. Populism, on the other hand, seems more akin to government by permanent referendum, where the MPs become delegates of their constituents, bound to do as instructed by them. The executive merely makes proposals, the proposals are taken by the MPs back to their constituents, who vote on them, and then return the results to parliament where the MPs will vote collectively as individually instructed, with the result becoming an instruction to the executive to proceed accordingly. So, the decision is moved closer to the people. The problems I see with populism are that it caters to the lowest common denominator, and not to the highest common factor. It also makes holding a settled policy almost impossible as moods and events swirl and shift within society. And finally it also seems to me overly prone to being hijacked by charismatic manipulators with dubious agendas. That will be President Cummings then that nobody voted for but is somehow running the country and above the law. Im confused again ... It really grinds you that Mr Cummings broke lockdown rules , you have mentioned it and complained about it quite a lot , yet you found if "funny" when others broke lockdown rules to vandalise and throw history in the sea ... let me in to your logic We weren't under lock down when they decided to chuck the statue in the drink. We were in the middle of the first wave and lock down when Cummings who is the most powerful man in the country decided to break his own rules and go for a jolly as well as breaking many other rules and then trying to cover it all up. I said from the off the protests should not have been allowed to go ahead and were a bad idea but I was pleased to see that statue go and yes it was funny. I liked the Clanging noise and splash. Bit Monty Python. Should have maybe left it at that though. That was enough of a statement really. Quick recap ... Mr Cummings is now "the most powerful man in the country" and you found vandalism and thuggery "funny" ... That just about sums up the mess of the last few weeks The mess has been going on a bit longer than that. Please don't say you and others have held those views for more than a few weeks ... Well ye I suppose now ya mention it , prolly just about 4 years Well now you mention it. You are right. It is about four years since it all became a mess. I cant quite put my finger on it but the economy went down the toilet, we somehow elected a bumbling moron as a leader who has completely screwed up just about everything he touches and we have the worst death toll in Europe from Covid 19 under his watch so yeah I guess we have held those views ever since Johnson hatched his plan for the number 1 job four years ago. Look at the state we are in now as a result. If our economy "went down the toilet" how would you describe most of the other EU members economies one might wonder ??? ... Given you proudly declared Mr Johnson as a "shi& excuse for a human being" your toilet silliness goes quite well with your pure hatred ... Hate on Barry Ours started going down the toilet four years ago though because of the Brexit vote which has now cost us more money than we ever paid into the EU throughout nearly half a century of membership. Its cost us much more in human lives now though as you elected a leader who is totally incompetent and a one trick pony. The one Trick being able to do what a good populist leader does and convince just over half a nation that his path is the right one by telling a pack of lies and promising the earth while dividing the entire nation at the same time. All so he could carve his route to number 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 4:08 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 12:22 PM Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 10:44 AM Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 9:07 AM Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 8:57 AM Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 6:29 AM Barryd999 - 2020-06-15 10:33 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-15 6:58 PM Barryd999 - 2020-06-15 6:17 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-15 5:54 PM Nicepix - 2020-06-14 8:24 PM Bulletguy - 2020-06-14 5:17 PM Ah but the DM becomes a "lefty loser" paper run by "Remoaner" Geordie Grieg when it publishes articles that don't dance to the Brexiteers narrative. ;-) Interestingly UK has been knocked down into third place on the world stats for Covid-19 deaths as Brazil hit over 41,000 to become the second worst with US well out in the lead. More than a coincidence all three countries led by populism. What is the difference between populism and democracy? *-) I think the above question is based on a false premise. Populism is a form of democracy. I think the question is really, "what is the difference between representative democracy and populism". Representative democracy is what we presently have, where candidates to be MPs are elected by us on the basis that they will have access to information that most of us will not see, and will decide together whether government (the "executive") proposals should be implemented. So we pay them to do that work for us, and trust them to do so to the best of their judgement and ability. Populism, on the other hand, seems more akin to government by permanent referendum, where the MPs become delegates of their constituents, bound to do as instructed by them. The executive merely makes proposals, the proposals are taken by the MPs back to their constituents, who vote on them, and then return the results to parliament where the MPs will vote collectively as individually instructed, with the result becoming an instruction to the executive to proceed accordingly. So, the decision is moved closer to the people. The problems I see with populism are that it caters to the lowest common denominator, and not to the highest common factor. It also makes holding a settled policy almost impossible as moods and events swirl and shift within society. And finally it also seems to me overly prone to being hijacked by charismatic manipulators with dubious agendas. That will be President Cummings then that nobody voted for but is somehow running the country and above the law. Im confused again ... It really grinds you that Mr Cummings broke lockdown rules , you have mentioned it and complained about it quite a lot , yet you found if "funny" when others broke lockdown rules to vandalise and throw history in the sea ... let me in to your logic We weren't under lock down when they decided to chuck the statue in the drink. We were in the middle of the first wave and lock down when Cummings who is the most powerful man in the country decided to break his own rules and go for a jolly as well as breaking many other rules and then trying to cover it all up. I said from the off the protests should not have been allowed to go ahead and were a bad idea but I was pleased to see that statue go and yes it was funny. I liked the Clanging noise and splash. Bit Monty Python. Should have maybe left it at that though. That was enough of a statement really. Quick recap ... Mr Cummings is now "the most powerful man in the country" and you found vandalism and thuggery "funny" ... That just about sums up the mess of the last few weeks The mess has been going on a bit longer than that. Please don't say you and others have held those views for more than a few weeks ... Well ye I suppose now ya mention it , prolly just about 4 years Well now you mention it. You are right. It is about four years since it all became a mess. I cant quite put my finger on it but the economy went down the toilet, we somehow elected a bumbling moron as a leader who has completely screwed up just about everything he touches and we have the worst death toll in Europe from Covid 19 under his watch so yeah I guess we have held those views ever since Johnson hatched his plan for the number 1 job four years ago. Look at the state we are in now as a result. If our economy "went down the toilet" how would you describe most of the other EU members economies one might wonder ??? ... Given you proudly declared Mr Johnson as a "shi& excuse for a human being" your toilet silliness goes quite well with your pure hatred ... Hate on Barry Ours started going down the toilet four years ago though because of the Brexit vote which has now cost us more money than we ever paid into the EU throughout nearly half a century of membership. Its cost us much more in human lives now though as you elected a leader who is totally incompetent and a one trick pony. The one Trick being able to do what a good populist leader does and convince just over half a nation that his path is the right one by telling a pack of lies and promising the earth while dividing the entire nation at the same time. All so he could carve his route to number 10. I thought you said Dominic Cummings was in charge ??? ... If so whats the guff about "elected a leader" , I dont remember him going for the Tory leadership ??? ... If Brexit in your view is to blame for our economy just what was/is to blame for EU worlds economies failing , when did they have a Brexit vote ??? ... As for the Covid death figure here in Blighty its been well documented that black deaths have been a major contributor to our tally , that comes as no surprise after the last couple of weeks when they have judged rioting more important than theirs and others safety including The Police , health workers etc etc ... You found certain parts or maybe all "funny" though ... Strange boy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 4:08 PM being able to do what a good populist leader does and convince just over half a nation that his path is the right one by telling a pack of lies and promising the earth while dividing the entire nation at the same time. All so he could carve his route to number 10. Wasn't even half tough was it - the majority voted for parties that support a second referendum. BoJo got in on a minority of the vote by the same old trick of divide and rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicepix Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 StuartO - 2020-06-16 8:37 AM Populism is covered very well in Wikipedia so I suggest you read that - and take your time because its not easy to get your head around. Populism is a political approach to gathering support rather than a particular ideology, so it has been employed by people at both extremes of the left/right political spectrum. It's been around in one form or another for over a century, so it's not been invented recently. Essentially it is an "us and them" way of charactarising problems; "we the people" are right and "them" (the priviledged elite, the big corporations - or alternatively the soppy liberals currently in power) are the corrupt and devious abusers of the people - so that if the people listen to me, their saviour, they will be saved and we will triumph. Charismatic leaders can make effective use of populism. Arguably it targets the 50% of the people who are more gullible than the rest rather than trying to convince the 50% who are cleverer. Arguably it is the enemy of true democracy because it can lead to the election of dangerous people like Donald Trump and Arthur Scargill. Where would you put Tony Bliar? He was democratically elected three times after being selected by his own party and he was dangerous. What about John F Kennedy and Dubbya? Both of those almost took us to WW3. Dangerous enough for me. Are you saying that only what you term Populist leaders are dangerous? I agree that it is a case of "us and them". But I suggest that it is the settled political heirachy who claim to be "Us" and they portray anybody who looks like unsettling their closed shop as "Them". The purpose to make "Them" seem to be a worse choice than "Us". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted June 16, 2020 Author Share Posted June 16, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 4:38 PM Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 4:08 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 12:22 PM Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 10:44 AM Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 9:07 AM Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 8:57 AM Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 6:29 AM Barryd999 - 2020-06-15 10:33 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-15 6:58 PM Barryd999 - 2020-06-15 6:17 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-15 5:54 PM Nicepix - 2020-06-14 8:24 PM Bulletguy - 2020-06-14 5:17 PM Ah but the DM becomes a "lefty loser" paper run by "Remoaner" Geordie Grieg when it publishes articles that don't dance to the Brexiteers narrative. ;-) Interestingly UK has been knocked down into third place on the world stats for Covid-19 deaths as Brazil hit over 41,000 to become the second worst with US well out in the lead. More than a coincidence all three countries led by populism. What is the difference between populism and democracy? *-) I think the above question is based on a false premise. Populism is a form of democracy. I think the question is really, "what is the difference between representative democracy and populism". Representative democracy is what we presently have, where candidates to be MPs are elected by us on the basis that they will have access to information that most of us will not see, and will decide together whether government (the "executive") proposals should be implemented. So we pay them to do that work for us, and trust them to do so to the best of their judgement and ability. Populism, on the other hand, seems more akin to government by permanent referendum, where the MPs become delegates of their constituents, bound to do as instructed by them. The executive merely makes proposals, the proposals are taken by the MPs back to their constituents, who vote on them, and then return the results to parliament where the MPs will vote collectively as individually instructed, with the result becoming an instruction to the executive to proceed accordingly. So, the decision is moved closer to the people. The problems I see with populism are that it caters to the lowest common denominator, and not to the highest common factor. It also makes holding a settled policy almost impossible as moods and events swirl and shift within society. And finally it also seems to me overly prone to being hijacked by charismatic manipulators with dubious agendas. That will be President Cummings then that nobody voted for but is somehow running the country and above the law. Im confused again ... It really grinds you that Mr Cummings broke lockdown rules , you have mentioned it and complained about it quite a lot , yet you found if "funny" when others broke lockdown rules to vandalise and throw history in the sea ... let me in to your logic We weren't under lock down when they decided to chuck the statue in the drink. We were in the middle of the first wave and lock down when Cummings who is the most powerful man in the country decided to break his own rules and go for a jolly as well as breaking many other rules and then trying to cover it all up. I said from the off the protests should not have been allowed to go ahead and were a bad idea but I was pleased to see that statue go and yes it was funny. I liked the Clanging noise and splash. Bit Monty Python. Should have maybe left it at that though. That was enough of a statement really. Quick recap ... Mr Cummings is now "the most powerful man in the country" and you found vandalism and thuggery "funny" ... That just about sums up the mess of the last few weeks The mess has been going on a bit longer than that. Please don't say you and others have held those views for more than a few weeks ... Well ye I suppose now ya mention it , prolly just about 4 years Well now you mention it. You are right. It is about four years since it all became a mess. I cant quite put my finger on it but the economy went down the toilet, we somehow elected a bumbling moron as a leader who has completely screwed up just about everything he touches and we have the worst death toll in Europe from Covid 19 under his watch so yeah I guess we have held those views ever since Johnson hatched his plan for the number 1 job four years ago. Look at the state we are in now as a result. If our economy "went down the toilet" how would you describe most of the other EU members economies one might wonder ??? ... Given you proudly declared Mr Johnson as a "shi& excuse for a human being" your toilet silliness goes quite well with your pure hatred ... Hate on Barry Ours started going down the toilet four years ago though because of the Brexit vote which has now cost us more money than we ever paid into the EU throughout nearly half a century of membership. Its cost us much more in human lives now though as you elected a leader who is totally incompetent and a one trick pony. The one Trick being able to do what a good populist leader does and convince just over half a nation that his path is the right one by telling a pack of lies and promising the earth while dividing the entire nation at the same time. All so he could carve his route to number 10. I thought you said Dominic Cummings was in charge ??? ... If so whats the guff about "elected a leader" , I dont remember him going for the Tory leadership ??? ... If Brexit in your view is to blame for our economy just what was/is to blame for EU worlds economies failing , when did they have a Brexit vote ??? ... As for the Covid death figure here in Blighty its been well documented that black deaths have been a major contributor to our tally , that comes as no surprise after the last couple of weeks when they have judged rioting more important than theirs and others safety including The Police , health workers etc etc ... You found certain parts or maybe all "funny" though ... Strange boy Cummings was part of the package though wasnt he. He's like that little guy in Mad Max beyond Thunder Dome. Master Blaster was it? Controlling the oaf beneath him. They kept him hidden during the election though. In fact he supposedly resigned but of course never really. Selective memory over the economy. We took a big hit because of Brexit long before any downturn in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 StuartO - 2020-06-16 11:59 AM And I think Scargill was a charismatic rabble rouser who got the NUM behind him with an "us & them" banner very effectively during the Miners' Strike. It was of course a bad strategic move because it subjected the miners to a long and painful struggle and led to the closure of the deep mining coal industry in UK - and Scargill showed his true colour later during the prolonged personal dispute he had with the residue of the broken NUM trying to feather his own nest. Not exactly. Scargill got over 70% of the vote by appealing to miners who wanted to feather their own nest just like he did for himself. He began as compensation agent - like the claims management companies of today asking if you have been injured etc. He was very effective in pursuing claims - to hear him talk you would think the employer was some grotesque victorian mine owner, instead of the general public who by then owned the mines. Scargill was the man who turned up at the miners welfare with the big cheques for injured miners. So he became very popular very quickly, and rose rapidly up the ladder. Many who voted for him knew he was a bit of a nutter, but thought they could rein him in before he went too far. Unfortunately, when the time came, they couldn't rein him in :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 6:13 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 4:38 PM Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 4:08 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 12:22 PM Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 10:44 AM Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 9:07 AM Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 8:57 AM Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 6:29 AM Barryd999 - 2020-06-15 10:33 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-15 6:58 PM Barryd999 - 2020-06-15 6:17 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-15 5:54 PM Nicepix - 2020-06-14 8:24 PM Bulletguy - 2020-06-14 5:17 PM Ah but the DM becomes a "lefty loser" paper run by "Remoaner" Geordie Grieg when it publishes articles that don't dance to the Brexiteers narrative. ;-) Interestingly UK has been knocked down into third place on the world stats for Covid-19 deaths as Brazil hit over 41,000 to become the second worst with US well out in the lead. More than a coincidence all three countries led by populism. What is the difference between populism and democracy? *-) I think the above question is based on a false premise. Populism is a form of democracy. I think the question is really, "what is the difference between representative democracy and populism". Representative democracy is what we presently have, where candidates to be MPs are elected by us on the basis that they will have access to information that most of us will not see, and will decide together whether government (the "executive") proposals should be implemented. So we pay them to do that work for us, and trust them to do so to the best of their judgement and ability. Populism, on the other hand, seems more akin to government by permanent referendum, where the MPs become delegates of their constituents, bound to do as instructed by them. The executive merely makes proposals, the proposals are taken by the MPs back to their constituents, who vote on them, and then return the results to parliament where the MPs will vote collectively as individually instructed, with the result becoming an instruction to the executive to proceed accordingly. So, the decision is moved closer to the people. The problems I see with populism are that it caters to the lowest common denominator, and not to the highest common factor. It also makes holding a settled policy almost impossible as moods and events swirl and shift within society. And finally it also seems to me overly prone to being hijacked by charismatic manipulators with dubious agendas. That will be President Cummings then that nobody voted for but is somehow running the country and above the law. Im confused again ... It really grinds you that Mr Cummings broke lockdown rules , you have mentioned it and complained about it quite a lot , yet you found if "funny" when others broke lockdown rules to vandalise and throw history in the sea ... let me in to your logic We weren't under lock down when they decided to chuck the statue in the drink. We were in the middle of the first wave and lock down when Cummings who is the most powerful man in the country decided to break his own rules and go for a jolly as well as breaking many other rules and then trying to cover it all up. I said from the off the protests should not have been allowed to go ahead and were a bad idea but I was pleased to see that statue go and yes it was funny. I liked the Clanging noise and splash. Bit Monty Python. Should have maybe left it at that though. That was enough of a statement really. Quick recap ... Mr Cummings is now "the most powerful man in the country" and you found vandalism and thuggery "funny" ... That just about sums up the mess of the last few weeks The mess has been going on a bit longer than that. Please don't say you and others have held those views for more than a few weeks ... Well ye I suppose now ya mention it , prolly just about 4 years Well now you mention it. You are right. It is about four years since it all became a mess. I cant quite put my finger on it but the economy went down the toilet, we somehow elected a bumbling moron as a leader who has completely screwed up just about everything he touches and we have the worst death toll in Europe from Covid 19 under his watch so yeah I guess we have held those views ever since Johnson hatched his plan for the number 1 job four years ago. Look at the state we are in now as a result. If our economy "went down the toilet" how would you describe most of the other EU members economies one might wonder ??? ... Given you proudly declared Mr Johnson as a "shi& excuse for a human being" your toilet silliness goes quite well with your pure hatred ... Hate on Barry Ours started going down the toilet four years ago though because of the Brexit vote which has now cost us more money than we ever paid into the EU throughout nearly half a century of membership. Its cost us much more in human lives now though as you elected a leader who is totally incompetent and a one trick pony. The one Trick being able to do what a good populist leader does and convince just over half a nation that his path is the right one by telling a pack of lies and promising the earth while dividing the entire nation at the same time. All so he could carve his route to number 10. I thought you said Dominic Cummings was in charge ??? ... If so whats the guff about "elected a leader" , I dont remember him going for the Tory leadership ??? ... If Brexit in your view is to blame for our economy just what was/is to blame for EU worlds economies failing , when did they have a Brexit vote ??? ... As for the Covid death figure here in Blighty its been well documented that black deaths have been a major contributor to our tally , that comes as no surprise after the last couple of weeks when they have judged rioting more important than theirs and others safety including The Police , health workers etc etc ... You found certain parts or maybe all "funny" though ... Strange boy Cummings was part of the package though wasnt he. He's like that little guy in Mad Max beyond Thunder Dome. Master Blaster was it? Controlling the oaf beneath him. They kept him hidden during the election though. In fact he supposedly resigned but of course never really. Selective memory over the economy. We took a big hit because of Brexit long before any downturn in Europe. You know best as always but your Bible told a different story before Brexit ... https://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/oct/15/triple-dip-recession-eurozone-fears-germany-cuts-growth-forecasts ... As for your likening of Mr Cummings to a Mad Max character , when all you have left is Hollywood guff you're in trouble ... Hate on Barry ... By the way Arthur Scargill has nothing to do with the original thread subject , you are very keen to tell me to stick to the thread subject so why havent you ... Again ??? ... Hypocrite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 John52 - 2020-06-16 6:17 PM StuartO - 2020-06-16 11:59 AM And I think Scargill was a charismatic rabble rouser who got the NUM behind him with an "us & them" banner very effectively during the Miners' Strike. It was of course a bad strategic move because it subjected the miners to a long and painful struggle and led to the closure of the deep mining coal industry in UK - and Scargill showed his true colour later during the prolonged personal dispute he had with the residue of the broken NUM trying to feather his own nest. Not exactly. Scargill got over 70% of the vote by appealing to miners who wanted to feather their own nest just like he did for himself. He began as compensation agent - like the claims management companies of today asking if you have been injured etc. He was very effective in pursuing claims - to hear him talk you would think the employer was some grotesque victorian mine owner, instead of the general public who by then owned the mines. Scargill was the man who turned up at the miners welfare with the big cheques for injured miners. So he became very popular very quickly, and rose rapidly up the ladder. Many who voted for him knew he was a bit of a nutter, but thought they could rein him in before he went too far. Unfortunately, when the time came, they couldn't rein him in :-S By the time those miners realised they'd been taken in by a big Labour man hell bent on bringing down the Tories with their help it was too late ... Many of those miners by the way now own their own council houses thanks to those nasty Tories ... Hate on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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