Birdbrain Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-07-08 12:01 PM Birdbrain - 2020-07-08 9:00 AM Barryd999 - 2020-07-07 12:44 PM Nicepix - 2020-07-07 11:54 AM Barryd999 - 2020-07-07 9:53 AM Nicepix - 2020-07-06 9:04 PM Barryd999 - 2020-07-06 6:46 PM jumpstart - 2020-07-06 5:30 PM pepe63 - 2020-07-06 11:54 AM Whilst those who voted to leave would have done so for a number of reasons, please lets not pretend that the "main" reason that Mr/Mrs Average Brexiteer- in- the- street voted as he/she did , was anything to do with "trade deals", and who we were/weren't able to have them with.... *-) No, it was clear from the subject matter in the main media, and the "talk" on social media (very much including this forum) that at the time it wasn't about the above, it was about all those funny "Johnnie Foreigner" types who were supposedly "..comin' ova 'ere..takin' our jobs..cloggin' up our NHS..and scroungin' our benefits.." etc etc. Also for some, the fact that we (the UK) were having to sit around a table with the aforementioned Johnnie Foreigners' representatives, instead of at the head of it, was never ever going to sit well... :-S I know it’s fashionable to say that was all about “foreigners” but funnily enough trade and how the EU fails it’s citizens was what people voted on. That might have been your reasons but it certainly wasnt the reasons most people voted for Brexit. ) You never learn do you? How on earth have you got the detailed information to evidence that claim? No wonder nobody takes you seriously. (lol) Seriously? Have you been on a desert island for four years or something? You really would have had to either been cut off from the rest of the world or been walking around with your head up your arse not to believe that immigration was the single biggest reason people voted for Brexit. All the polling leading up to the Brexit vote showed this. Of course after the vote was won as if by magic those that cited immigration as their main reason for voting to leave the EU suddenly decided it was not their main concern after all and the figures citing Immigration as a main concern dropped dramatically. Odd huh? *-) Breaking point anyone? You cannot say with any authority that most people who voted for Brexit did so because of any one reason. If you can then prove it by showing us where the information concerning every voter's reasons can be found. It is pure snobbery put about by people who simply cannot accept democracy. My wife's ex-boss runs 7 veterinary surgeries, no mug, and he voted Leave because the EU is strangling his business with all its unnecessary regulations designed merely to keep the EU's economies ticking along. Both sides are as guilty as each other of being mis-informed. I can point to friends and customers who voted Remain simply down to personal circumstances; one for example points to EU funding at the university where his wife works. He doesn't know for sure whether the UK Government would take up the funding, but he voted Remain because he wasn't sure. Another couple who require expensive medication that is currently provided by the mutual agreements voted Remain because they weren't sure whether they would have to pay for it in future. I'll wager that hundreds of thousands in each camp voted the same way; for personal, not national interests. There is a political saying that to overcome the inertia of not changing you need a lot of votes. The 52:48 split doesn't represent truly the country's feelings. Of those Remain supporters I have spoken to at length about this issue not one knew of the EU's manifesto. Not one had heard of the EU publication 'Three Visions, One Direction' that lays a clear path to an EU army, EU border guards, further integration of politics and financial controls including the appointment of an EU Head of Finance who could over rule member state's budgets or spending plans. Not one knew that the EU absorbed 80% of all import duties on goods coming in from outside the EU. Not one knew the EU creamed off some of the VAT everybody pays. Three Visions, One Direction is an Orwelian document put together by the EU's press office is the fruit of Merkel, Macron and Junckers who are all arch-Fedralists. In fact you will find it difficult to find anyone who is not hell bent on Federalism and "More Europe". in the EU heirachy That is one of the big problems with the EU; there is no balance. So Europe is sleepwalking into a nightmare scenario akin to the USSR. Brexit might seem to be a big leap in the dark. A bit like jumping off a moving train. But when you know where that train is heading, the risk of jumping into the unknown is better than arriving meekly at the known. Go and do some research yourself. Look at the polls for around early 2016. By a country mile you will see the majority cited Immigration as a key reason for voting to leave the EU. Well that and lots of stupid EU laws that when pressed nobody could ever think of any apart from the made up one about Bananas. I am sure you can show a few personal examples of clever people who voted to leave or remainers that had a vested interest in remaining. So what? It proves nothing. Over thirty million people voted. 99% of them probably didnt understand the stuff you just googled about the EU publication 'Three Visions, One Direction'. The most popular search in the UK on google the day after the referendum was "what is the EU?". The UK had the best deal out of all the countries within the EU with more opt outs including opt outs from further federalisation than any other member. EU Army? So what? Why would that be such a bad thing and even if it ever did happen which is unlikely why would we not want to be part of it and if we didnt we can just veto it or not participate. We kind of have joint military operations already anyway. The fear of an EU army by Brexiteers is just typical of their distrust of Johnny Foreigner. Like somehow we are just better than they are or the thought of our brave soldiers being ordered about by some Frenchman is just too much to bear for some of them. Anyway its irrelevant as Brexit was won on a s**t load of lies and plane old racism. Democracy? Dont make me laugh. Our Democracy died in 2016. "Our Democracy died in 2016" ... You conveniently forget all the legal challenges to the result you dont like , the treacherous MPs , the 2 general elections ... Democracy hasn't "died" , accepting results seems to though And you forget the real reason there were so many legal challenges, MPs objections, resignations and defections, two general elections and the biggest demonstrations the country has ever seen. Why do you think we had never seen the like of all that before? Did you ever seem me complaining or demonstrating about unfair or undemocratic elections before 2016 or anyone else for that matter? No, because the reason for all that was the undemocratic, dishonest and illegal way the entire referendum was carried out and then the continuation of that in the following years leading up to where we are now facing down the barrel of a No deal gun that apparently nobody voted for and nobody wanted. So yes. It killed democracy and divided a nation for probably not just one generation. The fella that finds thuggery , violence and vandalism "funny" gets on his high horse about supposed "dishonest and illegal" tactics during the referendum by I presume only the Leave side ??? ... Hypocrite ... Accept the result and move on FFS , you've wasted years on it hater Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Nicepix - 2020-07-07 7:03 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-07 5:01 PM pepe63 - 2020-07-07 2:02 PM...………………..If the EU is really that bad, that poorly run and that corrupt (and it may well be all of those things, who knows?) then why on earth would leave voters choose to live within it's borders? :-S And why would the other 27 member states all wish to remain a part of it - unless of course, the Brexiters think the other 27 states are also "that bad, that poorly run and that corrupt", in which case they at least show consistent prejudice! :-D 1 Being in the EU suits some member countries; Germany for one. Others are wooed by the financial incentives and don't mind for the moment having their buying habits manipulated as long as the cash keeps flowing in. That is what the EU has become; a money go round. The UK had the worst deal. Italy and Greece will pull the plug and the V4 will either have to be expelled or the EU eats humble pie and then everyone will feel that they can break the rules. 2 Why do I choose to live within its borders despite being anti-EU? Because the EU is all but finished. I'll give it another five years at most. Hopefully then we can all have the trading agreement that we voted to join and non of this self-serving politico-legal monolith that the EU has grown into behind our backs. 1 The implication being that it does not suit others. I see where you are leading, but I don't see the evidence - either from you, or from wider reports. Who else is actively pursuing departure? Hungary? Orban is popular, but will he pull Hungary out of the EU? Hungary needs the EU, without which it would gain financial assistance from where? Ukraine? Russia? That didn't work out too well the last time they did that, did it? No-one is ever 100% satisfied with the outcomes of politics. Are you 100% satisfied with events in the UK, or France, at present? But, buying habits manipulated by the EU? Really? How? To what end? The EU has become a money-go-round? Is the UK, France, or any other country, not a money-go-round? The whole world is a money-go-round. Money-go-rounds are more usually called economies. Or do I misunderstand? How did the UK get the worst deal? How and when? Most seem to think what the UK ended up with was the best deal of all, with no Schengen, no Charter of Fundamental Rights, no Area of Freedom, Security, and Justice, and no Euro. How is that the worst? Your final sentence is a bit of a hostage to fortune. You may think that: I expect you to be proved wrong! :-D 2 Your decision, your prerogative. But I don't think you will ever get to see what you (mistakenly, I'm bound to say) think of as "the trading agreement that we voted to join". I'm assuming here that you bought the idea of the "Common Market" - that phrase used by certain UK politicians, and numerous journalists - back in 1973? That "Common Market" that was more properly called the European Economic Community. That European Economic Community whose principal objective was, from the outset, the economic integration of its member states? That European Economic Community that had evolved from the 1949 10 nation Council of Europe, to become the six nation 1951 European Coal and Steel Community, and again to the point at which the same six nations signed the 1955 Treaty of Rome? That the UK had tried to join in 1961, was rejected, and eventually joined along with Denmark, and Ireland in 1973, and had, by 2016 expanded to become a confederation of 28 countries called the European Union? At what point along its evolutionary path did that confederation morph into the "self-serving politico-legal monolith" you so clearly despise? Can you imagine a confederation of 28 nation states engaging in a free trade area with no common agreements on product standards, on a legal framework for dispute resolution, on harmonisation of taxation, on border formalities, on the movement of its combined peoples, all designed primarily to prevent any one country gaining unreasonable advantage over the others, or being unreasonably disadvantaged by the others? How, without a central, democratic, voluntarily, institution to police and manage the workings of that market and the interrelationships of its member states, could such a market function. It has its present form because people drawn from all its member states, by appointment or by public election, propose and enact the manner, and the extent, to which it performs the duties they have agreed to impose on it. How then is that institution a "self-serving politico-legal monolith". Is it perfect? Of course it isn't, any more than the UK is, or has been at any point in its history, perfect. It is, just as we all are, and have always been, a work in progress. It is a huge, risky, social and economic experiment, aimed at managing conflicting national interests in the absence of armed conflict. All things considered, and taking account of the fact that it is ultimately envisaged, staffed, and run, by a polyglot group of human beings rather than by Gods, it is a remarkable achievement. Rejecting it as a "self-serving politico-legal monolith" is to let the perfect become the enemy of the good. That rejection will not achieve perfection, any more than espousing it did - it will merely achieve continually differing variations on what, from time to time, becomes achievable for a medium sized country with relatively limited military, political, and financial clout. As Macmillan supposedly said, when asked what was likely to blow his government off course, "Events, dear boy, events"! Just as we have always been, we shall remain the victims, though probably now rather more vulnerable victims, of events. It's called history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-07-08 6:32 AM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-07 11:37 AM Birdbrain - 2020-07-06 7:43 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-06 6:56 PM 747 - 2020-07-06 12:34 PM...……………………….So the EU is looking after its member States ..... absolutely hilarious. In the 2008/9 economic downturn they did nothing ... until it looked like the Euro would collapse, along with the EU. Southern European countries were bankrupted while Northern ones protected themselves. The Covid epidemic was past its peak when they reluctantly offered some financial aid. It is a club with first and second class members, we are in the second group. I think this misrepresents what the EU can do/could have done. The EU has no funding stream for such interventions. It requires unanimity of all member states to change its budget. Those countries in trouble in 2010 were suffering from their own economic mismanagement (plus in several cases - most notably Greece - their cheating in order to qualify for Euro membership) and the other member states were uninclined to underwrite their profligacy. Economic measures were eventually agreed, but not as a direct result of the 2008 crash. That merely exposed those who'd been skinny dipping, to quote Warren Buffet's popular phrase of the time. The EU had no role in their predicaments, that had brought that on themselves. The real reason for the bail-outs was to protect the Euro from the impact of a number of countries re-introducing their old currencies in order to devalue. The bail-outs were judged a less damaging option. Are you saying Greece and "other member states" conned the EU ??? ... No way that cant be right Yes, as was widely reported at the time, various countries, most notably Greece, "cooked their books" by concealing substantial debts with the aid of various financial institutions - that most referenced at the time being Goldman Sachs. It was also suggested that the EU were aware this was happening, but were more anxious to ensure that the maximum number of member states joined the €, to give it weight on international markets as a disincentive to speculation. As a new currency, it needed to have, and maintain, "critical mass" in the interests of value stability. It seems to have been a case of "needs must when the devil drives". To that extent, it worked. Crikey who'd have thought it ... The Euro and therefore the EU built on on the back of cooked books and dodgy accountants ... I just cant believe it The Euro yes. But how you get to reason that applies equally to the EU as a whole is beyond me. Where did I say that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-07-08 8:38 AM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-07 4:01 PM pepe63 - 2020-07-07 2:02 PM...………………..If the EU is really that bad, that poorly run and that corrupt (and it may well be all of those things, who knows?) then why on earth would leave voters choose to live within it's borders? :-S And why would the other 27 member states all wish to remain a part of it - unless of course, the Brexiters think the other 27 states are also "that bad, that poorly run and that corrupt", in which case they at least show consistent prejudice! :-D Half of that 27 are net recievers ;-) ..........and the other half prolly see paying off the Fourth Reich as a cheaper option than having them invade again >:-) .......... Which is "prollyl" paranoid crap! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-07-08 1:10 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-08 8:38 AM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-07 4:01 PM pepe63 - 2020-07-07 2:02 PM...………………..If the EU is really that bad, that poorly run and that corrupt (and it may well be all of those things, who knows?) then why on earth would leave voters choose to live within it's borders? :-S And why would the other 27 member states all wish to remain a part of it - unless of course, the Brexiters think the other 27 states are also "that bad, that poorly run and that corrupt", in which case they at least show consistent prejudice! :-D Half of that 27 are net recievers ;-) ..........and the other half prolly see paying off the Fourth Reich as a cheaper option than having them invade again >:-) .......... Which is "prollyl" paranoid crap! :-D So no EU countries get more out than they put in? ;-) .........and all the top jobs in the EU dont have a German in charge? >:-) .......... I rather be paranoid than a German sycophant any day of the week B-) ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-07-08 1:08 PM Birdbrain - 2020-07-08 6:32 AM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-07 11:37 AM Birdbrain - 2020-07-06 7:43 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-06 6:56 PM 747 - 2020-07-06 12:34 PM...……………………….So the EU is looking after its member States ..... absolutely hilarious. In the 2008/9 economic downturn they did nothing ... until it looked like the Euro would collapse, along with the EU. Southern European countries were bankrupted while Northern ones protected themselves. The Covid epidemic was past its peak when they reluctantly offered some financial aid. It is a club with first and second class members, we are in the second group. I think this misrepresents what the EU can do/could have done. The EU has no funding stream for such interventions. It requires unanimity of all member states to change its budget. Those countries in trouble in 2010 were suffering from their own economic mismanagement (plus in several cases - most notably Greece - their cheating in order to qualify for Euro membership) and the other member states were uninclined to underwrite their profligacy. Economic measures were eventually agreed, but not as a direct result of the 2008 crash. That merely exposed those who'd been skinny dipping, to quote Warren Buffet's popular phrase of the time. The EU had no role in their predicaments, that had brought that on themselves. The real reason for the bail-outs was to protect the Euro from the impact of a number of countries re-introducing their old currencies in order to devalue. The bail-outs were judged a less damaging option. Are you saying Greece and "other member states" conned the EU ??? ... No way that cant be right Yes, as was widely reported at the time, various countries, most notably Greece, "cooked their books" by concealing substantial debts with the aid of various financial institutions - that most referenced at the time being Goldman Sachs. It was also suggested that the EU were aware this was happening, but were more anxious to ensure that the maximum number of member states joined the €, to give it weight on international markets as a disincentive to speculation. As a new currency, it needed to have, and maintain, "critical mass" in the interests of value stability. It seems to have been a case of "needs must when the devil drives". To that extent, it worked. Crikey who'd have thought it ... The Euro and therefore the EU built on on the back of cooked books and dodgy accountants ... I just cant believe it The Euro yes. But how you get to reason that applies equally to the EU as a whole is beyond me. Where did I say that? I didn't say you did say it Brian ... Its prolly why its "beyond" you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-07-08 12:17 PM Barryd999 - 2020-07-08 12:01 PM And you forget the real reason there were so many legal challenges, MPs objections, resignations and defections, two general elections and the biggest demonstrations the country has ever seen. Why do you think we had never seen the like of all that before? Did you ever seem me complaining or demonstrating about unfair or undemocratic elections before 2016 or anyone else for that matter? No, because the reason for all that was the undemocratic, dishonest and illegal way the entire referendum was carried out and then the continuation of that in the following years leading up to where we are now facing down the barrel of a No deal gun that apparently nobody voted for and nobody wanted. So yes. It killed democracy and divided a nation for probably not just one generation. The fella that finds thuggery , violence and vandalism "funny" gets on his high horse about supposed "dishonest and illegal" tactics during the referendum by I presume only the Leave side ??? ... Hypocrite ... Accept the result and move on FFS , you've wasted years on it hater You have to presume, because Barry did not say that. But then, why would you presume that? Surely, not because unless you presume that, you don't have an argument at all? Which in the end leaves you arguing with your own presumption. I seem to remember we've been here before. Truly Antony, this way lies madness! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-07-08 2:40 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-08 1:08 PM Birdbrain - 2020-07-08 6:32 AM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-07 11:37 AM Birdbrain - 2020-07-06 7:43 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-06 6:56 PM 747 - 2020-07-06 12:34 PM...……………………….So the EU is looking after its member States ..... absolutely hilarious. In the 2008/9 economic downturn they did nothing ... until it looked like the Euro would collapse, along with the EU. Southern European countries were bankrupted while Northern ones protected themselves. The Covid epidemic was past its peak when they reluctantly offered some financial aid. It is a club with first and second class members, we are in the second group. I think this misrepresents what the EU can do/could have done. The EU has no funding stream for such interventions. It requires unanimity of all member states to change its budget. Those countries in trouble in 2010 were suffering from their own economic mismanagement (plus in several cases - most notably Greece - their cheating in order to qualify for Euro membership) and the other member states were uninclined to underwrite their profligacy. Economic measures were eventually agreed, but not as a direct result of the 2008 crash. That merely exposed those who'd been skinny dipping, to quote Warren Buffet's popular phrase of the time. The EU had no role in their predicaments, that had brought that on themselves. The real reason for the bail-outs was to protect the Euro from the impact of a number of countries re-introducing their old currencies in order to devalue. The bail-outs were judged a less damaging option. Are you saying Greece and "other member states" conned the EU ??? ... No way that cant be right Yes, as was widely reported at the time, various countries, most notably Greece, "cooked their books" by concealing substantial debts with the aid of various financial institutions - that most referenced at the time being Goldman Sachs. It was also suggested that the EU were aware this was happening, but were more anxious to ensure that the maximum number of member states joined the €, to give it weight on international markets as a disincentive to speculation. As a new currency, it needed to have, and maintain, "critical mass" in the interests of value stability. It seems to have been a case of "needs must when the devil drives". To that extent, it worked. Crikey who'd have thought it ... The Euro and therefore the EU built on on the back of cooked books and dodgy accountants ... I just cant believe it The Euro yes. But how you get to reason that applies equally to the EU as a whole is beyond me. Where did I say that? I didn't say you did say it Brian ... Its prolly why its "beyond" you In so many words, no. But your post implies I had. You said "The Euro and therefore the EU built on the back of cooked books and dodgy accountants...………...". I had not made, and reject, any such connection. Try answering posts without putting your words into other's mounts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-07-08 1:52 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-08 1:10 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-08 8:38 AM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-07 4:01 PM pepe63 - 2020-07-07 2:02 PM...………………..If the EU is really that bad, that poorly run and that corrupt (and it may well be all of those things, who knows?) then why on earth would leave voters choose to live within it's borders? :-S And why would the other 27 member states all wish to remain a part of it - unless of course, the Brexiters think the other 27 states are also "that bad, that poorly run and that corrupt", in which case they at least show consistent prejudice! :-D Half of that 27 are net recievers ;-) ..........and the other half prolly see paying off the Fourth Reich as a cheaper option than having them invade again >:-) .......... Which is "prollyl" paranoid crap! :-D 1 So no EU countries get more out than they put in? ;-) ......… 2 and all the top jobs in the EU dont have a German in charge? >:-) .......... 3 I rather be paranoid than a German sycophant any day of the week B-) ....... 1 Of course they do. So what? Does every council in the UK receive the same sum in grants from government? 2 Here you go, Dave, a bit of fact :https://tinyurl.com/y5g3q27u So, prejudice rules, KO? :-D 3 See 2 above - it seems your wish was miraculously granted! :-) You're right though, I should probably have said "prolly Germanophobic paranoiac crap" instead of just "prolly paranoid crap". Still, since the result is crap either way, why get picky? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-07-08 3:29 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-08 1:52 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-08 1:10 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-08 8:38 AM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-07 4:01 PM pepe63 - 2020-07-07 2:02 PM...………………..If the EU is really that bad, that poorly run and that corrupt (and it may well be all of those things, who knows?) then why on earth would leave voters choose to live within it's borders? :-S And why would the other 27 member states all wish to remain a part of it - unless of course, the Brexiters think the other 27 states are also "that bad, that poorly run and that corrupt", in which case they at least show consistent prejudice! :-D Half of that 27 are net recievers ;-) ..........and the other half prolly see paying off the Fourth Reich as a cheaper option than having them invade again >:-) .......... Which is "prollyl" paranoid crap! :-D 1 So no EU countries get more out than they put in? ;-) ......… 2 and all the top jobs in the EU dont have a German in charge? >:-) .......... 3 I rather be paranoid than a German sycophant any day of the week B-) ....... 1 Of course they do. So what? Does every council in the UK receive the same sum in grants from government? 2 Here you go, Dave, a bit of fact :https://tinyurl.com/y5g3q27u So, prejudice rules, KO? :-D 3 See 2 above - it seems your wish was miraculously granted! :-) You're right though, I should probably have said "prolly Germanophobic paranoiac crap" instead of just "prolly paranoid crap". Still, since the result is crap either way, why get picky? :-D Oh dear.....only one Gerrrrmun there with the others from France, Spain, Italy and Belgium. (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-07-08 3:29 PM Of course they do. So what? Does every council in the UK receive the same sum in grants from government? 2 Here you go, Dave, a bit of fact :https://tinyurl.com/y5g3q27u So, prejudice rules, KO? :-D 3 See 2 above - it seems your wish was miraculously granted! :-) You're right though, I should probably have said "prolly Germanophobic paranoiac crap" instead of just "prolly paranoid crap". Still, since the result is crap either way, why get picky? :-D Sorry, the above link seems not to work. This looks OK on preview, so I'll try again to see if the html works this time! https://tinyurl.com/y5g3q27u That's better! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Bulletguy - 2020-07-08 3:51 PM............…......Oh dear.....only one Gerrrrmun there with the others from France, Spain, Italy and Belgium. (lol) I know, but keep it to yourself, as the Brexiters hate facts! Dave will be along in a minute to tell us they are really all German, but changed their names to disguise that! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-07-08 2:56 PM Birdbrain - 2020-07-08 2:40 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-08 1:08 PM Birdbrain - 2020-07-08 6:32 AM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-07 11:37 AM Birdbrain - 2020-07-06 7:43 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-06 6:56 PM 747 - 2020-07-06 12:34 PM...……………………….So the EU is looking after its member States ..... absolutely hilarious. In the 2008/9 economic downturn they did nothing ... until it looked like the Euro would collapse, along with the EU. Southern European countries were bankrupted while Northern ones protected themselves. The Covid epidemic was past its peak when they reluctantly offered some financial aid. It is a club with first and second class members, we are in the second group. I think this misrepresents what the EU can do/could have done. The EU has no funding stream for such interventions. It requires unanimity of all member states to change its budget. Those countries in trouble in 2010 were suffering from their own economic mismanagement (plus in several cases - most notably Greece - their cheating in order to qualify for Euro membership) and the other member states were uninclined to underwrite their profligacy. Economic measures were eventually agreed, but not as a direct result of the 2008 crash. That merely exposed those who'd been skinny dipping, to quote Warren Buffet's popular phrase of the time. The EU had no role in their predicaments, that had brought that on themselves. The real reason for the bail-outs was to protect the Euro from the impact of a number of countries re-introducing their old currencies in order to devalue. The bail-outs were judged a less damaging option. Are you saying Greece and "other member states" conned the EU ??? ... No way that cant be right Yes, as was widely reported at the time, various countries, most notably Greece, "cooked their books" by concealing substantial debts with the aid of various financial institutions - that most referenced at the time being Goldman Sachs. It was also suggested that the EU were aware this was happening, but were more anxious to ensure that the maximum number of member states joined the €, to give it weight on international markets as a disincentive to speculation. As a new currency, it needed to have, and maintain, "critical mass" in the interests of value stability. It seems to have been a case of "needs must when the devil drives". To that extent, it worked. Crikey who'd have thought it ... The Euro and therefore the EU built on on the back of cooked books and dodgy accountants ... I just cant believe it The Euro yes. But how you get to reason that applies equally to the EU as a whole is beyond me. Where did I say that? I didn't say you did say it Brian ... Its prolly why its "beyond" you In so many words, no. But your post implies I had. You said "The Euro and therefore the EU built on the back of cooked books and dodgy accountants...………...". I had not made, and reject, any such connection. Try answering posts without putting your words into other's mounts. "In so many words, no" ... Thankyou ... The rest is your usual guff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-07-08 4:58 PM...……………..."In so many words, no" ... Thankyou ... The rest is your usual guff You just didn't understand a word of that, did you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-07-08 5:05 PM Birdbrain - 2020-07-08 4:58 PM...……………..."In so many words, no" ... Thankyou ... The rest is your usual guff You just didn't understand a word of that, did you? Its obviously "beyond me" ... Move on Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon2 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-07-08 11:22 AM teflon2 - 2020-07-07 6:49 PM...……………….So you seem to accept that lies, cheating deceit and fraud is OK when it's expedient. No wonder you wanted to remain in the EU as they are past masters at it. (!) I'm sorry John, but the above is the kind of ludicrous, reductio ad absurdum, comment that makes all sensible discussion impossible. First, the states that engaged in debt hiding did so of their own volition in order to get into the Euro. Second, if the EU were as aware at the time as the rumours suggested (but why am I telling you this, weren't you in UK at the time of the Euro launch?) they had a choice: either pull the Euro launch, launch in the midst of an international row over the exclusion of the "dodgy" states - of which there were several, not just Greece, which would itself have prejudiced confidence in the fledgling currency - or let them in and launch anyway in the hope that time, and events, would allow the Euro to become accepted internationally as a safely tradeable currency. For political reasons, they chose the latter. It is called realpolitik: it is what politicians do when confronted with unpalatable truths. If you really think that other politicians, from other countries, faced with similarly awkward decisions, behave any differently, you must have spent your life in a hermetically sealed echo chamber. :-D Are you really trying to argue that politics in other EU countries is conducted in a less honest, more corrupt, environment than our own, or just that when those politicians become involved at EU level they become corrupted, dishonest, actors?. Just look back at what our own politicians have told us about the EEC/EU since we joined, and then check those statements against what the record shows. You will find copious instances of UK ministers, more than a handful of MEPs, and any number of journalists who, to coin a phrase, were "economical with la verité". The EU, being a confederation of (at that time - 1995) 11 states, with a further three about to join, just made the political processes more fraught, so the realpolitik more necessary to assist getting their previously agreed objectives implemented. Do you really think the UK is exempt from this? So why should the EU have to become this unique paragon of virtue? To make omelettes, one must break eggs. It is reality. That's alright Brian no need to apologise. You seem to have become over exited just because I pointed out that you closing comment looked as though you felt that the behavior that you pointed out was acceptable. I agree many political systems have the propensity for underhand and dishonest behavior but we do not have to be embroiled in the quagmire of the EU thus we are involved in one less organisation that is corrupted by it. One question why do you have to resort to a different language to make a comment that is easily given in the Queens English does it somehow empower you (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 teflon2 - 2020-07-08 6:30 PM...………………….One question why do you have to resort to a different language to make a comment that is easily given in the Queens English does it somehow empower you (?) AFAIK it is a fairly well established and common expression. No, I don't expect any empowerment from it, it just came to mind as it neatly captures the sentiment I was trying to convey. Its a bit like using "schadenfreude" instead of trying to capture its meaning in English. It was just a case of whatever came to mind at the time. Is the realpolitik (sorry another import!) acceptable? I think it has to be accepted, as the practise is as old as politics itself. It is mostly a tactic to smooth difficult issues to fruition, so that all sides can claim a kind of "win" without loss of face. To that extent I think it was justified as, arguably, it worked for the two years until the European debt crisis made it manifest in 2010, by which time the Euro had more or less earned its spurs. Didn't solve the underlying problem, of course, but I think it debatable whether the Euro would exist today had that risk not been taken, and their objective was the launch of the Euro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-07-08 4:57 PM Bulletguy - 2020-07-08 3:51 PM............…......Oh dear.....only one Gerrrrmun there with the others from France, Spain, Italy and Belgium. (lol) I know, but keep it to yourself, as the Brexiters hate facts! Dave will be along in a minute to tell us they are really all German, but changed their names to disguise that! :-D He'll be researching the family history of each to see if he can find a whiff of Gerrrmun anywhere. If any of 'em drive a Merc....that'll be enough. *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-07-08 3:29 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-08 1:52 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-08 1:10 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-08 8:38 AM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-07 4:01 PM pepe63 - 2020-07-07 2:02 PM...………………..If the EU is really that bad, that poorly run and that corrupt (and it may well be all of those things, who knows?) then why on earth would leave voters choose to live within it's borders? :-S And why would the other 27 member states all wish to remain a part of it - unless of course, the Brexiters think the other 27 states are also "that bad, that poorly run and that corrupt", in which case they at least show consistent prejudice! :-D Half of that 27 are net recievers ;-) ..........and the other half prolly see paying off the Fourth Reich as a cheaper option than having them invade again >:-) .......... Which is "prollyl" paranoid crap! :-D 1 So no EU countries get more out than they put in? ;-) ......… 2 and all the top jobs in the EU dont have a German in charge? >:-) .......... 3 I rather be paranoid than a German sycophant any day of the week B-) ....... 1 Of course they do. So what? Does every council in the UK receive the same sum in grants from government? 2 Here you go, Dave, a bit of fact :https://tinyurl.com/y5g3q27u So, prejudice rules, KO? :-D 3 See 2 above - it seems your wish was miraculously granted! :-) You're right though, I should probably have said "prolly Germanophobic paranoiac crap" instead of just "prolly paranoid crap". Still, since the result is crap either way, why get picky? :-D Kinda ironic how every Loony Liberal Lefty and his dog is slagging of Britain for having "HAD" an empire ;-) ....... Yet are happy to ignore the one being built under their noses by the Fourth Reich? *-) .......... Empire | Definition of Empire at Dictionary.com www.dictionary.com/browse/empire noun a group of nations or peoples ruled over by an emperor, empress, or other powerful sovereign or+++ government:+++ usually a territory of greater extent than a kingdom, as the former British Empire, French Empire, Russian Empire, Byzantine Empire, or Roman Empire. a government under an emperor or empress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 No sh1t Sherlock! https://www.businessinsider.com/leaked-liz-truss-letter-boris-johnson-brexit-border-plans-concerns-risks-2020-7?r=US&IR=T I am seeing a lot of this at the moment. Brexiteers realising stuff we have been telling them for years. Its like they have been in some kind of timewarp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-07-09 10:52 AM No sh1t Sherlock! https://www.businessinsider.com/leaked-liz-truss-letter-boris-johnson-brexit-border-plans-concerns-risks-2020-7?r=US&IR=T I am seeing a lot of this at the moment. Brexiteers realising stuff we have been telling them for years. Its like they have been in some kind of timewarp. Youve spoke to loads of folk that changed their minds n'all ... Chuckle ... Dream on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-07-09 10:52 AM No sh1t Sherlock! https://www.businessinsider.com/leaked-liz-truss-letter-boris-johnson-brexit-border-plans-concerns-risks-2020-7?r=US&IR=T I am seeing a lot of this at the moment. Brexiteers realising stuff we have been telling them for years. Its like they have been in some kind of timewarp. You mean we will get illegal immigrants trying to sneak into the UK? 8-) ......... No sh1t Sherlock! (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-07-09 9:14 AM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-08 3:29 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-08 1:52 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-08 1:10 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-08 8:38 AM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-07 4:01 PM pepe63 - 2020-07-07 2:02 PM...………………..If the EU is really that bad, that poorly run and that corrupt (and it may well be all of those things, who knows?) then why on earth would leave voters choose to live within it's borders? :-S And why would the other 27 member states all wish to remain a part of it - unless of course, the Brexiters think the other 27 states are also "that bad, that poorly run and that corrupt", in which case they at least show consistent prejudice! :-D Half of that 27 are net recievers ;-) ..........and the other half prolly see paying off the Fourth Reich as a cheaper option than having them invade again >:-) .......... Which is "prollyl" paranoid crap! :-D 1 So no EU countries get more out than they put in? ;-) ......… 2 and all the top jobs in the EU dont have a German in charge? >:-) .......... 3 I rather be paranoid than a German sycophant any day of the week B-) ....... 1 Of course they do. So what? Does every council in the UK receive the same sum in grants from government? 2 Here you go, Dave, a bit of fact :https://tinyurl.com/y5g3q27u So, prejudice rules, KO? :-D 3 See 2 above - it seems your wish was miraculously granted! :-) You're right though, I should probably have said "prolly Germanophobic paranoiac crap" instead of just "prolly paranoid crap". Still, since the result is crap either way, why get picky? :-D Kinda ironic how every Loony Liberal Lefty and his dog is slagging of Britain for having "HAD" an empire ;-) ....... Yet are happy to ignore the one being built under their noses by the Fourth Reich? *-) .......... Empire | Definition of Empire at Dictionary.com www.dictionary.com/browse/empire noun a group of nations or peoples ruled over by an emperor, empress, or other powerful sovereign or+++ government:+++ usually a territory of greater extent than a kingdom, as the former British Empire, French Empire, Russian Empire, Byzantine Empire, or Roman Empire. a government under an emperor or empress. Can you point to where, in the EU, that "emperor, empress, or other powerful sovereign or government" actually resides? It's all in your paranoid head, I promise. You don't, and seemingly never have, understood what the EU is or how it functions, so you've invented some malevolent Prince of Darkness in its place - apparently because it includes Germany. But why on earth do you have this crippling hang-up with Germany? Is it all to do with the World Cup? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-07-09 12:45 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-09 9:14 AM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-08 3:29 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-08 1:52 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-08 1:10 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-08 8:38 AM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-07 4:01 PM pepe63 - 2020-07-07 2:02 PM...………………..If the EU is really that bad, that poorly run and that corrupt (and it may well be all of those things, who knows?) then why on earth would leave voters choose to live within it's borders? :-S And why would the other 27 member states all wish to remain a part of it - unless of course, the Brexiters think the other 27 states are also "that bad, that poorly run and that corrupt", in which case they at least show consistent prejudice! :-D Half of that 27 are net recievers ;-) ..........and the other half prolly see paying off the Fourth Reich as a cheaper option than having them invade again >:-) .......... Which is "prollyl" paranoid crap! :-D 1 So no EU countries get more out than they put in? ;-) ......… 2 and all the top jobs in the EU dont have a German in charge? >:-) .......... 3 I rather be paranoid than a German sycophant any day of the week B-) ....... 1 Of course they do. So what? Does every council in the UK receive the same sum in grants from government? 2 Here you go, Dave, a bit of fact :https://tinyurl.com/y5g3q27u So, prejudice rules, KO? :-D 3 See 2 above - it seems your wish was miraculously granted! :-) You're right though, I should probably have said "prolly Germanophobic paranoiac crap" instead of just "prolly paranoid crap". Still, since the result is crap either way, why get picky? :-D Kinda ironic how every Loony Liberal Lefty and his dog is slagging of Britain for having "HAD" an empire ;-) ....... Yet are happy to ignore the one being built under their noses by the Fourth Reich? *-) .......... Empire | Definition of Empire at Dictionary.com www.dictionary.com/browse/empire noun a group of nations or peoples ruled over by an emperor, empress, or other powerful sovereign or+++ government:+++ usually a territory of greater extent than a kingdom, as the former British Empire, French Empire, Russian Empire, Byzantine Empire, or Roman Empire. a government under an emperor or empress. Can you point to where, in the EU, that "emperor, empress, or other powerful sovereign or government" actually resides? It's all in your paranoid head, I promise. You don't, and seemingly never have, understood what the EU is or how it functions, so you've invented some malevolent Prince of Darkness in its place - apparently because it includes Germany. But why on earth do you have this crippling hang-up with Germany? Is it all to do with the World Cup? :-D It's funny how that Common Market we joined is slowly morphing into the United Federalist states of the Fourth Reich innit? ;-) ........... Mrs Merkel maybe a benign Empress.........But she ain't going to be in charge forever is she? *-) ........ Unfortunately she's gonna have to start spending her own dosh to prop up her European Empire from the 1/1/2021 B-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-07-09 12:56 PM ..........................It's funny how that Common Market we joined is slowly morphing into the United Federalist states of the Fourth Reich innit? ;-) ........... Mrs Merkel maybe a benign Empress.........But she ain't going to be in charge forever is she? *-) ........ Unfortunately she's gonna have to start spending her own dosh to prop up her European Empire from the 1/1/2021 B-) ......… First, you didn't understand even then, when you couldn't vote, what that thing you think was a "Common Market" actually was, did you? It never was that. Merkel is no Empress. If she were, she would be there forever. So, where is your Empress? She was a girl who grew up in eastern Germany (the DDR), a USSR satellite state. She is the elected Chancellor of Germany, which is the equivalent of UK PM. So, using the same logic, Boris is an Emperor? Germany already contributes more into the EU than any other country ever has, and gets back less that it contributes. So nothing changes there, except that Germany's contribution will rise, along with those of the other net contributors, or the benefits to the net gainers will have to fall, which probably means prices will rise in Spain! Oops! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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