When will we see the benefits?

[jumpstart]

Whatever his reasons are for living in France his points on the uselessness of the EU are valid. I voted to leave but didn’t do it for some instant gratification,I knew this is a long term viewpoint. Funding low wage countries to make their economy more efficient and competitive with other EU countries only increases their wages to even the standard,at our cost. The bureaucratic infighting in the EU will and is pulling it apart.

 

[John52]

Its all irrelevant when the immigrants are illegal enticed by England's black economy - shown again by the garment workers in Leicester.

We need to sort out the black economy.

But immigration drives down wages, and drives up housing costs, both of which seems to suit the Landlord dominated Government.

So they have long treated illegal immigration in a half-hearted manner, preferring to blame it on the EU like the rest of their own failings. And the Tory dominated press helped them get away with it.

[Guest pelmetman]

John52 - 2020-07-06 7:19 AM

 

Its all irrelevant when the immigrants are illegal enticed by England's black economy - shown again by the garment workers in Leicester.

We need to sort out the black economy.

But immigration drives down wages, and drives up housing costs, both of which seems to suit the Landlord dominated Government.

So they have long treated illegal immigration in a half-hearted manner, preferring to blame it on the EU like the rest of their own failings. And the Tory dominated press helped them get away with it.

 

So as per usual you ignore our and the EU's Loony Lefty Liberal justice systems that prevent us from kicking out illegal immigrants, and blame Boris and the Tories instead *-) ............

 

 

 

 

[Barryd999]

Nicepix - 2020-07-05 7:23 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2020-07-05 7:43 PM

 

Nicepix - 2020-07-05 4:13 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2020-07-05 3:41 PM

 

Nicepix - 2020-07-05 12:01 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2020-07-05 10:02 AM

 

StuartO - 2020-07-05 7:27 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2020-07-04 10:41 PM .... Just about every economist reckons the costs of leaving the EU will far outweigh the tiny amount we currently pay in. .....

 

When people say things like that they deprive themselves of any credibility in the argument they are putting forward.

 

What evidence can you possibly have for such a fanciful claim? How can you possibly know what "just about every economist" reckons?

 

If you want to convince people who are not already on your bandwagon, you will have to do a lot better than spout nonesense like that.

 

Stuart, we are long past the time of producing links and evidence for such things. Where have you been for the past four years? Its well known that the majority of Financial experts and economists agree that. Its already happened. We went from the top of the leader board to the bottom in short shrift just by voting for Brexit already losing more off the economy than we pay in. Thats a fact. All of it has been posted on here over the past four years time and time again.

 

Brexiteers rant on about it not being about the money yet they are obsessed with that piddling amount we pay in as members. It galls them to death that we hand over large (to them) sums of money to the EU yet fail to forget that for every pound we put in we get ten back in terms of investment, jobs, trade, etc and thats without taking into account the nice stuff like free movement of people, environmental protections, Digital single market etc etc.

 

I dont need to convince anyone though. You won, its over (For now at least). You do however need to now make sure you deliver this fantastic future outside of Europe we were promised. Good luck with that.

 

So you answer a comment about lack of evidence by layering on even more unevidenced statements. *-)

 

When you say that the UK gets ten pounds for every pound back that they put in, how can you evidence that given the enormous deficit in trade? Where does that, frankly ridiculous statement come from?

 

As for environmental protections; are you saying that the UK Government is not capable of managing its own environmental protection policies? And why is Freedom of Movement a benefit to the UK?

 

Come on now. Let us hear how you come about those statements because simply saying that the facts have been posted on here for years every time you are placed on the spot is wearing a bit thin.

 

The ten pounds for every pound was part of the "Britain Stronger in Europe" campaign and ultimately is a bit of a best guess but a pretty accurate one. A full explanation here. https://medium.com/im-trying-to-fact-check-brexit/fact-checking-remain-do-we-get-10-for-every-1-we-put-into-the-eu-62085b8d7cb0 There isnt an enormous deficit in trade though. We buy in more than we export but its not an enormous gap. Either way there is little doubt we get back way more than we pay in. At the time when this evidence was produced the stock answer from Brexiteers was "its not all about the money" but they soon forget about that as its clearly a big factor.

 

So we did we get more back than we put in but the Brexit vote has seen a double Whammy as we are losing more off the economy than we ever put in by a country mile as well as losing all the benefits of membership that led to that claim.

 

Environmental protections, green issues, workers rights, human rights and animal welfare are all out of the window, of course they are. There is plenty of evidence already. The workers rights issue was one of the main concerns of Labour and the Lib Dems and partly responsible for the huge delay in Brexit getting through. The Brexiteer Tories simply cannot be trusted. Everyone should know that by now.

 

As for Freedom of movement, its a massive benefit. We know now that EU workers make a huge contribution to both the economy and the country as a whole. More than none EU workers and much more than native Brit workers. We have already seen the damage before we leave with fruit now rotting in the fields and a huge drop in applications (Down 96%) from EU nurses and NHS staff. They would have been useful recently huh? The right to work, live, study and of course travel unrestricted across Europe is fantastic. The only reason Brexiteers see it as a dirty word is some of them just dont like funny foreigners and were convinced by the the likes of Farage, The Daily Mail and The Express over twenty years that EU immigrants were all spongers and a drain on our services when in fact the opposite is true it turns out.

 

You are not placing me on the spot by the way. This should all be stuff anyone who hasn't had their head in the sand for four years should know without having to provide evidence anymore. The time for all that is over anyway. Its up to you and your Brexit government to deliver what you promised.

 

First the £10 for £1 issue. The headline says: ..."It’s an estimate based on a study, not solid fact,".... Not solid fact. We have already seen how accurate these forecasts are (not.)

 

Second the trade deficit: "The UK had an overall trade deficit of -£72 billion with the EU in 2019. A surplus of £23 billion on trade in services was outweighed by a deficit of -£95 billion on trade in goods. The UK had a trade surplus of £46 billion with non-EU countries. ..." So £95 billion is a small amount is it?

 

Third: Freedom of Movement. Are you aware that EU countries also have a shortage of low skilled labour and farmers in Germany cannot recruit enough farm labourers? So Freedom of Movement isn't solving that issue even before COVID.

"Source: Xinhua 2018-05-23 02:50:26

 

BERLIN, May 22 (Xinhua) -- German farmers are increasingly suffering from a shortage of seasonal workers who traditionally come from eastern Europe during harvest periods, the German Association of Agricultural Employers (GLFA) warned on Tuesday.

 

GLFA president Burkhard Moeller told press that strong economic growth in countries like Romania and Poland also meant that fewer people were attracted by the prospect of short-term jobs in German agriculture. "Looking forward, we see problems," Moeller said.

 

In 2016, a total of 286,000 seasonal migrants came to Germany to assist farmers during the harvest of popular consumer crops such as strawberries, asparagus and grapes.

 

In order to prevent resulting logistical bottlenecks from posing a threat to agricultural production the future, the GLFA demanded easier access to seasonal labor in the war-torn country of Ukraine."

 

Healthcare; Taken from 2010 "By 2020 Europe may be short of two million healthcare workers

Today, healthcare professions make up ten percent Europe’s workforce. The EU Commission calculates dramatic shortages in healthcare provision in the next decade unless countermeasures are taken now. " THe current situation throughout Europe is critical despite FoM.

 

So, why not bin the EU's useless FoM rules and welcome labour from outside the EU? Not exactly rocket science.

 

Environmental and worker's rights issues: You are merely speculating the worst case scenario. The UK has better worker's rights than most of the EU member countries and are not lacking in environmental regulations. You are trying to spread scare stories based on your own personal fears - nothing else.

 

As you might by now realise I haven't got my head in the sand and neither did I not make a point of financial gain being a benefit for Brexit. The UK has the worst deal of any EU member country. It makes financial, political and legal sense to leave. No longer can MPs hide behind the "EU Policy" or "EU Law" excuses and no longer will the UK be paying £ billions into the EU for it to be given out to other countries so they can spend that money on German, French, Dutch and Italian goods. No more paying Phillips and Bosch over the odds for their goods when Matsui and Hitachi can provide better goods for less. There are far more reasons to leave than to stay. If you got your own head from up your rear end you might actually see that.

 

Why bother plagiarising other peoples "opinions", just post the link. http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-05/23/c_137198680.htm

 

So the Brexiteers are worried about Germans not getting enough workers now. Well I go to the bottom of our stairs! (lol) If you read the link I posted regarding the £10 for £1 it was scrutinised by the CBI and the summary is its a fair assumption. Its impossible to quote facts on something like this down to the nearest pound but for sure its a positive rather than a negative which is why as I said from the top of this the vast majority of economists would agree.

 

That deficit is not much in the great scheme of things no. Whats worrying though is how you think we will address that deficit by cutting ourselves off from the world and putting barriers to trade up. Even the Brexiteers own economists predict Brexit will be the end of whats left of manufacturing and the bulk of our economy is services and the main reason for that is our gateway into the Single market. So pray do tell, what will we be flogging to who in this brave new world?

 

Singapore on Thames I suspect. That wont be much good if you are one of the many who work in Automotive or live in the North East which is the only net export manufacturer in the country and stands to be the hardest hit by any kind of Brexit.

 

I included the source of the quote. It is in the line above the word BERLIN "Source: Xinhua 2018-05-23 02:50:26"

 

You are trying so hard to discredit me that you can't see the facts before your eyes. *-)

 

Again and again you post speculation with no evidence behind them, just opinions or speculation that suit your cause whilst ignoring any opinions that contradict them. "Cutting off from the World"? How many countries are part of the WTO? I'll bet it is quite a few more than there are in the EU. (lol) You really are blind to the bigger picture.

 

Look around you. The EU is a protectionist self-serving monolith that does the UK no favours. Their attitude to the UK's decision is nothing short of scandulous. They are acting like some American Mafia trying to bully and browbeat a former member country to abide by their ways. The UK is their biggest market. Can you honestly see them cutting off free trade that suits them 2:1 after losing the UK's annual contributions?

 

And I'm not worried about the Germans losing workers. They will overcome that. In fact they are flying in thousands of Bulgarians and Romanians to pick crops on short term contracts. But, again you miss the bigger picture. Even with FoM rich countries cannot get enough cheap labour from within the EU and EU rules prevent member states from recruiting from outside the EU. But why let facts get in the way of your opinions?

 

I am not trying to discredit you, you are doing a good job of that yourself. (lol)

 

There are 164 countries in the WTO but not a single country trades solely on WTO membership. Pretty much everyone is part of some kind of trading bloc.

 

I am sure the EU does not want to lose the trade its members have with the UK or make it difficult but as Bullet has pointed out to you it has to protect its members one of which it seems is a country you actually now live in. Ferkin Ell! 8-)

 

This was the big gamble of you Brexiteers. You assumed the EU would just cave because the UK is somehow "Special" but as a total we only amount to (I Think without looking) 8% of the EU 27's trade. Whereas nearly half of ours is with the EU 27. Let that sink in. I think its great that they are protecting and supporting their members. We chose to go rogue and so far it seems your gamble that they need us more than we need them has gone tits up. Well maybe not so much for you as you dont even fecking live here and are yourself an immigrant living in France thanks to Free movement of people. You really couldnt make that one up.

[Brian Kirby]

jumpstart - 2020-07-06 7:12 AM...………….. Funding low wage countries to make their economy more efficient and competitive with other EU countries only increases their wages to even the standard,at our cost.

Are you arguing that the above logic will have different results if instead we trade with non-EU countries? That, I thought, was the whole point of both the EU and the WTO.

 

As those low wage countries become high wage countries, they will begin buying more from the rest of the world, so that everyone benefits.

 

That is the logical basis on which the EEC/EU was founded. So, if the same logic is to apply to the rest of the world, where it is to be considered good, why is it not good when applied to the EU, as you seem to be arguing?

[pepe63xnotuse]

Whilst those who voted to leave would have done so for a number of reasons, please lets not pretend that the "main" reason that Mr/Mrs Average Brexiteer- in- the- street voted as he/she did , was anything to do with "trade deals", and who we were/weren't able to have them with.... *-)

 

No, it was clear from the subject matter in the main media, and the "talk" on social media (very much including this forum) that at the time it wasn't about the above, it was about all those funny "Johnnie Foreigner" types who were supposedly "..comin' ova 'ere..takin' our jobs..cloggin' up our NHS..and scroungin' our benefits.." etc etc.

 

Also for some, the fact that we (the UK) were having to sit around a table with the aforementioned Johnnie Foreigners' representatives, instead of at the head of it, was never ever going to sit well...

 

:-S

[Barryd999]

pepe63 - 2020-07-06 11:54 AM

 

Whilst those who voted to leave would have done so for a number of reasons, please lets not pretend that the "main" reason that Mr/Mrs Average Brexiteer- in- the- street voted as he/she did , was anything to do with "trade deals", and who we were/weren't able to have them with.... *-)

 

No, it was clear from the subject matter in the main media, and the "talk" on social media (very much including this forum) that at the time it wasn't about the above, it was about all those funny "Johnnie Foreigner" types who were supposedly "..comin' ova 'ere..takin' our jobs..cloggin' up our NHS..and scroungin' our benefits.." etc etc.

 

Also for some, the fact that we (the UK) were having to sit around a table with the aforementioned Johnnie Foreigners' representatives, instead of at the head of it, was never ever going to sit well...

 

:-S

 

Of course it was exactly that. They might not be too chuffed to hear then that while immigration from the EU is down massively none EU immigration has risen to the highest level since records began. I hope they all move in next door to Nigel Farage.

 

 

[747]

Oh bulletguy, you are so funny. :D

 

This is from your earlier post:

 

 

We did ourselves no favours by constant cherry picking whatever we wanted behaving like little colonialists who still believed we ruled an Empire. Far from 'bullying' and 'browbeating', that 'self serving protectionist monolith' you describe is what's looking after the interests of it's member states.....one of which you've chosen to reside in! We cancelled our club membership so why should the 'club' bow to our wishes and interests? We once had a seat at the table until 37% of the electorate chose to give it up so now the time has come for them to deliver on their promises....and so far it's not going too well. They've got an awful lot of promises to meet.

 

So the EU is looking after its member States ..... absolutely hilarious. In the 2008/9 economic downturn they did nothing ... until it looked like the Euro would collapse, along with the EU. Southern European countries were bankrupted while Northern ones protected themselves. The Covid epidemic was past its peak when they reluctantly offered some financial aid. It is a club with first and second class members, we are in the second group.

 

[Brian Kirby]

pepe63 - 2020-07-06 11:54 AM

 

Whilst those who voted to leave would have done so for a number of reasons, please lets not pretend that the "main" reason that Mr/Mrs Average Brexiteer- in- the- street voted as he/she did , was anything to do with "trade deals", and who we were/weren't able to have them with.... *-)

 

No, it was clear from the subject matter in the main media, and the "talk" on social media (very much including this forum) that at the time it wasn't about the above, it was about all those funny "Johnnie Foreigner" types who were supposedly "..comin' ova 'ere..takin' our jobs..cloggin' up our NHS..and scroungin' our benefits.." etc etc.

 

Also for some, the fact that we (the UK) were having to sit around a table with the aforementioned Johnnie Foreigners' representatives, instead of at the head of it, was never ever going to sit well... :-S

Plus, of course, those mythic figures we were "forced" to pay to the EU for the privilege. (lol)

[Bulletguy]

pepe63 - 2020-07-06 11:54 AM

 

Whilst those who voted to leave would have done so for a number of reasons, please lets not pretend that the "main" reason that Mr/Mrs Average Brexiteer- in- the- street voted as he/she did , was anything to do with "trade deals", and who we were/weren't able to have them with.... *-)

 

No, it was clear from the subject matter in the main media, and the "talk" on social media (very much including this forum) that at the time it wasn't about the above, it was about all those funny "Johnnie Foreigner" types who were supposedly "..comin' ova 'ere..takin' our jobs..cloggin' up our NHS..and scroungin' our benefits.." etc etc.

 

Also for some, the fact that we (the UK) were having to sit around a table with the aforementioned Johnnie Foreigners' representatives, instead of at the head of it, was never ever going to sit well...

 

:-S

Totally spot on Pepe and even Brexits chief architect Cummings would agree with you on that as he openly admitted in the blog he wrote post referendum, immigration, the NHS £350m slogan and FoM was the three key issues he used. And it worked. Brexiters were more fussed about 'funny foreigners' and the loss of fta's meant nothing as Johnson had told everyone "there is no plan for no deal because we're going to get a great deal"!

 

And who can forget the Barnsley Brexiteer?

*-)

 

I remember reading a cracking post from an fm on another forum, the thread topic of which was "Foreign folk stealing OUR jobs".....and this particular fm posted, "well they've been doing an excellent job of 'stealing' my nephews job as the bone idle sod has never done a days work since leaving school 15 years ago and has no intention of getting a job".

[Barryd999]

I must say its terrific to have a good old fashioned Brexit thread on here again. Its like the good old days!

 

It looks like there really was a magic money tree after all though looking at Johnsons money spaffing spree. Here are some startling figures of the cost of Brexit and this was before the economy collapsed further due to the Covid Pandemic.

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-will-cost-uk-more-than-total-payments-to-eu-2020-1?IR=T

 

I gather we are all gonna get £500 vouchers next to spaff on anything we like! Whats everyone getting? Mine will either go on expensive French Cheese and Scotch or Expensive French cheese and Scotch.

[jumpstart]

Brian Kirby - 2020-07-06 11:07 AM

 

jumpstart - 2020-07-06 7:12 AM...………….. Funding low wage countries to make their economy more efficient and competitive with other EU countries only increases their wages to even the standard,at our cost.

Are you arguing that the above logic will have different results if instead we trade with non-EU countries? That, I thought, was the whole point of both the EU and the WTO.

 

As those low wage countries become high wage countries, they will begin buying more from the rest of the world, so that everyone benefits.

 

That is the logical basis on which the EEC/EU was founded. So, if the same logic is to apply to the rest of the world, where it is to be considered good, why is it not good when applied to the EU, as you seem to be arguing?

 

No

Yes to a certain extent I agree,

No, Common market free trade agreement.

[jumpstart]

pepe63 - 2020-07-06 11:54 AM

 

Whilst those who voted to leave would have done so for a number of reasons, please lets not pretend that the "main" reason that Mr/Mrs Average Brexiteer- in- the- street voted as he/she did , was anything to do with "trade deals", and who we were/weren't able to have them with.... *-)

 

No, it was clear from the subject matter in the main media, and the "talk" on social media (very much including this forum) that at the time it wasn't about the above, it was about all those funny "Johnnie Foreigner" types who were supposedly "..comin' ova 'ere..takin' our jobs..cloggin' up our NHS..and scroungin' our benefits.." etc etc.

 

Also for some, the fact that we (the UK) were having to sit around a table with the aforementioned Johnnie Foreigners' representatives, instead of at the head of it, was never ever going to sit well...

 

:-S

 

I know it’s fashionable to say that was all about “foreigners” but funnily enough trade and how the EU fails it’s citizens was what people voted on.

[Barryd999]

jumpstart - 2020-07-06 5:30 PM

 

pepe63 - 2020-07-06 11:54 AM

 

Whilst those who voted to leave would have done so for a number of reasons, please lets not pretend that the "main" reason that Mr/Mrs Average Brexiteer- in- the- street voted as he/she did , was anything to do with "trade deals", and who we were/weren't able to have them with.... *-)

 

No, it was clear from the subject matter in the main media, and the "talk" on social media (very much including this forum) that at the time it wasn't about the above, it was about all those funny "Johnnie Foreigner" types who were supposedly "..comin' ova 'ere..takin' our jobs..cloggin' up our NHS..and scroungin' our benefits.." etc etc.

 

Also for some, the fact that we (the UK) were having to sit around a table with the aforementioned Johnnie Foreigners' representatives, instead of at the head of it, was never ever going to sit well...

 

:-S

 

I know it’s fashionable to say that was all about “foreigners” but funnily enough trade and how the EU fails it’s citizens was what people voted on.

 

That might have been your reasons but it certainly wasnt the reasons most people voted for Brexit.

 

We didnt exactly fail either during our membership of the EU. We went from the sick man of Europe when we joined to the 5th largest economy in the world and one of the big hitters within the EU. There was a load of horses**t about how we could build a raft of trade deals better than what we have now but it was exactly that, horses**t. We couldnt negotiate ourselves out of a wet paper bag. We have no trade negotiators for a start. Where are they now? The original Brexit team. Davis etc. All fired or left or cast aside because they were useless or had simply had enough.

 

I certainly do not feel like the EU has failed me as a citizen or the rest of Europe. Its not perfect thats for sure but nothing is. Our own government and parliamentary system is far from perfect but just think how great Europe is now. How its so easy to travel, work, live. How the place is generally civilised, prosperous, safe, clean and has great standards from food to drinking water to trade and goods, citizens rights, data protection, workers rights. The list goes on.

 

We are swapping all that to put it all in the hands of Boris Johnson. What could possibly go wrong? 8-)

[pepe63xnotuse]

jumpstart - 2020-07-06 5:30 PM

 

pepe63 - 2020-07-06 11:54 AM

 

Whilst those who voted to leave would have done so for a number of reasons, please lets not pretend that the "main" reason that Mr/Mrs Average Brexiteer- in- the- street voted as he/she did , was anything to do with "trade deals", and who we were/weren't able to have them with.... *-)

 

No, it was clear from the subject matter in the main media, and the "talk" on social media (very much including this forum) that at the time it wasn't about the above, it was about all those funny "Johnnie Foreigner" types who were supposedly "..comin' ova 'ere..takin' our jobs..cloggin' up our NHS..and scroungin' our benefits.." etc etc.

 

Also for some, the fact that we (the UK) were having to sit around a table with the aforementioned Johnnie Foreigners' representatives, instead of at the head of it, was never ever going to sit well...

 

:-S

 

I know it’s fashionable to say that was all about “foreigners” but funnily enough trade and how the EU fails it’s citizens was what people voted on.

 

What? all of them?.... yeah,yeah 'cause it was....

 

So...the UK voted out because the EU "...failed it's citizens..."? Behave yourself! (lol) (lol)

[spospe]

I asked, when will we see the benefits?

 

I mean unambiguous benefits, ones that can only be ascribed to leaving the EU.

 

When?

[jumpstart]

Barryd999 - 2020-07-06 2:06 PM

 

I must say its terrific to have a good old fashioned Brexit thread on here again. Its like the good old days!

 

It looks like there really was a magic money tree after all though looking at Johnsons money spaffing spree. Here are some startling figures of the cost of Brexit and this was before the economy collapsed further due to the Covid Pandemic.

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-will-cost-uk-more-than-total-payments-to-eu-2020-1?IR=T

 

I gather we are all gonna get £500 vouchers next to spaff on anything we like! Whats everyone getting? Mine will either go on expensive French Cheese and Scotch or Expensive French cheese and Scotch.

 

Really,is going over all this again therapeutic for you.

[jumpstart]

spospe - 2020-07-06 5:53 PM

 

I asked, when will we see the benefits?

 

I mean unambiguous benefits, ones that can only be ascribed to leaving the EU.

 

When?

 

Tomorrow.

[Brian Kirby]

spospe - 2020-07-06 5:53 PM

I asked, when will we see the benefits?

I mean unambiguous benefits, ones that can only be ascribed to leaving the EU.

When?

Which is an excellent question. I would say never, because the actual economic impacts from Brexit will be almost impossible to identify through the fog of the much greater economic impacts that will be attributed to Covid-19.

 

Who will arbitrate which impact should be attributed to which factor? As the government has championed Brexit, it is hardly likely to suddenly pop up and say that of all the economic knocks we have suffered, 10% or whatever, are the result of Brexit. Ditto the Brexiters.

 

Those who voted to remain, OTOH, will always harbour the suspicion that the costs of Brexit have been subsumed invisibly into the economic impacts from Covid-19. Logically, whatever economic impact Brexit may have had on the UK economy would have been far less than that of Covid-19.

 

The only issue that may stick is that the Covid-19 recovery is expected to be relatively quick, because its fundamental cause was not of economic origin, whereas even Rees-Mogg was conceding that he thought the impacts from Brexit would take several decades to work through.

 

If that lag proves as expected, it will become very difficult to sustain an argument that delays to cross Channel trade resulting from post Brexit changes to customs arrangements are the consequence of Covid-19. I fully expect all else to be conveniently lost to Covid-19.

 

I'd say this will divide the UK for the next generation, and for many longer than that. The only respite will come if Brexit turns out to be a resounding success, and Britain overtakes the per capita GDP of every other EU country. I don't expect to be alive to see that! :-(

[Brian Kirby]

jumpstart - 2020-07-06 5:27 PM

Brian Kirby - 2020-07-06 11:07 AM

jumpstart - 2020-07-06 7:12 AM...………….. Funding low wage countries to make their economy more efficient and competitive with other EU countries only increases their wages to even the standard,at our cost.

Are you arguing that the above logic will have different results if instead we trade with non-EU countries? That, I thought, was the whole point of both the EU and the WTO.

As those low wage countries become high wage countries, they will begin buying more from the rest of the world, so that everyone benefits.

That is the logical basis on which the EEC/EU was founded. So, if the same logic is to apply to the rest of the world, where it is to be considered good, why is it not good when applied to the EU, as you seem to be arguing?

No

Yes to a certain extent I agree,

No, Common market free trade agreement.

But what trade will benefit from that? We already trade tariff free with the other EU states, and the result remains, just as it as it was before we joined, that we import more goods from them than we sell to them. Who gains?

[Brian Kirby]

747 - 2020-07-06 12:34 PM...……………………….So the EU is looking after its member States ..... absolutely hilarious. In the 2008/9 economic downturn they did nothing ... until it looked like the Euro would collapse, along with the EU. Southern European countries were bankrupted while Northern ones protected themselves. The Covid epidemic was past its peak when they reluctantly offered some financial aid. It is a club with first and second class members, we are in the second group.

I think this misrepresents what the EU can do/could have done. The EU has no funding stream for such interventions. It requires unanimity of all member states to change its budget.

 

Those countries in trouble in 2010 were suffering from their own economic mismanagement (plus in several cases - most notably Greece - their cheating in order to qualify for Euro membership) and the other member states were uninclined to underwrite their profligacy.

 

Economic measures were eventually agreed, but not as a direct result of the 2008 crash. That merely exposed those who'd been skinny dipping, to quote Warren Buffet's popular phrase of the time.

 

The EU had no role in their predicaments, that had brought that on themselves. The real reason for the bail-outs was to protect the Euro from the impact of a number of countries re-introducing their old currencies in order to devalue. The bail-outs were judged a less damaging option.

[Birdbrain]

Brian Kirby - 2020-07-06 6:56 PM

 

747 - 2020-07-06 12:34 PM...……………………….So the EU is looking after its member States ..... absolutely hilarious. In the 2008/9 economic downturn they did nothing ... until it looked like the Euro would collapse, along with the EU. Southern European countries were bankrupted while Northern ones protected themselves. The Covid epidemic was past its peak when they reluctantly offered some financial aid. It is a club with first and second class members, we are in the second group.

I think this misrepresents what the EU can do/could have done. The EU has no funding stream for such interventions. It requires unanimity of all member states to change its budget.

 

Those countries in trouble in 2010 were suffering from their own economic mismanagement (plus in several cases - most notably Greece - their cheating in order to qualify for Euro membership) and the other member states were uninclined to underwrite their profligacy.

 

Economic measures were eventually agreed, but not as a direct result of the 2008 crash. That merely exposed those who'd been skinny dipping, to quote Warren Buffet's popular phrase of the time.

 

The EU had no role in their predicaments, that had brought that on themselves. The real reason for the bail-outs was to protect the Euro from the impact of a number of countries re-introducing their old currencies in order to devalue. The bail-outs were judged a less damaging option.[/quote

 

Are you saying Greece and "other member states" conned the EU ??? ... No way that cant be right

[Nicepix]

Barryd999 - 2020-07-06 6:46 PM

 

jumpstart - 2020-07-06 5:30 PM

 

pepe63 - 2020-07-06 11:54 AM

 

Whilst those who voted to leave would have done so for a number of reasons, please lets not pretend that the "main" reason that Mr/Mrs Average Brexiteer- in- the- street voted as he/she did , was anything to do with "trade deals", and who we were/weren't able to have them with.... *-)

 

No, it was clear from the subject matter in the main media, and the "talk" on social media (very much including this forum) that at the time it wasn't about the above, it was about all those funny "Johnnie Foreigner" types who were supposedly "..comin' ova 'ere..takin' our jobs..cloggin' up our NHS..and scroungin' our benefits.." etc etc.

 

Also for some, the fact that we (the UK) were having to sit around a table with the aforementioned Johnnie Foreigners' representatives, instead of at the head of it, was never ever going to sit well...

 

:-S

 

I know it’s fashionable to say that was all about “foreigners” but funnily enough trade and how the EU fails it’s citizens was what people voted on.

 

That might have been your reasons but it certainly wasnt the reasons most people voted for Brexit.

 

)

 

You never learn do you? How on earth have you got the detailed information to evidence that claim?

 

No wonder nobody takes you seriously.

[Barryd999]

Nicepix - 2020-07-06 9:04 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2020-07-06 6:46 PM

 

jumpstart - 2020-07-06 5:30 PM

 

pepe63 - 2020-07-06 11:54 AM

 

Whilst those who voted to leave would have done so for a number of reasons, please lets not pretend that the "main" reason that Mr/Mrs Average Brexiteer- in- the- street voted as he/she did , was anything to do with "trade deals", and who we were/weren't able to have them with.... *-)

 

No, it was clear from the subject matter in the main media, and the "talk" on social media (very much including this forum) that at the time it wasn't about the above, it was about all those funny "Johnnie Foreigner" types who were supposedly "..comin' ova 'ere..takin' our jobs..cloggin' up our NHS..and scroungin' our benefits.." etc etc.

 

Also for some, the fact that we (the UK) were having to sit around a table with the aforementioned Johnnie Foreigners' representatives, instead of at the head of it, was never ever going to sit well...

 

:-S

 

I know it’s fashionable to say that was all about “foreigners” but funnily enough trade and how the EU fails it’s citizens was what people voted on.

 

That might have been your reasons but it certainly wasnt the reasons most people voted for Brexit.

 

)

 

You never learn do you? How on earth have you got the detailed information to evidence that claim?

 

No wonder nobody takes you seriously.

 

(lol) Seriously? Have you been on a desert island for four years or something? You really would have had to either been cut off from the rest of the world or been walking around with your head up your arse not to believe that immigration was the single biggest reason people voted for Brexit. All the polling leading up to the Brexit vote showed this. Of course after the vote was won as if by magic those that cited immigration as their main reason for voting to leave the EU suddenly decided it was not their main concern after all and the figures citing Immigration as a main concern dropped dramatically. Odd huh? *-)

 

Breaking point anyone?

[pepe63xnotuse]

Oh yes, on the run up to the referendum, "Trade deals" were a very real concern to the average Brexiteer in the street.. *-)