John52 Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-07-15 6:51 AM John52 - 2020-07-15 6:42 AM Even more worrying when you try to see where all our borrowed money is going 8-) "This stinks. It stinks worse than any of the other carrion this government has buried. This is not just about value for money, important as that is. ... Transparent, competitive tendering is a crucial defence against cronyism and corruption. It is essential to integrity in public life and public trust in politics. But the government doesn’t seem to care. As the scandal over Cummings’ trip to Durham shows, its strategy is to brazen out disgrace until public outrage subsides. We know it cheats and lies. It knows that we know, and it doesn’t care." https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/15/coronavirus-contracts-government-transparency-pandemic No way ... The Guardian attacking The Tories ... Cant believe it ... The gullible monkeys lap it up You are doing it again Instead of answering any points raised, you attack the person making them Can't you think up a trick of your own, or even a different one. Because your trotting out the same trick over and over again is getting boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 China have announced that it is totally unacceptable for us to reject one of their manufacturers,and there will be repercussions. Which bit of free enterprise do they not understand.......oh all of it. As it is now predicted that their population will decrease 50% by 2100, they will just be a minor nation by then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 What China understands is that England can be bullied much more easily when its alone out of the EU :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 John52 - 2020-07-15 10:54 AM What China understands is that England can be bullied much more easily when its alone out of the EU :-S And when China owns rather a lot of it! :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-07-15 11:29 AM John52 - 2020-07-15 10:54 AM What China understands is that England can be bullied much more easily when its alone out of the EU :-S And when China owns rather a lot of it! :-| No doubt you would prefer the Fourth Reich to own it? *-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-07-15 4:15 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-15 11:29 AM John52 - 2020-07-15 10:54 AM What China understands is that England can be bullied much more easily when its alone out of the EU :-S And when China owns rather a lot of it! :-| No doubt you would prefer the Fourth Reich to own it? *-) ......... Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-07-15 4:28 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-15 4:15 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-15 11:29 AM John52 - 2020-07-15 10:54 AM What China understands is that England can be bullied much more easily when its alone out of the EU :-S And when China owns rather a lot of it! :-| No doubt you would prefer the Fourth Reich to own it? *-) ......... Why? Blimey Brian, your pro EU/4th Reich bias is hardly new news is it? 8-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-07-15 4:31 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-15 4:28 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-15 4:15 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-15 11:29 AM John52 - 2020-07-15 10:54 AM What China understands is that England can be bullied much more easily when its alone out of the EU :-S And when China owns rather a lot of it! :-| No doubt you would prefer the Fourth Reich to own it? *-) ......... Why? Blimey Brian, your pro EU/4th Reich bias is hardly new news is it? 8-) ........ Except that, so far as I'm aware, the EU owns no part of the UK (though some UK numpties have sold bits of the UK to various EU states). Given that, should I conclude that you prefer being part owned by a belligerent totalitarian communist state? There's nowt so queer as folk! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-07-15 5:47 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-15 4:31 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-15 4:28 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-15 4:15 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-15 11:29 AM John52 - 2020-07-15 10:54 AM What China understands is that England can be bullied much more easily when its alone out of the EU :-S And when China owns rather a lot of it! :-| No doubt you would prefer the Fourth Reich to own it? *-) ......... Why? Blimey Brian, your pro EU/4th Reich bias is hardly new news is it? 8-) ........ Except that, so far as I'm aware, the EU owns no part of the UK (though some UK numpties have sold bits of the UK to various EU states). Given that, should I conclude that you prefer being part owned by a belligerent totalitarian communist state? There's nowt so queer as folk! :-D Empires don't own businesses Brian *-) ........ They control countries ;-) ........ There's nowt as sad as sycophants 8-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-07-15 6:29 PM.......................Empires don't own businesses Brian *-) ........ They control countries ;-) ........ Yes, but China now owns significant businesses in the UK, through which it may well seek to exert control over the UK. You haven't read that link I posted on 14 July at 17:30 have you? Have a read. It surprised me as to who owns what in the UK, and China is in there. Then, bearing in mind all your posted objections to "Chinky flu" and their politics, I'd have thought you'd be quite concerned. Are you really saying you'd sooner have China owning bits of UK Plc than Germany (I assume you mean Germany by "the fourth reich"? BTW, I asked you earlier, what is your particular problem with Germany? You never answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiesgrandad Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 Can I add two pennorth to the comments about Germany please. There are still a lot of us about who are still a bit disenchanted with the Germans because of the way they dropped bombs on our houses a few years back, in some cases it seemed quite personal. There are also those of us who have been warning you that there is nothing in their actions over the last 50 years that indicates that they have given up on their ambition to dominate Western Europe to their advantage, it's just that they've changed their MO. AGD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 Archiesgrandad - 2020-07-16 8:50 PM There are also those of us who have been warning you that there is nothing in their actions over the last 50 years that indicates that they have given up on their ambition to dominate Western Europe to their advantage, it's just that they've changed their MO. AGD Not sure how you come to that conclusion - they haven't been a united country for the last 50 years. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 malc d - 2020-07-16 9:23 PM Archiesgrandad - 2020-07-16 8:50 PM There are also those of us who have been warning you that there is nothing in their actions over the last 50 years that indicates that they have given up on their ambition to dominate Western Europe to their advantage, it's just that they've changed their MO. AGD Not sure how you come to that conclusion - they haven't been a united country for the last 50 years. :-| If Germany doesn't run the EU :-| ......... Why did Cameron have to go cap in hand to Mrs Merkel to ask if we could change our deal with the EU? *-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-07-17 8:07 AM malc d - 2020-07-16 9:23 PM Archiesgrandad - 2020-07-16 8:50 PM There are also those of us who have been warning you that there is nothing in their actions over the last 50 years that indicates that they have given up on their ambition to dominate Western Europe to their advantage, it's just that they've changed their MO. AGD Not sure how you come to that conclusion - they haven't been a united country for the last 50 years. :-| If Germany doesn't run the EU :-| ......... Why did Cameron have to go cap in hand to Mrs Merkel to ask if we could change our deal with the EU? *-) .......... In common with some other Daves, Cameron thought that Mrs Merkel ( and Germany ) was in charge of the EU. When he got there she said " sorry Dave, I can't help you, because I don't run the EU, but if it helps we could come up with a "pretend'" deal so that you can go back and see if you can fool the British people with it ". So that's what Dave did, and it clearly didn't work. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 malc d - 2020-07-17 10:12 AM pelmetman - 2020-07-17 8:07 AM malc d - 2020-07-16 9:23 PM Archiesgrandad - 2020-07-16 8:50 PM There are also those of us who have been warning you that there is nothing in their actions over the last 50 years that indicates that they have given up on their ambition to dominate Western Europe to their advantage, it's just that they've changed their MO. AGD Not sure how you come to that conclusion - they haven't been a united country for the last 50 years. :-| If Germany doesn't run the EU :-| ......... Why did Cameron have to go cap in hand to Mrs Merkel to ask if we could change our deal with the EU? *-) .......... In common with some other Daves, Cameron thought that Mrs Merkel ( and Germany ) was in charge of the EU. When he got there she said " sorry Dave, I can't help you, because I don't run the EU, but if it helps we could come up with a "pretend'" deal so that you can go back and see if you can fool the British people with it ". So that's what Dave did, and it clearly didn't work. ;-) Correct it didn't work ;-) ......... But if you think Germany doesn't run the EU then you really do lead a sheletered life :D ........ They've even given the top job to Mrs Merkel No 1 stooge 8-) ......... Here's the view from MY side of the fence :D ......... https://www.facts4eu.org/news Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 Archiesgrandad - 2020-07-16 8:50 PM Can I add two pennorth to the comments about Germany please. There are still a lot of us about who are still a bit disenchanted with the Germans because of the way they dropped bombs on our houses a few years back, in some cases it seemed quite personal. There are also those of us who have been warning you that there is nothing in their actions over the last 50 years that indicates that they have given up on their ambition to dominate Western Europe to their advantage, it's just that they've changed their MO. AGD Neville Chamberlin, 3 September 1939: "..............and consequently this country is at war with Germany." As near as dammit, 81 years ago. Yet, for some, it is as though we are still at war with Germany. Others might observe that Germans - but above all young Germans - have been trying to escape the charge that "nothing in their actions over the last 50 years…...indicates that they have given up on their ambition to dominate Western Europe to their advantage, it's just that they've changed their MO", ever since 1945. That war ended 75 years ago. The European Coal and Steel Community was formed in 1950, only five years after the war, between West Germany (as it then was) France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxemburg, and Italy. So if, after only five years from the end of the most destructive war ever fought, those five countries - which had been in whole or in part actually overrun by Germany during that war - could summon the political courage to join with Germany in a venture intended to unite them and make future European wars a virtual impossibility, and then over the next 70 years develop that Community into a European Economic Community, and again into a European Union, what is to be made of a now, sadly relatively small, group of people who cannot, or will not, accept how much the world has changed over those past 75 years? I don't doubt that people had a similar enduring mistrust of France after the Napoleonic wars, and yet...…………………………….that mistrust has since diminished to the point at which "quite a lot of us" now live in France. Time for a re-evaluation, perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-07-17 8:07 AM malc d - 2020-07-16 9:23 PM Archiesgrandad - 2020-07-16 8:50 PM There are also those of us who have been warning you that there is nothing in their actions over the last 50 years that indicates that they have given up on their ambition to dominate Western Europe to their advantage, it's just that they've changed their MO. AGD Not sure how you come to that conclusion - they haven't been a united country for the last 50 years. :-| If Germany doesn't run the EU :-| ......... Why did Cameron have to go cap in hand to Mrs Merkel to ask if we could change our deal with the EU? *-) .......... He did not. He went, to a meeting of the European Council (the leaders of all 28 EU states), at which all the leaders were present. At that meeting there were negotiations and offers with and from from all leaders. What he actually got was this: https://tinyurl.com/y5ebaxhn As can be seen, that was to a very great extent exactly what he had asked for, and was agreed to and accepted by the members of the other 27 states. What he could not do when he returned to the UK, was to sell what he'd got to sufficient of the Eurosceptic UK politicians to persuade them it was acceptable. The "deal" was then systematically trashed, and used to further wind up the Eurosceptic elements of the UK electorate. So, in the end, the referendum votes of substantially less than 50% of the UK electorate, though a small majority of votes cast, came down in favour of leaving. Nothing Cameron could have agreed with the Council would have satisfied the Eurosceptics, because they were not interested in negotiating any change to the terms of the UK's membership of the EU, only in leaving the EU. Failing to understand that was Cameron's mistake. He thought they would see reason, and had not realised that reason was absent. That is evident in AGD's and Dave's posts. Both are implacably opposed to the EU, for the most part, apparently, because it includes Germany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-07-17 10:53 AM malc d - 2020-07-17 10:12 AM pelmetman - 2020-07-17 8:07 AM malc d - 2020-07-16 9:23 PM Archiesgrandad - 2020-07-16 8:50 PM There are also those of us who have been warning you that there is nothing in their actions over the last 50 years that indicates that they have given up on their ambition to dominate Western Europe to their advantage, it's just that they've changed their MO. AGD Not sure how you come to that conclusion - they haven't been a united country for the last 50 years. :-| If Germany doesn't run the EU :-| ......... Why did Cameron have to go cap in hand to Mrs Merkel to ask if we could change our deal with the EU? *-) .......... In common with some other Daves, Cameron thought that Mrs Merkel ( and Germany ) was in charge of the EU. When he got there she said " sorry Dave, I can't help you, because I don't run the EU, but if it helps we could come up with a "pretend'" deal so that you can go back and see if you can fool the British people with it ". So that's what Dave did, and it clearly didn't work. ;-) Correct it didn't work ;-) ......... But if you think Germany doesn't run the EU then you really do lead a sheletered life :D ........ I don't really care who runs anything, as long as they do a good job ( for everyone ). ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-07-17 10:56 AM Archiesgrandad - 2020-07-16 8:50 PM Can I add two pennorth to the comments about Germany please. There are still a lot of us about who are still a bit disenchanted with the Germans because of the way they dropped bombs on our houses a few years back, in some cases it seemed quite personal. There are also those of us who have been warning you that there is nothing in their actions over the last 50 years that indicates that they have given up on their ambition to dominate Western Europe to their advantage, it's just that they've changed their MO. AGD I don't doubt that people had a similar enduring mistrust of France after the Napoleonic wars, and yet...…………………………….that mistrust has since diminished to the point at which "quite a lot of us" now live in France. Time for a re-evaluation, perhaps? ... and we mustn't forget the Spanish Armada Brian. In spite of that, a lot of Brits take holidays there, and some even migrate to Spain ! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 malc d - 2020-07-17 1:40 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-17 10:56 AM Archiesgrandad - 2020-07-16 8:50 PM Can I add two pennorth to the comments about Germany please. There are still a lot of us about who are still a bit disenchanted with the Germans because of the way they dropped bombs on our houses a few years back, in some cases it seemed quite personal. There are also those of us who have been warning you that there is nothing in their actions over the last 50 years that indicates that they have given up on their ambition to dominate Western Europe to their advantage, it's just that they've changed their MO. AGD I don't doubt that people had a similar enduring mistrust of France after the Napoleonic wars, and yet...…………………………….that mistrust has since diminished to the point at which "quite a lot of us" now live in France. Time for a re-evaluation, perhaps? ... and we mustn't forget the Spanish Armada Brian. In spite of that, a lot of Brits take holidays there, and some even migrate to Spain ! :-D I know, and all those Celts, Angles, Saxons, Friesians, Jutes, Romans, Vikings, and Normans, Some of whom, I hear, actually invaded and even, in a couple of cases, took over? In fact, I'd be a bit surprised if some of our Brexiter Brits don't actually have bits of their DNA somewhere in their genomes! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-07-17 11:40 AM pelmetman - 2020-07-17 8:07 AM malc d - 2020-07-16 9:23 PM Archiesgrandad - 2020-07-16 8:50 PM There are also those of us who have been warning you that there is nothing in their actions over the last 50 years that indicates that they have given up on their ambition to dominate Western Europe to their advantage, it's just that they've changed their MO. AGD Not sure how you come to that conclusion - they haven't been a united country for the last 50 years. :-| If Germany doesn't run the EU :-| ......... Why did Cameron have to go cap in hand to Mrs Merkel to ask if we could change our deal with the EU? *-) .......... He did not. He went, to a meeting of the European Council (the leaders of all 28 EU states), at which all the leaders were present. At that meeting there were negotiations and offers with and from from all leaders. What he actually got was this: https://tinyurl.com/y5ebaxhn As can be seen, that was to a very great extent exactly what he had asked for, and was agreed to and accepted by the members of the other 27 states. What he could not do when he returned to the UK, was to sell what he'd got to sufficient of the Eurosceptic UK politicians to persuade them it was acceptable. The "deal" was then systematically trashed, and used to further wind up the Eurosceptic elements of the UK electorate. So, in the end, the referendum votes of substantially less than 50% of the UK electorate, though a small majority of votes cast, came down in favour of leaving. Nothing Cameron could have agreed with the Council would have satisfied the Eurosceptics, because they were not interested in negotiating any change to the terms of the UK's membership of the EU, only in leaving the EU. Failing to understand that was Cameron's mistake. He thought they would see reason, and had not realised that reason was absent. That is evident in AGD's and Dave's posts. Both are implacably opposed to the EU, for the most part, apparently, because it includes Germany. Its funny how the Losers delete button in your mind works different to us Brexiteers ;-) ........ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35407076 "Mr Cameron has pledged to secure a better deal for the UK in the European Union as a prelude to the referendum, in which voters will be asked whether they want to stay in the EU or leave. There has been speculation that the PM could call the poll as early as June this year if he gets the backing of the EU's other 27 leaders for his reform demands at a summit in February." Fortunately the Biased Broadcasting Corperation hasn't deleted their memory yet :D ........ Nor the Independent >:-) ........ https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-immigration-david-cameron-made-late-appeal-angela-merkel-over-free-movement-before-eu-a7152111.html Kinda wonder why he wasted his time if Germany does not run the EU? *-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-07-16 7:29 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-15 6:29 PM.......................Empires don't own businesses Brian *-) ........ They control countries ;-) ........ Yes, but China now owns significant businesses in the UK, through which it may well seek to exert control over the UK. You haven't read that link I posted on 14 July at 17:30 have you? Have a read. It surprised me as to who owns what in the UK, and China is in there. Then, bearing in mind all your posted objections to "Chinky flu" and their politics, I'd have thought you'd be quite concerned. Are you really saying you'd sooner have China owning bits of UK Plc than Germany (I assume you mean Germany by "the fourth reich"? BTW, I asked you earlier, what is your particular problem with Germany? You never answered. Doesn't look as if he's going to. Unless its 'Loony Leftie Remoaner Loser' again :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 malc d - 2020-07-17 1:22 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-17 10:53 AM malc d - 2020-07-17 10:12 AM pelmetman - 2020-07-17 8:07 AM malc d - 2020-07-16 9:23 PM Archiesgrandad - 2020-07-16 8:50 PM There are also those of us who have been warning you that there is nothing in their actions over the last 50 years that indicates that they have given up on their ambition to dominate Western Europe to their advantage, it's just that they've changed their MO. AGD Not sure how you come to that conclusion - they haven't been a united country for the last 50 years. :-| If Germany doesn't run the EU :-| ......... Why did Cameron have to go cap in hand to Mrs Merkel to ask if we could change our deal with the EU? *-) .......... In common with some other Daves, Cameron thought that Mrs Merkel ( and Germany ) was in charge of the EU. When he got there she said " sorry Dave, I can't help you, because I don't run the EU, but if it helps we could come up with a "pretend'" deal so that you can go back and see if you can fool the British people with it ". So that's what Dave did, and it clearly didn't work. ;-) Correct it didn't work ;-) ......... But if you think Germany doesn't run the EU then you really do lead a sheletered life :D ........ I don't really care who runs anything, as long as they do a good job ( for everyone ). ;-) Best you dig the dirt on your side of the fence Malc ;-) ........ Unless you like the whiff of Marxist cesspit? 8-) ........ I hear the Loony Lefties are rewriting the history of the Gulags :D ........ Perhaps you should book a holiday? (lol) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-07-17 4:30 PM Best you dig the dirt on your side of the fence Malc ;-) ........ Unless you like the whiff of Marxist cesspit? 8-) ........ I hear the Loony Lefties are rewriting the history of the Gulags :D ........ Perhaps you should book a holiday? (lol) ........ (?) Your response is far too intellectual for me Dave - I don't understand a word of it. I'm sure it means something to you , but to me it's just drivel. ( or are you just drinking earlier than usual this evening ? ) :D :D :'( >:-( 8o| :-> :-( :-o >:-) (>) B-) >:-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-07-17 4:25 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-17 11:40 AM pelmetman - 2020-07-17 8:07 AM malc d - 2020-07-16 9:23 PM Archiesgrandad - 2020-07-16 8:50 PM There are also those of us who have been warning you that there is nothing in their actions over the last 50 years that indicates that they have given up on their ambition to dominate Western Europe to their advantage, it's just that they've changed their MO. AGD Not sure how you come to that conclusion - they haven't been a united country for the last 50 years. :-| If Germany doesn't run the EU :-| ......... Why did Cameron have to go cap in hand to Mrs Merkel to ask if we could change our deal with the EU? *-) .......... He did not. He went, to a meeting of the European Council (the leaders of all 28 EU states), at which all the leaders were present. At that meeting there were negotiations and offers with and from from all leaders. What he actually got was this: https://tinyurl.com/y5ebaxhn As can be seen, that was to a very great extent exactly what he had asked for, and was agreed to and accepted by the members of the other 27 states. What he could not do when he returned to the UK, was to sell what he'd got to sufficient of the Eurosceptic UK politicians to persuade them it was acceptable. The "deal" was then systematically trashed, and used to further wind up the Eurosceptic elements of the UK electorate. So, in the end, the referendum votes of substantially less than 50% of the UK electorate, though a small majority of votes cast, came down in favour of leaving. Nothing Cameron could have agreed with the Council would have satisfied the Eurosceptics, because they were not interested in negotiating any change to the terms of the UK's membership of the EU, only in leaving the EU. Failing to understand that was Cameron's mistake. He thought they would see reason, and had not realised that reason was absent. That is evident in AGD's and Dave's posts. Both are implacably opposed to the EU, for the most part, apparently, because it includes Germany. 1 Its funny how the Losers delete button in your mind works different to us Brexiteers ;-) ........https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35407076 2 "Mr Cameron has pledged to secure a better deal for the UK in the European Union as a prelude to the referendum, in which voters will be asked whether they want to stay in the EU or leave. 3 There has been speculation that the PM could call the poll as early as June this year if he gets the backing of the EU's other 27 leaders for his reform demands at a summit in February." 4 Fortunately the Biased Broadcasting Corperation hasn't deleted their memory yet :D ........ Nor the Independent >:-) ........https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-immigration-david-cameron-made-late-appeal-angela-merkel-over-free-movement-before-eu-a7152111.html 5 Kinda wonder why he wasted his time if Germany does not run the EU? *-) ......... Its all in the detail, Dave. That stuff you never read as you snatch the bits you like from history! :-D 1 The relatively speculative BBC report you quote is from 26 January, when Cameron was "working the 'phones" to the other leaders before the February Council meeting. You may have missed that it reported him also speaking to Enda Kenny, the then Irish Taoiseach. OTOH, my Independent report of 20 February 2016 refers to the outcome of actual Council meeting, held on 18/19 February. So, as it says, he got most of what he'd asked for. 2 See the Independent report above. 3 He did both. 4 Which merely confirms what I said, "What he could not do when he returned to the UK, was to sell what he'd got to sufficient of the Eurosceptic UK politicians to persuade them it was acceptable." You may not have noticed, but the Independent report you linked is dated 23 July 2016, so after the referendum and not therefore relevant to Cameron 'phoning (but not going, as you put it, "cap in hand to) Merkel". He was then trying to gain support for further concessions. You seem not to have noticed that he reportedly also spoke to Junker, Tusk, and Hollande (and probably others as well). That was because the leave campaign had fixated on the migration issue, with that famously misleading picture of a line of people we were supposed to believe represented the whole population of Turkey lining up at the door (which, unbelievably, some of the easily impressed actually did believe). Following those reported post-Council conversations with the other leaders he realised he wouldn't get further concessions over the 'phone, had already announced the referendum date, and was concerned he'd look weak if he moved the referendum date to be able to take his case to the next Council meeting. Besides which, I think he realised that if he'd done that and got more concessions, the Brexiters would merely have upped the stakes again. So, he concluded that he'd probably lost his case with the UK, and the referendum went ahead irrespective. All this because you won't read, and then think, before you post - and only read whatever the media says to confirm your pro-Brexit bias. The simple fact is that, even from your own chosen reports, Cameron did not go "cap in hand" to Merkel as you claimed, but was forced by the implacable intransigence of the Brexiters, and his own misreading of their absolute determination to win irrespective of the consequences for the UK, to go cap in hand to the EU Council for concessions that would never gain the support of EU hating Brexiters. I think the poor bloke thought he was dealing with reasonable people: he wasn't! If Germany wants what other EU members do not want, it is, and will be, outvoted. It does not, and can not, "run" the EU. It makes the largest contribution to the cost of the EU, and that gives it great influence with the other states, but having great influence does not amount to "running". It certainly dominates, and in the absence of the UK is liable to become more dominant. That will create frictions with the others, especially probably the French. Where that will lead we must wait and see, but will have no ability to influence for good or ill. Our loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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