Guest pelmetman Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-07-17 6:30 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-17 4:25 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-17 11:40 AM pelmetman - 2020-07-17 8:07 AM malc d - 2020-07-16 9:23 PM Archiesgrandad - 2020-07-16 8:50 PM There are also those of us who have been warning you that there is nothing in their actions over the last 50 years that indicates that they have given up on their ambition to dominate Western Europe to their advantage, it's just that they've changed their MO. AGD Not sure how you come to that conclusion - they haven't been a united country for the last 50 years. :-| If Germany doesn't run the EU :-| ......... Why did Cameron have to go cap in hand to Mrs Merkel to ask if we could change our deal with the EU? *-) .......... He did not. He went, to a meeting of the European Council (the leaders of all 28 EU states), at which all the leaders were present. At that meeting there were negotiations and offers with and from from all leaders. What he actually got was this: https://tinyurl.com/y5ebaxhn As can be seen, that was to a very great extent exactly what he had asked for, and was agreed to and accepted by the members of the other 27 states. What he could not do when he returned to the UK, was to sell what he'd got to sufficient of the Eurosceptic UK politicians to persuade them it was acceptable. The "deal" was then systematically trashed, and used to further wind up the Eurosceptic elements of the UK electorate. So, in the end, the referendum votes of substantially less than 50% of the UK electorate, though a small majority of votes cast, came down in favour of leaving. Nothing Cameron could have agreed with the Council would have satisfied the Eurosceptics, because they were not interested in negotiating any change to the terms of the UK's membership of the EU, only in leaving the EU. Failing to understand that was Cameron's mistake. He thought they would see reason, and had not realised that reason was absent. That is evident in AGD's and Dave's posts. Both are implacably opposed to the EU, for the most part, apparently, because it includes Germany. 1 Its funny how the Losers delete button in your mind works different to us Brexiteers ;-) ........https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35407076 2 "Mr Cameron has pledged to secure a better deal for the UK in the European Union as a prelude to the referendum, in which voters will be asked whether they want to stay in the EU or leave. 3 There has been speculation that the PM could call the poll as early as June this year if he gets the backing of the EU's other 27 leaders for his reform demands at a summit in February." 4 Fortunately the Biased Broadcasting Corperation hasn't deleted their memory yet :D ........ Nor the Independent >:-) ........https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-immigration-david-cameron-made-late-appeal-angela-merkel-over-free-movement-before-eu-a7152111.html 5 Kinda wonder why he wasted his time if Germany does not run the EU? *-) ......... Its all in the detail, Dave. That stuff you never read as you snatch the bits you like from history! :-D 1 The relatively speculative BBC report you quote is from 26 January, when Cameron was "working the 'phones" to the other leaders before the February Council meeting. You may have missed that it reported him also speaking to Enda Kenny, the then Irish Taoiseach. OTOH, my Independent report of 20 February 2016 refers to the outcome of actual Council meeting, held on 18/19 February. So, as it says, he got most of what he'd asked for. 2 See the Independent report above. 3 He did both. 4 Which merely confirms what I said, "What he could not do when he returned to the UK, was to sell what he'd got to sufficient of the Eurosceptic UK politicians to persuade them it was acceptable." You may not have noticed, but the Independent report you linked is dated 23 July 2016, so after the referendum and not therefore relevant to Cameron 'phoning (but not going, as you put it, "cap in hand to) Merkel". He was then trying to gain support for further concessions. You seem not to have noticed that he reportedly also spoke to Junker, Tusk, and Hollande (and probably others as well). That was because the leave campaign had fixated on the migration issue, with that famously misleading picture of a line of people we were supposed to believe represented the whole population of Turkey lining up at the door (which, unbelievably, some of the easily impressed actually did believe). Following those reported post-Council conversations with the other leaders he realised he wouldn't get further concessions over the 'phone, had already announced the referendum date, and was concerned he'd look weak if he moved the referendum date to be able to take his case to the next Council meeting. Besides which, I think he realised that if he'd done that and got more concessions, the Brexiters would merely have upped the stakes again. So, he concluded that he'd probably lost his case with the UK, and the referendum went ahead irrespective. All this because you won't read, and then think, before you post - and only read whatever the media says to confirm your pro-Brexit bias. The simple fact is that, even from your own chosen reports, Cameron did not go "cap in hand" to Merkel as you claimed, but was forced by the implacable intransigence of the Brexiters, and his own misreading of their absolute determination to win irrespective of the consequences for the UK, to go cap in hand to the EU Council for concessions that would never gain the support of EU hating Brexiters. I think the poor bloke thought he was dealing with reasonable people: he wasn't! If Germany wants what other EU members do not want, it is, and will be, outvoted. It does not, and can not, "run" the EU. It makes the largest contribution to the cost of the EU, and that gives it great influence with the other states, but having great influence does not amount to "running". It certainly dominates, and in the absence of the UK is liable to become more dominant. That will create frictions with the others, especially probably the French. Where that will lead we must wait and see, but will have no ability to influence for good or ill. Our loss. So your diatribe proves that all EU sycophants pass the buck to Merkel to decide ;-) ........ Deffo looks like she's incharge of the EU empire from where I'm sat *-) ......... Which is prolly why she said NO :D ......... They didn't like it when we said no before >:-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 malc d - 2020-07-17 5:24 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-17 4:30 PM Best you dig the dirt on your side of the fence Malc ;-) ........ Unless you like the whiff of Marxist cesspit? 8-) ........ I hear the Loony Lefties are rewriting the history of the Gulags :D ........ Perhaps you should book a holiday? (lol) ........ (?) Your response is far too intellectual for me Dave - I don't understand a word of it. I'm sure it means something to you , but to me it's just drivel. ( or are you just drinking earlier than usual this evening ? ) :D :D :'( >:-( 8o| :-> :-( :-o >:-) (>) B-) >:-( Perhaps the fence on your side is a bit dence? ;-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-07-17 6:53 PM...……………………... 1 So your diatribe proves that all EU sycophants pass the buck to Merkel to decide ;-) ........ 2 Deffo looks like she's incharge of the EU empire from where I'm sat *-) ......... 3 Which is prolly why she said NO :D ......... 4 They didn't like it when we said no before >:-) ........ 1 It wouldn't if you had read it! :-) 2 Then you need to change your seat to one that gives you a balanced view! :-D 3 She said no because the EU as a whole was never going to let the UK pick and choose which EU citizens could have preferential rights to enter the UK, while others were discriminated against - especially when the FoM objections had been caused by the UK government itself! 4 Said no to what: when? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-07-17 7:04 PM malc d - 2020-07-17 5:24 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-17 4:30 PM Best you dig the dirt on your side of the fence Malc ;-) ........ Unless you like the whiff of Marxist cesspit? 8-) ........ I hear the Loony Lefties are rewriting the history of the Gulags :D ........ Perhaps you should book a holiday? (lol) ........ (?) Your response is far too intellectual for me Dave - I don't understand a word of it. I'm sure it means something to you , but to me it's just drivel. ( or are you just drinking earlier than usual this evening ? ) :D :D :'( >:-( 8o| :-> :-( :-o >:-) (>) B-) >:-( Perhaps the fence on your side is a bit dence? ;-) ......... Congratulations on coming up with a word that rhymes with ' fence ' - Is it Spanish ? :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-07-17 7:05 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-17 6:53 PM...……………………... 1 So your diatribe proves that all EU sycophants pass the buck to Merkel to decide ;-) ........ 2 Deffo looks like she's incharge of the EU empire from where I'm sat *-) ......... 3 Which is prolly why she said NO :D ......... 4 They didn't like it when we said no before >:-) ........ 1 It wouldn't if you had read it! :-) 2 Then you need to change your seat to one that gives you a balanced view! :-D 3 She said no because the EU as a whole was never going to let the UK pick and choose which EU citizens could have preferential rights to enter the UK, while others were discriminated against - especially when the FoM objections had been caused by the UK government itself! 4 Said no to what: when? 1........It depends on ones bias as to how it reads ;-) ........ 2........If all the drivers are Germans, then I'd say the Germans are in charge *-) ........ 3........She said no because she didn't think the British public would tell her to get stuffed >:-) ......... 4........WW1 & WW2 :D ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-07-18 10:17 AM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-17 7:05 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-17 6:53 PM...……………………... 1 So your diatribe proves that all EU sycophants pass the buck to Merkel to decide ;-) ........ 2 Deffo looks like she's incharge of the EU empire from where I'm sat *-) ......... 3 Which is prolly why she said NO :D ......... 4 They didn't like it when we said no before >:-) ........ 1 It wouldn't if you had read it! :-) 2 Then you need to change your seat to one that gives you a balanced view! :-D 3 She said no because the EU as a whole was never going to let the UK pick and choose which EU citizens could have preferential rights to enter the UK, while others were discriminated against - especially when the FoM objections had been caused by the UK government itself! 4 Said no to what: when? 1........It depends on ones bias as to how it reads ;-) ........ 2........If all the drivers are Germans, then I'd say the Germans are in charge *-) ........ 3........She said no because she didn't think the British public would tell her to get stuffed >:-) ......... 4........WW1 & WW2 :D ........ 1 Inevitably. Beware bias! 2 They aren't, so they aren't! 3 She said no because she knew the rest of the EU would tell her to get stuffed. 4 Can only suggest you read up on the origins of both wars. You do have a problem with Germany, don't you? Why? You were born after 1957, so neither would have touched you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-07-18 12:33 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-18 10:17 AM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-17 7:05 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-17 6:53 PM...……………………... 1 So your diatribe proves that all EU sycophants pass the buck to Merkel to decide ;-) ........ 2 Deffo looks like she's incharge of the EU empire from where I'm sat *-) ......... 3 Which is prolly why she said NO :D ......... 4 They didn't like it when we said no before >:-) ........ 1 It wouldn't if you had read it! :-) 2 Then you need to change your seat to one that gives you a balanced view! :-D 3 She said no because the EU as a whole was never going to let the UK pick and choose which EU citizens could have preferential rights to enter the UK, while others were discriminated against - especially when the FoM objections had been caused by the UK government itself! 4 Said no to what: when? 1........It depends on ones bias as to how it reads ;-) ........ 2........If all the drivers are Germans, then I'd say the Germans are in charge *-) ........ 3........She said no because she didn't think the British public would tell her to get stuffed >:-) ......... 4........WW1 & WW2 :D ........ 4 Can only suggest you read up on the origins of both wars. He bases any war history on pictures he saw in his comics. You do have a problem with Germany, don't you? Why? You were born after 1957, so neither would have touched you. I've yet to read a logical explanation from him on that.....then again i've yet to read anything he posts as resembling logic. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 Of course the EU said no. They had to. How can the EU give us a better deal as non members than we had as a member *-) And how can we lay down terms to them when we are one country and they are 27 *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-07-18 12:33 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-18 10:17 AM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-17 7:05 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-17 6:53 PM...……………………... 1 So your diatribe proves that all EU sycophants pass the buck to Merkel to decide ;-) ........ 2 Deffo looks like she's incharge of the EU empire from where I'm sat *-) ......... 3 Which is prolly why she said NO :D ......... 4 They didn't like it when we said no before >:-) ........ 1 It wouldn't if you had read it! :-) 2 Then you need to change your seat to one that gives you a balanced view! :-D 3 She said no because the EU as a whole was never going to let the UK pick and choose which EU citizens could have preferential rights to enter the UK, while others were discriminated against - especially when the FoM objections had been caused by the UK government itself! 4 Said no to what: when? 1........It depends on ones bias as to how it reads ;-) ........ 2........If all the drivers are Germans, then I'd say the Germans are in charge *-) ........ 3........She said no because she didn't think the British public would tell her to get stuffed >:-) ......... 4........WW1 & WW2 :D ........ 1 Inevitably. Beware bias! 2 They aren't, so they aren't! 3 She said no because she knew the rest of the EU would tell her to get stuffed. 4 Can only suggest you read up on the origins of both wars. You do have a problem with Germany, don't you? Why? You were born after 1957, so neither would have touched you. 1.......Yep I'm well aware of your EU bias ;-) ......... 2.......https://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-selmayr-problem-too-many-germans-in-top-jobs/ 3.......From what I've seen.... what Merkel wants Merkel gets, which is why the EU fined those countries who wouldn't take the refugees Merkel invited *-) ...... 4.......If a country that has a history of starting wars in Europe, is once again trying to achieve supremacy in Europe.......That should be a problem for everyone who doesn't want to speak German >:-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-07-18 4:29 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-18 12:33 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-18 10:17 AM 1........It depends on ones bias as to how it reads ;-) ........ 2........If all the drivers are Germans, then I'd say the Germans are in charge *-) ........ 3........She said no because she didn't think the British public would tell her to get stuffed >:-) ......... 4........WW1 & WW2 :D ........ 1 Inevitably. Beware bias! 2 They aren't, so they aren't! 3 She said no because she knew the rest of the EU would tell her to get stuffed. 4 Can only suggest you read up on the origins of both wars. You do have a problem with Germany, don't you? Why? You were born after 1957, so neither would have touched you. 1.......Yep I'm well aware of your EU bias ;-) ......... 2.......https://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-selmayr-problem-too-many-germans-in-top-jobs/ 3.......From what I've seen.... what Merkel wants Merkel gets, which is why the EU fined those countries who wouldn't take the refugees Merkel invited *-) ...... 4.......If a country that has a history of starting wars in Europe, is once again trying to achieve supremacy in Europe.......That should be a problem for everyone who doesn't want to speak German >:-) ......... 1 As I am of yours. So what, we disagree? 2 Old report - he's now gone. Wonder why? 3 See here https://tinyurl.com/y2jz7wmc No fine. Wonder why? 4 If Britain had played its cards more effectively in the EU, and had managed its industrial policy as effectively as most of the more developed EU states, Britain could now be where Germany is. So why blame Germany for Britain's failings? What is this German thing with you? Is it just that you don't speak German? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-07-18 6:29 PM Britain could now be where Germany is. So why blame Germany for Britain's failings? Mad Hatter thinks Britain is stronger than Germany so the EU needs us more than we need them *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 John52 - 2020-07-18 10:33 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-18 6:29 PM Britain could now be where Germany is. So why blame Germany for Britain's failings? Mad Hatter thinks Britain is stronger than Germany so the EU needs us more than we need them *-) Nope.......I think Germany has milked other European countries for their enrichment *-) ......... Old habits eh? ;-) ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-07-18 6:29 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-18 4:29 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-18 12:33 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-18 10:17 AM 1........It depends on ones bias as to how it reads ;-) ........ 2........If all the drivers are Germans, then I'd say the Germans are in charge *-) ........ 3........She said no because she didn't think the British public would tell her to get stuffed >:-) ......... 4........WW1 & WW2 :D ........ 1 Inevitably. Beware bias! 2 They aren't, so they aren't! 3 She said no because she knew the rest of the EU would tell her to get stuffed. 4 Can only suggest you read up on the origins of both wars. You do have a problem with Germany, don't you? Why? You were born after 1957, so neither would have touched you. 1.......Yep I'm well aware of your EU bias ;-) ......... 2.......https://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-selmayr-problem-too-many-germans-in-top-jobs/ 3.......From what I've seen.... what Merkel wants Merkel gets, which is why the EU fined those countries who wouldn't take the refugees Merkel invited *-) ...... 4.......If a country that has a history of starting wars in Europe, is once again trying to achieve supremacy in Europe.......That should be a problem for everyone who doesn't want to speak German >:-) ......... 1 As I am of yours. So what, we disagree? 2 Old report - he's now gone. Wonder why? 3 See here https://tinyurl.com/y2jz7wmc No fine. Wonder why? 4 If Britain had played its cards more effectively in the EU, and had managed its industrial policy as effectively as most of the more developed EU states, Britain could now be where Germany is. So why blame Germany for Britain's failings? What is this German thing with you? Is it just that you don't speak German? 1........Time to accept we never will ;-)........ 2........Gone to a nice cushy job as a pay off and his deputy put in charge until the dust has settled, then another German will be sneaked in via the back door >:-) .......... 3.........YET........"The three countries could be fined for their violation" *-) ......... 4.........That's the difference between us Brian :D ........I don't see little old Britain ranking 5th among the worlds economies as a failure B-) ........... I guess that's the difference between us Winners and you Whiners (lol) (lol) (lol) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-07-19 8:34 AM John52 - 2020-07-18 10:33 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-18 6:29 PM Britain could now be where Germany is. So why blame Germany for Britain's failings? Mad Hatter thinks Britain is stronger than Germany so the EU needs us more than we need them *-) Nope.......I think Germany has milked other European countries for their enrichment *-) ......... Citation needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-07-19 8:53 AM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-18 6:29 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-18 4:29 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-18 12:33 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-18 10:17 AM 1........It depends on ones bias as to how it reads ;-) ........ 2........If all the drivers are Germans, then I'd say the Germans are in charge *-) ........ 3........She said no because she didn't think the British public would tell her to get stuffed >:-) ......... 4........WW1 & WW2 :D ........ 1 Inevitably. Beware bias! 2 They aren't, so they aren't! 3 She said no because she knew the rest of the EU would tell her to get stuffed. 4 Can only suggest you read up on the origins of both wars. You do have a problem with Germany, don't you? Why? You were born after 1957, so neither would have touched you. 1.......Yep I'm well aware of your EU bias ;-) ......... 2.......https://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-selmayr-problem-too-many-germans-in-top-jobs/ 3.......From what I've seen.... what Merkel wants Merkel gets, which is why the EU fined those countries who wouldn't take the refugees Merkel invited *-) ...... 4.......If a country that has a history of starting wars in Europe, is once again trying to achieve supremacy in Europe.......That should be a problem for everyone who doesn't want to speak German >:-) ......... 1 As I am of yours. So what, we disagree? 2 Old report - he's now gone. Wonder why? 3 See here https://tinyurl.com/y2jz7wmc No fine. Wonder why? 4 If Britain had played its cards more effectively in the EU, and had managed its industrial policy as effectively as most of the more developed EU states, Britain could now be where Germany is. So why blame Germany for Britain's failings? What is this German thing with you? Is it just that you don't speak German? 1........Time to accept we never will ;-)........ 2........Gone to a nice cushy job as a pay off and his deputy put in charge until the dust has settled, then another German will be sneaked in via the back door >:-) .......... 3.........YET........"The three countries could be fined for their violation" *-) ......... 4.........That's the difference between us Brian :D ........I don't see little old Britain ranking 5th among the worlds economies as a failure B-) ........... I guess that's the difference between us Winners and you Whiners (lol) (lol) (lol) .......... UK dropped to 6th since Brexit. https://www.investopedia.com/insights/worlds-top-economies/ And you're still avoiding Brians question he's asked you numerous times....."why blame Germany for Britain's failings? What is this German thing with you?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-07-19 8:53 AM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-18 6:29 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-18 4:29 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-18 12:33 PM pelmetman - 2020-07-18 10:17 AM 1........It depends on ones bias as to how it reads ;-) ........ 2........If all the drivers are Germans, then I'd say the Germans are in charge *-) ........ 3........She said no because she didn't think the British public would tell her to get stuffed >:-) ......... 4........WW1 & WW2 :D ........ 1 Inevitably. Beware bias! 2 They aren't, so they aren't! 3 She said no because she knew the rest of the EU would tell her to get stuffed. 4 Can only suggest you read up on the origins of both wars. You do have a problem with Germany, don't you? Why? You were born after 1957, so neither would have touched you. 1.......Yep I'm well aware of your EU bias ;-) ......... 2.......https://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-selmayr-problem-too-many-germans-in-top-jobs/ 3.......From what I've seen.... what Merkel wants Merkel gets, which is why the EU fined those countries who wouldn't take the refugees Merkel invited *-) ...... 4.......If a country that has a history of starting wars in Europe, is once again trying to achieve supremacy in Europe.......That should be a problem for everyone who doesn't want to speak German >:-) ......... 1 As I am of yours. So what, we disagree? 2 Old report - he's now gone. Wonder why? 3 See here https://tinyurl.com/y2jz7wmc No fine. Wonder why? 4 If Britain had played its cards more effectively in the EU, and had managed its industrial policy as effectively as most of the more developed EU states, Britain could now be where Germany is. So why blame Germany for Britain's failings? What is this German thing with you? Is it just that you don't speak German? 1........Time to accept we never will ;-)........ 2........Gone to a nice cushy job as a pay off and his deputy put in charge until the dust has settled, then another German will be sneaked in via the back door >:-) .......... 3.........YET........"The three countries could be fined for their violation" *-) ......... 4.........That's the difference between us Brian :D ........I don't see little old Britain ranking 5th among the worlds economies as a failure B-) ........... I guess that's the difference between us Winners and you Whiners (lol) (lol) (lol) .......... 1 Yep! :-D 2 Or maybe not. 3 I suspect not, but time will tell. 4 Not what I said. I didn't say UK was a failure, but that it had failings. But you're right, that is the difference between us. I see the UK as being capable of achieving so much more - if it would just fix its failings - while you're happy to settle for the status quo, and accept its inherent lazy, self-satisfied, complacency. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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