Grantos Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Set up on my recent trip away, but when I lifted taps to prime the water system nothing happened. I checked for power to the pump no problem there, so I rigged up a switch at the pump which enabled us to override the tap problem and get water to the taps and water heater directly, but I have no idea why the taps have stopped working, or how they switch on the pump when they are lifted Looking for help please on the way the taps turn the pump on and any guidance on how I could troubleshoot this problem. Any help will be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Grant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Come on Grant, you're going to have to help us to help you! What is the make, model and year of your MH and what are the taps like? Then a question, are there wires connected to the taps under the worktops? Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 When I had this happen had stuffed too much stuff under the washroom sink and dislodged the wire from tap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 OK, From a previous post Grant has a CI Riviera 171 2005 so does anyone know what taps CI used? Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 As the water-pump is clearly in working order (as Grant was able to jury-rig a switch) but none of the taps cause the pump to operate, it’s a reasonable bet that the taps use micro-switches and that either there’s a relay-related fault between the taps and the pump or a fuse has failed. If the underside of a tap can be seen, it should be a simple matter to establish whether it has micro-switches as (as Keith has mentioned) thin electrical wires will be visible coming from the tap’s base. This 2010 link may help https://www.practicalmotorhome.com/advice/troubleshoot-your-water-system but I can think of four different variations of how turning a motorhome’s taps on can cause the water-pump to operate. (Where is the water-pump? Is it inside the fresh-water tank or outside the tank?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grantos Posted August 22, 2020 Author Share Posted August 22, 2020 Great to hear from you all, the pump is not inside the water tank that's what made it so easy to jig it. I checked the fuse held in the box behind the front passenger seat with the tap symbol 10 amp but it was fine, so I will have a look to see if there are wires and if the taps use micro switches, a bit tight to get to, will need to remove fridge for kitchen, toilet should be easier, but needs must. Will keep you up to date, probably for more assistance. Thanks again for everyone's help (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 A water-pump outside the water-tank implies that the pump is the 'pressure-sensitive' type and the usual arrangement is that, when a tap is opened and the pressure within the water system falls as a consequence, the pump 'senses' the drop in pressure and starts to run. A pressure-sensitive pump MAY be triggered by micro-switches on taps, but this arrangement is very rare (though my 2005 Hobby motorhome had it). In principle, if the taps do not have micro-switches and the pump is the pressure-sensitive type, if the pump fails to start running when any tap is opened, either no 12V power is reaching the pump, or the pump itself is the culprit. What sort of switching ploy did you use? If you fed a separate power-supply to the pump and got it to go, I'd suspect that the normal wiring to the pump is the problem and, although everything (fuse, etc.) may look OK, the pump is not getting 12V power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grantos Posted August 24, 2020 Author Share Posted August 24, 2020 I've had a further look and there are no wires leading up to the taps and no sign of micro switches. I know the pump is working as I bypassed the taps with a switch directly to the pump which worked, as I said earlier so now wondering how to further fault find on the pump and how it works. The pump fitted is a Fiamma AQUA 8, if anyone can help me further on servicing it, that would be great. Once again thanks in advance for everyone's help. Best, Grant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 24, 2020 Share Posted August 24, 2020 The Fiamma Aqua 8 pump was discussed here recently https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Noisy-Fiamma-Aqua-8-water-pump/55982/ As I said in my last posting, as you managed to get the pump to run and pump water to the taps by providing the pump with a DIYed 12V power supply, either the existing 12V wiring is at fault or there’s something wrong with the pump. The trouble is (I hesitate to say this...) you don’t appear to understand how these pressure-sensitive pumps should operate. When the pump is switched on (normally via a switch on the motorhome’s main control-panel) it should start to run. If all water outlets (taps, shower-head, drain valves) are closed, the pump should continue to run until the system fills up and water within the system reaches a pre-set pressure, at which point a pressure-switch on the pump (usually adjustable) turns the pump off. When a water outlet is subsequently opened, the pressure in the water pipework falls and the pump’s pressure-switch ‘recognises’ this fall and turns the pump back on. It’s a very simple system, but (obviously) requires the pump’s motor to be connected to a vaild 12V power-supply and for the pressure-switch to be in working order. You should be able to test the pressure-switch’s operation by turning off all the water taps and using your ‘bypass’ 12V power supply to get the pump running. If the pressure-switch is working properly the water system should fill up, the water in the system should become appropriately pressurised, and the pump should eventually turn itself off. Opening a tap should then cause the pump to switch itself on and for water to start flowing from the tap, and then closing the tap should cause the pump to switch off once the water has been repressurised. I note that you said in your original posting " I checked for power to the pump no problem there, so I rigged up a switch at the pump which enabled us to override the tap problem and get water to the taps and water heater directly” but if there had been 12V power to the pump and all you did was replicate that power-supply with a separate DIY feed, I would have thought the pump should have worked in the first place. It may depend on what " I checked for power to the pump no problem there” means and how you checked, as (in crude kindergarten terms) 12V power might be arriving at the pump via a red wire but not leaving the pump by a black wire. Basically, 12V power reaches the pump but there is no circuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 24, 2020 Share Posted August 24, 2020 It sounds a little as though the pressure sensor switch has failed, the sensor itself is stuck, or the adjustment (assuming it is variable) has been knocked/adjusted to an out of range setting. I can't find any downloadable instructions for an Aqua 8 (or any other Fiamma pump!) but assume these should have been some supplied with the pump when new. Have you all the instruction booklets with you, Grant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickt Posted August 24, 2020 Share Posted August 24, 2020 Try taking the cassette out of the tap, make it is clean and replace .Or with cassette out turn pump on briefly to see if water is getting to tap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 24, 2020 Share Posted August 24, 2020 User instructions for Fiamma Aqua 8 pumps can be viewed here https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1137650/Fiamma-Aqua-8.html#manual The pump has just two 12V electrical cables - a red (+) and a black or blue (-) - image attached below. User adjustment of the pump’s pressure-switch is not allowed for. It’s perhaps worth repeating that Grant found that water flowed from NONE of the taps until he had jury-rigged a separate 12V supply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted August 24, 2020 Share Posted August 24, 2020 Derek Uzzell - 2020-08-24 6:51 PM The pump has just two 12V electrical cables - a red (+) and a black or blue (-) - image attached below. And it also has a 'link wire' between the pressure switch and the motor. shown in red on Derek's diagram! Test the operation of the pressure switch with a multimeter and then try powering up the pump without the pressure switch. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grantos Posted August 25, 2020 Author Share Posted August 25, 2020 Hi Brian, I think I agree with you that the pressure switch might be at fault here. I have disconnected the pump and blew through it at the inlet and outlet openings a few times giving the switch some back pressure, when I reconnected the pump to see it made any difference the pump has decided to work again. One thing, with water in the system, when turning off a tap the pump runs on for approx 5 seconds. Is that normal or could it be harming the pump?, I can't remember if it did this before I had this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 I'm working mobile here, so restricted opportunity for research. I know Derek has come to the conclusion that there is no scope for adjustment (others have come to that conclusion from the manual) but from dim memories of a similar issue years ago, I'm not convinced. Description of a replacement Aqua8 switch assembly on eBay advises checking the adjustment of the existing one before buying a replacement I fiddled incessantly with a Fiamma pump in a very restricted location years ago, and it was certainly adjustable. Look for an Allen or cross-head screw towards the centre of the outer face of the switch. The switch is operated by a diaphragm which is moved outwards by water pressure when the taps are closed, (pressing the switch off) and inwards when the taps are opened, releasing the pressure and turning the switch on. It seemed the diaphragm on mine became somewhat less flexible when not in use for a time, and the switching became less reliable. Once I'd got it working again, it would settle down with some use, but might require adjustment for best running. A few seconds running on after the taps are closed shouldn't be a problem. It is pressurising the system, pushing the diaphragm, and switching the switch. Much longer, and I'd be more concerned, but at least it is switching off. (It may have an accumulator in circuit like Derek's diagram, which would extend the switch off time whilst that also pressurises). There is a sweet-spot if the switch is indeed adjustable. A position for the adjustment screw where the switch turns on immediately on opening a tap, and off fairly quickly once the tap is closed. Adjust too far in a given direction and one or the other won't be so. A fiddly bit of trial and error is called for, and if the diaphragm "relaxes" under continued use, it may need a few more goes. (This, and the restricted location of mine is what is feeding the memory, which is best part of 20 years old :-) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 Robinhood - 2020-08-25 9:25 AM ...I know Derek has come to the conclusion that there is no scope for adjustment... I didn’t conclude that, but the Manual (Page 4) has a diagram that appears to ‘forbid’ sticking a screwdriver into a small hole in the face of the pump’s outer end. This was referred to in my posting on this 2018 forum thread. https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Pump-or-airlock-problem/49230/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 Grant The purpose of the pressure-switch is to turn off the water-pump when the pressure in your motorhome’s water system reaches the switch’s factory-chosen pressure setting. According to the Aqua 8 Instructions Manual this setting is 1.5bar (about 22psi). As I attempted to explain above, when the water in the system has attained a pressure of 1.5bar the pump should shut itself down. If a water-outlet (eg. a tap) is then opened the pressure within the system will immediately cause water to flow from the tap and this will result in the pressure within the water system dropping below 1.5bar. The pump’s pressure-switch should then react to the drop in pressure by switching the pump on and the pump will continue to run until the tap is closed and the pressure in the water system builds back up to 1.5bar, when the pump’s pressure-switch shouldl turn the pump off. With this type of water-pump there will always be a time-delay between the tap being closed and the pump switching itself off. The length of the delay will depend on where the tap is, the design of the complete water system and the water-pump’s specification, but a 5 seconds delay is not unusually long, won’t harm the pump and would have happened before you had this problem. I asked above (but did nor receive an answer...) What sort of switching ploy did you use? If you fed a separate power-supply to the pump and got it to go, I'd suspect that the normal wiring to the pump is the problem and, although everything (fuse, etc.) may look OK, the pump is not getting 12V power. If you just DIYed a temporary ‘switched’ 12V feed to the pump’s red and blue power cables and the pump then began to operate, the pressure-switch must have been in a state that permitted the pump to run. In fact, I’m confident that the suggestion that the pressure-switch might be faulty is wrong, particularly as the pump now starts up and switches off as it should. Regarding blowing through the pump’s water inlet and outlet to back-pressure the pressure-switch, if you’ve done this ‘by mouth', forget it. You MIGHT be able to disturb the switch using compressed air, but you certainly won’t be able to do this using your lungs. I’m 99.9% sure your original problem is electrical and totally unrelated to the pump’s pressure-switch, and this is evidenced by the fact that you were able to get the pump to operate simply by providing a new 12V feed. It’s possible that disconnecting the pump and fiddling about with it has rectified a poor electrical connection somewhere, but if there are electrical connections on or near the pump that you can easily disconnect, clean and reconnect, I suggest you do this. A replacement pressure-switch kit can be bought for about £16 in the UK and should be straightforward to fit (diagram here) https://www.fiamma.it/en/aqua-8-en/aqua-8-en I don't believe it would be needed in this instance, but the replacement option is there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grantos Posted August 28, 2020 Author Share Posted August 28, 2020 Thanks for all your help Derek, through your info the water system is not a mystery to me now and I won't be afraid to tackle any problems I have with it in the future. Appreciate the time you have spent with me on the issue I had. Be Safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 28, 2020 Share Posted August 28, 2020 You are welcome... For general technical background you might consider obtaining the late-John Wickersham’s book “The Motorcaravan Manual" https://www.amazon.co.uk/Motorcaravan-Manual-Choosing-Using-Maintaining/dp/1844250474 (A 2ndhand copy for about £10 would be fine, or see if your local library can get one for you to look at.) Did you ever find a new reversing light? If not, I think it might be one of the “Rinder” light-units advertised here https://www.dwornikengineering.co.uk/motorhome-rear-lights.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grantos Posted September 4, 2020 Author Share Posted September 4, 2020 Spot on Derek got my new light cluster from them, well pleased and thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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