Is my rhd uk reg Chausson an import? Ford say it is!

[clearprop]

Hi troops. We had three problems on our van which all started when it was only 11 months old. It was cutting out and would not re start for 20 to 30 minutes, the starter would not operate every time and it had a long delay from pressing the throttle to anything happening. Under the consumer rights act we could have rejected it after the first breakdown when Fords attempt at repair did not work. After a further attempt Ford asked us if we would run the van to see if it was cured but it continued breaking down. By chance it went in to Ford for another job doing and we were told that they had found the main engine management control unit (PCM) had various faults and would need replacing. We now have the van back and all the faults have gone, HOORAY at last we have a van that is fit for purpose. Now the bad news. Ford said we would only have to pay 10% of the £2,000 bill for the PCM which was better than nothing. They later said we would have to pay the full amount as the vehicle was an import from France. We pointed out that many motorhomes are built outside the UK. We rang C&M club legal and they said it is not an import. It is RHD and was registered in the UK on the day we picked it up with only 30 miles on the clock. You already loose one year of warranty with Ford just because it's a motorhome (2years instead of3). We will be going to the ombudsman and possibly the small claims court. BEWARE make sure you know exactly what you are buying!

[Derek Uzzell]

Welcome to the Out&AboutLive forums, Paul.

 

All Chausson coachbuilt motorhomes are built in a huge factory at Tournon-sur-Rhone in southern France, so any new Chausson motorhome sold in the UK is ‘technically’ an imported vehicle - but that’s equally true of every other motorhome not built in the UK wherever the conversion process took place (France, Germany, Italy, Spain, etc. etc.)

 

There can be significant warranty variations according to where a new motorhome is marketed and sold ‘first retail’. in 2005 I bought a new Ford Transit-based Hobby motorhome in Germany, drove it to the UK and registered it here. The (German) Ford warranty provided with that motorhome was 2 years duration, whereas the warranty for a Transit-based motorhome (say an Auto-Sleepers model) bought new in the UK had a 3 years duration. The LHD or RHD factor wasn’t an issue - what mattered was the country in which the motorhome was initially sold retail (Germany in my case).

 

Auto-Trail build motorhomes on Ford Transit chassis and details of the 2021 Ford (3 years) warranty can be read here

 

https://www.auto-trail.co.uk/assets/pdfs/Auto-Trail_Warranty_2021.pdf

 

Historically, the Ford warranty relating to motorhomes built on Transit underpinnings has sometimes been a minefield (forum example here)

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Ford-Chausson-gremlins-back-to-bite-us-/50142/

 

You haven’t said when you bought your Chausson, but if it is still within the Ford warranty period (or was within the warranty period when the PCM was replaced) provided that you were the Chausson’s first retail buyer when it was sold in the UK the fact that the Chauson had been built in France should be irrelevant and you should not have to pay the repair costs.

 

What does the Ford warranty documentation provided with you motorhome say? And what is the attitude of the Chausson dealership from whom you bought the motorhome?

 

Although this issue will need to be resolved between you and Ford, a customer-friendly dealership should be expected to provide assistance as, if Ford is going to take this stance with you, they would probably do eaxactly the same with the dealership’s other UK Chausson buyers.

[andy mccord]

Rubbish...my ecu failed on my benimar and it didn't cost me a penny to replace it

 

Andy

[Brian Kirby]

I too had a LHD Ford Transit based motorhome, imported from a German dealership in 2007. It suffered a few Ford based faults in early ownership and the UK Ford dealership to which I took the van said it came up on their system as a "visitor". This they rectified by transferring it (either directly, or through Ford UK) onto Ford's UK vehicle database.

 

The warranty term was two years (the standard EU wide warranty term) as the Transit chassis had originally been manufactured and supplied for registration outside the UK. However, this had no impact whatever on Ford's, or the UK dealership's, ability and willingness to rectify any of the defects that arose.

 

My understanding at that time, and since, is that the selling dealer in the UK is responsible for notifying the base vehicle manufacturer (i.e. in your case Ford) of the UK registration of the vehicle for warranty purposes at which point the base vehicle warranty should be the same as for any other UK sold vehicle (i.e. in your case, three years).

 

I agree with Derek that this will be best pursued initially via the dealer who sold, and registered, your van. Also, as Derek says, have you checked the Ford warranty booklet that came with your van, as that should be clear on its duration?

 

Derek's comment that "You haven’t said when you bought your Chausson, but if it is still within the Ford warranty period (or was within the warranty period when the PCM was replaced) provided that you were the Chausson’s first retail buyer when it was sold in the UK the fact that the Chauson had been built in France should be irrelevant and you should not have to pay the repair costs." is also highly relevant. (My bold above)

 

Personally, I would be very wary of taking to the legal route over the Ford warranty. I would first be inclined to check all of the above, so that you are clear what the warranty says, its duration, and the extent to which you can claim on it (especially if you are not the first owner of the vehicle). I believe the basic "European" two years warranty is transferrable, but do not know about the third year (if relevant).

 

Has the van been taken to the same Ford dealership in all cases? If not, is it possible that the dealerships are not aware of the other problems. If so, what is their opinion of Ford UK's response? Since they know the van's history, and should equally know Ford's warranty terms, they should be willing to intervene with Ford on your behalf to clarify that the failed/corrupted PCM is the common factor in all the faults, and that the problem they are now seeking to disallow is an unresolved issue that first arose within the warranty period. Ford may be unhappy with their ability to correctly identify the cause, but that should not result in a bill to you - although it might have resulted in Ford rejecting payment for some of their booked diagnostic time! ;-)

[clearprop]

Hi troops besides the "import from France" argument, the main issue is that the breaking down problems started when the van was only 11 months old, well within the two year warranty period. The van is now five years old and has only just been cured by Ford. They have now replaced the main engine control unit called a PCM (powertrain control module) The van has now done 250 miles without cutting out, the starter now operates every time (this is also controlled by the PCM) and the acceleration delay is fixed. Each time it went in for a service we told them that the faults are still there. On the first breakdown in March 2017 under the consumer rights act Ford were allowed one attempt at repair and if this fails you have the right to reject. The van broke down again and Ford attempted another repair and asked us if we would run the van to see if the repair had worked, sadly it did not and we have been breaking down on average every 3,500 miles. If we were a delivery van doing 30,000 miles a year we would be breaking down every six weeks! Ford have made us pay for the PCM which has cost us £2,000. Ford said they had found multple faults within the PCM and due to the ongoing problems we would only have to pay 10% of the bill, therefore admitting that the PCM was faulty all along. Up to now Ford have changed the fuel pump relay, the fuel pump in the tank, tightened connections at the PCM and done wiring checks, none of which had cured the fault. The new PCM has cured all three faults in one go but Ford are not budging regards reimbursement.

[Brian Kirby]

Paul, you have referred several time to "Ford". However, I assume all the work to your van, whether under warranty or otherwise, will have been carried out in a (or more than one) Ford approved commercial workshop?

 

Have you been in direct contact with Ford UK's Technical Information Centre over these issues, or have you relied on the garage who carried out the work relaying to you what Ford had told them?

 

My impression is that it is probably the garage that has let you down, by failing to correctly identify and rectify the PCM fault. If they were struggling with this they could (should?) have asked for a Ford technical rep to visit the workshop and advise further. Did that happen?

 

Regarding consumer legislation, it is the dealer who sold you the van who is legally obliged to rectify faults. To the best of my knowledge, if the dealer cannot achieve this, you may reject the goods and are then entitled to a full refund. The question that then arises is whether you are deemed to have "accepted" the goods. If you are deemed to have accepted them, you cannot reject, but the seller remains under an obligation to compensate you for whatever losses you have suffered at his hands. The extent of his liability broadly extends for six years, but depends on when you bought the goods, the amount of time that elapses before you advise him of problem - and whether you have allowed him reasonable time to rectify. The more time that has elapsed, the lower his liability. But, he cannot generally be held responsible for matters of which he has not been notified. At this stage, I think whether he still has liability would have to be determined by the courts, which is why I suggested you consult Citizens' Advice. He may, he may not.

 

As above, Ford's warranty is in addition to consumer rights legislation, and is not subject to it. You seem to have suffered from an intermittent, but persistent, fault that should have been resolved within the warranty period by the garage to which you referred it. You seem to have been very patient with them, perhaps to your disadvantage. That, again, is why I think you should consult Citizens' Advice - because your circumstances are far from straightforward.

 

However, it remains unclear why the matter of the van being imported should have been cited. Was this clarified in writing? I am also puzzled why you were first asked to contribute £200, and why this later rose to £2,000. What reason was given in each case, and do you have written confirmation of both? Beyond this, you say "Ford" have "made" you pay the full sum. However, it must surely be the garage who did the work that you paid?

 

I think you should get all your bills together, right back to that for purchase of the van, plus any written communications you have had from Ford or the garage, and try to assemble all the relevant facts regarding the faults, including when they arose, and take them to Citizens' Advice to talk to one of their legal advisors. It is quite a "long and winding" tale, and may take a while to absorb! :-)

 

I just have this lingering suspicion that because the garage took so long to remedy the defect Ford has rejected the garage's attempts to recover the cost of the PCM under warranty, and they are now "spinning" Fords responses in their own favour! Have they charged you for labour, or only for the PCM?

[clearprop]

Hi Brian.

The garage where we go for servicing and repairs is Trust Ford in Huddersfield. Trust Huddersfield are the ones who said we would only have to pay £200 of the £2,000 parts and labour bill due to the ongoing faults starting during the two year warranty period. After they changed their mind and said we would have to pay the whole bill we complained to Ford UK. They said they would not reimburse saying the van was a French import and told us to take the matter back up with Trust Ford. Trust Ford are now saying they also will not reimburse. We bought the van from Lowdhams in Huddersfield and on one breakdown occasion we told them we were rejecting the vehicle. Lowdhams told us to take it to our usual Ford agent Trust Ford Huddersfield but Trust could not look at it for two months due to been short staffed. Lowdhams said they would take it to Stoneacre Ford in Cleckheaton. Stoneacre diagnosed that the fuel pump in the tank was drawing too much current, which was odd as it has never caused the fuse to blow or even get warm and the fuel pump relay has never failed, so we thought this was not likely to be the cause of it cutting out. Sure enough it carried on breaking down. The bill for this was over £700 as the fuel tank has to be removed to get to the pump, no inspection hatch in van floor! After much argument Lowdhams paid the bill saying "as a good will gesture". We reminded them that the consumer rights act applies and any good will as been by us.

[Derek Uzzell]

This 2016 Practical Motorhome article discussed motorhome warranties

 

https://www.practicalmotorhome.com/advice/your-motorhome-warranty-questions-answered

 

and the Check where the base vehicle comes from! section refers to Ford Transit-based Chausson models.

 

It may well be the case that the duration and terms and conditions of the Ford warranty for a Transit-based motorhome marketed and sold new in the UK and built by a UK motorhome manufacturer (say Auto-Trail) differ from those of a Transit-based motorhome marketed and sold new in the UK and built by a non-UK motorhome manufacturer (say Benimar, Chausson or Roller Team), but the UK buyer should know what the position is warranty-wise from the Ford warranty documentation provided with the motorhome when the buyer took delivery of the vehicle.

 

Brian and I have both asked Paul above what the Ford warranty details say, but Paul has still not commented on that critical point.

[clearprop]

Hi Brian and Derek. Sorry for leaving out the info. When we bought the van new in March 2016 from Lowdhams, we knew it only had a two year Ford warranty but the faults started when the van was just under one year old and continued till the PCM was changed in March this year.As you say the french argument is irrelevant as the consumer rights act still applies. We now have an email from Graham Jones at lawdata acting on behalf of Trust Ford. It states that this is their final decision so we are looking at the ombudsman as the next step then possible small claims court. If you need any more info let me know guys.

Thanks.

Paul.

 

[Keithl]

Paul,

 

As others have said previously you have no legal redress against Ford or the Ford dealer. Your only course of action is against the company who you paid your money to, in this case Lowdhams.

 

Do you have membership of AA, RAC, C&CC or C&MC? If so then seek legal help from them or maybe even your MH or car insurance if that includes legal assistance cover.

 

Keith.

[Brian Kirby]

clearprop - 2021-04-15 9:57 PM

 

Hi Brian and Derek. Sorry for leaving out the info. When we bought the van new in March 2016 from Lowdhams, we knew it only had a two year Ford warranty but the faults started when the van was just under one year old and continued till the PCM was changed in March this year.As you say the french argument is irrelevant as the consumer rights act still applies. We now have an email from Graham Jones at lawdata acting on behalf of Trust Ford. It states that this is their final decision so we are looking at the ombudsman as the next step then possible small claims court. If you need any more info let me know guys.

Thanks.

Paul.

I really don't think this is for the ombudsman, which is why I think that if you intend pursuing it you should seek independent legal advice from someone who specialises in consumer law with particular reference to disputes involving defective vehicles. Keith's suggestions of sources for this advice are all good.

 

First, this has dragged on for four years, which puts you at a considerable disadvantage.

 

Second the tale has more twists than the proverbial Scotsman's walking stick! It is complicated, and will be very difficult to present to a court (of whatever type) with clarity.

 

Third, you have three possible traders/sellers who may be implicated.

 

Fourth, and final, the dealer who sold you the van is the last man standing but, IMO, is the weakest. They are a motorhome dealer, who can claim they have already made a substantial contribution to your costs without, as I understand it, accepting liability (the "goodwill gesture"). They can also claim that they have no specialist knowledge of the mechanical elements of motorhomes, nor any direct commercial relationship with Ford, and did all they reasonably could by referring you to an authorised Ford garage (Stoneacre) at Cleckheaton for them to carry out the repairs under Ford's warranty. That they were fully booked is largely irrelevant. There were other suitable Ford garages, notably Trust Ford Huddersfield, to whom you could then have turned.

 

With a two year warranty, already nearly one year down, time was a consideration in seeking to get the matter resolved as quickly as possible.

 

I'm puzzled that the fuel pump diagnosis was (apparently) not remedied under warranty, because if it was, what was the £700 bill for? The actual location of the fuel tank has no relevance. Was it because Chausson had obstructed access to the fuel pump, so the additional labour involved in removing/refitting the fuel tank was not accepted by Ford under warranty? If so, Lowdham were arguably liable, as they sold a vehicle that could not reasonably be repaired as intended by its maker. (It would then have been for Lowdham to recover their loss from Chausson, who had blocked the access to the pump.)

 

Otherwise, a repair under warranty should not have incurred cost to you. If not the above, had the Ford warranty already expired by the time the van was taken to Stoneacre? If so, bearing in mind that the fault first emerged at 11 months, what caused that delay?

 

But, more importantly (assuming the van was still within its warranty period when taken to Stoneacre), IMO, the actual liability seems to me to lie between Stoneacre, and Trust Ford, to both of whom whom you turned for remedy of the defect.

 

Stoneacre should have made a correct diagnosis of the cause, but seem to have failed. In that respect, it seems to me they failed on two counts. First, to deal with the defect satisfactorily within Ford's warranty, and second, by (apparently) mis-diagnosing the defective PCM as a defective fuel pump. It might be argued that by failing to effectively remedy the fault they failed in their contractual duty to you, and in so doing were in breach of contract under common law - but now, three, or more, years later?

 

Unless the van was still within its warranty period when first taken to Trust Ford, and unless you advised them at that time that there was an outstanding (but intermittent) warranty issue that needed resolution, why would they begin a diagnostic investigation?

 

The dates will be critical, but my impression is that the warranty may already have expired by the time the van was first taken to Trust Ford. Is that correct?

 

If it is, then the only remaining culprit seems to be Stoneacre, by failing to effectively diagnose and rectify the defect, which they could not do as the van seems next to have gone to Trust Ford. If it is not - and Trust Ford were advised of the pre-existing defect and asked to investigate under warranty - then they seem to assume primary liability.

 

If the warranty had expired by the time it was taken to Trust Ford, the remaining question is how did that come about? It seems there must have been a delay of around 13 months between you first noticing the fault (when the van was 11 months old), and the van getting to a garage that might have been able to remedy it under warranty - had it been presented earlier.

 

The problem, more simply put, is the passage of time. What happened during those four years between first detection of the fault and its eventual (apparent) remedy by replacing the PCM - during which time the Ford warranty expired and various potentially liable actors were engaged?

 

In the absence of some clear understanding of who was actually progressing remedy of this defect during that time, my impression at present is that you're flogging a legally long dead horse, and are risking even more money by trying to resuscitate it. As with vets, legal costs are substantial and trying to push this further all I can see is greater cost and no legal remedy. But then, I'm not a lawyer! :-D

[Keithl]

Maybe a good case for Judge Rinder (?)

[clearprop]

Hi Brian,Keith and all.

Yes Brian the van was only eleven months old when it started breaking down / failing to turn on starter motor / not pulling when throttle pressed. It only went to Stoneacre because trust ford in Huddersfield could not look at it for two months. Initially Trust were only charging us 10% of the £2,000 bill for the PCM as they could see it had been an ongoing problem from the initial breakdown at eleven months old. The AA breakdown reports show it breaks down through loss of fuel pressure, we now know it was the PCM that was switching the fuel pump relay off. They then said the van was French so we would have to pay the full amount which we did to get the van back. We have lots of proof that the van was never used or registered in France and Lowdhams have confirmed this telling us that the vans are always delivered on a transporter wagon so we cannot see why Trust are insisting on saying it is a french van. The french issue to me is irrelevant as the van was under Fords two year warranty when the faults started. The caravan and motorhome club legal dept also cannot understand why Ford think it is French. I have been advised by Caravan Guard (our insurer) legal department to write a final letter before action and send it by registered mail. The motor ombudsman was no help but you have to show you tried other options before going to the small claims court. Will see what happens next!

All the best guys.