John52 Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 malc d - 2021-06-16 4:27 PM Seems to me you blame the media for having a go at Labour - and the voters for not voting for them. The members should be asking themselves ' why ' ;-) I think we know why The Tories are better for the £billionaire 'newspaper' owners domiciled in Her Majesty's Tax Havens They got us out of the EU before the EU could implement an EU-wide Tax Treaty that would have forced them to pay tax like the rest of us. (Before that Murdoch needed Thatcher to help him smash the print unions at Wapping) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 Bulletguy - 2021-06-16 7:36 PM The media did a lot more than "having a go" during Corbyns tenure Malc. It was an incessant constant daily smear attack which at times, the depths to which they plummeted became embarrassing as it was so blatantly obvious what they were doing. Even people who were not Labour were asking on forums, "what is it he's supposed to have said re antisemitism because we can't find anything?" Naturally nobody could provide anything for them. Exactly But because it said it in the Daily Mail a significant minority believed it. .. and even quoted the Daily Mail on here without realising how stupid it made them look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 Brian Kirby - 2021-06-16 7:40 PM In terms of tenure, Blair was the most successful PM Labour has ever had. Yes, Iraq was an appalling misjudgement, but Iraq wasn't what got Labour elected in the first place. What got them elected was what they offered compared to a very tired Conservative offering. Now Blair is dismissed as a proto-Tory, but what he offered was what people wanted, Right time right place again Tories were so mired in sleaze even Murdoch couldn't support them Tory Bliar, like BoJo, could see what people wanted and promised it. Best thing Bliar did was the Freedom of Information Act which he later said was his biggest mistake I guess the left wingers had prevailed on him to do it. (I put that before the Good Friday agreement because BoJo is trashing that, wheras we still have the Freedom of Information Act, for the time being at least) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 John52 - 2021-06-17 8:48 AM Bulletguy - 2021-06-16 7:36 PM The media did a lot more than "having a go" during Corbyns tenure Malc. It was an incessant constant daily smear attack which at times, the depths to which they plummeted became embarrassing as it was so blatantly obvious what they were doing. Even people who were not Labour were asking on forums, "what is it he's supposed to have said re antisemitism because we can't find anything?" Naturally nobody could provide anything for them. Exactly But because it said it in the Daily Mail a significant minority believed it. .. and even quoted the Daily Mail on here without realising how stupid it made them look. So, in order to have a Labour government in the future, forget about policies, all we need to do is close down the Daily Mail. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 malc d - 2021-06-17 9:33 AM So, in order to have a Labour government in the future, forget about policies, all we need to do is close down the Daily Mail. :-D Thats the problem Daily Mail has been proven to be an unreliable source more times than I can count. Its become a standing joke with even you-tube videos mocking it. But people still read it - and even quote it as a reliable source. They still believe Boris Johnson's promises despite all his lies. Then can't admit they have been fooled - however blatantly obvious that is. How do you get through to people like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 John52 - 2021-06-17 10:12 AM malc d - 2021-06-17 9:33 AM So, in order to have a Labour government in the future, forget about policies, all we need to do is close down the Daily Mail. :-D Thats the problem Daily Mail has been proven to be an unreliable source more times than I can count. Its become a standing joke with even you-tube videos mocking it. But people still read it - and even quote it as a reliable source. They still believe Boris Johnson's promises despite all his lies. Then can't admit they have been fooled - however blatantly obvious that is. How do you get through to people like that? So, boiled down to the basics, the reason Labour under Corbyn got insufficient votes is the daily Mail? Nothing at all to do with what Corbyn's Labour offered, or appeared to represent? Unless Labour supporters begin thinking about how to win elections, I foresee Conservative governments for the foreseeable future, to the point at which no single Labour MP has any experience of government. What then? "Please vote for us because we've no idea what we're doing - but we'd like to learn on the job at your expense"! That should do it! :-D Does anyone really believe that? Wakey! wakey! - the left of the party is the albatross around its neck - not the right wing bias of the media. If Labour talks sense, the media have to reflect that sense, even if they seek to spin it. The DM is not the media, albeit it is influential in certain quarters. This "the DM distorts, and its readers are too dim to see through the distortions" tack is an electoral dead end. Its readers are a substantial part of the electorate. Calling a big chunk of the electorate dim isn't the best way to persuade them to switch from their natural comfort zone to Labour. If you can't beat them, join them - or die! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 John52 - 2021-06-17 10:12 AM malc d - 2021-06-17 9:33 AM So, in order to have a Labour government in the future, forget about policies, all we need to do is close down the Daily Mail. :-D Thats the problem Daily Mail has been proven to be an unreliable source more times than I can count. Its become a standing joke with even you-tube videos mocking it. But people still read it - and even quote it as a reliable source. If you are right, it seems that for the Labour party, the situation looks hopeless. No sign of the Daily Mail going away. Maybe the Labour party should close down ? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtainRaiser Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 Brian Kirby - 2021-06-17 10:44 AM John52 - 2021-06-17 10:12 AM malc d - 2021-06-17 9:33 AM So, in order to have a Labour government in the future, forget about policies, all we need to do is close down the Daily Mail. :-D Thats the problem Daily Mail has been proven to be an unreliable source more times than I can count. Its become a standing joke with even you-tube videos mocking it. But people still read it - and even quote it as a reliable source. They still believe Boris Johnson's promises despite all his lies. Then can't admit they have been fooled - however blatantly obvious that is. How do you get through to people like that? So, boiled down to the basics, the reason Labour under Corbyn got insufficient votes is the daily Mail? Nothing at all to do with what Corbyn's Labour offered, or appeared to represent? Unless Labour supporters begin thinking about how to win elections, I foresee Conservative governments for the foreseeable future, to the point at which no single Labour MP has any experience of government. What then? "Please vote for us because we've no idea what we're doing - but we'd like to learn on the job at your expense"! That should do it! :-D Does anyone really believe that? Wakey! wakey! - the left of the party is the albatross around its neck - not the right wing bias of the media. If Labour talks sense, the media have to reflect that sense, even if they seek to spin it. The DM is not the media, albeit it is influential in certain quarters. This "the DM distorts, and its readers are too dim to see through the distortions" tack is an electoral dead end. Its readers are a substantial part of the electorate. Calling a big chunk of the electorate dim isn't the best way to persuade them to switch from their natural comfort zone to Labour. If you can't beat them, join them - or die! Ever watched the paper reviews on Newsnight or the morning programmes? Do they delve into the details or cover the headlines? That's the message the man in the street gets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 CurtainRaiser - 2021-06-17 10:51 AM.....................Ever watched the paper reviews on Newsnight or the morning programmes? Do they delve into the details or cover the headlines? That's the message the man in the street gets. To me, you are the man in the street, as I'm sure I am to you. But openly writing off our "fellow men (and women) in the street" as shallow, unthinking, idiots just doesn't seem much of an election gambit to me. Time to challenge them (subtly) to start thinking, rather than dismissing them? You have to start from where you are, and work with what you've got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 I Think Brian makes a good point. Its ok on here for a bit of Hollywood drama and fun calling the electorate thickos but its not done any good really in the big wide world has it? I think we made that mistake with Brexit (Those of us that opposed it). All its done is harden resolve really. Having said that of course the media is hugely influential in directing the electorate. Personally I think the Express is worse than the Mail these days. Just cast your mind back to 2017 though and the election. Corbyn came way too close for comfort back then for the right wing media moguls. So there really was a hatchet job on him in the two years leading up to the last election. He went from the hero of Glastonbury to the Zero of nobody in two years. However media or not either the Labour party get behind Starmer or its screwed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 Barryd999 - 2021-06-17 11:32 AM I Think Brian makes a good point. Its ok on here for a bit of Hollywood drama and fun calling the electorate thickos but its not done any good really in the big wide world has it? I think we made that mistake with Brexit (Those of us that opposed it). All its done is harden resolve really. . Indeed. If only the fanatical Remainers had given any proper consideration to the concerns of the Leavers, I've no doubt we could have scraped through with a Remain vote. As it is, we are now left to make the most of the new sunlit uplands as best we can. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 malc d - 2021-06-17 1:21 PM Barryd999 - 2021-06-17 11:32 AM I Think Brian makes a good point. Its ok on here for a bit of Hollywood drama and fun calling the electorate thickos but its not done any good really in the big wide world has it? I think we made that mistake with Brexit (Those of us that opposed it). All its done is harden resolve really. . Indeed. If only the fanatical Remainers had given any proper consideration to the concerns of the Leavers, I've no doubt we could have scraped through with a Remain vote. As it is, we are now left to make the most of the new sunlit uplands as best we can. :-( True but I think many like myself were so incensed and outraged at the lies that were being told it was difficult to keep calm and focus on the benefits of staying members. You were fighting a losing battle with the media though anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted June 17, 2021 Author Share Posted June 17, 2021 malc d - 2021-06-17 1:21 PM Barryd999 - 2021-06-17 11:32 AM I Think Brian makes a good point. Its ok on here for a bit of Hollywood drama and fun calling the electorate thickos but its not done any good really in the big wide world has it? I think we made that mistake with Brexit (Those of us that opposed it). All its done is harden resolve really. . Indeed. If only the fanatical Remainers had given any proper consideration to the concerns of the Leavers, I've no doubt we could have scraped through with a Remain vote. As it is, we are now left to make the most of the new sunlit uplands as best we can. :-( You mean like the lie about giving the £350 million it sends to the EU every week to the NHS, and lying about "80 million Turks coming to UK" because Turkey is joining the EU? The entire Leave campaign was built on packs of lies, peddling myths and misinformation for those daft enough to believe what they were being fed, even master manipulator and chief architect of the campaign, Cummings, admits that in his Spectator blog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarySueLola Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 Barryd999 - 2021-06-15 10:25 AM malc d - 2021-06-15 9:50 AM Barryd999 - 2021-06-15 8:00 AM LOL! True dat! Been watching a documentary series about fisherman and none of them seem to have a good word to say about Johnson and Brexit now but as said, at least they admit they were conned. I should think that the majority of people have now accepted the fact that we have left the EU - and that Boris Johnson is fireproof, whatever he does. :-D I also watched a program the other night where they were talking to people from Boston in lincs who had the highest percentage leave vote in the country because of Immigration and they also feel like they have been thrown under the bus as nothing has changed. So then if you consider the appalling handling of not only Brexit but the pandemic you have to ask yourself why is he still so popular and "Fireproof"? I keep thinking its got to be people saving face because they are so heavily invested but its just mad for it to be that isnt it? That's the trouble, the knuckle-dragging Brexit voters all thought that the immigrants would get pale white skin, blond hair and talk with plummy posh british accents overnight when we left the EU - no wonder they're disappointed. Yep - Johnson's popularity is purely down to embarrasment by the knuckle-draggers; we know some Brexit voters who say he's had a tough time, he's a new dad, he caught covid, he's been betrayed by Cummings so we ought to feel for him. None of this stands up if we challenge it but a bit like someone who believes in a god, they have to stay convinced or run the risk of looking stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 Bulletguy - 2021-06-17 2:33 PM malc d - 2021-06-17 1:21 PM Barryd999 - 2021-06-17 11:32 AM I Think Brian makes a good point. Its ok on here for a bit of Hollywood drama and fun calling the electorate thickos but its not done any good really in the big wide world has it? I think we made that mistake with Brexit (Those of us that opposed it). All its done is harden resolve really. . Indeed. If only the fanatical Remainers had given any proper consideration to the concerns of the Leavers, I've no doubt we could have scraped through with a Remain vote. As it is, we are now left to make the most of the new sunlit uplands as best we can. :-( You mean like the lie about giving the £350 million it sends to the EU every week to the NHS, and lying about "80 million Turks coming to UK" because Turkey is joining the EU? No - that's not what I mean at all. I mean the remainers who didn't explain any of the benefits of being in the EU - they were so sure of winning that they didn't think they needed to. When people were concerned about the numbers of immigrants arriving in a very short time period , and feared that schools and the NHS would be overloaded - they weren't re-assured - they were told that they were racist. Calling people names never gets them on your side. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtainRaiser Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 Brian Kirby - 2021-06-17 11:15 AM CurtainRaiser - 2021-06-17 10:51 AM.....................Ever watched the paper reviews on Newsnight or the morning programmes? Do they delve into the details or cover the headlines? That's the message the man in the street gets. To me, you are the man in the street, as I'm sure I am to you. But openly writing off our "fellow men (and women) in the street" as shallow, unthinking, idiots just doesn't seem much of an election gambit to me. Time to challenge them (subtly) to start thinking, rather than dismissing them? You have to start from where you are, and work with what you've got. I was canvassing for the 2019 GE and had those discussions on the doorstep, but you try convincing someone that Corbyn is not a terrorist sympathiser who hates Jews when that is all they have seen on the paper reviews/ read in the papers. Where you could see a difference is across the age demographic, a reflection of where the younger generations get their news - it isn't from TV or newspapers. This is reflected in the way they vote. https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/17/how-britain-voted-2019-general-election And interestingly that same demographic is now leaving Starmer. https://thetab.com/uk/2021/05/07/no-political-party-represents-me-or-young-people-right-now-204495 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 CurtainRaiser - 2021-06-17 4:41 PM Brian Kirby - 2021-06-17 11:15 AM CurtainRaiser - 2021-06-17 10:51 AM.....................Ever watched the paper reviews on Newsnight or the morning programmes? Do they delve into the details or cover the headlines? That's the message the man in the street gets. To me, you are the man in the street, as I'm sure I am to you. But openly writing off our "fellow men (and women) in the street" as shallow, unthinking, idiots just doesn't seem much of an election gambit to me. Time to challenge them (subtly) to start thinking, rather than dismissing them? You have to start from where you are, and work with what you've got. I was canvassing for the 2019 GE and had those discussions on the doorstep, but you try convincing someone that Corbyn is not a terrorist sympathiser who hates Jews when that is all they have seen on the paper reviews/ read in the papers. Where you could see a difference is across the age demographic, a reflection of where the younger generations get their news - it isn't from TV or newspapers. This is reflected in the way they vote. https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/17/how-britain-voted-2019-general-election And interestingly that same demographic is now leaving Starmer. https://thetab.com/uk/2021/05/07/no-political-party-represents-me-or-young-people-right-now-204495 Keir Starmer has had the misfortune of being in the wrong place at the wrong time ( quite the opposite of Boris Johnson ). To take over the Labour party from a disastrous leader like Jeremy Corbyn - at the start of a world wide pandemic - must have been a nightmare for him. The only subject everyone is concentrating on is the pandemic - hardly a good time to be in charge of opposing the government. If all the opinion polls indicate that the majority of young people don't vote - it's not too surprising that the main political parties feel there is no need to consider their problems. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtainRaiser Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 malc d - 2021-06-17 6:27 PM CurtainRaiser - 2021-06-17 4:41 PM Brian Kirby - 2021-06-17 11:15 AM CurtainRaiser - 2021-06-17 10:51 AM.....................Ever watched the paper reviews on Newsnight or the morning programmes? Do they delve into the details or cover the headlines? That's the message the man in the street gets. To me, you are the man in the street, as I'm sure I am to you. But openly writing off our "fellow men (and women) in the street" as shallow, unthinking, idiots just doesn't seem much of an election gambit to me. Time to challenge them (subtly) to start thinking, rather than dismissing them? You have to start from where you are, and work with what you've got. I was canvassing for the 2019 GE and had those discussions on the doorstep, but you try convincing someone that Corbyn is not a terrorist sympathiser who hates Jews when that is all they have seen on the paper reviews/ read in the papers. Where you could see a difference is across the age demographic, a reflection of where the younger generations get their news - it isn't from TV or newspapers. This is reflected in the way they vote. https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/17/how-britain-voted-2019-general-election And interestingly that same demographic is now leaving Starmer. https://thetab.com/uk/2021/05/07/no-political-party-represents-me-or-young-people-right-now-204495 Keir Starmer has had the misfortune of being in the wrong place at the wrong time ( quite the opposite of Boris Johnson ). To take over the Labour party from a disastrous leader like Jeremy Corbyn - at the start of a world wide pandemic - must have been a nightmare for him. The only subject everyone is concentrating on is the pandemic - hardly a good time to be in charge of opposing the government. If all the opinion polls indicate that the majority of young people don't vote - it's not too surprising that the main political parties feel there is no need to consider their problems. :-| You still haven't explained Labour's placing in the 2017 election under Corbyn's disastrous leadership? And remember that this was at a time when some Labour MP'S were prepared to lose the election rather than let Corbyn become PM https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/leaked-labour-report-should-have-been-explosive-scandal/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 CurtainRaiser - 2021-06-18 10:14 AM You still haven't explained Labour's placing in the 2017 election under Corbyn's disastrous leadership? And remember that this was at a time when some Labour MP'S were prepared to lose the election rather than let Corbyn become PM https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/leaked-labour-report-should-have-been-explosive-scandal/ Corbyn spent Christmass volunteering whilst BoJo, (the one who conspired to have a journalist beaten up) was on a Carribean Island as the guest of a £billionaire backer. Yet they painted Corbyn as the nasty one, 'Boris' the friendly affable one - and some people sucked it up :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 So Food Exports to the EU down by half in the first quarter. ... and I guess its even worse than that. Because the half that got through faced increased costs, therefore less profit. :-S Where's pelmetman now *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 CurtainRaiser - 2021-06-18 10:14 AM You still haven't explained Labour's placing in the 2017 election under Corbyn's disastrous leadership? ....... and I don't feel under any obligation to explain it. Jeremy Corbyn always seemed to me to be a reasonable man, who was totally out of his depth as a leader. Whatever was thrown at him was met with ' waffle '- in a time when only sound bites matter, he wanted to answer every question with a long rambling reply, and it didn't work. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 19, 2021 Share Posted June 19, 2021 John52 - 2021-06-18 12:37 PM So Food Exports to the EU down by half in the first quarter. ... and I guess its even worse than that. Because the half that got through faced increased costs, therefore less profit. :-S Where's pelmetman now *-) I suspect much of that food is being sold in the UK ;-) ........... Which should please the Greens latest forum recruit with all those food miles saved B-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted June 19, 2021 Share Posted June 19, 2021 pelmetman - 2021-06-19 9:28 AM John52 - 2021-06-18 12:37 PM So Food Exports to the EU down by half in the first quarter. ... and I guess its even worse than that. Because the half that got through faced increased costs, therefore less profit. :-S Where's pelmetman now *-) I suspect much of that food is being sold in the UK ;-) ........... Which should please the Greens latest forum recruit with all those food miles saved B-) .......... Those few food miles saved, by cancelling imports from our close neighbours ,will be more than cancelled out by all the extra miles travelled by stuff coming from Australia. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 19, 2021 Share Posted June 19, 2021 malc d - 2021-06-19 10:24 AM pelmetman - 2021-06-19 9:28 AM John52 - 2021-06-18 12:37 PM So Food Exports to the EU down by half in the first quarter. ... and I guess its even worse than that. Because the half that got through faced increased costs, therefore less profit. :-S Where's pelmetman now *-) I suspect much of that food is being sold in the UK ;-) ........... Which should please the Greens latest forum recruit with all those food miles saved B-) .......... Those few food miles saved, by cancelling imports from our close neighbours ,will be more than cancelled out by all the extra miles travelled by stuff coming from Australia. :-| Well they could always bung it on the same ship that they send my wine on, now that I no longer buy French wine >:-) .............. BTW I'ts not me who has recently converted to tree hugging and Wokery Malc ;-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.