Importing an Auto Trail Tracker Motorhome to Italy - Vehicle Details

[Derek Uzzell]

The data apparently being requested by the Italian authorities seems to go beyond what is available on even a Type Approved motorhome’s Certificates of Conformity (CoC), let alone the limited amount of information that one might expect to have been filed for a 2003 vehicle.

 

My Type Approved 2015 2-stage-built Rapido’s Fiat CoC carries noise and emissions values and these are just transferred unchanged to the Rapido CoC although adding a bulky rear body would undoubtedly impact on the Fiat-provided data. Unsurprisingly, the Rapido motorhome’s CoCs provide no transmission-related information and neither does the printout a Fiat Professional agent produced for me in 2017.

 

Computerisation was still fairly young in 2003 and, even if Auto-Trail were keeping softcopy records of their motorhome production then, it would be very optimistic to expect such records to have been retained for 18 years.

 

This 2011 discussion may be interest

 

https://britishexpats.com/forum/italy-77/car-registration-italy-please-help-719956/

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

APN01 - 2021-07-09 5:21 PM

 

Hi Brian. Thanks so much for your extensive comments. In retrospect I agree with pretty much all you said. However, as noted elsewhere, the vehicle has already been exported from the UK and so getting it back would presumably mean trucking it back to the UK and then re-importing. By which time the summer could be a distant memory and who knows where we will be with the pandemic. It is a shame. £20000 was about what I paid for it in 2013.

 

Auto Trail themselves note that an owner of a 2004 vehicle had no issues importing the motor home into France with some very basic documentation and FIAT Italy told me that a UK motor home owner in Perugia got everything done within around 10 days regarding importation. Similar aged vehicle I believe. Having emailed the official beforehand I went to the Pisa office of the Ufficio Motorizzazione Civile yesterday to clarify the issue. He either wasn't there or wasn't available. He responds only sporadically to my emails.

 

So. The bottom line is that Auto Trail state that FIAT is responsible for the data. FIAT state that it is Auto Trail. The official at the UMC in Pisa will not supply a definitive list of data. Without the additional data the vehicle is effectively stranded on a campsite in Italy. I am really not sure what else I can do.

 

It seems you caught in a somewhat unreconcilable catch 22. This is mainly the result of the UK adopting (at least for motorhomes) ECWVTA procedures years after the EEC introduced them. Your van was built during that time and hence, although the Fiat base would ordinarily have had a first stage CoC, it seems possible it was exported to the UK without one, as no such document was then required. If anyone is at fault in this, it is successive UK governments.

 

The van has value in UK, albeit it is 18 years old so, if in good condition and as you cannot get it registered in Italy, you seem to face two harsh decisions. 1 scrap it in Italy. 2 Return it to UK, re-register it, and then sell it for the best price you can get.

 

I assume it still has its UK registration plates? If so, have you tried contacting DVLA to see whether they can be reunited with the van? You said above that the vehicle had been "exported" from UK. Was this formalised? Do you still have the relevant paperwork? If you could get DVLA to reinstate the registration (or issue new) and issue a new V5C document, you'd still have to get it MoTd before it could be taxed and insured, but it is possible to drive a vehicle to a test station with an expired test cert.

 

You would have to get it transported back, which would be costly, but with subsequent sale, far less so than a total write-off.

 

Easy to say from a distance, I know, but I'm still inclined to think it would be the least costly and most productive of the options that seem available.

 

At least it might be worth spending some time exploring the cost of shipping it back to a location in which it can be kept off-road until the formalities are completed. The re-registration costs are not significant by comparison. At least you'd then know what your liabilities are, which might help to clarify decision making. Sorry if this seems unsympathetic, it is not intended to be.

[Derek Uzzell]

‘Re-registering’ with the DVLA a vehicle that has been exported from the UK was touched on in 2018 here

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/returning_to_the_uk_with_a_vehic

 

Information on exporting a vehicle from the UK is here

 

https://www.gov.uk/taking-vehicles-out-of-uk

 

and APN01’s earlier postings confirm that this procedure was followed. It’s also worth noting that APN01 has been trying to get the motothome registered in Italy since the start of 2021.

 

(Presumably, even if the motorhome were returned to the UK, registering it with the DVLA would involve APN01 providing an ‘ownership’ permanent UK address.)

 

[APN01]

Hi Brian

 

Thanks so much. The COC issue seems to have been covered off some time ago as the UMC official was aware pretty much from the start that a COC was unavailable for the vehicle - hence the need for the additional technical data. One thing that I am not clear about. The Homologation Department within FIAT UK note that - there is no European approval number as it was not in force when the vehicle was first built - but they have given me a national approval number DBN54739 DN. Previous email traffic would suggest that this is an Italian number as the vehicle was imported directly from Italy and not via FIAT UK.

 

The vehicle has been exported from the UK inasmuch as I have notified the DVLA using the relevant section of the V5C documentation. No choice really. After a year I would either need to re-tax or SORN - which I cannot do if the vehicle is abroad. To re-tax I would need a valid MOT certificate and insurance etc. In any event it was always my intention to import the vehicle. I just would never have believed how complicated and time consuming the process would be. Or potentially impossible. Importing a FIAT Ducato based motorhome into Italy. How difficult could that be?

[APN01]

Thanks Max. It is certainly true that the UMC has been difficult to work with. For months they would not give me a definitive list of data required for the scheda tecnica integrativa. They do however know that a COC would be unavailable for a 2003 vehicle.

 

I have contacted a number of private importation agencies for help but not one of them was interested. A couple of reasons I think. One. After Brexit the rules around the importation of UK vehicles were initially unclear. Second. As two manufacturers are involved with motor homes the process is complex - as I have been finding out over the last months.

 

You are right. Auto Trail VR Ltd are responsible for the final documentation. As FIAT UK note - only they will know what they placed on the market. And the National Caravan Council has also noted that - only the last stage manufacturer can advise on the final technical specification of the vehicle they place on the market.

 

The idea of registering the vehicle as a unique exemplar has come up before although in the dozens and dozens of emails that I have sent I cannot remember where. A very much last resort I would have thought. Thanks again.

[APN01]

Hi Brian. Thank you. To be honest I think there is a process - just very very difficult to navigate. Without a COC the UMC need additional technical documentation which must ultimately come from Auto Trail VR Ltd as the last stage manufacturer - although some of the data will necessarily come from FIAT.

 

Evidently the full dataset must then be signed off by the UK motorisation authorities. Presumably the DVLA - which the DVLA have emailed that they will not do. So another hurdle to jump. Then a vehicle roadworthiness test - so different headlamps at the very least. And then some more paperwork for registration and payment of relevant fees.

 

For my own sanity I am taking this one step at a time. And so for right now focusing on the additional technical data from Auto Trail VR Ltd. Even though the remaining outstanding data is not substantial I think that Derek elsewhere has indicated that getting Auto Trail VR Ltd to submit the full dataset on official documentation may not be straightforward.

 

I am working on my resilience. Thanks again.

[Keithl]

Andrew,

 

It sounds like you are making some progress so keep at it!

 

If the DVLA will not sign off your request then try the VCA (Vehicle Certification Authority) as they are the certification arm of the UK authorities.

 

Keith.

[APN01]

Thank you Derek. The information from Property Guides seems OK but not quite accurate as I understand it. First the sceda tecnica integrativa. Then the roadworthiness test. Then registration with the Pubblico Registro Automobilistico (PRA). I will take another look to make sure.

 

And to be clear that I would expect any documentation from Auto Trail VR Ltd to be in English and the translation into Italian and certification would be my responsibility.

[APN01]

Hi Derek. I agree about the gear ratios and will do some more research a little later. Or contact FIAT here in Italy. The same with the noise value. Emissions was the only other thing. The Homologation Department within FIAT UK note that - emission data is unlikely to be available as (it was) not necessary to approve for Co2 - in 2003 presumably.

 

Regarding Auto Trail VR Ltd. They were apparently liaising at management level with FIAT UK around the additional data required but then emailed that it was not available due to obsolete computer systems. Now that I have provided much of the additional data myself either via the Homologation Department within FIAT UK or from V5C/Owner Handbook information, I would hope that integration of the data into some official format acceptable to the UMC would not be asking too much.

 

And a big thank you to all contributors who have helped me a great deal with the above.

[APN01]

Hi Brian. That is a really good idea. I will give it a try. Thank you. The whole issue around FIAT has been a bit inexplicable to be honest. Auto Trail VR Ltd state that FIAT UK at management level cannot provide any data for the vehicle due to obsolete computer systems.

 

However, FIAT UK Homologation Department state that as the vehicle was a direct import from Italy they don't hold any data for the vehicle in any case. The Homologation Department has however been really helpful with regard to interpreting the VIN plate data for me and giving me some more general vehicle information.

 

With regard to FIAT Italy, some months ago they emailed me the following link: https://www.homologationfca.eu/s/?language=it. Which takes you to a Homologation Portal. Select: Italy. English. FIAT Professional. Registration of Vehicle Originally from Abroad. In the Detail section there are 4 options:

 

European Certification. 100 euro.

European Certification + Technical Sheet + Certificate of Origin. 175 euro.

Technical Sheet. 100 euro.

Technical Sheet + European Certification. 150 euro.

 

I called FIAT Italy to ask which option I needed for the UMC. They couldn't tell me. And then Auto Trail VR Ltd stated that FIAT computer systems cannot return data for my vehicle in any event. I am reluctant to spend a bunch of money to be told that the data is not available. Any thoughts welcome.

[APN01]

Thanks so much. To be honest I think that I am nearly there. I would have thought that the gear ratios would be available somewhere - FIAT UK and/or Italy. And I would hope that the UMC would accept that emission/noise values would not be available for a 2003 vehicle. And then getting Auto Trail VR Ltd to stick it all on one official piece of documentation.....

 

And thank you for the link. I will take a look later. Much appreciated.

[APN01]

Not at all. Thanks for your comments. I am very close with the required dataset and so hopefully getting it back to the UK would not be necessary. It stresses me out just thinking about it - time and money and aggravation.

 

The Customer Services Manager @ Auto Trail VR Ltd is back from holiday on 01 September. I have emailed all of the information from the FIAT Homologation Department,V5C & Owner Handbook. Much will depend on the view of Auto Trail.

[Derek Uzzell]

APN01 - 2021-08-25 11:24 AM

 

...However, FIAT UK Homologation Department state that as the vehicle was a direct import from Italy they don't hold any data for the vehicle in any case...

 

This will be the the case when Fiat provides a UK motorhome manufacturer with a base-vehicle for conversion into a motorhome. The base-vehicle will be sold ‘direct’ to the converter (who will have stated the exact specification required and agreed a price) and Fiat UK won’t be involved.

 

The data-sheet print-out a UK Fiat Professional agency produced for me tells a similar story, with my Rapido's Fiat Ducato ‘camping-car’ chassis being assigned directly to the Rapido factory at Mayenne in France on 10 January 2015 and conversion into a motorhome and delivery to a UK dealership then taking a further 3 months.

[Derek Uzzell]

The gear ratios for a Ducato with the 2.0JTD motor are as follows

 

1st 3.727:1

2nd 1.783:1

3rd 1.194:1

4th 0.875:1

5th 0.673:1

REVERSE 3.154:1

 

These are taken from an old Fiat ‘elearn’ online document that does not state the final-drive ratio. Some of the ratios match those I gave in my 22 August 2021 2:13 PM posting for a 2006 5-speed Ducato X250, so - if you need a final-drive ratio value - I suggest you use 4.933:1

[APN01]

Brilliant. Thanks so much. Noise and emissions data if available and I think that would about cover it. Much appreciated.

[APN01]

I have re-read your post and want to make sure that I fully understand this issue if I can. As you note - Auto Trail VR Ltd have notated - Not Available (Vehicle Not Type Approved) - under European Approval Code on the data sheet. However FIAT UK have given me a National Approval Number DGM 54739 OM which I believe relates to Italy.

 

The Italian authorities are also asking for emissions data (NOX - particulates - CO2) but your post suggests that this data would not be available. More generally, Auto Trail VR Ltd have notated Not Available (Vehicle Not Type Approved) under Type - Variant - Version on the data sheet. But would this not simply be Auto Trail Tracker EKS?

[APN01]

Thanks Keith. Good idea. I was aware of the VCA from previous research and talked to someone at their Milan office a while ago around importation. He could not help but maybe they can with certification. Fingers crossed.

 

Andrew

[APN01]

The shortest of updates. So. I forwarded data from the forum, V5C, vehicle, owners handbook and the very helpful Gary Burton @ Stallantis, to Auto Trail VR Ltd. On 06 September the Customer Services Manager forwarded a dataset on Auto Trail documentation using asterixis to indicate where the data had not originated from Auto Trail VR Ltd. However, when I compared it with data originally provided by Auto Trail in July and with data from Gary, there were some significant discrepancies and omissions. So I have sent it back for clarification and amendment.

 

I did contact FIAT dealers in the area but was referred back to the main office in Milan. As indicated earlier, I had contacted FIAT in Milan a few months ago and was given a link to a Homologation Portal in order to pay to download data. However FIAT are unable to tell me which documentation I would need to download for the Italian motorisation authorities and so I am reluctant to spend the money on documentation which may be irrelevant.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

APN01 - 2021-08-27 12:15 PM

I have re-read your post and want to make sure that I fully understand this issue if I can. As you note - Auto Trail VR Ltd have notated - Not Available (Vehicle Not Type Approved) - under European Approval Code on the data sheet. However FIAT UK have given me a National Approval Number DGM 54739 OM which I believe relates to Italy.

The Italian authorities are also asking for emissions data (NOX - particulates - CO2) but your post suggests that this data would not be available. More generally, Auto Trail VR Ltd have notated Not Available (Vehicle Not Type Approved) under Type - Variant - Version on the data sheet. But would this not simply be Auto Trail Tracker EKS?

I think your problem may be that although the Fiat base vehicle should have been Type Approved (in Italy), the vehicle as finished by Auto Trail did not at that time have to have Type Approval for the British market.

 

To the best of my knowledge motorhomes imported into UK from within the EU would have had Type Approval in their country of origin, but their Certificates of Conformity were either not supplied to UK retailers, or were binned in the UK as irrelevant.

 

So, Auto Trail will have nothing they can provide you, as no such data would have been generated at the time your van was converted.

[Derek Uzzell]

Logically, if the Ducato chassis on which Auto-Trail built the “Tracker” in 2003 had been Type Approved by Fiat, there ought to be a Type Approval Number on the motorhome’s Fiat VIN plate.

 

“DGM 54739 OM” is mentioned elsewhere online relating to early-2000s Fiat Ducatos and is usually referred to as a homologation or approval number. But that doesn’t mean that - back then - Fiat will have measured/recorded the types of data that’s nowadays mandatory for motorhomes with ECWVTA.

 

This document provided information on Type Approval

 

http://www.transportoffice.gov.uk/crt/repository/CONT077317.pdf

 

The system got off the ground in 2007, but the regulations only became mandatory for motorhomes from 29 April 2012. Type Approval was important for motorhome manufacturers who were marketing their products throughout Europe, but of little value to UK motorhome builders who had no interest in targeting Continental Europe - so why bother with ECWVTA until compelled to do so.

[APN01]

Many thanks. A quick update. Auto Trail VR Ltd have now supplied the additional technical data required by the Italian authorities - much of it supplied by myself or information from this forum for which I am very grateful.

 

It would appear that the Italian authorities are prepared to accept the National Approval Code on the VIN plate and have also waived the requirement that the information is certified by the DVLA or VCA. Which is good because neither of them will certify it.

 

I am now in the process of paying an outrageous amount of money for a translation of the data and then back to the Italian authorities with fingers very much crossed. Still a ways to go. Vehicle test. Different headlights for sure. Insurance & taxes. More documentation. But some progress.

 

 

[APN01]

Yes. Auto Trail VR Ltd have consistently stated that the information I needed was not a requirement until 2012. However they have forwarded the additional technical data sheet which I am in the process of having translated.

 

The Italian authorities have accepted the National Approval Code on the VIN plate and the absence of noise/emissions data. Also that the data cannot be verified by the DVLA or VCA.

 

As noted elsewhere, much of the data from Auto Trail was either supplied by myself or from information via the forum. (Auto Trail were of the view that the information was unavailable due to the age of the vehicle). For which I am very grateful. I would not have known where to look for much of it to be honest.

 

Quite a few hurdles still to jump but some progress at least.

[Brian Kirby]

All sounds encouraging, so well done. Lets hope the progress is maintained and the vehicle accepted and successfully registered. Keep us posted!

[Derek Uzzell]

Just out of interest, MMM Magazine’s June and October 2021 issues have articles relating to a 2020 UK-registered right-hand-drive 2020 Dreamer panel-van-conversion being imported to Spain by a lady taking up Spnaish residency.

 

The cost of the exercise is predicted to be at least €21,000, comprising modifications (headlight change), registration tax, customs duty, VAT, compliancy inspection and annual road tax. (Apparently two of the major charges - customs duty and VAT - would have been avoidable prior to Brexit.)

[APN01]

Thank you. To update. The documentation has now been accepted by the Italian motorisation authorities. The next step is a collaudo - the Italian version of an MOT.

 

There are two issues which immediately come to mind. One. Headlights. I think that I have read somewhere that the entire units need to be replaced. Hopefully I can pick up something second hand if this is the case. Two. Insurance. The vehicle has been exported from the UK but not yet imported into Italy. It must pass the vehicle test first. I am not sure how I get insurance for a vehicle without a valid number plate.

 

However, progress as you note. Thanks again for the information and advice.