John52 Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 Tracker - 2021-09-30 1:25 PM I grew up on a council estate........ So from the very beginning you were luckier than the current generation who are at the mercy of private landlords. How long is the waiting list for a council house now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 Have a look here, from Economics help: https://tinyurl.com/y3ey68f4 Tells quite an interesting story in a variety of ways. We bought our first house, in North Kent, in late 1969, from a developer, for £5095. It was handed over in "Builders Finish", and we had to decorate it over the next six months during which time we rented it. At the end of the six months the decorations were inspected and passed, and the rental payments became the deposit. I think the mortgage was based on 2 times my income + 1 times Carole's. We just made it! As the above link shows, that is a huge difference from today. That was pure luck. So was having a sufficient income to get a mortgage - and having a wife who's income was a bit higher than mine, and rising faster! Having a London salary and a house in Kent helped. London prices were out of reach. The price was spending hours commuting by train - and a good chunk of our money for the pleasure of doing so! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 1, 2021 Share Posted October 1, 2021 Tracker - 2021-09-30 1:25 PM I grew up on a council estate, made a pigs ear of secondary education, did not do national service, did not go to university and yet I managed to navigate the book of life OK all without moaning or whingeing or blaming anyone else when things didn't go exactly my way. Always look on the bright side of life and make the most of every opportunity - it works for me. You were lucky :D ........I was mostly brought up 1 of 6 in a 2 bed rented flat :-| ........ Talking of education......Both of my nephews followed the family trait of being rubbish at school :D .......... They both have successful careers and own their own home B-) ......... As a family we have always looked after oursleves rather than blame the government/system/mental health/etc etc B-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted October 1, 2021 Share Posted October 1, 2021 pelmetman - 2021-10-01 8:41 AM As a family we have always looked after oursleves rather than blame the government/system/mental health/etc etc B-) .......... You inherited a house so someone looked after you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 1, 2021 Share Posted October 1, 2021 John52 - 2021-10-01 9:03 AM pelmetman - 2021-10-01 8:41 AM As a family we have always looked after oursleves rather than blame the government/system/mental health/etc etc B-) .......... You inherited a house so someone looked after you. We already had a mortgage free detached house ;-) ........... So I'd looked after myself :D ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted October 1, 2021 Share Posted October 1, 2021 pelmetman - 2021-10-01 8:41 AM As a family we have always looked after oursleves rather than blame the government/system/mental health/etc etc B-) .......... That's a novel idea - do you think it will ever catch on? I read somewhere that a 'common sense' app was to be made available on smartphones but the human rights lobbyists objected on the grounds that everyone has the right to be selfish and inconsiderate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted October 1, 2021 Share Posted October 1, 2021 Tracker - 2021-10-01 11:40 AM pelmetman - 2021-10-01 8:41 AM As a family we have always looked after oursleves rather than blame the government/system/mental health/etc etc B-) .......... That's a novel idea - do you think it will ever catch on? I read somewhere that a 'common sense' app was to be made available on smartphones but the human rights lobbyists objected on the grounds that everyone has the right to be selfish and inconsiderate. :-( Daily Mail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 1, 2021 Share Posted October 1, 2021 Tracker - 2021-10-01 11:40 AM pelmetman - 2021-10-01 8:41 AM As a family we have always looked after oursleves rather than blame the government/system/mental health/etc etc B-) .......... That's a novel idea - do you think it will ever catch on? I read somewhere that a 'common sense' app was to be made available on smartphones but the human rights lobbyists objected on the grounds that everyone has the right to be selfish and inconsiderate. Not in Snowflake land :D ......... Everything has to be someone elses fault nowadays *-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted October 1, 2021 Author Share Posted October 1, 2021 pelmetman - 2021-10-01 8:41 AM As a family we have always looked after oursleves rather than blame the government/system/mental health/etc etc B-) .......... I don't think your family's plan to educate yourselves, instead of bothering the national education system, went too well. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 1, 2021 Share Posted October 1, 2021 malc d - 2021-10-01 12:40 PM pelmetman - 2021-10-01 8:41 AM As a family we have always looked after oursleves rather than blame the government/system/mental health/etc etc B-) .......... I don't think your family's plan to educate yourselves, instead of bothering the national education system, went too well. ;-) It seems to be working fine from where I'm sat here in Sunlit Uplands land B-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtainRaiser Posted October 1, 2021 Share Posted October 1, 2021 pelmetman - 2021-10-01 12:55 PM malc d - 2021-10-01 12:40 PM pelmetman - 2021-10-01 8:41 AM As a family we have always looked after oursleves rather than blame the government/system/mental health/etc etc B-) .......... I don't think your family's plan to educate yourselves, instead of bothering the national education system, went too well. ;-) It seems to be working fine from where I'm sat here in Sunlit Uplands land B-) ......... Got your windows in yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 1, 2021 Share Posted October 1, 2021 CurtainRaiser - 2021-10-01 12:56 PM pelmetman - 2021-10-01 12:55 PM malc d - 2021-10-01 12:40 PM pelmetman - 2021-10-01 8:41 AM As a family we have always looked after oursleves rather than blame the government/system/mental health/etc etc B-) .......... I don't think your family's plan to educate yourselves, instead of bothering the national education system, went too well. ;-) It seems to be working fine from where I'm sat here in Sunlit Uplands land B-) ......... Got your windows in yet? Nope.........But our garden is nearly finished B-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted October 1, 2021 Share Posted October 1, 2021 malc d - 2021-10-01 12:40 PM pelmetman - 2021-10-01 8:41 AM As a family we have always looked after oursleves rather than blame the government/system/mental health/etc etc B-) .......... I don't think your family's plan to educate yourselves, instead of bothering the national education system, went too well. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted October 1, 2021 Author Share Posted October 1, 2021 pelmetman - 2021-10-01 8:41 AM As a family we have always looked after oursleves rather than blame the government/system/mental health/etc etc B-) .......... So, when you said, at 10:36 am yesterday, that you had a " sh1te comprehensive education " was that was the FIRST time that you have ever blamed anyone else ? :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 2, 2021 Share Posted October 2, 2021 malc d - 2021-10-01 5:22 PM pelmetman - 2021-10-01 8:41 AM As a family we have always looked after oursleves rather than blame the government/system/mental health/etc etc B-) .......... So, when you said, at 10:36 am yesterday, that you had a " sh1te comprehensive education " was that was the FIRST time that you have ever blamed anyone else ? :-| Nope...... I blame Labour and Blair for starting a illegal war and igniting the Islamic touch paper *-) ....... I blame our So Called Justice System for being on the side of the criminals and not the victims :-| ....... I blame the EU freedom of movement for keeping wages in the UK for the working man artificially low >:-) ........ I can go on :D ............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted October 2, 2021 Share Posted October 2, 2021 pelmetman - 2021-10-02 1:06 PM I blame Labour and Blair for starting a illegal war and igniting the Islamic touch paper *-) ....... ......... Why did Johnson support it? (instead of voting against it like Corbyn did) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted October 2, 2021 Author Share Posted October 2, 2021 pelmetman - 2021-10-02 1:06 PM malc d - 2021-10-01 5:22 PM pelmetman - 2021-10-01 8:41 AM As a family we have always looked after oursleves rather than blame the government/system/mental health/etc etc B-) .......... So, when you said, at 10:36 am yesterday, that you had a " sh1te comprehensive education " was that was the FIRST time that you have ever blamed anyone else ? :-| Nope...... I blame Labour and Blair for starting a illegal war and igniting the Islamic touch paper *-) ....... I blame our So Called Justice System for being on the side of the criminals and not the victims :-| ....... I blame the EU freedom of movement for keeping wages in the UK for the working man artificially low >:-) ........ I can go on :D ............ I'm quite sure you could go on with even more twaddle - just proving that it's not true that you don't complain. If you believe that Labour and Blair lit the Islamic touch paper in 2003 - - - - - who do you blame for igniting the Islamic touch paper two years before, when they demolished the twin towers in the U.S. ? ? :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted October 2, 2021 Share Posted October 2, 2021 John52 - 2021-10-02 1:31 PM pelmetman - 2021-10-02 1:06 PM I blame Labour and Blair for starting a illegal war and igniting the Islamic touch paper *-) ....... ......... Why did Johnson support it? (instead of voting against it like Corbyn did) Because like Johnson, Pelmet was among the cheerleaders whooping with glee as the first cruise missiles went in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted October 2, 2021 Share Posted October 2, 2021 malc d - 2021-10-02 2:38 PM pelmetman - 2021-10-02 1:06 PM malc d - 2021-10-01 5:22 PM pelmetman - 2021-10-01 8:41 AM As a family we have always looked after oursleves rather than blame the government/system/mental health/etc etc B-) .......... So, when you said, at 10:36 am yesterday, that you had a " sh1te comprehensive education " was that was the FIRST time that you have ever blamed anyone else ? :-| Nope...... I blame Labour and Blair for starting a illegal war and igniting the Islamic touch paper *-) ....... I blame our So Called Justice System for being on the side of the criminals and not the victims :-| ....... I blame the EU freedom of movement for keeping wages in the UK for the working man artificially low >:-) ........ I can go on :D ............ I'm quite sure you could go on with even more twaddle - just proving that it's not true that you don't complain. If you believe that Labour and Blair lit the Islamic touch paper in 2003 - - - - - who do you blame for igniting the Islamic touch paper two years before, when they demolished the twin towers in the U.S. ? ? :-| Brian spent ages trying to educate him on that very question Malc a few weeks ago so good luck. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 2, 2021 Share Posted October 2, 2021 pelmetman - 2021-10-02 1:06 PM malc d - 2021-10-01 5:22 PM pelmetman - 2021-10-01 8:41 AM As a family we have always looked after oursleves rather than blame the government/system/mental health/etc etc B-) .......... So, when you said, at 10:36 am yesterday, that you had a " sh1te comprehensive education " was that was the FIRST time that you have ever blamed anyone else ? :-| Nope...... 1 I blame Labour and Blair for starting a illegal war and igniting the Islamic touch paper *-) ....... 2 I blame our So Called Justice System for being on the side of the criminals and not the victims :-| ....... 3 I blame the EU freedom of movement for keeping wages in the UK for the working man artificially low >:-) ........ 4 I can go on :D ............ 1 How about having a look here: https://tinyurl.com/checsdc about the Balfour Declaration. That, IMO, is where the trouble really started. All later events merely exacerbate what that brief document unleashed. The guilty party was the UK, in 1917. 2 It is called a justice system because it seeks to resolve criminality in public, under judicial supervision, in front of a panel of 12 jurors drawn from the population at large. It is the job of the prosecution to prove to the reasonable satisfaction of the jury that the accused is guilty, and it is the job of the defence to prove that s/he is not. How is such a system on the side of criminals? It is what the whole civilised world does. 3 Then you are blaming the wrong institution. Freedom of movement merely allows members of other EU states, subject to a number of reasonable pre-conditions, to live, work, and study in, and visit, other EU states. The EU has enlarged several times since, as the EEC, it was formed. Freedom of movement was there from the outset, in 1957. The UK, along with Ireland and Denmark did not join until 1973. Greece joined in 1981, Spain, and Portugal in 1986. So, it was not until Spain joined in 1986 that you gained your (now lost) automatic right to spend winters there with no checks on entry. Before then, crossing the Spanish frontier was much more fun! I suspect that the freedom of movement rights that you're referring to came when Malta, Cyprus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Hungary joined in 2004, and when Bulgaria and Romania joined in 2007. These were less economically developed countries than the existing members, and I had strong reservations about the economic consequences of them joining. The preceding UK governments (Conservative, under Thatcher and Major) had been was strongly in favour, though on the basis that "By expanding eastwards .......................... the European Union would become so big that political union would be impossible. A bigger EU would evolve into a looser union of free trading nation states, with weaker institutions at its centre. It was the way to put the brake on Franco-German and Benelux ambitions for ever closer union, while widening the internal market and promoting stability between east and west. The vision of Europe that Margaret Thatcher had outlined in her Bruges speech in 1988 would come into being." So it was your favourite political party that calculatingly and destructively laid the cuckoos egg in the EU nest. Their ploy largely failed but, under the Blair government of 2004, unrestricted freedom of movement for the inhabitants of those 10, relatively less developed, countries was gained. Bit of an own goal, that! But hey, they are your party of choice. (Lesson there, somewhere? :-D) There were provisions in the accession treaties allowing existing member states to restrict the full operation of freedom of movement for up to seven years. Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain all did this, the UK and Ireland did not. So, in they came, thanks to Blair leaving the front door wide open. When Bulgaria and Romania joined in 2007, the UK government, now under Brown, restricted movement under the provisions of the accession treaties, and the feared flood did not materialise. But, all the above were the actions of UK governments. There was no obligation, under the accession treaties, to have granted unrestricted access as Blair did. That the UK was almost the only EU member not to impose restrictions naturally focused the migrations on the UK. You mention that this wave of migration resulted in pay levels in the UK being suppressed. That was the intention, not of the EU, but of the UK government, as a hedge against inflation. Even then, no-one forced UK employers to employ migrants at rates that undercut prevailing rates at the time. It is a natural characteristic of the labour market that when there is a surplus of labour over jobs, pay rates fall. That is how capitalism works. When labour is short, the opposite happens. That was the reason both Conservatives and Labour were in favour of the two eastern enlargements. So, don't try to shift the blame onto the EU for the combined actions of your own government, employers, and a free labour market. It is your elected MPs, in conjunction with UK employers, who were responsible for the mass influx of migrants from the old eastern bloc, and the consequent (intended) suppression of UK pay rates. 4 So no, don't go on - at least not until you've educated yourself with a few relevant facts. It's all there, if only you'd just look, and read. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted October 2, 2021 Share Posted October 2, 2021 That's all well and good Brian but is there any evidence that Labour would have done any different - never mind better - I seem to recall they too have had their chances over the years? Perhaps it is the whole rotten self interested party politics system we have in this country and our obsession with the human rights of the few versus the human rights of the many? Everyone knows their rights but few accept their responsibilities and I don't see that changing any time soon - do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtainRaiser Posted October 2, 2021 Share Posted October 2, 2021 Tracker - 2021-10-02 9:24 PM That's all well and good Brian but is there any evidence that Labour would have done any different - never mind better - I seem to recall they too have had their chances over the years? Perhaps it is the whole rotten self interested party politics system we have in this country and our obsession with the human rights of the few versus the human rights of the many? Everyone knows their rights but few accept their responsibilities and I don't see that changing any time soon - do you? But we have rarely had a Labour government, take away the war monger Blair a red Tory, and the fact is that in the last 100 years Labour has been in power for only 18 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 CurtainRaiser - 2021-10-02 10:04 PM in the last 100 years Labour has been in power for only 18 years. During which time they got Tracker the NHS and the council house he was very fortunate to grow up in, compared to what you could rent for that money now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 Tracker - 2021-10-02 9:24 PM our obsession with the human rights of the few versus the human rights of the many? well there was Her Majesty's Forces (except when it comes to paying for them when they are ours) preventing court papers being served on her son. Let alone beng extradited as we would be. .. any other examples? PS: Examples of human rights that apply to some and not others as your post implies. Maybe the police protection afforded to the rich and powerful but not the rest of us? Banned from searching their estates but not our homes; https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/25/revealed-police-barred-from-searching-queens-estates-for-looted-artefacts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 Brian Kirby - 2021-10-02 6:45 PM pelmetman - 2021-10-02 1:06 PM malc d - 2021-10-01 5:22 PM pelmetman - 2021-10-01 8:41 AM As a family we have always looked after oursleves rather than blame the government/system/mental health/etc etc B-) .......... So, when you said, at 10:36 am yesterday, that you had a " sh1te comprehensive education " was that was the FIRST time that you have ever blamed anyone else ? :-| Nope...... 1 I blame Labour and Blair for starting a illegal war and igniting the Islamic touch paper *-) ....... 2 I blame our So Called Justice System for being on the side of the criminals and not the victims :-| ....... 3 I blame the EU freedom of movement for keeping wages in the UK for the working man artificially low >:-) ........ 4 I can go on :D ............ 1 How about having a look here: https://tinyurl.com/checsdc about the Balfour Declaration. That, IMO, is where the trouble really started. All later events merely exacerbate what that brief document unleashed. The guilty party was the UK, in 1917. 2 It is called a justice system because it seeks to resolve criminality in public, under judicial supervision, in front of a panel of 12 jurors drawn from the population at large. It is the job of the prosecution to prove to the reasonable satisfaction of the jury that the accused is guilty, and it is the job of the defence to prove that s/he is not. How is such a system on the side of criminals? It is what the whole civilised world does. 3 Then you are blaming the wrong institution. Freedom of movement merely allows members of other EU states, subject to a number of reasonable pre-conditions, to live, work, and study in, and visit, other EU states. The EU has enlarged several times since, as the EEC, it was formed. Freedom of movement was there from the outset, in 1957. The UK, along with Ireland and Denmark did not join until 1973. Greece joined in 1981, Spain, and Portugal in 1986. So, it was not until Spain joined in 1986 that you gained your (now lost) automatic right to spend winters there with no checks on entry. Before then, crossing the Spanish frontier was much more fun! I suspect that the freedom of movement rights that you're referring to came when Malta, Cyprus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Hungary joined in 2004, and when Bulgaria and Romania joined in 2007. These were less economically developed countries than the existing members, and I had strong reservations about the economic consequences of them joining. The preceding UK governments (Conservative, under Thatcher and Major) had been was strongly in favour, though on the basis that "By expanding eastwards .......................... the European Union would become so big that political union would be impossible. A bigger EU would evolve into a looser union of free trading nation states, with weaker institutions at its centre. It was the way to put the brake on Franco-German and Benelux ambitions for ever closer union, while widening the internal market and promoting stability between east and west. The vision of Europe that Margaret Thatcher had outlined in her Bruges speech in 1988 would come into being." So it was your favourite political party that calculatingly and destructively laid the cuckoos egg in the EU nest. Their ploy largely failed but, under the Blair government of 2004, unrestricted freedom of movement for the inhabitants of those 10, relatively less developed, countries was gained. Bit of an own goal, that! But hey, they are your party of choice. (Lesson there, somewhere? :-D) There were provisions in the accession treaties allowing existing member states to restrict the full operation of freedom of movement for up to seven years. Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain all did this, the UK and Ireland did not. So, in they came, thanks to Blair leaving the front door wide open. When Bulgaria and Romania joined in 2007, the UK government, now under Brown, restricted movement under the provisions of the accession treaties, and the feared flood did not materialise. But, all the above were the actions of UK governments. There was no obligation, under the accession treaties, to have granted unrestricted access as Blair did. That the UK was almost the only EU member not to impose restrictions naturally focused the migrations on the UK. You mention that this wave of migration resulted in pay levels in the UK being suppressed. That was the intention, not of the EU, but of the UK government, as a hedge against inflation. Even then, no-one forced UK employers to employ migrants at rates that undercut prevailing rates at the time. It is a natural characteristic of the labour market that when there is a surplus of labour over jobs, pay rates fall. That is how capitalism works. When labour is short, the opposite happens. That was the reason both Conservatives and Labour were in favour of the two eastern enlargements. So, don't try to shift the blame onto the EU for the combined actions of your own government, employers, and a free labour market. It is your elected MPs, in conjunction with UK employers, who were responsible for the mass influx of migrants from the old eastern bloc, and the consequent (intended) suppression of UK pay rates. 4 So no, don't go on - at least not until you've educated yourself with a few relevant facts. It's all there, if only you'd just look, and read. :-( I admire your patience Brian :-D Bloody hard work But I fear it will be wasted again :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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