Deletion of the

[John52]

Derek Uzzell - 2021-12-24 9:29 AM

 

It means that if a thread has been deliberately dragged off topic (in Chatterbox or in any of the other forums) it's likely to be edited.

 

If Chatterboxers want to rabbit on about Brexit ad infinitum on Brexit-related threads, that's fine. If they decide to infect other non-Brexit-related threads with the Brexit virus, that's not.

 

Problem is that Brexit is affecting many other things right now.

Which makes it very difficult to file every topic in the right pigeon hole

Although I can see how important that is to you ;-)

[John52]

malc d - 2021-12-24 12:05 PM

 

pelmetman - 2021-12-22 10:21 PM

 

So just what can YOU BLAME on Brexit? >:-) ........

 

5.......1.2 million job vacancies

 

 

 

I suspect a large proportion of those vacancies are for all the extra people required to fill in all the extra forms needed for imports and exports.

 

So they are just an additional cost of trade = higher prices.

 

:-(

 

Well we are certainly paying higher prices for our imports.

But we can't charge higher prices for our exports

Despite all the extra costs and 25% tariffs on our exports

Because EU and US customers can trade freely elsewhere

So UK plc will be making a lot less money

For which the poorest will suffer the most :-(

[John52]

malc d - 2021-12-24 12:05 PM

I suspect a large proportion of those vacancies are for all the extra people required to fill in all the extra forms needed for imports and exports.

 

.. and all the other pooper scoopers hired to clean up after Boris Johnson

.. and the spin doctors and personal photographers hired at our expense because he doesn't trust the media to present the images he wants https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/17/cabinet-office-to-hire-photographer-in-effort-to-level-up-governments-image

[Guest pelmetman]

John52 - 2021-12-24 3:23 PM

 

malc d - 2021-12-24 12:05 PM

I suspect a large proportion of those vacancies are for all the extra people required to fill in all the extra forms needed for imports and exports.

 

.. and all the other pooper scoopers hired to clean up after Boris Johnson

.. and the spin doctors and personal photographers hired at our expense because he doesn't trust the media to present the images he wants https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/17/cabinet-office-to-hire-photographer-in-effort-to-level-up-governments-image

 

So says the forum Pooper Dumper *-) .........

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

malc d - 2021-12-24 12:05 PM

 

pelmetman - 2021-12-22 10:21 PM

 

So just what can YOU BLAME on Brexit? >:-) ........

 

5.......1.2 million job vacancies

 

 

 

I suspect a large proportion of those vacancies are for all the extra people required to fill in all the extra forms needed for imports and exports.

 

So they are just an additional cost of trade = higher prices.

 

:-(

 

You're obviously talking out of your buttocks Malc *-) ..........

 

Have you looked at your local job adverts?.......perhaps you could post a example? ;-) .........

 

Coz there's not a single job down here for a post Brexit pen pusher >:-) .........

[CurtainRaiser]

pelmetman - 2021-12-24 4:07 PM

 

malc d - 2021-12-24 12:05 PM

 

pelmetman - 2021-12-22 10:21 PM

 

So just what can YOU BLAME on Brexit? >:-) ........

 

5.......1.2 million job vacancies

 

 

 

I suspect a large proportion of those vacancies are for all the extra people required to fill in all the extra forms needed for imports and exports.

 

So they are just an additional cost of trade = higher prices.

 

:-(

 

You're obviously talking out of your buttocks Malc *-) ..........

 

Have you looked at your local job adverts?.......perhaps you could post a example? ;-) .........

 

Coz there's not a single job down here for a post Brexit pen pusher >:-) .........

 

Well there's 350 on this site alone.

 

https://www.totaljobs.com/jobs/import-clerk

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

CurtainRaiser - 2021-12-24 4:15 PM

 

pelmetman - 2021-12-24 4:07 PM

 

malc d - 2021-12-24 12:05 PM

 

pelmetman - 2021-12-22 10:21 PM

 

So just what can YOU BLAME on Brexit? >:-) ........

 

5.......1.2 million job vacancies

 

 

 

I suspect a large proportion of those vacancies are for all the extra people required to fill in all the extra forms needed for imports and exports.

 

So they are just an additional cost of trade = higher prices.

 

:-(

 

You're obviously talking out of your buttocks Malc *-) ..........

 

Have you looked at your local job adverts?.......perhaps you could post a example? ;-) .........

 

Coz there's not a single job down here for a post Brexit pen pusher >:-) .........

 

Well there's 350 on this site alone.

 

https://www.totaljobs.com/jobs/import-clerk

 

 

Hmmm 350 out of 1.2 million........so you being a maffmaticion......what TINY fraction is that? (lol) (lol) (lol) ........

 

Plus they're BRITISH pen pushers......NOT EU >:-) .........

 

 

[CurtainRaiser]

pelmetman - 2021-12-24 4:18 PM

 

CurtainRaiser - 2021-12-24 4:15 PM

 

pelmetman - 2021-12-24 4:07 PM

 

malc d - 2021-12-24 12:05 PM

 

pelmetman - 2021-12-22 10:21 PM

 

So just what can YOU BLAME on Brexit? >:-) ........

 

5.......1.2 million job vacancies

 

 

 

I suspect a large proportion of those vacancies are for all the extra people required to fill in all the extra forms needed for imports and exports.

 

So they are just an additional cost of trade = higher prices.

 

:-(

 

You're obviously talking out of your buttocks Malc *-) ..........

 

Have you looked at your local job adverts?.......perhaps you could post a example? ;-) .........

 

Coz there's not a single job down here for a post Brexit pen pusher >:-) .........

 

Well there's 350 on this site alone.

 

https://www.totaljobs.com/jobs/import-clerk

 

 

Hmmm 350 out of 1.2 million........so you being a maffmaticion......what TINY fraction is that? (lol) (lol) (lol) ........

 

Plus they're BRITISH pen pushers......NOT EU >:-) .........

 

 

216 on this site https://uk.indeed.com/Import-Clerk-jobs

 

70 here in Manchester, presumably for just the airport https://www.reed.co.uk/jobs/import-clerk-jobs-in-manchester

 

Or 420 further afield https://www.reed.co.uk/jobs/import-clerk-jobs-in-manchester

 

So that's a 1,000 odd in a couple of searches, all additional costs for industry to carry, all costs that make British industry less competitive.

 

Well done.

[thebishbus]

Is this off topic ?

The problem as I see it, is that a lot of the remainers now rejoiners do not want to accept the fact that we have left the EU. They pinprick everything they can find to fault the move, not accepting, for instance that a lot of our problems are Covid related and not Brexit. They are not prepared as a lot of remaimers are, to make Brexit a success. As is shown on Chatterbox as they have virtually taken it over with their warped political, must always be right, and have the last word views . No wonder most normal people ignore Chatterbox.

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2021-12-24 9:05 AM

1 Interesting how Pelmetman's entry into this thread (that enquired about removal of another thread) immediately threw the discussion way off topic into the same old Big Brexit argument.

2 I'm minded to delete all the entries from Pelmetman's posting of 22 December 2021 5:00 PM onwards and then freeze the thread.

3 Just because this is Chatterbox doesn't mean that threads are immune to the Grim Reaper ...

1 Well, Derek, that post was a bit of a case of "People who live in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones"! :-) Given the nature of Dave's (Pelmetman's) intervention, I suppose it was inevitable that the thread went off topic. After all, it follows a well established precedent - going back to Samson in the temple! Up to that point, all was a commendably (IMO) calm, polite discussion around the slightly delicate topic of querying the moderation of a particular string. Then in lunges hobnails with his "Bollox's" and "LOSERS", and the fuse was laid and lit. The rest was the pretty much inevitable consequence.

 

2 The Chatterbox forum is sub-headed "Chat about anything and everything". The clear caveat is that "anything and everything" must respect Warners rules. So yes, it does get daft, though it can be very funny, and at times even informative. I find it mildly therapeutic under present circumstances, but also strangely compulsive as people reveal their views, biases, attitudes, and points of view.

 

But, if amputation is to be the prescribed remedy, I'd suggest it might be more productive to remove Pelmetman's 22 December 2021 5:00 PM post as well, as leaving that as the last post seems likely to merely re-kindle the spark that originally lit the fuse!

 

3 But is anything, or any one of us, immune to the Grim Reaper? Now there's a happy thought! Merry Christmas everyone. :-D

[Tracker]

thebishbus - 2021-12-24 4:31 PM

 

Is this off topic ?

The problem as I see it, is that a lot of the remainers now rejoiners do not want to accept the fact that we have left the EU. They pinprick everything they can find to fault the move, not accepting, for instance that a lot of our problems are Covid related and not Brexit. They are not prepared as a lot of remaimers are, to make Brexit a success. As is shown on Chatterbox as they have virtually taken it over with their warped political, must always be right, and have the last word views . No wonder most normal people ignore Chatterbox.

 

I was just about to make the same comments more or less?

 

Perhaps it is time that Chatterbox was cleaned up and returned as a NON political chat forum and anyone mentioning the B##### or C#### words be given an automatic 48 hours suspension?

 

Why the blazes does a motorhome forum needs so much political clap trap - from all sides?

 

We could always discuss bad spelling and grammar and the general dumbing down of the nation?

 

Happy Christmas and a healthy New Year to all our readers.

 

 

 

[CurtainRaiser]

Tracker - 2021-12-24 4:58 PM

 

thebishbus - 2021-12-24 4:31 PM

 

Is this off topic ?

The problem as I see it, is that a lot of the remainers now rejoiners do not want to accept the fact that we have left the EU. They pinprick everything they can find to fault the move, not accepting, for instance that a lot of our problems are Covid related and not Brexit. They are not prepared as a lot of remaimers are, to make Brexit a success. As is shown on Chatterbox as they have virtually taken it over with their warped political, must always be right, and have the last word views . No wonder most normal people ignore Chatterbox.

 

I was just about to make the same comments more or less?

 

Perhaps it is time that Chatterbox was cleaned up and returned as a NON political chat forum and anyone mentioning the B##### or C#### words be given an automatic 48 hours suspension?

 

Why the blazes does a motorhome forum needs so much political clap trap - from all sides?

 

Question marks just to annoy anyone who don't like bad grammar.

 

We could always discuss bad spelling and grammar and the general dumbing down of the nation?

 

Seems to me thou dost protesteth too much?

 

Why don't you and Bishbus try and tell us the benefits of Brexit, because it seems to me looking at it from a Motorhomers perspective their are many downsides, even Pelmetman is trying to find away around the 90 in 180. So go on then enlighten us and tell us what benefits there are for motorhome owners?

 

Oh and sorry to ask a question but it's very difficult to have a discussion if you just write random statements.

[malc d]

thebishbus - 2021-12-24 4:31 PM

 

The problem as I see it, is that a lot of the remainers now rejoiners do not want to accept the fact that we have left the EU.

 

They pinprick everything they can find to fault the move, not accepting, for instance that a lot of our problems are Covid related and not Brexit.

 

They are not prepared as a lot of remaimers are, to make Brexit a success.

 

.

 

Well, I was a Remainer - but I'm not a Re-Joiner, and accepted years ago that we have left the EU.

 

All I've been asking for is a list - even a short one - of how Brexit has benefitted the man in the street, so I too, can look forward to the sunlit uplands.

 

How will we measure " Brexit success " ?

 

So far no-one has come up with anything but diversionary name calling.

 

:-|

[Tracker]

CurtainRaiser - 2021-12-24 5:05 PM

 

Tracker - 2021-12-24 4:58 PM

 

thebishbus - 2021-12-24 4:31 PM

 

Is this off topic ?

The problem as I see it, is that a lot of the remainers now rejoiners do not want to accept the fact that we have left the EU. They pinprick everything they can find to fault the move, not accepting, for instance that a lot of our problems are Covid related and not Brexit. They are not prepared as a lot of remaimers are, to make Brexit a success. As is shown on Chatterbox as they have virtually taken it over with their warped political, must always be right, and have the last word views . No wonder most normal people ignore Chatterbox.

 

I was just about to make the same comments more or less?

 

Perhaps it is time that Chatterbox was cleaned up and returned as a NON political chat forum and anyone mentioning the B##### or C#### words be given an automatic 48 hours suspension?

 

Why the blazes does a motorhome forum needs so much political clap trap - from all sides?

 

Question marks just to annoy anyone who don't like bad grammar.

 

We could always discuss bad spelling and grammar and the general dumbing down of the nation?

 

Seems to me thou dost protesteth too much?

 

Why don't you and Bishbus try and tell us the benefits of Brexit, because it seems to me looking at it from a Motorhomers perspective their are many downsides, even Pelmetman is trying to find away around the 90 in 180. So go on then enlighten us and tell us what benefits there are for motorhome owners?

 

Oh and sorry to ask a question but it's very difficult to have a discussion if you just write random statements.

 

After your 48 hour suspsension for using the B word you can of course under your freedom of speech rights ask any question you like.

However I feel no compunction to reply as I really do not care enough about things over which I have no control to worry about or investigate and I have no desire to discuss it with you or anyone else so if you want a discussion on either of your obsessive topics, find someone else, 'cos it won't be with me.

You may if you wish ask me again in 5 years time when the current situation should hopefully have passed, assuming I have not passed too that is!

As I said 'why does a motorhome forum need political clap trap'?

[CurtainRaiser]

Tracker - 2021-12-24 5:35 PM

 

CurtainRaiser - 2021-12-24 5:05 PM

 

Tracker - 2021-12-24 4:58 PM

 

thebishbus - 2021-12-24 4:31 PM

 

Is this off topic ?

The problem as I see it, is that a lot of the remainers now rejoiners do not want to accept the fact that we have left the EU. They pinprick everything they can find to fault the move, not accepting, for instance that a lot of our problems are Covid related and not Brexit. They are not prepared as a lot of remaimers are, to make Brexit a success. As is shown on Chatterbox as they have virtually taken it over with their warped political, must always be right, and have the last word views . No wonder most normal people ignore Chatterbox.

 

I was just about to make the same comments more or less?

 

Perhaps it is time that Chatterbox was cleaned up and returned as a NON political chat forum and anyone mentioning the B##### or C#### words be given an automatic 48 hours suspension?

 

Why the blazes does a motorhome forum needs so much political clap trap - from all sides?

 

Question marks just to annoy anyone who don't like bad grammar.

 

We could always discuss bad spelling and grammar and the general dumbing down of the nation?

 

Seems to me thou dost protesteth too much?

 

Why don't you and Bishbus try and tell us the benefits of Brexit, because it seems to me looking at it from a Motorhomers perspective their are many downsides, even Pelmetman is trying to find away around the 90 in 180. So go on then enlighten us and tell us what benefits there are for motorhome owners?

 

Oh and sorry to ask a question but it's very difficult to have a discussion if you just write random statements.

 

After your 48 hour suspsension for using the B word you can of course under your freedom of speech rights ask any question you like.

However I feel no compunction to reply as I really do not care enough about things over which I have no control to worry about or investigate and I have no desire to discuss it with you or anyone else so if you want a discussion on either of your obsessive topics, find someone else, 'cos it won't be with me.

You may if you wish ask me again in 5 years time when the current situation should hopefully have passed, assuming I have not passed too that is!

As I said 'why does a motorhome forum need political clap trap'?

 

Well I don't know if you noticed but some of us were discussing it, if you don't feel the need, then fine - don't join in. Although you seem keen to jump in with your pennies worth when it suits you?

 

But if you suggest that all political threads should be banned then where do you stop? Is Grenfell banned, speeding legislation, the NHS ? Life is political, the alternative is that chatterbox can return to the discussions you seem to enjoy. (First thread on a quick look back to see how Chatterbox used to look before us Remoaners spoke out. )

 

"There is a huge difference between the educated responsible examples you quote and the great unwashed, uneducated mass of humanity looking for a better life at our expense.

Like many I welcome the former but not the latter as their kind of multiculturalism we can well do without.

I am all for people creating a better life for themselves but not by bu**ering up my country that I have worked hard and paid a lot of taxes into over many years to help create and I resent being asked to give it away to the great unwashed where ever they come from.

-----

Always look on the bright side of life."

 

"There is no doubt in my mind that a disproportionate volume of crime is related to non white perpetrators but there is also a large element of home grown 'I want' crime based on it being easier to rob, steal, wound or even kill to get waht they want than it is go get off their backsides and work for a living.

It coincides with the dumbing down of the nation where it seems normal for the have nots to expect the haves to fund their lifestyle either by government handout or charity donations.

-----

Always look on the bright side of life."

 

I don't see mention of motorhomes anywhere?

 

Would that really be a nicer place? Because if you think it would there are a whole bunch of forums led by Tommy Ten Names you can join? You probably bump into Anthhhhony there!

[Bulletguy]

 

Brians post yesterday was a perfect summary.

 

Pleading for the abolition of an open forum because "the other side" has the better (or better expressed) arguments at a point in time is defeatism. It is tantamount to pleading that the right has no arguments, so the other lot should be silenced.

 

The answer is to mount a better argument, not to destroy the forum of debate.

 

I'd put it stronger than that as imo it's bordering on totalitarianism.

 

I also find it more than a little odd that those attempting to shut down debate about Brexit rarely post in the sub-forum they want shut down.

[Brian Kirby]

thebishbus - 2021-12-24 4:31 PM

Is this off topic ?

The problem as I see it, is that a lot of the remainers now rejoiners do not want to accept the fact that we have left the EU. They pinprick everything they can find to fault the move, not accepting, for instance that a lot of our problems are Covid related and not Brexit. They are not prepared as a lot of remaimers are, to make Brexit a success. As is shown on Chatterbox as they have virtually taken it over with their warped political, must always be right, and have the last word views . No wonder most normal people ignore Chatterbox.

Strictly, I suppose it is, as it doesn't address the question of the deleted strings.

 

But as you've raised the points, I'll give my own reactions, not as a representative of any group.

 

I do not want to accept that we have left, but I have to, don't I? It is a fact, so I have to accept it. But that does not mean that I welcome it, or that I should do so. I am not persuaded that it was the "right" decision for the UK. Those who promoted Brexit made many claims for it, and I await the evidence that those claims were soundly based.

 

On that, due to Covid, the jury remains out, and it may not be possible to unpick the extent to which Covid has torpedoed the Brexit project for a number of years yet - if ever. It will always be a topic of argument among academics and economists as there can never be a comparative proof. It was an act of faith.

 

Having sad that, nothing that I could see before the referendum, or that I have been able to see since, persuades me that those arguments were well founded.

 

I do not understand what "making Brexit a success" means, or how my failure to embrace it wholeheartedly might affect its eventual outcome. What are we supposed to do to bring about success, and what does "success" actually mean?

 

How can any subject be debated in the absence of viewpoints? You allege that those who favoured remain present "warped political, must always be right, and have the last word views". But is that not equally true for those who promoted Brexit? And then? Are trenchant views not to be expected on any matter of national significance on which there is division? There is a detectable tendency for some Brexiters to say, in terms, "we won, so shut up and go away, and stop raising awkward questions". I get some of that from your post above.

 

If, as you imply, you are seeking national harmony, it might help to that end if those who advocate Brexit would take the time to explain to those who can't see the advantages, where, and what, they are. Harmony is unlikely to result from abrupt rebuffal. I have asked several times if anyone can set out what these advantages actually are, and how they are to come about. I assume that "success" should mean that our national prosperity should increase, and with that that we should all begin to enjoy increases in our standards of living, housing, health and social care, employment, education, and national infrastructure. So, if that is the objective, how does leaving the EU contribute? That is what I want explaining.

 

When I have an answer that convinces me, and I can see it is working, I shall be satisfied that I was wrong. Is that unreasonable? After, Britain is just as much my country as it is anyone else's, so am I not entitled to be shown the basis for the path we have now embarked upon, the more so because I greatly fear that it is the wrong path, and will prove to the detriment of my children and grand children?

[John52]

Bulletguy - 2021-12-24 6:52 PM

I also find it more than a little odd that those attempting to shut down debate about Brexit rarely post in the sub-forum they want shut down.

 

They used to post a lot more when they were promoting Brexit

[John52]

pelmetman - 2021-12-24 4:01 PM

 

John52 - 2021-12-24 3:23 PM

 

malc d - 2021-12-24 12:05 PM

I suspect a large proportion of those vacancies are for all the extra people required to fill in all the extra forms needed for imports and exports.

 

.. and all the other pooper scoopers hired to clean up after Boris Johnson

.. and the spin doctors and personal photographers hired at our expense because he doesn't trust the media to present the images he wants https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/17/cabinet-office-to-hire-photographer-in-effort-to-level-up-governments-image

 

So says the forum Pooper Dumper *-) .........

 

 

So you are back to personal attacks - a sure sign you have lost the argument

 

[John52]

pelmetman - 2021-12-22 10:21 PM

 

......1.2 million job vacancies

 

....

 

Can you list them all - since you asked for all the vacancies for Brexit clerks to be listed.

Seriously I stopped taking Government Employment Statistics seriously about 40 years ago when Thatcher was laying waste to mining and manufacturing but her unemploymernt count was coming down *-)

 

How many of those 1.2 million jobs are non-existant advertised by agencies to get people on the books in case a job comes in?

And how many of those non-existant jobs are advertised in several places, so being counted several times?

[John52]

thebishbus - 2021-12-24 4:31 PM

not accepting, for instance that a lot of our problems are Covid related and not Brexit..

 

So what are these 'lots of' covid problems that have been blamed on Brexit?

All I have seen is comparisons with other countries who have had to deal with Brexit too.

[CurtainRaiser]

Bulletguy - 2021-12-24 6:52 PM

 

 

Brians post yesterday was a perfect summary.

 

Pleading for the abolition of an open forum because "the other side" has the better (or better expressed) arguments at a point in time is defeatism. It is tantamount to pleading that the right has no arguments, so the other lot should be silenced.

 

The answer is to mount a better argument, not to destroy the forum of debate.

 

I'd put it stronger than that as imo it's bordering on totalitarianism.

 

I also find it more than a little odd that those attempting to shut down debate about Brexit rarely post in the sub-forum they want shut down.

 

I went down a rabbit hole earlier looking up Trackers earlier posts so I could see what sort of forum he would like, this one has aged particularly well as to the type of Brexit he had been promised and was expecting:

 

"I'm only a simple country bloke and I see things perhaps too simplistically, but let's kick around a few crazy ideas most of which will probably never happen?

 

I deliberately used the word fair trade because fair to me means what it says - fair to both sides - and if that means one side (us) paying a fee for full access in a deal like the one we will need to get fair trade with 27 EU countries in one block deal then so be it, but I don't think we should be in any great rush to acceed to any EU demands about accepting or paying anything to get a deal just yet.

 

I believe that we should embrace the culture of unhindered travel and the right of any citizen to live in any country throughout the EU and UK but with the absolute proviso that anyone doing so does so at their own expense and finds their own source of income just as they would have to in their country of origin without any support from their chosen new country's coffers until they have contributed to that country for say three years?

 

We still have two years of EU free trade to keep us going so there should be time enough to vastly strengthen our negototiating postition and negotiate deals with any country in the rest of the world that wants to trade with us by which time maybe we might just prefer Japanese, Korean, Indonesian, or Chinese cars and washing machines etc to French, German or Italian variants? You cannot negotiate and expect a good deal from a position of need and weakness.

 

Nice thought - Scottish and Cornish fisherman catching their local fish and sharing our waters only with other UK based boats, farm subsidies to match the EU guaranteed by the UK government to ensure a level growing field, and if all this costs me an extra 10p on income tax with say a £5000 higher tax threshold to take the less well off out of income tax altogether for five years so be it - as long as everyone else who can afford it pays it too with the higher tax thresholds not being so generous?

 

What price independence?

 

And then who will need who the most?

 

 

Edited by Tracker 2016-06-28 7:33 PM

 

-----

Always look on the bright side of life."

 

Yes, I can see why he doesn't want to debate any more.

[Bulletguy]

Brian Kirby - 2021-12-24 7:20 PM

 

thebishbus - 2021-12-24 4:31 PM

Is this off topic ?

The problem as I see it, is that a lot of the remainers now rejoiners do not want to accept the fact that we have left the EU. They pinprick everything they can find to fault the move, not accepting, for instance that a lot of our problems are Covid related and not Brexit. They are not prepared as a lot of remaimers are, to make Brexit a success. As is shown on Chatterbox as they have virtually taken it over with their warped political, must always be right, and have the last word views . No wonder most normal people ignore Chatterbox.

Strictly, I suppose it is, as it doesn't address the question of the deleted strings.

 

But as you've raised the points, I'll give my own reactions, not as a representative of any group.

 

I do not want to accept that we have left, but I have to, don't I? It is a fact, so I have to accept it. But that does not mean that I welcome it, or that I should do so. I am not persuaded that it was the "right" decision for the UK. Those who promoted Brexit made many claims for it, and I await the evidence that those claims were soundly based.

 

On that, due to Covid, the jury remains out, and it may not be possible to unpick the extent to which Covid has torpedoed the Brexit project for a number of years yet - if ever. It will always be a topic of argument among academics and economists as there can never be a comparative proof. It was an act of faith.

 

Having sad that, nothing that I could see before the referendum, or that I have been able to see since, persuades me that those arguments were well founded.

 

I do not understand what "making Brexit a success" means, or how my failure to embrace it wholeheartedly might affect its eventual outcome. What are we supposed to do bring about success, and what does "success" actually mean?

 

How can any subject be debated in the absence of viewpoints? You allege that those who favoured remain present "warped political, must always be right, and have the last word views". But is that not equally true for those who promoted Brexit? And then? Are trenchant views not to be expected on any matter of national significance on which there is division? There is a detectable tendency for some Brexiters to say, in terms, "we won, so shut up and go away, and stop raising awkward questions". I get some of that from your post above.

 

If, as you imply, you are seeking national harmony, it might help to that end if those who advocate Brexit would take the time to explain to those who can't see the advantages, where, and what, they are. Harmony is unlikely to result from abrupt rebuffal. I have asked several times if anyone can set out what these advantages actually are, and how they are to come about. I assume that "success" should mean that our national prosperity should increase, and with that that we should all begin to enjoy increases in our standards of living, housing, health and social care, employment, education, and national infrastructure. So, if that is the objective, how does leaving the EU contribute? That is what I want explaining.

 

When I have an answer that convinces me, and I can see it is working, I shall be satisfied that I was wrong. Is that unreasonable? After, Britain is just as much my country as it is anyone else's, so am I not entitled to be shown the basis for the path we have now embarked upon, the more so because I greatly fear that it is the wrong path, and will prove to the detriment of my children and grand children?

This 60 seconds of pure tv genius is as relevant today as it was when first said five years back when QT was still a balanced political debate prog......and you can spot the Brexiteers in the audience a mile off.....in fact you can almost sense their enraged resignation as they know what he's saying is right, but cannot and will not ever admit it, and of course.....don't have an answer!

 

[John52]

CurtainRaiser - 2021-12-24 8:23 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2021-12-24 6:52 PM

 

 

Brians post yesterday was a perfect summary.

 

Pleading for the abolition of an open forum because "the other side" has the better (or better expressed) arguments at a point in time is defeatism. It is tantamount to pleading that the right has no arguments, so the other lot should be silenced.

 

The answer is to mount a better argument, not to destroy the forum of debate.

 

I'd put it stronger than that as imo it's bordering on totalitarianism.

 

I also find it more than a little odd that those attempting to shut down debate about Brexit rarely post in the sub-forum they want shut down.

 

I went down a rabbit hole earlier looking up Trackers earlier posts so I could see what sort of forum he would like, this one has aged particularly well as to the type of Brexit he had been promised and was expecting:

 

"I'm only a simple country bloke and I see things perhaps too simplistically, but let's kick around a few crazy ideas most of which will probably never happen?

 

I deliberately used the word fair trade because fair to me means what it says - fair to both sides - and if that means one side (us) paying a fee for full access in a deal like the one we will need to get fair trade with 27 EU countries in one block deal then so be it, but I don't think we should be in any great rush to acceed to any EU demands about accepting or paying anything to get a deal just yet.

 

I believe that we should embrace the culture of unhindered travel and the right of any citizen to live in any country throughout the EU and UK but with the absolute proviso that anyone doing so does so at their own expense and finds their own source of income just as they would have to in their country of origin without any support from their chosen new country's coffers until they have contributed to that country for say three years?

 

We still have two years of EU free trade to keep us going so there should be time enough to vastly strengthen our negototiating postition and negotiate deals with any country in the rest of the world that wants to trade with us by which time maybe we might just prefer Japanese, Korean, Indonesian, or Chinese cars and washing machines etc to French, German or Italian variants? You cannot negotiate and expect a good deal from a position of need and weakness.

 

Nice thought - Scottish and Cornish fisherman catching their local fish and sharing our waters only with other UK based boats, farm subsidies to match the EU guaranteed by the UK government to ensure a level growing field, and if all this costs me an extra 10p on income tax with say a £5000 higher tax threshold to take the less well off out of income tax altogether for five years so be it - as long as everyone else who can afford it pays it too with the higher tax thresholds not being so generous?

 

What price independence?

 

And then who will need who the most?

 

 

Edited by Tracker 2016-06-28 7:33 PM

 

-----

Always look on the bright side of life."

 

Yes, I can see why he doesn't want to debate any more.

Breathtaking when you compare it with whats happened

Seems to have been under the delusion that the UK was in a stronger negotiating position than the combined 27 countries of the EU

So much so that the UK could lay down its red lines and undermine everything the EU stands for.

No wonder he's embarrased and wants to avoid any mention of it now

[John52]

Brian Kirby - 2021-12-24 7:20 PM

Those who promoted Brexit made many claims for it, and I await the evidence that those claims were soundly based.

 

That would be a welcome change from their personal attacks,

and attempts to silence further debate.