Camping gas and Propane bottles.

[Hans]

Will see what i Get Derek. Better anything than nothing.

[Hans]

Monique called me right now from dog agility festival. Hans no gas for the gas hobs and hot water boiler. Inside 22 deg c..I said your 907will be near empty. full 6.45 kg. empty 3.7 kg.. 7bars 15 deg c OPERATING 0- 50 DEG C BOILER 120 GRAMS PER HOUR. So i said take the right key left threaded and dis connect the empty gastank take the reserve which is near the front seat. The Hell broke out saying this.

[Derek Uzzell]

A full Campingaz 907 bottle should be able to cope with a continuous gas consumption of 120g-per-hour for about 22 hours, but using the hob too would obviously reduce that figure.

 

As you have two Campingaz 907 bottles (that equate to 2 x 2.72kg of butane gas) and these are only used for water heating and to fuel the hob, the main issue is the effect of cold weather on the butane gas's vaporisation (which is what you highlighted at the very beginning of this discussion).

 

Rather than contemplate taking the refillable bottle/tank route or carrying a (presumably Belgian) propane bottle externally, I'd be looking to keep the 907 bottle warm electrically.

 

The RidgeMonkey heated cover is too small for a Campinggaz 907 bottle (though you might be able to modify the cover sufficiently to get it to work with a 907 canister) but you ought to be able to DIY-install a 12V heating mat that would keep the 907 bottle cozy. This would not prevent Monique running the 907 bottle empty and having to swap it for the full reserve 907 bottle, but it would allow the butane gas to continue to vaporise in cold weather.

 

[Hans]

Thank you Derek. The temperature drop occurs mostly in the regulator. The canister is 7 bar- 15 deg c. working temp 0-50 c. Full. To freeze at minus9deg c. To reduce from full 7bar to 20mbars has a joule Thomson's effect of ? degrees.. So I cover the regulator whit the ridge monkey to test in future.

[Hans]

The truma bg 10 boiler uses 120 gram per hour working time. The 907 has 2.75 kg of butane.

[John52]

Derek Uzzell - 2022-04-03 8:58 AM

I'd be looking to keep the 907 bottle warm electrically.

 

How much would that take out of the batteries?

As I understand it, the cylinder chills itself like a refrigerator in use - liquid to gas absorbs heat.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

The RidgeMonkey heated cover (designed for 450/500 gas canisters NOT Campingaz 907 bottles) uses a 5V 2A USB power source. Even if a small heating mat requiring a 12V supply were used to heat a 907 bottle, in Hans's case the heating would only be needed just prior to and during gas take-off when water-heating/cooking were occurring. So I don't see high battery drain being a potential issue.

 

Even if Hans uses the RidgeMonkey cover to keep the gas regulator warm, I would have thought the butane in the 907 bottle will still not vaporise sufficiently in cold weather to adequately fuel a hob or a Truma Ultrastore water boiler.

 

What this really boils down to (or doesn't boil down to ;-) ) is that a Westfalia Kepler One's gas system designed around a Campingaz 907 bottle is basically unsuitable for the cold weather camping that Hans wants to have.

[laimeduck]

I repeat what I said earlier the crux of which was ignored until heating mats were mentioned .... cheap and cheerful very simple & safe but more importantly, effective.

 

"We used camping gaz in our caravan when we went skiing in the Aravis area of the Alps.

 

I made a polystyrene box for the cylinder in the gas locker which had a old tobacco tin in the base in which I wired a sidelight bulb to run off the leisure battery. Also a simple switch into the habitation area.

 

15 mins in the morning was sufficient to get enough temperature into the gas cylinder for it to work well enough for the cooker. Often well below 0 temperatures overnight."

Jeremy

-----

[Hans]

Butane has a higher calorific value than propane which a mix of the two Whit additives to grease. The regulator is set at 20mbars. Do not believe the flame of propane mix is higher. GOK the equipment manufacturer said And CAN the GasHobs said it is ok for Both gases.. I put now a usb heated hat on the regulator in case off and what the result will be next season. Maybe it works as a Truma Eis/Ex.

[Derek Uzzell]

I expect you mean 30mbars not 20mbars.

[Hans]

That is correct Derek. 30mbars. The ridge monkey head is 0- 50 deg c.Will test next weekend cold . Temp range 0-50 deg c. Warm up 15 minutes before use and keep on during use. You may not insulate your canister which have adverse effect.

 

[Hans]

What is best level indicator on 907 camping gas butane bottle. That magnetic strip is lost money OnlyTruma ultra sonic seems good on a steel bottle 907. About 60 euro.. Any better?

 

[Derek Uzzell]

In addition to Truma's "LevelCheck" device (about £67 in the UK)

 

https://www.truma.com/uk/en/products/truma-caravan-rv-gas-fittings/truma-levelcheck

 

there's Dometic's "Gas Checker GC 100" (about £48 in the UK)

 

https://www.dometic.com/en-nz/outdoor/nz/support/dometic-gas-checker-gc-100-_-30582

 

and this thing (of which I know nothing)

 

https://tinyurl.com/mrxe674z

 

The German company Gaslock used to make contents-level devices

 

https://hybridsupply.uk/leisure-industrial-gas/gaslevel-gas-level-indicator-for-gas-bottles/

 

I had a Gaslock "GASLEVEL Classis" that was fairly cheap worked reasonably well, but I think a 907 bottle would be too small for this to be used. That may also be the case for the other devices I've mentioned above and for the more expensive/more sophisticated devices marketed with larger bottles in mind.

 

Weighing the 907 bottle is the cheapest solution (graph attached below) but may be tricky to do when bottle is connected up.

 

 

 

 

[pepe63xnotuse]

That's a handy little chart Derek, Thanks (I think I will print that out for future ref')

 

When it comes to VW "T"-sized campervans, especially those with the "traditional" rear rock'n'roll beds, there's a chance that changing a gas bottle is going to involve opening up the tailgate, that could be a pain in the day if it's raining (but if it happens at night it'd be exposing the bed/bedding/pillows to the elements!).. I can see that the bottle in our "new to us" Toyota Granvia would be a pain to change if it was raining...

If someone needs a late night/ early morning brew that much, maybe keep a "suitcase stove" and a couple of canistors within easy reach (tucked in front of the cab seats?) To use,the stove could just be sat on the closed hob?

[Derek Uzzell]

How best to establish how much gas remains in a Campingaz canister has been discussed a fair bit online. I poached the 907 graph from this 2009-2016 thread where the original posting includes graphs for 904 and 901 canisters too.

 

https://igmaynard.co.uk/bongo/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34702

 

I've attached a level-chart for the 907 bottle - the quality is not great, but the best I can do without using 'smart' enhancement software.

 

This link may be of interest

 

https://podcaravans.co.uk/gas-bottle-level-indicator/

 

and the Sound Vision Magnetic Gas Level Indicator may be worth trying (at least it's cheap!)

 

Otherwise there are (much more expensive) weighing platforms that go under the bottle, and 'airline luggage' scales from which the bottle hangs. There used to be a sort of 'sprung-wedge' thing that was put under the bottom edge of a gas bottle and supposedly allowed the bottle's weight to be measured. I haven't seen it advertised for years, so it probably did not work...

[John52]

Derek Uzzell - 2022-04-12 10:52 AM

I've attached a level-chart for the 907 bottle - ..

 

Is that weight for butane or propane?

 

[John52]

Stamped on the base of the 907 it says Butane 3.0kg Propane 2.5 kg

So I just weighed an empty one, added 2.5kg and marked that weight on my spring balance.

I always used the same spring balance to weigh them after filling.

Personally I would rather trust my spring balance than an electronic gadget - because the spring balance is simple enough for me to understand :-S

[Keithl]

John52 - 2022-04-12 11:24 AM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2022-04-12 10:52 AM

I've attached a level-chart for the 907 bottle - ..

 

Is that weight for butane or propane?

Campingaz is only available as Butane.

[Derek Uzzell]

John52 - 2022-04-12 11:33 AM

 

Stamped on the base of the 907 it says Butane 3.0kg Propane 2.5 kg...

 

The BUT/PROP 'dual-marking' stamped into a Campingaz bottle's skirt (image attached below) is mentioned in this 2022 VWCalifornia Club forum thread.

 

https://vwcaliforniaclub.com/threads/gas-bottle-in-sweden.43244/#post-561152

 

The advice provided by a Netherlands forum-member is

 

...Campinggaz bottles that can hold propane DO exist! Especially in the Alps, where it can be cold and where Campingaz IS marketed, one can find such bottles. We once exchanged one of our bottles when it was empty there for such a variant. Look at the bottom rim. When they can hold both, they will say: but. 3.00 kg, prop. 2,50 kg. Butane-only bottles don’t mention the propane. We kept that bottle, and have had it refilled at a local gas station with propane several winters now!

 

The dual-marking may, in fact, be the norm as my 907 bottle's skirt carries it. However, my bottle is clearly labelled (in paint) "TYPE 907 BUTANE UN1011" and "GB NETT 2.72kg", so there's little doubt about which gas it contains.

 

Liquid butane is heavier than liquid propane, so for the same volume (eg. a 907 bottle filled to 80% capacity) the butane in the bottle will weigh more than the same volume of propane.

 

Hans's enquiry was not about establishing how much liquid gas can safely be put into an empty 907 bottle when DIY-refilling it, but how best to check the bottle's contents-level when the bottle is connected up and in use (and, presumably, without disconnecting the bottle or removing it from its locker). In such a case, using a spring balance is unlikely to be a practicable approach.

[Ocsid]

Filling a Campingaz 907 bottle, one not dual marked for butane and propane, with propane as here in LPG automotive gas, could be dangerous as the two gases have very differing vapour pressures.

 

At 100 F about 38 C for example Butane has a pressure of a relative modest 38 psi, whereas propane is way higher at 177 psi.

 

Should unique butane Campinggaz 907s only be designed and pressure tested for their stated purpose, things could go serious wrong if these were ever filled with automotive LPG, here basically propane.

 

Elsewhere where automotive LPG is variously blended, the picture is nearly as concerning.

 

Here is a source reference for the figures quoted:

 

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/propane-butane-mix-d_1043.html

[John52]

Well according to Derek's chart and my experience, all the 907 cylinders weigh about the same.

Which suggests they are all about the same strength and so able to hold propane or butane.

I certainly hope so.

It would be a recipe for disaster if they weren't.

Especially as there are no obvious differences between them.

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

t's been claimed in the past that the type of gas that's put into Campingaz bottles varies according to the country in which the bottles are sold with (as one might anticipate) a dollop of propane being added to the 'standard' butane in countries with a wintry climate. And it's certainly true that certain Campingaz products are advertised as containing a butane/propane mixture (example here)

 

http://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/camping-equipment/campingaz-cv470-butane-propane-resealable-gas-cartridge.asp

 

Whether (as stated authoritatively) on the VWCalifornia Club forum it is actually true that there are Campingaz 907 butane-only bottles and 907 butane-or-propane bottles and these are differently constructed, is questionable. As one of selling points for the larger Campingaz canisters is that they are exchangeable pretty much anywhere in Europe, I'm minded to believe that this is not the case and, if a 907 bottle carries 'dual marking' (like my 907 bottle and John's) or just a reference to butane, it seems probable to me that, in every other respect except the marking on the bottle's skirt, the bottles will be identical.

 

I suppose one could ask Newell Brands (who now own Campingaz) what the position is, but I'm no longer a motorcaravanner and I don't plan to DIY-refill my 907 bottle, so I'm not going to do it.

[John52]

Well I've been filling 907 cylinders with propane for 20 years without incident - except once when the connector at the 907cylinder failed releasing a large amount of gas. Could have been catastrophic indoors, but I was outside so no bother.

Must admit I haven't read the writing stamped on the base of every one - half of them are unreadable anyway due to paint or rust as they have to be stored outside in the wet.

Its inconceivable to me that Colemans would produce refillable gas cylinders that look the same, weigh the same, and crucially have the same identification number (907), with some that can hold propane and some that can't.

That would be incredibly reckless and stupid wouldn't it?

[Steve928]

My concern with filling any CG 907 cylinder with propane is the 'valve' which appears to be nothing more than a sprung steel ball in a rubber seat.

I don't doubt that the cylinder itself is up to propane pressure - mine are stamped '15 Bar' which is ample - but I do wonder whether the valve is included in that rating.

I refill both propane and butane cylinders of various types and it would be convenient to focus of one type of gas and put propane in my boat's 907 cylinders but that flimsy-looking valve which might become a steel ball gun puts me right off.

[Derek Uzzell]

If (as claimed on the VWCalifornia Club forum) there are Campingaz 907 bottles that are marketed with 100% propane gas in them, and those bottles are specifically 'dual-marked' as shown in the photo in my posting of 12 April 2022 1:37 PM, it would be reasonable to assume that the 'valve' in the top of a dual-marked 907 bottle would have been designed to cope with propane pressures. Otherwise, the valve would be different when the bottle had either butane or propane in it and that would really complicate exchanging bottles. My own gut-feeling is that all 907 bottles are the same regarding their construction, strength and valve, and that the marking on the rim is a red herring.

 

Obviously Campingaz don't approve of DIY-refilling. If anyone does it there are risks and the risks become higher if propane is used. 907 bottles are normally marketed with butane in them, so there's an 'unknown' factor that can't be quantified when propane is put in instead. You either DIY-refill with butane (fairly safe) or DIY-refill with propane (Who knows??)