Bailey motorhomes advice and 760 Approach SE

[simian]

Barryd999 - 2022-05-13 2:16 PM

 

simian - 2022-05-13 2:11 PM

 

Some Autotrail models of yore have chassis extensions consisting of nothing much more than welded handy angle. To be fair, and if I remember correctly, they did prohibit or at least advise against the fitting of a tow bar. The second or subsequent owner may not be in possession of the handbook (or wherever the info was contained) and blithely unknowingly bolt on a tow bar/ball mounted motorbike rack.

I suppose the first speed hump hit at speed was likely to sort the handy angle vans from properly sized C section and RHS models.

 

As for ramping a lightweight motor scooter/bike up to an Iveco floor that can be quite problematical, with a 700mm + rise.

ramp length may need to be be impractically long, depending on how much you resemble Arnie.

 

I used to ramp a 200kg M/bike to 850mm floor height, but needed a 2 part ramp. Starting the bike and powering up wasn't an option

100bhp and one slip and it would have been a quick exit through the windscreen.

 

So now it's rear rack (telescoping to allow back doors to partially open), with lightweight M/bike @ 500mm.

 

That kind of confirms what I just posted above regarding Autotrail. I think the Arapaho tag axle is ok, the newer one at least but ideally I dont want an 8.5 metre van which will become 9 metres with the bike on. I also have heard not so good things about them build quality wise also

 

I know there are a fair few vans that can carry bikes in the garage but then we compromise on the layout we want.

 

You say you are carrying a bike on a rack. What van do you have?

 

If you intend to returning to touring France, don't overlook the fact that some French campsites take a negative attitude to twin axles, as in non admittance at times.......gens du voyage and all that. A couple of Germans have said to me that UK made caravans were quite well regarded by Germans, but not so UK motorhomes, a majority sentiment reflected in Blighty M/home forums I would say, judging by the discussions, nah make that arguments to be had! Of course the UK vans tend to be cheaper size for size, you just canna have everything.

 

Surprising to myself how many people buy a motorhome with a garage well able to take a light Mbike/scooter, but choose to rear rack them. The garage then becomes the major storage area, which generally entails constant going in and out in all weathers.

 

My own van is a PVC 6.6t a quick moments calc. shows that I could in theory carry a Smartcar on a rear rack. In practise the max. vertical loading is a fairly lowly 140kg. At the weighbridge ready to buzz off for say an overseas sojourn it records as c.4760kg. so over 1.8t spare margin you could say.

[Barryd999]

simian - 2022-05-13 4:25 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2022-05-13 2:16 PM

 

simian - 2022-05-13 2:11 PM

 

Some Autotrail models of yore have chassis extensions consisting of nothing much more than welded handy angle. To be fair, and if I remember correctly, they did prohibit or at least advise against the fitting of a tow bar. The second or subsequent owner may not be in possession of the handbook (or wherever the info was contained) and blithely unknowingly bolt on a tow bar/ball mounted motorbike rack.

I suppose the first speed hump hit at speed was likely to sort the handy angle vans from properly sized C section and RHS models.

 

As for ramping a lightweight motor scooter/bike up to an Iveco floor that can be quite problematical, with a 700mm + rise.

ramp length may need to be be impractically long, depending on how much you resemble Arnie.

 

I used to ramp a 200kg M/bike to 850mm floor height, but needed a 2 part ramp. Starting the bike and powering up wasn't an option

100bhp and one slip and it would have been a quick exit through the windscreen.

 

So now it's rear rack (telescoping to allow back doors to partially open), with lightweight M/bike @ 500mm.

 

That kind of confirms what I just posted above regarding Autotrail. I think the Arapaho tag axle is ok, the newer one at least but ideally I dont want an 8.5 metre van which will become 9 metres with the bike on. I also have heard not so good things about them build quality wise also

 

I know there are a fair few vans that can carry bikes in the garage but then we compromise on the layout we want.

 

You say you are carrying a bike on a rack. What van do you have?

 

If you intend to returning to touring France, don't overlook the fact that some French campsites take a negative attitude to twin axles, as in non admittance at times.......gens du voyage and all that. A couple of Germans have said to me that UK made caravans were quite well regarded by Germans, but not so UK motorhomes, a majority sentiment reflected in Blighty M/home forums I would say, judging by the discussions, nah make that arguments to be had! Of course the UK vans tend to be cheaper size for size, you just canna have everything.

 

Surprising to myself how many people buy a motorhome with a garage well able to take a light Mbike/scooter, but choose to rear rack them. The garage then becomes the major storage area, which generally entails constant going in and out in all weathers.

 

My own van is a PVC 6.6t a quick moments calc. shows that I could in theory carry a Smartcar on a rear rack. In practise the max. vertical loading is a fairly lowly 140kg. At the weighbridge ready to buzz off for say an overseas sojourn it records as c.4760kg. so over 1.8t spare margin you could say.

 

Care to share what van exactly it is you have?

[Keithl]

Barryd999 - 2022-05-13 9:45 PM

 

Care to share what van exactly it is you have?

 

IIRC Simian has a Merc which is something like a 609 or 709. Photo from an older posting...

 

(I only remembered because I'm a fan of older Merc vans).

[Barryd999]

Looks like a proper old Glastonbury bus! (lol)

 

Are there modern equivalent PVC Vans then that can carry the weight of a smart car on the back? Or just a scooter would do!

[simian]

Barryd999 - 2022-05-14 8:59 AM

 

Looks like a proper old Glastonbury bus! (lol)

 

Are there modern equivalent PVC Vans then that can carry the weight of a smart car on the back? Or just a scooter would do!

 

Never been to Glastonbury, van or moi.

Actually the van body was produced in exactly the same shape until 2013 so not so out of date in appearances and aesthetically could anyone say the average overcab modern van looks easy on the eye? Iveco vans go a fair way up the load scale and MB sprinters possibly carry a smartcar. I have seen a few light truck m/homes carrying quadbikes on a rear rack, so perhaps not that far from reality.

 

What my van does though is give versatility, I've been able to adapt it over the years from carrying just push bikes, to a 650cc M/bike, and now a 125cc M/bike. From rear double bed front kitchen over so called garage to 2 front singles kitchen at rear etc. Result is I've never felt the dire need to change it, Much depends on what you consider has priority, alloy wheels and decals, 9 speed autoboxes or the ability to function practically as a motorhome.

[747]

Derek Uzzell - 2022-05-13 7:48 AM

 

A Ducato-based motorhome with a 4005kg MTPLM would have been built on an 'ordinary' Fiat Maxi chassis, not on an AL-KO chassis.

 

(I notice that you been agonising for more than 6 years on various motorhome forums over what to replace "Hank" with . You are going to have to bite the bullet at some stage...)

 

I have known Barry for a long time (and met him). I never get involved in his "looking for a new van" threads or his "seeking info on this or that item". :D

 

That is because whatever info he gets (and let's face it, on some forums it is very poor), he will not commit. He will not take a chance, no new motorhome comes with a cast iron guarantee. You are either lucky or unlucky when buying a used (or new) motorhome. 8-)

 

Sorry Barry. :D ;-)

[747]

How about one of these instead Barry. It just means you use your Scooter in a different way. :D

 

[Brian Kirby]

Barryd999 - 2022-05-13 2:06 PM ........................................Thanks Brian. Yes the Autotrail Apache looks good on paper. I considered one but then I posted on the Autotrail owners group on Facebook a few years back about it and was told that the none Alko extensions they use are only rated to 100kg loading so no good as the rack will be 30-40kg and the bike 100kg. I took their word for it of course (The internet again eh) and stopped looking at them.

Not pushing Auto Trail, Barry, but the best source of advice on what can be fitted to what would probably be Auto-Trail themselves (as they make the things) or Armitage, as they make and fit the racks. It is quite possible that the AT chassis extensions are not designed for the downforces of a scooter rack, as the more common requirement would be for a towbar, as evidenced by ATs focus on towing limits and trailer weights in their technical data. Equally, as AT have been building vans for years, and a number of the vans seem to have retained their model names across more than one version of the base vehicle, it is possible that what was the case for one version of base vehicle may not be the same for a later/earlier version. I think you just need to speak to the nag's head! :-D

 

I'd give those Laikas a good looking at as well, as they seem at least potentially capable of carrying a scooter, and several of the RWD IVECO based Kreos models and the FWD Ducato based Ecovips specifically illustrate a scooter being carried in a double door "garage", where it is not on show, and will stay nice and dry and clean in bad weather. Probably similar models from Burstner and Hymer as well, as they seem to manufacture similar models at the different factories with mainly cosmetic differences.

[simian]

Someone I once came across, same van as mine, but obviously a lot more dosh expended. The conversion, custom paint job, plus all leather upholstery alone cost as much as a new middling coachbuilt.....the trailer would manage a Honda Vision, might be a job getting a Smartcar in as well ;-)

[Barryd999]

simian - 2022-05-14 9:56 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2022-05-14 8:59 AM

 

Looks like a proper old Glastonbury bus! (lol)

 

Are there modern equivalent PVC Vans then that can carry the weight of a smart car on the back? Or just a scooter would do!

 

Never been to Glastonbury, van or moi.

Actually the van body was produced in exactly the same shape until 2013 so not so out of date in appearances and aesthetically could anyone say the average overcab modern van looks easy on the eye? Iveco vans go a fair way up the load scale and MB sprinters possibly carry a smartcar. I have seen a few light truck m/homes carrying quadbikes on a rear rack, so perhaps not that far from reality.

 

What my van does though is give versatility, I've been able to adapt it over the years from carrying just push bikes, to a 650cc M/bike, and now a 125cc M/bike. From rear double bed front kitchen over so called garage to 2 front singles kitchen at rear etc. Result is I've never felt the dire need to change it, Much depends on what you consider has priority, alloy wheels and decals, 9 speed autoboxes or the ability to function practically as a motorhome.

 

Looks great and like my Kontiki its past the test of time and seemingly able to do a lot (as in carry a scooter) that modern vans do not seem to be able to do. I have not ruled out a PVC if I can get the right layout and if ti has enough payload and a good enough chassis to carry the bike. How do you find the handling with the bike on?

[Barryd999]

747 - 2022-05-14 11:56 AM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2022-05-13 7:48 AM

 

A Ducato-based motorhome with a 4005kg MTPLM would have been built on an 'ordinary' Fiat Maxi chassis, not on an AL-KO chassis.

 

(I notice that you been agonising for more than 6 years on various motorhome forums over what to replace "Hank" with . You are going to have to bite the bullet at some stage...)

 

I have known Barry for a long time (and met him). I never get involved in his "looking for a new van" threads or his "seeking info on this or that item". :D

 

That is because whatever info he gets (and let's face it, on some forums it is very poor), he will not commit. He will not take a chance, no new motorhome comes with a cast iron guarantee. You are either lucky or unlucky when buying a used (or new) motorhome. 8-)

 

Sorry Barry. :D ;-)

 

Yes good bit of trolling there! Ill bite though!! Is it unreasonable do you think to ask a dealer to allow you to take a bloody motorhome with a commitment to buy to a local weighbridge when you are potentially parting with £40-50k?

[Barryd999]

Brian Kirby - 2022-05-14 1:04 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2022-05-13 2:06 PM ........................................Thanks Brian. Yes the Autotrail Apache looks good on paper. I considered one but then I posted on the Autotrail owners group on Facebook a few years back about it and was told that the none Alko extensions they use are only rated to 100kg loading so no good as the rack will be 30-40kg and the bike 100kg. I took their word for it of course (The internet again eh) and stopped looking at them.

Not pushing Auto Trail, Barry, but the best source of advice on what can be fitted to what would probably be Auto-Trail themselves (as they make the things) or Armitage, as they make and fit the racks. It is quite possible that the AT chassis extensions are not designed for the downforces of a scooter rack, as the more common requirement would be for a towbar, as evidenced by ATs focus on towing limits and trailer weights in their technical data. Equally, as AT have been building vans for years, and a number of the vans seem to have retained their model names across more than one version of the base vehicle, it is possible that what was the case for one version of base vehicle may not be the same for a later/earlier version. I think you just need to speak to the nag's head! :-D

 

I'd give those Laikas a good looking at as well, as they seem at least potentially capable of carrying a scooter, and several of the RWD IVECO based Kreos models and the FWD Ducato based Ecovips specifically illustrate a scooter being carried in a double door "garage", where it is not on show, and will stay nice and dry and clean in bad weather. Probably similar models from Burstner and Hymer as well, as they seem to manufacture similar models at the different factories with mainly cosmetic differences.

 

A quick google of this Kreos Brian brings this up. The payload is pitiful.

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/buyers-guide/motorhomes/details/3003/6016

 

I cant remember if I spoke to Armitage about the Autotrails, I think maybe I did but will have to check historic emails. My experience of speaking to manufacturers is that they either dont respond or if they do they dont commit to stating if you can fit a scooter rack or not to any of their vans. What Armitage do say is the Alko chassis is always best. I think though they can strengthen or add bits to a none alko chassis but it all adds weight. I could revisit this.

 

 

[simian]

Barryd999 - 2022-05-15 8:23 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2022-05-14 8:59 AM

 

Looks like a proper old Glastonbury bus! (lol)

 

Are there modern equivalent PVC Vans then that can carry the weight of a smart car on the back? Or just a scooter would do!

 

Looks great and like my Kontiki its past the test of time and seemingly able to do a lot (as in carry a scooter) that modern vans do not seem to be able to do. I have not ruled out a PVC if I can get the right layout and if ti has enough payload and a good enough chassis to carry the bike. How do you find the handling with the bike on?

 

With the van weighing in at 4.8t and the M/bike at 0.125t it's hardly a case of the tail wagging the dog! Plenty of minibuses zipping around with 300kg of passengers all sitting on the back seats and the rest of the vehicle empty, apart from the driver. I think people exaggerate the so called pendulum effect at the rear even on sub 3.5t M/homes. Sure it must make 'some' difference. Actually on my van without the M/bike the front axle is not so far from max. loading, bunging the bike on the back lightens up the front and puts more on the rear which has 2t going spare, so probably a positive tradeoff.

The main shortcoming with PVCs is internal body width, doubt if you'll find any PVC providing a layout competing satisfactorily with a fairly wide bodied Kontiki. My van was/is the largest tin body made, even so it gives only1900mm 6' 3" interior width, I'm 6' 2" and found the across-van- double bed -over-garage at the rear a bit cramped and was one of the reasons I swapped it to the front end lengthwise. If you're 4'6" short you may find something Sprinter based !

[Barryd999]

simian - 2022-05-15 9:52 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2022-05-15 8:23 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2022-05-14 8:59 AM

 

Looks like a proper old Glastonbury bus! (lol)

 

Are there modern equivalent PVC Vans then that can carry the weight of a smart car on the back? Or just a scooter would do!

 

Looks great and like my Kontiki its past the test of time and seemingly able to do a lot (as in carry a scooter) that modern vans do not seem to be able to do. I have not ruled out a PVC if I can get the right layout and if ti has enough payload and a good enough chassis to carry the bike. How do you find the handling with the bike on?

 

With the van weighing in at 4.8t and the M/bike at 0.125t it's hardly a case of the tail wagging the dog! Plenty of minibuses zipping around with 300kg of passengers all sitting on the back seats and the rest of the vehicle empty, apart from the driver. I think people exaggerate the so called pendulum effect at the rear even on sub 3.5t M/homes. Sure it must make 'some' difference. Actually on my van without the M/bike the front axle is not so far from max. loading, bunging the bike on the back lightens up the front and puts more on the rear which has 2t going spare, so probably a positive tradeoff.

The main shortcoming with PVCs is internal body width, doubt if you'll find any PVC providing a layout competing satisfactorily with a fairly wide bodied Kontiki. My van was/is the largest tin body made, even so it gives only1900mm 6' 3" interior width, I'm 6' 2" and found the across-van- double bed -over-garage at the rear a bit cramped and was one of the reasons I swapped it to the front end lengthwise. If you're 4'6" short you may find something Sprinter based !

 

I think a lot of people who mention the pendulum effect are theorists who have never actually put a scooter on a rack on the back of the van. The warnings were dire when I did it back in 2008 and guess what? Not a jot of difference to the handling but I always put this down to the shorter than most overhang (still a fair overhang) and keeping other weight forward and the van balanced well. A trade off as you say. I do know someone who had a shorter Bessaccar though who experienced some handling issues with the bike on.

 

PVC has a big advantage for us though as it will fit on the drive. Some of the later models we are looking at of coachbuilts and particularly that Bailey I think will be too wide to fit on our drive. Its incredibly tight with the Kontiki already which I think is about 7ft 3 in old money. Bailey I think is 7ft 11.

 

So I would consider a PVC if I can find one on the heavier chassis or twin wheel at the back perhaps with at least three berths and a lounge at the back.

 

[Barryd999]

Blimey! Have I read this right? Those Sprinters can go up to 5500kg creating a humongous payload.

 

https://www.mercedes-benz-mena.com/vans/en/sprinter/panel-van/technical-data

 

One option would be to buy a used van and just get it converted to your exact spec.

[Brian Kirby]

Barryd999 - 2022-05-15 8:33 AM......................................

A quick google of this Kreos Brian brings this up. The payload is pitiful.

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/buyers-guide/motorhomes/details/3003/6016

There is more than one Kreos in the world, Barry! :-)

 

Follow this link to the Southdowns brochure archive : https://tinyurl.com/y3bmu3px - which should take you to the Laika technical brochure for 2012. If you adjust the page view to show the brochure as a two page spread with the cover page shown separately (so you can read the tables across two pages), you will see that the Kreos 3,000 series were available at 3,500kg MAM (which the one you found is) or, as an option, at 4,000kg or (Fiat/AlKo) 4,250kg. You will find that some are on on the Fiat "Camping Car" chassis, and others are on Fiat/AlKo chassis, and yet others on the IVECO chassis.

 

You will also see that the Kreos 3001, 3003, 3009 and 3010, and 5009 and 5010 models are illustrated as being capable of transporting a scooter in the rear underbed garage - so no rack required. Scooter load moved forward, so better load balance and less weight transfer to the rear axle. What's not to like! :-)

 

Southdowns also have downloadable brochures for other makes/years. Do a Google search using the terms "southdowns burstner 2012 brochure" (or substitute alternative years for 2012, or any of the other advertised makers (Knaus, Carado, Concorde, Bailey, or Carthago) and see if you get any hits. This search format seems to sidestep the need to register to see the brochures.

 

These are the manufacturer's (not Southdowns) brochures for the years during which Southdowns held franchises for those makes, so they should enable you to identify specific models that might suit what you need. They will be more reliable than an odd magazine review (even from MMM! :-)) that omits to point out the alternative chassis and MAM options that are available. This is the technical info from the horse's mouth from which, if any seller has the nous to give the full spec for the van they are selling (fat chance!), should enable you to calculate the remaining payload after fitted options weights are added/deducted as necessary. Like I said, fill yer boots! :-D

[Barryd999]

Brian Kirby - 2022-05-15 12:22 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2022-05-15 8:33 AM......................................

A quick google of this Kreos Brian brings this up. The payload is pitiful.

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/buyers-guide/motorhomes/details/3003/6016

There is more than one Kreos in the world, Barry! :-)

 

Follow this link to the Southdowns brochure archive : https://tinyurl.com/y3bmu3px - which should take you to the Laika technical brochure for 2012. If you adjust the page view to show the brochure as a two page spread with the cover page shown separately (so you can read the tables across two pages), you will see that the Kreos 3,000 series were available at 3,500kg MAM (which the one you found is) or, as an option, at 4,000kg or (Fiat/AlKo) 4,250kg. You will find that some are on on the Fiat "Camping Car" chassis, and others are on Fiat/AlKo chassis, and yet others on the IVECO chassis.

 

You will also see that the Kreos 3001, 3003, 3009 and 3010, and 5009 and 5010 models are illustrated as being capable of transporting a scooter in the rear underbed garage - so no rack required. Scooter load moved forward, so better load balance and less weight transfer to the rear axle. What's not to like! :-)

 

Southdowns also have downloadable brochures for other makes/years. Do a Google search using the terms "southdowns burstner 2012 brochure" (or substitute alternative years for 2012, or any of the other advertised makers (Knaus, Carado, Concorde, Bailey, or Carthago) and see if you get any hits. This search format seems to sidestep the need to register to see the brochures.

 

These are the manufacturer's (not Southdowns) brochures for the years during which Southdowns held franchises for those makes, so they should enable you to identify specific models that might suit what you need. They will be more reliable than an odd magazine review (even from MMM! :-)) that omits to point out the alternative chassis and MAM options that are available. This is the technical info from the horse's mouth from which, if any seller has the nous to give the full spec for the van they are selling (fat chance!), should enable you to calculate the remaining payload after fitted options weights are added/deducted as necessary. Like I said, fill yer boots! :-D

 

Thanks Brian. On paper they look ok for carrying a scooter as do a few other motorhomes with large garages but its too big a compromise I fear on layout and Ive never really fancied an A class. Not only that, loading a scooter into the garage is a PIA and I suspect ill struggle with my knees. I think I would actually prefer to use one of those complicated looking hydratrail side loading trailers than go for the Laika and I really dont fancy one of those either. :-(

 

I suspect ill either end up with a 496, take a punt on a bailey or build my own van.

[simian]

Barryd999 - 2022-05-15 10:49 AM

 

Blimey! Have I read this right? Those Sprinters can go up to 5500kg creating a humongous payload.

 

https://www.mercedes-benz-mena.com/vans/en/sprinter/panel-van/technical-data

 

One option would be to buy a used van and just get it converted to your exact spec.

 

A custom built one off job will involve plenty of talkie time with a trusted experienced converter, you'll be very lucky to get a PVC van to your exact original plan but then again, depending on the converter's competence you may well end up with something superior. The sort of work carried out as an estimate rather than a quotation!

 

I've happened upon a few so called 'professional' converters. Some, carpenters, just fancying a change with little or no specific van conversion experience, rather like the 'professional' habitation service offered by dealers. The bloke doing the work doesn't have to possess any trade qualifications, hence usually no certification of gas or electrical systems £200 + though. Probably the salesman thrown a boiler suit in slack sales times. Lol.

[Barryd999]

simian - 2022-05-15 1:39 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2022-05-15 10:49 AM

 

Blimey! Have I read this right? Those Sprinters can go up to 5500kg creating a humongous payload.

 

https://www.mercedes-benz-mena.com/vans/en/sprinter/panel-van/technical-data

 

One option would be to buy a used van and just get it converted to your exact spec.

 

A custom built one off job will involve plenty of talkie time with a trusted experienced converter, you'll be very lucky to get a PVC van to your exact original plan but then again, depending on the converter's competence you may well end up with something superior. The sort of work carried out as an estimate rather than a quotation!

 

I've happened upon a few so called 'professional' converters. Some, carpenters, just fancying a change with little or no specific van conversion experience, rather like the 'professional' habitation service offered by dealers. The bloke doing the work doesn't have to possess any trade qualifications, hence usually no certification of gas or electrical systems £200 + though. Probably the salesman thrown a boiler suit in slack sales times. Lol.

 

I think a lot of due diligence would be required! I found this outfit just down the road from me. https://www.convertmyvan.com/ If I was going down this route I would be looking for some first hand recommendations, probably from people I know or trust on the forums.

 

I imagine it could get pricey also. Van prices I believe have also shot up. Say £15-25k for the van and I bet £30k on top for the conversion at least.

[Brian Kirby]

Barryd999 - 2022-05-15 1:31 PM......................................

Thanks Brian. On paper they look ok for carrying a scooter as do a few other motorhomes with large garages but its too big a compromise I fear on layout and Ive never really fancied an A class.

But, none of the vans I instanced were Kreos A Class vans. You didn't really look, did you? . ;-)

 

It's that U shaped rear lounge you're really after, isn't it - which more or less limits your choices to UK produced vans. Add the need for an AlKo chassis to get sufficient (though you'd need to check and verify in each case) strength for the scooter rack, plus a sufficient rear axle limit (significantly over 2 tonnes) to comfortably take the added load, all of which point to an MAM well above 3,500kg. That ends up as quite a small pond to fish in.

 

Sorry, I hadn't realised you'd had unsatisfactory experience loading the scooter into the garage of a previous van so had discounted that possibility.

[Barryd999]

Brian Kirby - 2022-05-15 5:03 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2022-05-15 1:31 PM......................................

Thanks Brian. On paper they look ok for carrying a scooter as do a few other motorhomes with large garages but its too big a compromise I fear on layout and Ive never really fancied an A class.

But, none of the vans I instanced were Kreos A Class vans. You didn't really look, did you? . ;-)

 

It's that U shaped rear lounge you're really after, isn't it - which more or less limits your choices to UK produced vans. Add the need for an AlKo chassis to get sufficient (though you'd need to check and verify in each case) strength for the scooter rack, plus a sufficient rear axle limit (significantly over 2 tonnes) to comfortably take the added load, all of which point to an MAM well above 3,500kg. That ends up as quite a small pond to fish in.

 

Sorry, I hadn't realised you'd had unsatisfactory experience loading the scooter into the garage of a previous van so had discounted that possibility.

 

I did look. I presume you meant the PDF link you posted and the first few I looked at were A class but didnt realise it was such a long PDF with literally loads of models some of which are of course coach built but it would appear none have our preferred layout. There are one or two German vans with U shaped lounges but from research some time ago none are on the Alko Chassis or their payload is not up to the job.

 

It is a small pond to fish in, correct but there is a fish or two in it! (lol) Its just taking a while to catch one.

 

I have not had first hand experience of loading a scooter into a garage but I have on several occasions watched with some amusement and I have to admit at times slight smugness on Aires my fellow travellers struggling to get them in or out. Not impossible but a huge step back from what we have now which is just so easy its unbelievable.

 

I have had a reply from the van conversion place in Darlington. They reckon £20k to convert our van to the spec I gave them. I have asked for some examples of similar work. Could be an interesting project. Get the right van with the right heavy chassis and the layout of your choice and it could be perfect. It may not be even that much of a downsize.

[Brian Kirby]

Could well be Barry, but at least you'd get exactly what you want, subject to the practicalities. But can you get a scooter rack that won't obstruct the rear doors?

 

My only comments on PVCs is to be aware that there is often a need to open the rear doors and you don't always meet that need when the sun is shining! Gas cylinder locker comes to mind! If you can get that sited for access via the side door it could be an advantage, though it might then compromise storage in the kitchen block. If not, then try to get it sited for access via the first opening rear door, because ours is behind the second opening door and that opens the whole of the rear to the weather!

 

Also useful would be a "jammer" to prevent the sliding door opening full width if you don't actually want that. Same reason. If you have to duck out in bad weather, and the van is even slightly nose up, the door fully opens itself while you're in transit!

 

Insect screen on sliding door pretty much essential and, if you do incorporate a rear lounge in the van, you may also want one on the rear doors.

 

Do check how they'll insulate the van shell. Many seem to use fibreglass, which is not really satisfactory and needs a very carefully and thoroughly installed vapour barrier between it and the interior, or you'll suffer condensation on the inside of the steel van body-shell. It would be preferable to have a closed cell insulant which itself prevents the passage of moisture vapour. It still needs a good vapour barrier inside, but if that is properly done the inside of the steel shell should remain dry. It is very difficult to maintain vapour barriers where electrical and gas installations are routed in the walls/ceiling (and even floor), as the electricians and gas fitters keep making holes through the barrier to get their stuff through the internal linings, so maintaining the seal becomes a real pain!

 

The problem is that the steel van body-shell provides a 100% vapour barrier, which means that any humidity inside the van (which occupation will inevitably create) will eventually get through to the outer skin. So in cold weather, unless the insulant is closed cell type, and is protected by a good vapour barrier, both it and the inside of the van body-shell will eventually become damp, reducing insulation efficiency and potentially causing out of sight corrosion. It's all in the details! Good luck! :-D

[Barryd999]

A lot to think about. Yes I wondered about the rear doors with a rack on. I would actually prefer it if they weren't any rear doors or they were blocked off. Its a hell of a lot to think about but perhaps an option worth exploring further. Maybe ill join one of the PVC self build forums, see what they know.

 

There could of course be something "off the self" that is suitable if its built on the heavier Merc Sprinter or heavier fiat Chassis. There are so many models though its like looking for a needle in a haystack. The chances of finding something with the right layout, payload and thats actually for sale are slim.

[laimeduck]

Barryd999 - 2022-05-15 1:31 PM......................................

 

I have not had first hand experience of loading a scooter into a garage but I have on several occasions watched with some amusement and I have to admit at times slight smugness on Aires my fellow travellers struggling to get them in or out. Not impossible but a huge step back from what we have now which is just so easy its unbelievable.

 

 

I load our MadAss 125cc, 100Kg into the garage and can easily do it on my own. It's 5 mins Max, less if my wife helps.

 

I push the bike up the ramp backwards and because my left hand is on the front brake, can stop at any point. Once the rear wheel is on the floor of the garage I inch the bike up by rotating the front wheel with my right hand, either on the tyre or the solid spokes.

 

I think the problem with scooters is that the wheels are so small so you can't use them to help get the bike up the ramp. I think you have total control if you push the bike up backwards, and little control if you try to do it forwards. But with the spoked wheels of a Honda Vision I don't see it would be a problem at all. You would have to remove the rear view mirrors each load, but that's not a problem either.

I also ensure that the bike is as close to the front garage bulkhead as possible, to minimise the overhang problem.

The rear fixed double bed on the Benimar is moveable vertically. So when we are loading we have it high, then at destination we remove the MadAss and chain her to the towing eye, and the bed is lowered for normal use.

 

So in summary, I wouldn't discount putting your bike in the garage - with a bit of planning and some thought it works well - and of course is out of sight when stopped.

 

Jeremy

 

[simian]

Brian Kirby - 2022-05-16 12:10 PM

 

Could well be Barry, but at least you'd get exactly what you want, subject to the practicalities. But can you get a scooter rack that won't obstruct the rear doors?

 

My only comments on PVCs is to be aware that there is often a need to open the rear doors and you don't always meet that need when the sun is shining! Gas cylinder locker comes to mind! If you can get that sited for access via the side door it could be an advantage, though it might then compromise storage in the kitchen block. If not, then try to get it sited for access via the first opening rear door, because ours is behind the second opening door and that opens the whole of the rear to the weather!

 

Also useful would be a "jammer" to prevent the sliding door opening full width if you don't actually want that. Same reason. If you have to duck out in bad weather, and the van is even slightly nose up, the door fully opens itself while you're in transit!

 

Insect screen on sliding door pretty much essential and, if you do incorporate a rear lounge in the van, you may also want one on the rear doors.

 

Do check how they'll insulate the van shell. Many seem to use fibreglass, which is not really satisfactory and needs a very carefully and thoroughly installed vapour barrier between it and the interior, or you'll suffer condensation on the inside of the steel van body-shell. It would be preferable to have a closed cell insulant which itself prevents the passage of moisture vapour. It still needs a good vapour barrier inside, but if that is properly done the inside of the steel shell should remain dry. It is very difficult to maintain vapour barriers where electrical and gas installations are routed in the walls/ceiling (and even floor), as the electricians and gas fitters keep making holes through the barrier to get their stuff through the internal linings, so maintaining the seal becomes a real pain!

 

The problem is that the steel van body-shell provides a 100% vapour barrier, which means that any humidity inside the van (which occupation will inevitably create) will eventually get through to the outer skin. So in cold weather, unless the insulant is closed cell type, and is protected by a good vapour barrier, both it and the inside of the van body-shell will eventually become damp, reducing insulation efficiency and potentially causing out of sight corrosion. It's all in the details! Good luck! :-D

 

FWIW I'll make comment or 2 on a few of the issues mentioned.

 

On some PVCs combined with specific layout planning it is possible to obtain reasonable access by opening the leading (active) leaf without opening the trailing leaf.

On my own van in it's latest incarnation, I have the kitchen unit at the rear which is narrower (550mm) than say a single bed would normally be (700mm). This leaves a 350mm gap, enough through which to manhandle a 13kg gas cylinder, cassette etc.

 

Not easy solving the rear barn door access combined with m/bike on rack arrangement.

 

The compromise I came up with was a rack on telescoping rails, when I need rear door access, the rack is extended up to 550mm, which provides a reasonable door gap,.....pot bellies excepted.

The rails are on ballbearings so very little effort to shift manually on level surfaces more effort if on a slope, but an electric motor does the work in any case.

 

I have used fibreglass insulation in the van ceiling, fully aware of the pitfalls. However as a self build I made absolutely certain all openings were sealed. PVC conduit for cabling made near it a near certainty that I could get future wiring where needed without compromising the integrity of the vapour barrier. It's been there c. 25 years no signs of rust. But I probably wouldn't recommend if the work was being carried out by a 3rd party particularly someone working to a timetable/bonus scheme.