Insulation grants

[amyjones]

Anyone here received any insulation grants yet? I understand it's quite a slow process, but I'm getting impatient! Has anyone else applied and heard anything back yet? 

I know a few people who have applied for grant funding to insulate their homes. The wait time has been quite long in some cases and can be really frustrating. Have you had any kind of update from the Energy Company yet? It would be great to hear if anyone else is in the same boat. 

[Brian Kirby]

Just a small note of caution - about the eventual insulation, not the grant! 

Depending on the age and construction of your home you may need specialist advice on how best to proceed.  It seems that some, at least, of the firms who install home insulation lack the technical knowledge required to install the insulants most suitable for certain construction forms.

People have been given the somewhat misleading impression by the trade and, unfortunately, also by government, that installing "stuff" called "insulation" is a universal panacea for perpetual happiness.  If happiness is to be measured in reduced heating costs alone that may be fine.

However, with certain, especially older, and especially if built with solid (i.e. not cavity) external walls, installing the wrong kinds of insulants can result in accelerated deterioration of the fabric.

If your home is of recent build you should be OK, especially if it was built during the past 40 or so years.

Older than that, but post WW2 should also be OK, and is most likely to have cavity external walls - but it would be wise to have the condition of the cavity wall ties checked before going ahead with cavity wall insulation. 

Between the wars with cavity external walls definitely get the condition of the ties checked, and be prepared for them to need replacement before installing cavity wall insulation. 

Pre WW1 and I think it would be wise to take advice from a local (because they will be familiar with historic local construction practices) building surveyor (i.e. not an estate agent's surveyor) before considering almost any degree of insulation - even roof insulation.

Also, be aware that If your home is listed, or in a conservation area, you may also need listed buildings consent (unlikely, but there are penalties for unauthorised interventions, so wisest to check first) before installing insulation, especially if it may change the appearance of the building - for instance if part of the insulation package were replacement, double glazed, windows.

Proceed with caution, and get the right advice plus a knowledgeable contractor, and the end result will be significantly reduced heating costs with no impact on building fabric.

If you're looking for substantially reduced energy consumption, do be wary also of heat pumps.  They are promoted as much more economical to run than conventional gas, oil, or solid fuel boilers.  They can be, but their present shortcoming is that they cannot supply water to radiators at the same temperature (approx 65-70C) as those other boilers.  It seems the best they (especially air-source heat pumps) can achieve is somewhere between 30 and 40C. 

If you have an existing central heating system with panel radiators, this will not provide the same levels of comfort, especially in colder weather, as did your boiler.  This means that larger radiators are required to cater for the lower temperatures heat pumps generate which, in many, if not most, cases, means that a complete new central heating system will be needed to reinstate comfort.  That, in turn, means considerable disruption while the work is done, possible redecoration as a result, and much greater cost than a simple "swap boiler for heat pump" comparison would suggest.  So, while they can do all that is claimed, achieving that end is significantly more costly than simply replacing the existing boiler with a heat pump.  As with the insulation, do your homework before jumping in.  🙂 

Apologies to the mods for the lengthy "off motorhomes topic" post.  🙂 

[John52]

Also beware of letting cold callers into your loft ... crack a few roof tiles...say you need repairs etc...  Before you know where you are the roof is off and they are demanding more money up front .. it happens

[Barry Lineker]

On 3/13/2023 at 3:34 PM, amyjones said:

Anyone here received any insulation grants yet? I understand it's quite a slow process, but I'm getting impatient! Has anyone else applied and heard anything back yet? 

I know a few people who have applied for grant funding to insulate their homes. The wait time has been quite long in some cases and can be really frustrating. Have you had any kind of update from the Energy Company yet? It would be great to hear if anyone else is in the same boat. 

We had ours insulated at our own cost with blown insulation. What they never said when they quoted was that when we had it done, they'd have to install vents in the rooms with open fires, even though those the 2 fires were baxi grates with their own independent air supply.

So because of Elf & Safety we ended up with 2 unnecessary holes in the walls which caused the house to be even colder than before it was insulated! 

Now sorted as I've filled their vents with insulation😏

[Derek Uzzell]

The information on this link suggests that the extra ventilation requirement is relatively recent.

https://dysonenergyservices.co.uk/new-ventilation-requirements-and-cavity-wall-insulation-what-householders-need-to-know/

Our brick-built house was constructed in 1987 and is in an exposed rural location. We moved there in January 1993 and  it soon became apparent that, when the the wind was blowing, the house hemorrhaged heat. There was a central open fireplace (now housing a wood-burner) but that was hopelessly ineffective and the oil-fuelled central-heating struggled.

We decided to have glass-fibre blown into the wall cavities and the installers arrived early one Friday morning, confidently saying that they would be gone by midday. I warned them that the mortar was hard and (because I'd checked in the attic) that the cavity was wide. "No problem", they said and they were still there at 6pm having pumped bags and bags of glass-fibre into the walls and worn out all their drills. Best 'home improvement' we ever made, with the wood-burner a close second.

[John52]

2 hours ago, Derek Uzzell said:

they were still there at 6pm having pumped bags and bags of glass-fibre into the walls and worn out all their drills. Best 'home improvement' we ever made, 

I was going to say you were lucky to have a contractor who stayed and did a proper job.

But then England still had proper Trading Standards in those days.

Doesn't seem to be anybody checking on them now?

[Brian Kirby]

It is excellent in principle, but it seems to me to share the same underlying flaw as admittance of "Approved Inspectors" to Building Regulations approvals.  That is to say, that all those involved have a financial interest in approval of the work - because if the work is not approved it cannot progress, and hence no-one gets paid.  It will be interesting to see how it works in practice, but I suspect that will take many years to become clear.

Although Local Authority Building Control departments were much maligned as a major cause of delay to construction, that was mostly due to staffing shortages, in turn largely the result of government restrictions on LA funding.  So yes, the resulting backlogs did result in increased approval times.  The way this was "resolved" was to allow appropriately qualified private consultants to apply to become "Approved Inspectors", and then grant Regulations approvals in parallel with the Local Authorities - while being free to do so across the whole country, whereas the LAs could only approve works in their own areas.

So, what does a developer look for when seeking approval?  Why, approval, of course - as quickly and as cheaply as possible.  The Local Authority, o.t.o.h, can only work within their area, is obliged to publicly declare their costs, is not particularly biddable in offering "inventive" work-arounds, and sticks to the rules.  You apply, you submit whatever details of the work the LA requires, and you await approval before you start work, with periodic inspections as the work progresses.

From what has already emerged from the Grenfell Enquiry, this is not what the (so far anonymous) Approved Inspector did.  In that case, it seems, the Inspector gave approval as the works progressed, and plainly acquiesced in (or promoted) approval of non-compliant materials.  So quicker and cheaper, but in that case (and all the others where similar mistakes were made), as the fire so tragically demonstrated, far more risky.

It is that aspect of this self certifying ('though "approved") Tower of Babel of inspectors and approvers that seems to be contemplated by PAS 2035 that worries me.  OK, installing insulation in buildings should be low risk in terms of loss of life, but if a corner can be cut, in my experience, someone will cut it.  So while it is unlikely anyone will die, future rectification of avoidable errors, especially if , for example, unsuitable insulant has been used in cavity walls, is liable to cost the owner of the affected building a pretty sum - as most cavity wall insulants, once installed, are very difficult (i.e. expensive!) to remove.  Deja vu - again?  🙂 

[colin]

The change to inspectors came around the time we where building a house, seemed a very poor idea to me at time.

[John52]

I can't see any reason for changing the inspection system other than the drive towards privatisation. Might seem a good idea to a Members of Parliament hired by vested interests?

Panorama higlighted Lewisham council who sold a Council house for £15,000 which they are now renting back for £60,000 per year in Housing Benefit (Private landlord has split it into 5 substandard flats)

Get ready for another Council Tax hike.

[John52]

Just to add to Brian's excellent assessment I have noticed the efficiency figures quoted for Heat pumps are often incredibly optimistic.

My understanding is they are about 2 - 5 times more efficient than a resistance electric heater depending on installation?

5 times being a cold climate coupled with a free heat source like warm water being pumped from a borehole

Most areas of England also have a dire shortage of trained heat pump engineers.

[Globebuster1]

56 minutes ago, John52 said:

I can't see any reason for changing the inspection system other than the drive towards privatisation. Might seem a good idea to a Members of Parliament hired by vested interests?

Panorama higlighted Lewisham council who sold a Council house for £15,000 which they are now renting back for £60,000 per year in Housing Benefit (Private landlord has split it into 5 substandard flats)

Get ready for another Council Tax hike.

Well done John 52 - another thread hijacked by political opinion - you seem unable to resist foisting your views on to Chatterbox.

How is it that Brian can give a thorough, experienced opinion on the matter without political comment, whereas you resort to it in the first paragraph of your reply!

[colin]

1 hour ago, John52 said:

Just to add to Brian's excellent assessment I have noticed the efficiency figures quoted for Heat pumps are often incredibly optimistic.

My understanding is they are about 2 - 5 times more efficient than a resistance electric heater depending on installation?

5 times being a cold climate coupled with a free heat source like warm water being pumped from a borehole

Most areas of England also have a dire shortage of trained heat pump engineers.

From what I can gather from both online and people I know who have had heat pumps, they need to be installed correctly and then used correctly. All except one household I know who have installed heat pumps are happy with them, but these all previously had either oil, storage or solid fuel heating. The one who was not happy seemed to have, relatively, small radiators, and tried using it like their old oil heating, i.e. a blast of heat in morning and evening, the way they work best seems to be with 'oversized' rads, and longer periods being on, if not continuously on. The latest models are showing greater efficiencies at lower temperatures. I have an interest as we have several options on upgrading a rental home to get it's EPC up to band C, but am reluctant to do it if the tenant doesn't run it correctly.

[Brian Kirby]

2 hours ago, colin said:

...........................................The one who was not happy seemed to have, relatively, small radiators, and tried using it like their old oil heating, i.e. a blast of heat in morning and evening, the way they work best seems to be with 'oversized' rads, and longer periods being on, if not continuously on. The latest models are showing greater efficiencies at lower temperatures. I have an interest as we have several options on upgrading a rental home to get it's EPC up to band C, but am reluctant to do it if the tenant doesn't run it correctly.

If you haven't already found it, you may find this website of interest, Colin  https://tinyurl.com/2nwz9fan  It might be that a "high temperature" heat pump would work, but the comments regarding the high initial cost and higher electricity consumption may lead you to question the present economics.  However, those relativities may change as more manufacturers jump in.

We just replaced our gas boiler last August.  Not that expensive, and a bit more economical to run that the previous one - thanks mainly to better controls.  Its only a "holding" solution until the selection of heat pumps increases and prices drop, or we all get switched to hydrogen (its "hydrogen ready"), or, or, or .....................  🙂   

[Barry Lineker]

3 hours ago, colin said:

From what I can gather from both online and people I know who have had heat pumps, they need to be installed correctly and then used correctly. All except one household I know who have installed heat pumps are happy with them, but these all previously had either oil, storage or solid fuel heating. The one who was not happy seemed to have, relatively, small radiators, and tried using it like their old oil heating, i.e. a blast of heat in morning and evening, the way they work best seems to be with 'oversized' rads, and longer periods being on, if not continuously on. The latest models are showing greater efficiencies at lower temperatures. I have an interest as we have several options on upgrading a rental home to get it's EPC up to band C, but am reluctant to do it if the tenant doesn't run it correctly.

During recent renovations we installed wet underfloor heating with a gas boiler, as research showed that if we are forced to replace the boiler by the tree huggers with a heat pump in the future, then underfloor heating is the best way to use a low heat source.

We also fitted a log burner with oven and hob as a back up heat and cooking system, which came in very useful this winter. but with regard to John52's claim that the UK building inspection system has become relaxed, I'd say that was rubbish, as in a previous property I fitted a multi fuel stove myself without restrictions. This stove had to be fitted by a HETAS qualified installer or else we would not have got our completion certificate.

[colin]

4 hours ago, Brian Kirby said:

If you haven't already found it, you may find this website of interest, Colin  https://tinyurl.com/2nwz9fan  It might be that a "high temperature" heat pump would work, but the comments regarding the high initial cost and higher electricity consumption may lead you to question the present economics.  However, those relativities may change as more manufacturers jump in.

We just replaced our gas boiler last August.  Not that expensive, and a bit more economical to run that the previous one - thanks mainly to better controls.  Its only a "holding" solution until the selection of heat pumps increases and prices drop, or we all get switched to hydrogen (its "hydrogen ready"), or, or, or .....................  🙂   

I've seen a few, but so far they seem to work out more expensive than the present boiler, they would improve the EPC, but at a high installation cost and quite probably higher running cost. The basic concept of using the EPC is flawed, the house has quite good insulation, and doesn't cost a great deal to heat, but as the boiler is non condensing it misses band C by couple of points. I could still just fit a condensing boiler, it would take the house well up band C, but in reality save hardly anything.

[colin]

4 hours ago, Barry Lineker said:

During recent renovations we installed wet underfloor heating with a gas boiler, as research showed that if we are forced to replace the boiler by the tree huggers with a heat pump in the future, then underfloor heating is the best way to use a low heat source.

We also fitted a log burner with oven and hob as a back up heat and cooking system, which came in very useful this winter. but with regard to John52's claim that the UK building inspection system has become relaxed, I'd say that was rubbish, as in a previous property I fitted a multi fuel stove myself without restrictions. This stove had to be fitted by a HETAS qualified installer or else we would not have got our completion certificate.

I know someone with heat pump and underfloor, they think it's great.

[John52]

16 hours ago, Globebuster1 said:

Well done John 52 - another thread hijacked by political opinion - you seem unable to resist foisting your views on to Chatterbox.

How is it that Brian can give a thorough, experienced opinion on the matter without political comment, whereas you resort to it in the first paragraph of your reply!

Because I can't see any other reason for changing the building inspection to what we have got now.  Can you enlighten us?  Why was it done?  What are the benefits?

Or is it too political to even enquire what has gone wrong?

[John52]

11 hours ago, Barry Lineker said:

with regard to John52's claim that the UK building inspection system has become relaxed, I'd say that was rubbish, 

So what do you think happened at Grenfell Tower?

or is it too 'political' to ask that as well?

[John52]

12 hours ago, Barry Lineker said:

with regard to John52's claim that the UK building inspection system has become relaxed, I'd say that was rubbish, as in a previous property I fitted a multi fuel stove myself without restrictions. This stove had to be fitted by a HETAS qualified installer or else we would not have got our completion certificate.

I said inspection system

There are plenty of laws, but who is inspecting and enforcing them

Just as an example the new laws to ban nitrous oxide to stop people littering our parks with the canisters.  Littering was already illegal.  Whats the point of all these new laws to make it more illegal than it was already when no one is inspecting or enforcing them as at Grenfell?

(other than dare I say political headline grabbing)

[amyjones]

Thanks for all your suggestions. My house is of almost 50 years old..so thinking about doing cavity wall insulation  and double glazing windows. Also looking into loft insulation too. Not sure how much it would cost..any advice? 

Any other ideas on how to save energy in a home of this age? I've heard about solar panels and biomass boilers, but don't know if these are suitable for my house. Any help is appreciated!

[colin]

I would echo Brians first post. I would note that without grants the payback on some items can be very long, you should consider that a well insulated home should be more comfortable to live in. Meanwhile you can ensure you are not wasting power on lighting, if you still have halogen or incandescent bulbs investigate swapping them for LED, replacements can be brought from the likes of Screwfix or Toolstation at reasonable prices.

[Barry Lineker]

On 3/31/2023 at 10:55 PM, colin said:

I know someone with heat pump and underfloor, they think it's great.

Yeah but how much was their heatpump?😏

When we did our renovations I used a quid pro quo calculation to work out my design spec, which is why I went for a cheap as chips gas boiler and a 2000ltr rainwater harvesting tank......as our water is the most expensive in the country😮

[Barry Lineker]

On 4/1/2023 at 6:45 AM, John52 said:

I said inspection system

There are plenty of laws, but who is inspecting and enforcing them

The council building control people inspected on a regular basis, ensuring our work was carried out in line with current regs.

So no need to spread fake news about unregulated systems.

There will always be dodgy builders and tradesmen, the people who fall foul of them usually only have themselves to blame.

Due diligence is not just about finding the cheapest price.😏

[colin]

56 minutes ago, Barry Lineker said:

Yeah but how much was their heatpump?😏

When we did our renovations I used a quid pro quo calculation to work out my design spec, which is why I went for a cheap as chips gas boiler and a 2000ltr rainwater harvesting tank......as our water is the most expensive in the country😮

Their heating system is pretty big, a ground source which also includes several 'eco lodges', no gas to their property.

[John52]

51 minutes ago, Barry Lineker said:

The council building control people inspected on a regular basis, ensuring our work was carried out in line with current regs.

So no need to spread fake news about unregulated systems.

There will always be dodgy builders and tradesmen, the people who fall foul of them usually only have themselves to blame.

Due diligence is not just about finding the cheapest price.😏

You can tell us anything.  But they obviously aren't inspecting buiding works where they should - even in their own buildings like Grenfell Tower

On the Panorama programme, regarding Lewisham Council now paying £60,000 a year in housing benefits for a house they sold for £15,000, they quite clearly hadn't inspected the substandard rooms they are paying for in there either.