Fiat Ducato reminder.

[simians]

4 hours ago, John52 said:

Probably rot away instead. I have been shocked by the bodyshell rust I have seen on Sprinters.

My 15 year old garden shed Citroen Relay (X2/50) van hasn't got a speck of rust visible on the bodyshell - even where self tappers have pierced the floor with wet and rotten plywood around them under the shower.  The galvanising has protected even the wet exposed steel like the sacrificial anodes on a boat.

Although thats no comfort when the engine is knackered after 93,000 miles. 

Mine's not a Sprinter, but it does have an equally unenviable reputation for body rot, however I've had mine for 27 years (from near new)and its survived with relatively little body rust, due no doubt to a bit more attention than the average commercially owned van. A truck ladder chassis helps keep overall structural integrity, but seats and seat belts are affixed to the sheet steel cab, and this area would be subject to rot just as any monocoque or semi mono would. My cab is virtually rust free...AFAIK !

[Hans]

My Range rover was in the garage. Diesel ford engine, Now they make their engines themselves. For years i had contact whit their chief engineer. It has now 82000 km on the clock. And he said it is wise to change the valve distribution. The engine can run up to 250000 Km if well maintained.

[Brian Kirby]

On 3/22/2023 at 2:56 PM, simians said:

With it being almost certainly an 'interference' engine, that's obviously a wise move. Approx. £1500 seems a bit steep to me, ie  say 7x @£125 for labour leaving £625 for a belt, w/pump and tension pulley 🤔.

If anyone is still following, the job was completed Wednesday and the van collected yesterday.  Final cost for cambelt, water pump etc. (Fiat "kit") plus all labour at a Fiat Professional workshop, £1212.38 inc. VAT.  It seems to have been successful, with no unexpected "add-ons" - and the van drove the 15 miles back home without incident. 

After the airbag control module failure incident I had received a letter from Stellantis offering a £150 contribution to the next service, as a goodwill gesture.  So, I asked Fiat Customer Services whether this could be used against the cost of the cambelt change, and they said yes.  When I delivered the van to the workshop I presented the letter and said that Fiat had advised it was valid against the cambelt change.  Workshop checked and advised that the cambelt was not classed as a service item, but as an item subject to wear and tear, against which the letter could not be accepted.  So back to Fiat C/S for final ruling.  Fiat C/S then referred to Fiat Technical, who replied that the workshop was correct and C/S were wrong.

Van first registered 1/12/17.  Low mileage (currently 14,000), so biennial servicing. 

First service Nov 2019, £236.  1st MoT Nov 2020 threw up oil level sensor calibration wrong requiring re-calibration, combined cost £152.65.  2nd service + 2nd MoT 2021, £321.51.  3rd MoT Nov 2022, failed on airbag warning, requiring airbag control module replacement (discounted price from Fiat) £335.02.  Cambelt replacement after 5 years 2033, £1212.38.  Total maintenance cost over 5 years: £2,257.74 = £451.55 per year.

Compared to our other vans, that seems high.

[onecal]

Wow,

Yes I think so Brian

What I don't like is, the non reliability that has crept back in (what next is going to go next)

Some people are now getting so much trouble these days  (not just with Fiats) that is has become a worry of getting home without a mechanical/electrical mishap of some sort 

Something I thought we left behind in the 70's/80's 

Regards

[Robinhood]

The service cost, exacerbated by a singular lack of trust in any of my 3 nearest Fiat Professional dealers, is why I choose to carry out routine servicing myself.

Experience of said "Professional" dealers, both in the standard of service and the level of knowledge of the vehicle has convinced me I'll be more confident of the job being done properly if I do it my self. (One branch, which has a huge contract servicing Ducato-based vehicles for the local ambulance service has but one fully Fiat- trained technician. He's adequate, but still somewhat lacking in knowledge, and doesn't get anywhere near serviced vehicles under normal circumstances - you pay lot's of dosh for the grease-monkey apprentice to do it).

On one occasion the 'van was literally undriveable when I picked it up, (large leaf deposited  in the air cleaner during servicing preventing engine going over tick-over - diagnosing the issue was the one occasion they impressed me, and yes, it was the Fiat-trained guy that sorted it)), and on another the service interval hadn't been reset (and I had to return and show the trained Fiat technician how to do it with his laptop!). 

Another branch had absolutely no understanding of the Fiat service schedules (though a Fiat Professional dealer, their main business was Iveco, and they wanted to use the Iveco schedules - same basic engine, entirely different service schedules).

FP commercial servicing labour rates have always been high, but now attract almost the same cost as the prestige "glass palace" prestige car dealers (for a singularly less attractive set of premises and experience). When I had a Transit-based 'van, the local Ford dealer who serviced my car but was also a Transit specialist had a significantly lower labour rate for vans than for cars, and the only difference was you booked in at the other end of the service reception.

So, a full 2-year service for my Ducato (air, oil, fuel, pollen filters, Selenia oil and sump washer - all genuine Fiat parts) cost c£160 plus my labour. I can also grease the Alko Chassis for virtually nothing. I've invested in Multiecuscan and cables, which pays back after the first servicing, and has enabled a cost-effective airbag diagnosis and replacement. I haven't seen a Fiat Professional dealer yet that uses Selenia oil, more likely bulk Fuchs - which would save me another £25 or so if substituted.

All the (standard) servicing is fairly straightforward (though I am a "failed" mechanical engineer), and I get much satisfaction from knowing everything has been done properly. The fuel filter is a bit messy, but the worst job is the pollen filter!

I know my limits - the timing belt will be replaced by other than me (but by a trusted independent, not at extortionate FP prices). FWIW, the rrp of the genuine Fiat kit with the water pump is c£510 (which is what the dealer will charge you for the parts). The exact same (genuine) Fiat kit can be obtained online for c£300 - it's not exactly rocket science where (some of) the money goes with an FP dealer. (A reputable (Dayco/Gates) oem kit will save you another £100 or so, and may well even be the same parts in a different box)).

The main downsides, of course, are the loss of potential "goodwill" if there is an out-of-course incident, and the vehicle misses out on "service campaigns" if there are any. My own experience of say, software updates, is that these campaigns are very hit and miss. Some dealers are described as assiduous in applying them, other simply don't seem to bother (and you won't find out unless you can blag someone to check against your details).  

[euroserv]

Hello Campers,

I don't have the time to visit here very much these days but since i logged in to read a message...

I understand Brian's sentiments regarding 'doing it right' and having the job done by the dealer but i wanted to make aa few things clear for those owners that need to save some money; without compromising the integrity of the job of replacing a cambelt.

The first thing, and it comes up all the time, is the need to replace the water pump. I have recently been in a discussion with an MMM reader who said that a Fiat garage was insisting that they had to change the pump and would not do the job unless they did. This is nonsense.; in the case of the 2.3 engine anyway.

The rationale is generally that the water pump is a minor part that is prone to failure and is easily accessed while doing the cambelt. This is true of most engines but the 2.3 has a large aluminium casting on the end of the engine and to replace it requires the removal of the fuel pump and other items and adds considerably to the difficulty of the job and takes much longer to do. The pump assembly is designed to last the lifetime of the engine and does so. The components inside are well engineered and tough enough and coolant leaks are unheard of, even on vehicles that have covered several hundred thousand miles. The water pumps fitted to other vehicles are smaller, less well made and contain plastic parts that do wear. In the case of Peugeot and Ford engines in particular; they must be replaced and doing so is easy and inexpensive. They are a throw-away part.

The next point is almost as important. I used to purchased cambelt kits from motor factors and they were mostly made by 'Gates' or 'Dayco'. The parts inside were the same 'SKF' bearings and the same 'Continental' belts that were supplied by Fiat and the kit was usually around £75 but this has increased to around £130 now. What is not included in the kit (nor is it in the Fiat kit) is the tensioner bolt and this inexpensive part is an absolute necessity if the tensioner is not going to slip from it's position. It is a 'stretch bolt' and should only be used once. You must always remind the workshop that you use that they must do this.

If you have found a competent workshop that says that they have done the job before, you should be confident that they can use an after-market kit as long as they agree to source the tensioner bolt from Fiat.

If you do this work regularly it can be done in around 4 to 5 hours but if you have corroded suspension mount bolts or screws break when removing the cam belt cover; this can cause delays of another one or two hours. Given that the non Fiat dealer labour rates are much lower, i think it is reasonable to allow for a little extra labour if they have difficulties. If they end up doing the job for nothing; they might not be there next time you need them! Euro 6 engines have more 'stuff' that needs to be moved out of the way so they will take an hour longer to do that Euro 5 engines.

If you still would prefer to get the work done by a Fiat dealer, seek out dealerships that also are Truck dealers. The likes of Sherwood Truck and Guests in the midlands are also Iveco Truck dealers and their labour rates are often lower than those of retail Fiat car sites. Truck sites are also better able to accommodate large vehicles. I can also recommend Ford and Slater in Leicester. They are Daf Truck dealers and used to be Fiat agents. Their staff are very experienced with Ducato's. I was there this week and they had four Ducato's in various states of repair.

If you have a coachbuilt vehicle that has a small 'letterbox' bonnet; this makes the job a good deal more difficult and you should expect at least another hour to be added to the labour and for the mechanic to swear a lot!

I hope that this provides some reassurance.

Nick

[onecal]

Hi

Good points Nick

I am afraid I have to disagree with not replacing the water pump , On "white vans" that do high mileage the pumps actually do last quite a long time yes .But I am afraid in motorhomes that may do very little mileage within a timing belt rated life span the pumps do tend to give trouble and have failed on some motorhomes 

I think it would be very prudent not taking a chance and replace the water pump with new stretch bolt and tensioner every time. 

When going to the bother and expense why take a chance on wrecking your engine 

Again it's a personal decision,  if one wants to take that risk

Regards

[the1andonly]

BRian 

I'm horrified at the price you paid for the cam belt change.

I have a 2017 Rapido first reg in march 2018 so in feb had a quote from Northern Commercials  in Northampton  about  £860  or £1000 with ecu check) but had the job done by Fiat Pro Adams Morey in  Portsmouth (Saab trucks) (reccomended to me) £740. Inc ecu checks.( left at v28 not updated to v32, no problems so no update needed) 

After 1st year low  mileage oil change £240 ( inc ecu update to v28) i do all my own servicing (changing oil each year) (until cambelt) so 5 years servjce costs £1686 plus £800 habitation (no longer required for warranty) 

Ps also bought insurance in the form of a spare MAP and Dpf differential sensor and LPEGR cooler (£70 ebay) Multiecuscan and Alfaobd worthwhile  investments. 

[YorkshireGlobecar]

Cambelt change and Major Service and MOT £750 at my preferred non Fiat local independant garage. Not Fiat parts used, but extremely helpful and knowledgable staff. entire procedure explained to me by the mechanic that did the job. Couldn`t fix the airbag module failure though, so had to go to fiat for that. A new module and half an hour to fit, £550. I know which is better value!

[John52]

On 4/8/2023 at 12:33 PM, onecal said:

 why take a chance on wrecking your engine  (by not changing the water pump)

You are still taking a chance if you do replace the water pump. 

New pumps can fail ...... even when perfectly fitted?

You can't eliinate risk altogether, you are taking a chance on wrecking your engine every time you start it.

I assume the chance of failure is less than with a new pump

And if you are being paid to  fit them why would you not recommend fitting them? - especially since if an old pump fails when you recommended not changing it you are in trouble.

But if its your own vehicle and you are paying to have it fitted I tend to go along with Nick.  Since he has a fleet of Ducatos and not one water pump failure the risk must be very low.  And even if the water pump did fail it probably wouldn't wreck the engine.  So it would only mean you are paying to have some of the work done twice.

[John52]

On 4/8/2023 at 9:32 PM, the1andonly said:

BRian 

I'm horrified at the price you paid for the cam belt change.

I have a 2017 Rapido first reg in march 2018 so in feb had a quote from Northern Commercials  in Northampton  about  £860  or £1000 with ecu check) but had the job done by Fiat Pro Adams Morey in  Portsmouth (Saab trucks) (reccomended to me) £740. Inc ecu checks.( left at v28 not updated to v32, no problems so no update needed) 

After 1st year low  mileage oil change £240 ( inc ecu update to v28) i do all my own servicing (changing oil each year) (until cambelt) so 5 years servjce costs £1686 plus £800 habitation (no longer required for warranty) 

Ps also bought insurance in the form of a spare MAP and Dpf differential sensor and LPEGR cooler (£70 ebay) Multiecuscan and Alfaobd worthwhile  investments. 

Yes well I wouldn't have had it done before selling it either

But,thinking about it, if its being sold to a private buyer it is probably worth doing.

It means he can sell it without apologising for anything.  Immaculate condition and everything done by the manufacturers appointed agent.   You don't have to explain Joe Bloggs garage is as good - even though it probably is.

If the job hadn't been done (at the same Fiat garage) it would have been a black mark against an otherwise immaculate van. 

Buyer might think you had everything done at a Fiat garage till its time to sell it then any cheapo garage would do?

[Globebuster1]

Good to see Nick is still about!

Whilst I've never met him in person, I think his knowledge of the Fiat Ducato range is clearly second to none.

And his knowledge has been invaluable to many on this forum - me included.

I didn't even ask about the water pump when I had the cambelt changed as part of the deal when I bought my last van, because the consensus seems to be it's unnecessary.

What I did do is contact directly, the independent garage who this dealer uses for all their servicing work, and from that conversation, and checking them out on-line I was happy.

The fact that the guy on the phone mentioned the tensioner bolt as part of the conversation was reassuring!

For me, a good independent garage with knowledge of a particular brand is often a far better option than a main dealer with 'trained technicians'

[colin]

10 hours ago, John52 said:

I assume the chance of failure is less than with a new pump

Not so long ago this was discussed on another forum. One member said the belt and pump 'needed' to be replaced at same time, then went on to say the replacement pump failed in less than a year.

'Nick' replaced my cam belt at 5 years, now coming up to 7 years since then and am having it done again, the pump will be accessed after old belt comes off.

[John52]

21 minutes ago, colin said:

One member said the belt and pump 'needed' to be replaced at same time, then went on to say the replacement pump failed in less than a year.

Good point.  Even if the replacement pump was perfect I can well imagine how it could have been badly fitted in such a confined space.

Its a far cry from factory fitting with the engine out.

[Steve928]

The lowest mileage at which I've seen a Ducato 2.3 water pump changed is 7000, on the Adria Owners Group. Apparently replacing the OE factory-fitted pump with a pattern pump DIY while lying on your back on the driveway gave the owner 'peace of mind' that it had been changed 🤔.

[onecal]

Hi 

The point of changing to a new water pump and anything that touches the belt, is that it does not fail !

New pumps , of OE quality fitted correctly , should not fail

That's what preventative maintenance is all about

If one wishes to take a chance and not fit a new pump and the old ones fail and they do ,,,,,well

that is a personal choice, something I definitely would never take a chance on, when going to the expense of changing the belt to prevent engine damage .

Again it's a personal decision,  if one wants to take that risk

Regards

[Steve928]

11 hours ago, onecal said:

..it's a personal decision,  if one wants to take that risk

That is not the 'personal decision' at all - that presumes acceptance of your assessment of the level of risk. The personal decision is to make one's own assessment of the risk and act accordingly.

[John52]

On 4/11/2023 at 12:01 AM, onecal said:

if one wants to take that risk

Which risk?

The risk of the old one failing?

Or the risk of the new one (being incorrectly fitted and) failing like the one mentioned above that failed after a year?

Or the risk of a water pump bolt snapping off making changing the water pump a major engine out job?

I see no definate right or wrong answer here

But when I hear of a guy running a fleet of Ducatos to 350,000 miles plus on the same water pumps without any failures, and someone else having a new water pump fail after a year....  I tend to think 'If it aint broke don't fix it'

[woodburner5]

Hi, Nick are you able to provide the Fiat/Iveco part number for the tensioner stretch bolt please, I have been supplied bolt, part No 16674635, which is 5mm shorter than original bolt,  Part No FI0000016674734,  now not a good number according to Fiat, 

Thank you,

[teccer1234]

Years ago I had my water pump fail in Spain (hymer 544) went to fiat garage was told a 3 hour job, in at 9.00 and by 5.00pm was told we would have to sleep in the garage at night as they had a problem removing the pump, (not enough room to withdraw it, wheel arch in the way), in the morning the young lad working in garage said to me, have you seen what they have done to your motor, I looked and where they had used a 6ft bar to try to shift the motor over they had hit the top pully wheel and broke it off, I realised that was why the boss started work on the motor at 7,30 am istead of normal 9.00am after he had brazed the wheel to repair it, bottom line is they finished the job at 3.00pm on the second day but only charged me for 3 hours work as that was the fiat price to do it.

driving away I noticed that the steering was wobbling so went back and was told my wheels needed balancing so I left.

what it turned out to be was that by leavering over the motor they had driven the drive shaft into the gearbox damanging the bearings.

we left for home next day, got into france and top gear was whining so had to drive the rest of the way home in 4th gear.

at home I had to have the gearbox out and ALL the bearings replaced before I could sell it in good order.

so as somebody said if it aint broke don't fix it.

[Brian Kirby]

On 4/11/2023 at 11:48 AM, Steve928 said:

That is not the 'personal decision' at all - that presumes acceptance of your assessment of the level of risk. The personal decision is to make one's own assessment of the risk and act accordingly.

Well, yes, but................... 🙂

The problem with assessing risks is that one needs knowledge. 

First, one needs to know the probability of the risk event occurring.

Second, one needs to know the consequences should it happen.

Third, one needs to know one's options to negate the risk.

With the cambelt, it seems the probability of breakage depends on a combination of age, pattern of use, wear, and consistent manufacturing quality.  Taking the three together, it seems to me they amount to little more than luck!  Fiat, I assume, has accumulated the relevant data, and has based its service requirements on this.  On the subject of changing the timing belt, the manual says this:  "Advised maximum mileage 192,000 km. Irrespective of the mileage, the timing drive belt must be changed every 4 years for heavy-duty use (cold climates, town use, long periods of idling) or at least every 5 years."  Inevitably, bearing in mind the consequences of breakage, this will be biased in favour of prevention of breakage - if only for reputational protection.

The consequences of a timing belt failure are considerable expense and delay.  There is at least the possibility (unquantifiable, I think) that a new engine would turn out to be the "cheapest" remedy, with substantial labour charges in addition.

The options are, it seems to me, to cross one's fingers, or get it replaced!  🙂  Because it is a long job the labour cost is high.  Hence the recommendation to have the water pump replaced at the same time.  Subsequent failure of the water pump, especially for a commercial van operator who is probably having their vans serviced overnight, is avoidable loss of use of the van while it is recovered for repair and a new water pump sourced and fitted, plus almost the same labour cost as for fitting the cam belt.  It's a sort of "two birds with one stone argument".

So, yer takes yer choice, and yer pays yer money.

From what is said about access around the 2.3 engine in Ducatos, I wonder if it was originally developed for fore and aft installation on RWD vehicles, allowing reasonable maintenance access to both sides, and was then used for transverse installation on FWD vehicles, with insufficient consideration/adaptation given to/for the access difficulties this would create?

[Robinhood]

22 minutes ago, Brian Kirby said:

From what is said about access around the 2.3 engine in Ducatos, I wonder if it was originally developed for fore and aft installation on RWD vehicles, allowing reasonable maintenance access to both sides, and was then used for transverse installation on FWD vehicles, with insufficient consideration/adaptation given to/for the access difficulties this would create?

...essentially the same engine in the Iveco Daily, which has always had RWD, and AFAIK, to this day the engine mounted longitudinally.

[John52]

11 hours ago, Brian Kirby said:

From what is said about access around the 2.3 engine in Ducatos, I wonder if it was originally developed for fore and aft installation on RWD vehicles, allowing reasonable maintenance access to both sides, and was then used for transverse installation on FWD vehicles, with insufficient consideration/adaptation given to/for the access difficulties this would create?

That would explain a lot

To be fair they couldn't have known how much bigger the job of changing the cambelt would become with the extra stuff that would be crammed into the engine compartment over the years to meet the more stringent emissions requirements.

[Derek Uzzell]

Fiat Ducato-badged vehicles have been marketed since 1981 and Iveco Dailys since 1978. As the following Wikipedia entries will show, Ducato has always been front-wheel-drive and Daily has always been rear-wheel-drive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Ducato

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iveco_Daily

As is commonplace with FWD vehicles, the Ducato's motors have always been transversely-mounted, while the Daily's motors have always been longitudinally-mounted as is usual for RWD vehicles. Even when a Ducato or Daily vehicle had 4-wheel-drive, the orientation of the motor did not change.

A transversely-mounted motor saves space in a vehicle's engine compartment (hence the Mini) but as a timing-belt will be at the front of the motor, that space-saving can be expected to make belt replacement trickier than when a motor is longitudinally-mounted. This is a simple fact of life and - when the 2.3litre motor fitted to Dailys was installed in Ducato - there's no doubt whatsoever that Fiat would have been well aware that timing-belt replacement (and maintenance generally) would be less easy for FWD Ducato than for RWD Daily.

[Robinhood]

2 hours ago, John52 said:

That would explain a lot

To be fair they couldn't have known how much bigger the job of changing the cambelt would become with the extra stuff that would be crammed into the engine compartment over the years to meet the more stringent emissions requirements.

As a problem, similar things have existed for years. Back in the day I had a Vauxhall Chevette, a bodyshell designed for the Opel Kadett, and a 1200cc Opel engine. Vauxhall in their wisdom left the shell basically asis (slightly "prettified", and shoehorned their own (ex-Viva) 1256cc engine in. Both were longitudinally mounted.

Working on that could be challenging. I once changed a starter motor, which, even for such a simple job required removal of engine mounts and the engine lifting! (I didn't actually believe the Haynes manual I was working from, ""that can't be right?" ,until, at the final point of removal there was about 5mm too little clearance)