Waterpump

[Hans]

Cam belt change on fiat Ducato. Means always change of the water pump too. Why? Bit of a puzzle?

[Hans]

I give you a tip. The Cam  belt  drives also the water pump.

[colin]

Our van is now 12 years old and had 2 belt changes, still on the original pump. From memory the first vehicle that pumps became an issue was the Astra, it had a very poorly designed water pump, since then it has become common for pumps to be changed even if they don't need to be. Here's a tip, the belt also drives the cams, do you change these as well?

[Derek Uzzell]

12 hours ago, Hans said:

I give you a tip. The Cam  belt  drives also the water pump.

That depends on the model of Ducato and when it was built.

Ducato X250/X290 models with the the 2.3litre 'Multijet' (2.3MJ) motor had a timing- belt that also drove the water-pump. But the 3.0litre motor fitted from 2006 to 2015 had a timing-chain and the water-pump was driven by an auxiliary belt. (There was also a 2.0litre motor that I believe had a timing-belt, but I don't know - because I haven't checked - whether that belt also drove the water-pump.)

When the timing-belt of a Ducato X250/X290 with the 2.3MJ motor is replaced, replacing the water-pump is NOT mandatory and that task is NOT included in the Fiat Ducato service schedule. However, as replacing the water-pump is a time-consuming task, it is common practice when replacing the timing-belt to replace the water-pump as well.

In a fairy recent forum thread I said

Where replacing the timing-belt is concerned, Fiat Professional agents seem to want to replace the motor’s water-pump at the same time. Replacing the water-pump is NOT part of scheduled servicing and received wisdom is that it should last the life of the motor. The pump is a substantial unit and replacing it is not a small, quick or cheap task. The thinking behind changing the belt may be understandable when a ‘commercial’ Ducato has covered a high mileage, as changing just the pump will require the same preliminary work (and labour costs) involved when the timing-belt is replaced. However, on a low mileage Ducato, if a close inspection of the pump reveals no signs of leakage or unusual wear, it’s probably best left alone.

There has been numerous forum discussions about the pros and cons of replacing the water pump and timing-belt simultaneously on the Ducato 2.3MJ motor. To find those discussions, search on 

ducato water pump "euroserv" site:https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk

[Hans]

Nice comment Derek. The clue is that the stress tension increases on the belt during the years. including the pump. deep  under. So change it.

[Derek Uzzell]

Although driving the water-pump will additionally 'load' the timing-belt, the primary incentive for replacing the belt and pump at the same time is that, if the pump NEEDS to be changed later on (eg. if it starts to leak) much of the work required to replace the timing-belt will need to be repeated in order to replace the water-pump. 

This will be apparent from this long YouTube video describes how to change the belt and the pump.

 

[onecal]

Why not do the job right when your doing it at all and avoid extra work later on if the pump fails 

Just because the pump may be difficult to replace , should not be an excuse used by many , or they give no trouble??? or someone told me don't bother 

Regards

[Derek Uzzell]

Always changing the water-pump of a Ducato X250/X290 vehicle (with 2.3litre motor) as part of the timing-belt replacement procedure has been discussed here regularly.

The Fiat owner handbook for Ducato includes service schedule advice on timing-belt replacement, but makes no mention of water-pump replacement.

The Out&AboutLive forums' guru for all things Ducato has, for years, been Nick Fisher (user-name "euroserv"). Nick ran a fleet of commercial Ducato hire vehicles and is now the editor of MMM Magazine's Tech Help section. In intelligence report-writing parlance, Nick would be considered a reliable source and the information he provided would be rated as highly credible.

In September 2021 Nick provided this advice on Ducato water-pump replacement:

I can confirm that Fiat Professional workshops are required only to inspect the pump for signs of leaking and that the water pump is never replaced as a matter of course. I ran hundreds of these engines, many up to 250,000 miles and only replaced one leaking pump. Many of our cam belts were replaced at one of two Fiat workshops that we used and neither of them ever mentioned the pump being replaced. I hope that clears that up.

and in April 2023 Nick commented

The first thing, and it comes up all the time, is the need to replace the water pump. I have recently been in a discussion with an MMM reader who said that a Fiat garage was insisting that they had to change the pump and would not do the job unless they did. This is nonsense.; in the case of the 2.3 engine anyway.

The rationale is generally that the water pump is a minor part that is prone to failure and is easily accessed while doing the cam belt. This is true of most engines but the 2.3 has a large aluminium casting on the end of the engine and to replace it requires the removal of the fuel pump and other items and adds considerably to the difficulty of the job and takes much longer to do. The pump assembly is designed to last the lifetime of the engine and does so. The components inside are well engineered and tough enough and coolant leaks are unheard of, even on vehicles that have covered several hundred thousand miles. The water pumps fitted to other vehicles are smaller, less well made and contain plastic parts that do wear. In the case of Peugeot and Ford engines in particular; they must be replaced and doing so is easy and inexpensive. They are a throw-away part.

So - according to Nick (and the Ducato handbook) - it is not mandatory to replace a normally functioning, non-leaking water-pump during the life of the vehicle, never mind as 'preventive maintenance' when the timing-belt is changed.

[onecal]

Well quite a few water pumps have given trouble on motorhomes that do very low mileage, wonder why?

Yes we all know of the "Sure mine gave no trouble " just as we know of the ones that never bothered to change the timing belt and had no trouble ,"sure why bother mine does no mileage, it's big job and they are just looking for work"! "Don't mind the timeframe on the belt etc etc etc " But we also know of many who ended up with a wrecked engine some more unfortunate than others , hence the preventive maintenance. 

Just because it may be difficult to do , never justifies poor preventative maintenance .especially when one is replacing the timing belt its good preventative maintenance to replace the pump when one is that far into the job and not have to do it all over and have do it again when it could gave been replaced the first time . Unlike the white van man where the van is on the road every day and needed yesterday , this should not a problem for a Motorhome that is doing low mileage for peace of mind at least 

So change your water pump and timing belt as a preventative measure 

Where will the guys be that told you "Ah it's ok leave it alone , mine never gave trouble", 

If YOURS goes ?

With maybe the consequences of a wrecked engine   

Regards

Edited June 4, 2023 by onecal

[Derek Uzzell]

2 hours ago, onecal said:

Well quite a few water pumps have given trouble on motorhomes that do very low mileage, wonder why?...

 

Have they? I don't recall any on-line comments about water-pump-related problems/failures where Ducato X250/X290-based motorhomes are concerned irrespective of the mileage/kilometrage they have covered.

[onecal]

I am afraid so, not everyone puts their misfortunes on line! 

Edited June 4, 2023 by onecal

[rayc]

I guess the question is if there were no requirement for a timing belt replacement how often would the water pump be changed as a precaution against failure?

[onecal]

Would have to be replaced if and when it fails as they do on motorhomes 

So as preventative maintenance as in changing the timing belt or chain , change the pump as well  

Just because it may be difficult to do , never justifies poor preventative maintenance .especially when one is replacing the timing belt its good preventative maintenance to replace the pump when one is that far into the job and not have to do it all over and have do it again when it could gave been replaced the first time . Unlike the white van man where the van is on the road every day and needed yesterday , this should not a problem for a Motorhome that is doing low mileage for peace of mind at least 

So change your water pump and timing belt as a preventative measure 

Where will the guys be that told you "Ah it's ok leave it alone , mine never gave trouble", 

If YOURS goes ?

With maybe the consequences of a wrecked engine 

[colin]

31 minutes ago, onecal said:

I am afraid so, not everyone puts their misfortunes on line! 

As I've posted before, the only 'low mileage' pump failure I'm aware of was when someone had a pump changed when the belt was changed, I have serious misgiving over replacing the original Fiat water pump with a aftermarket one.

[onecal]

Again Colin

I have replaced quite a few ?

[Globebuster1]

rayc makes a good point.

So, I wonder -

How many pumps have been replaced at the cambelt interval because they were actually leaking?

I doubt very few, and if Nick says they're good for the life of the motor, and considered to be of robust construction I'm happy with that.

Lets face it, he probably knows more about the Fiat Ducato than the combined knowledge of this forum - especially given limited activity on OAL these days 😁

It's pointless going over the subject infinitum, it's personal choice.

I think implying you'll an wreck an engine by failing to change the water pump is a bit extreme -  you're more likely to lose coolant and overheat due to a knackered hose or leaky radiator.

Although I'd be interested to know how many onecal has actually replaced, through necessity as was implied in his last post.

Edited June 4, 2023 by Globebuster1

[onecal]

 

Again I have replaced many on motorhomes ? 

Again, when doing the job do it right Just because it may be difficult to do , never justifies poor preventative maintenance .especially when one is replacing the timing belt its good preventative maintenance to replace the pump when one is that far into the job and not have to do it all over again.

 

Where will the guys be that told you

"Ah it's ok leave it alone , mine never gave trouble", 

If YOURS goes ?

With maybe the consequences of a wrecked engine 

Edited June 4, 2023 by onecal

[Globebuster1]

But, Not replacing the pump is not poor preventative maintenance, or not doing the job right!  - Conversely you could argue that the replacing the pump is entirely unnecessary maintenance.

You say you have replaced many on motorhomes [sorry don't understand the ? after that comment]

Just how many Ducato pumps have you replaced through necessity rather than choice?

As I said - pointless in discussing this further, it's a personal decision.

[onecal]

Absolutely not , Of course it is 

Tell that to the numerous motorhome owners that have had issues with pump failures after the T.B. was changed and the pump not changed because it was too big a job ,or someone said Ah it's ok leave it 

its good preventative maintenance to replace the pump when one is that far into the job and not have to do it all over and have do it again when it could gave been replaced the first time . 

 Where will the guys be that told you?

"Ah it's ok leave it alone , mine never gave trouble", 

If YOURS goes ?

With maybe the consequences of a wrecked engine