A cautionary tale.

[Brian Kirby]

Are your number plates secure?  Why?  Read on 🙂

Our daughter is in Italy.  She and family drove down Monday, stopping for the night in SE France.  They were in a car, towing a box trailer.  They checked around the vehicle Tuesday morning before starting the second leg of their journey, and noticed that the rear number-plate was missing from the car.  However, they had the front plate on the car, and the necessary rear plate on the trailer so, for so long as the trailer remained attached to the car, reasoned that the missing rear car plate would not be apparent, and carried on.  They duly arrived at their destination without incident, parking off public roads. 

So far, so good.  😌

Q1.  How to make the car legal to drive when the trailer is detached?  A1.  Remove  plate from trailer and transfer to car.  Q2  How to get back to UK without being fined for absence of missing plate?  A2.  If necessary, take plate from car and reinstate to trailer, and hope missing rear car plate not spotted.  Hmmmmm!

But, better than that, could they get a UK plate made up and posted out to them?

That turns out to be a near impossibility.  Firstly, to get a UK number plate you need to be in UK, as the UK number plate is unique to the UK.  Italian, French, German etc number-plates all being of different designs, suppliers in those countries are unable to obtain/supply UK pattern plates.  Plus, the supply of UK plates is strictly controlled, with plates only being available from registered, authorised, UK suppliers.  In addition, one has to present means of personal identification (passport, photocard driving licence etc.), proof of address (bank or utility statement etc.) and the V5C registration document, to the authorised supplier before they will make up the new plate.  But then, while abroad, you will of course have most of that with you - to meet the legal requirements for driving a UK registered car outside the UK.  So, in effect, you're snookered!

So, I undertook to investigate whether there is an approved "work around" procedure for dealing with this situation in an emergency.  The result of that search was that there does not appear to be any route by which a missing number plate can be supplied while car (or motorhome  😉), driver, and necessary documents, are all outside the UK. 

If anyone is aware of an emergency number-plate supply route we'd all be very grateful to hear of it!

I've contacted the British Number Plate Manufacturers Association, and the DfT, to see what they advise, and have suggested to DfT that there should be a facility to supply plates where one has been lost abroad, as, notwithstanding the apparent absence of such a facility, I can't believe our daughter is the only person to have experienced a plate going AWOL while abroad.  DfT helpfully advise that a response should be sent - within 20 days!  Right!

In their present circumstances, it seems that the trailer plate swap may get them home OK, plus allowing theme to use the car while in Italy - when the missing rear plate would otherwise become immediately obvious.

However, with a solo vehicle, such as a motorhome, and in a wold of ANPR cameras, there is no disguising the absence of whichever plate.  What then?

The ultimate elimination of this risk would appear to be to carry a duplicate set of plates (and fixings) whenever travelling abroad.  But, really?

After all, although her plate seems to have merely dropped off (which definitely shouldn't happen) it is possible that one or other plate suffers irreparable damage (for example while manoeuvring), is nicked by an enthusiastic number-plate collector (or old fashioned villain looking to disguise a stolen car), or is vandalised etc. etc.

Something to bear in mind for you next trip?  I'll update if/when I get replies.  😊

[MikeF]

Sometimes the plate is attached by double sided adhesive  tape, heat or age can degrade the adhesive. 

'Emergency ' plates can be obtained easily though eBay,  not road legal,  but should be OK as a tempory measure. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285197008555

Mike

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks Mike.  I never thought of eBay.!  I'll pass that on.

[Basil]

I have, in the past year, used this company

https://www.a1showplates.com/

andcan totally recommend. Just order and arrange a delivery address, I believe that can be to Europe.

Bas

[laimeduck]

Brian ... I bought an "Ebay" front plate for our Benimar after an advisory on an MOT as the existing was delaminating as the supplying clown dealer had cracked it when drilling.

I believe that the new number plate is quite legal ... why would it not be? it is the person who supplies it that is not legal as they don't see the reg document.

I think it highly unlikely that English Border staff would worry about a rear plate ( unless you reversed up to the booth?) And judging by the number of hand written plates on cars and trailers, the average GB plod would not either? 

With some paper/yellow tape and a marker pen I reckon you would get away with a temporary plate?

Jeremy 

[Adiebt]

Fancy Plates are based in Eire and supply GB legal plates . 

[mtravel]

2 hours ago, Brian Kirby said:

After all, although her plate seems to have merely dropped off (which definitely shouldn't happen) it is possible that one or other plate suffers irreparable damage (for example while manoeuvring), is nicked by an enthusiastic number-plate collector (or old fashioned villain looking to disguise a stolen car), or is vandalised etc. etc.

I didn't understand if it happened in France or Italy.

However, a collector of license plates (purpose to disguise a stolen one) would have stolen both the one in the back and the one in front.

A collector of foreign plates that of the trailer, more convenient to remove.

Vandalism may be there but they probably would have abandoned it nearby.

Max

p.s. Italian number plates are fixed by screws or rivets.

In the event of loss/theft, given that the number plate is a single copy and is transcribed in the vehicle documents, it must be re-registered from scratch.

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks folks.  

Jeremy, your new plate may well be legal.  According to the government website, to be legal, as well as having the correct background colour, font, font colour and letter spacing, the plate must also show "who supplied the number plate, and be marked with a British Standard number - this is ‘BS AU 145e’ for plates fitted after 1 September 2021" and, for info, BS AU 145d for plates fitted before that date.  AFAIK, if it does, it is.  🙂

Max, the plate, having been present before they departed, was missing the next morning, and is presumed to have detached while driving between Coquelles, and Archamps (just south of Geneva on the A40), where they stopped. 

Because the plates are acrylic, and prone to cracking - and eventually splitting if drilled with a metal drilling bit - the current fixing recommendation is to use purpose designed double sided adhesive pads.   Make of that what you will!  😄

My objective, bearing in mind that the car is carrying our daughter, her husband, and their two children (plus FWIW, two dogs!) was to get a plate that is fully street legal in UK (and therefore also street legal elsewhere).  I agree that a show plate would probably suffice if the only difference was the omission of the maker's name and the relevant BS, which is why I passed on Mike's suggestion.  

But really, you'd think the possibility of a plate being lost, stolen or damaged while outside the UK might have crossed someone's mind, and a way to get a replacement authorised might have been arranged - especially as the problem must have arisen before.  Even the possibility that the recommended stick pads may just have been old stock that had lost it's stick!  Hey-ho, and thanks again for the interest/suggestions.

[david lloyd]

I believe (with regard to the return journey) that  providing the vehicle arrangement has the correct plate at the front and rear it is legal in UK. So if they are returning with the correct rear number plate on the trailer they should be ok to get home and then organise a replacement for the lost one.

Of course, your wider thoughts on the possibility of a solo vehicle ‘losing’ a number plate abroad Brian is very pertinent and any response you get will be very i interesting.

David

[Solwaybuggier]

We had a similar situation in France 5 years ago - I suspect the rear plate, which was stuck on with tape, had snagged on bushes on an aire, but we didn’t realise until a French motorhomer pointed it out at lunchtime, a couple of hundred kilometres south.  We were lucky no gendarmes had noticed.  The French car accessory shops couldn’t replicate the British format on their computerised systems, and although the old style pressed metal plates, using a die, seemed to be a temporary solution initially, unfortunately at least one of the letters in our registration number is not used in French plates.

We eventually improvised a replacement with sticky plastic sheet from a diy store, tracing the form of the letters from the front plate.  It won’t have been legally compliant, but didn’t attract police attention over several weeks in France, Spain or Portugal, and more impressively was accepted by ANPR cameras at campsites.

Fortunately, our son was flying out to join us in Portugal, and we got our dealer to send him a duplicate plate.

[mtravel]

17 hours ago, Brian Kirby said:

Because the plates are acrylic, and prone to cracking - and eventually splitting if drilled with a metal drilling bit - the current fixing recommendation is to use purpose designed double sided adhesive pads.   Make of that what you will!  😄

Brian, it was just to say that you are lucky to be able to buy a license plate from a dealer (albeit an authorized one). In other countries (e.g. Italy) such a situation requires the re-registration of the vehicle from scratch.

Maybe that's why our plates are riveted and now I should check but they were once metallic with deep-drawn characters in relief.

[laimeduck]

18 hours ago, Brian Kirby said:

Thanks folks.  

Jeremy, your new plate may well be legal.  According to the government website, to be legal, as well as having the correct background colour, font, font colour and letter spacing, the plate must also show "who supplied the number plate, and be marked with a British Standard number - this is ‘BS AU 145e’ for plates fitted after 1 September 2021" and, for info, BS AU 145d for plates fitted before that date.  AFAIK, if it does, it is.  🙂

 

Brian ... just checked and in a really small font there is a set of initials with a postcode and "BS AU 145e"

So it probably is legal. The font is so small that you have to get on hands and knees to read it though!

The suppliers way of keeping below the radar I guess?

Jeremy

PS I drive an old Saab 900 "N" reg which belonged to an old lady owner from new. She died and I bought it from her daughter.The old lady over about 10 years had it regularly serviced at a garage in Headcorn Kent who from the paperwork I got with the car  ripped her off really badly every time she went there. I covered their name on the rear plate with yellow tape as I didn't want to advertise them. That was several years ago and no one has ever pulled me up for it?

Looks like that regulation has no teeth?

Jeremy

[Brian Kirby]

5 hours ago, laimeduck said:

Brian ... just checked and in a really small font there is a set of initials with a postcode and "BS AU 145e"

So it probably is legal. The font is so small that you have to get on hands and knees to read it though!

The suppliers way of keeping below the radar I guess?

Jeremy

PS I drive an old Saab 900 "N" reg which belonged to an old lady owner from new. She died and I bought it from her daughter.The old lady over about 10 years had it regularly serviced at a garage in Headcorn Kent who from the paperwork I got with the car  ripped her off really badly every time she went there. I covered their name on the rear plate with yellow tape as I didn't want to advertise them. That was several years ago and no one has ever pulled me up for it?

Looks like that regulation has no teeth?

Jeremy

I know!  🙂  The font declaring compliance with BS 145d on our (now 10 year old) car plates is, I estimate, about an 8, possibly a 10 pt.  The dealer's name address etc are all present and more prominent.  Apparently, MoT testers are supposed to confirm its presence of the BS declaration during the test and, if it's absent, fail it.

Also, the fact that one can obtain "show plates" that are identical (it terms of size, shape, background colour, font size, spacing, and colour) to plates supplied by authorised suppliers over the internet except for supplier's name and postcode + BS compliance declaration, suggests to the that the whole panoply of the regulation is pointless "red tape".

Why?  Because such plates are widely available for sale on-line, and those sellers do not demand sight of V5C, passport or photo-card driving licence for proof of personal identity, nor bank or utilities bill/statement to verify registered address.  Apparently, they just post them off!

In short, if you go to an authorised number-plate supplier in person you must supply all the above information, but if you buy on-line you get (so far as I can see) plates which are visually identical to those supplied supplied by the authorised supplier, but with no verification that the vehicle is yours, is properly registered with DVLA, that you are the registered owner, or that you live at the registered UK address.  And this under a government that claims  it wishes to eliminate "red tape".  Extraordinary!  Stable door open and horse three counties away!  

The relevant legislation, for anyone interested, is "The Vehicles Crime (Registration of Registration Plate Suppliers) Regulations 2008" (as amended), which sets out clearly what is required of a prospective purchaser of new, or replacement registration plates (number plates).

Online sales merely sidestep those regulations and, short of hunting down and prosecuting each supplier individually (which would obviously require a non-compliant sale as evidence) simply shoot the above Regulation full of holes.

A buyer seeking a hassle-free replacement for lost, damaged, or stolen plates, who does not live round the corner from an authorised supplier, and who has not read the above regulation (I wonder how many have?), will presumably turn to the on-line sources (who seem generally not to give any advice or warning that what they are selling may well become illegal if attached to a vehicle destined for use on public roads - though I can't for the life of me understand why they don't! 😉).

On the face of it, this just seems to by legislation that is now so unworkable that it has become totally pointless.  Either enforce it, repeal it, or have a proper think, and come up with something that works in the real world.  And while you're at it, make provision for replacements to be provided while driving outside the UK!  Strewth!! 🤣

[John52]

On 6/15/2023 at 4:06 PM, mtravel said:

However, a collector of license plates (purpose to disguise a stolen one) would have stolen both the one in the back and the one in front.

unless he didn't have chance to get the front one?

[John52]

On 6/16/2023 at 7:20 PM, Brian Kirby said:

On the face of it, this just seems to by legislation that is now so unworkable that it has become totally pointless.  Either enforce it, repeal it, or have a proper think, and come up with something that works in the real world.  And while you're at it, make provision for replacements to be provided while driving outside the UK!  Strewth!! 🤣

For years the 'Government' has been in permacrisis with no time to look at legislation like that, and whats left of Trading Standards too overstretched to enforce it.

I got new plates off ebay no problem for a family car.  Just like buying any other car parts. Didn't have to show any documents or anything.  I've never heard of show plates - they look like proper plates to me and they passed the MOT with no comments.

The old plates had been spoiled by holes drilled through them for fixing screws - water and dirt had permeated between the layers so they were difficult to read.

I get over this problem with a dob of plumbers mate in and around the drilled hole before I screw the numberplate on.  Protects the plate from water ingress, and helps to prevent rust.

 

[John52]

I don't know if this is allowed under the new censorship, I guess the only way to find out is to post it and see.

Politics aside, I think its directly relevant to this topic because it explains why so many number plate suppliers no longer bother asking for proof of vehicle ownership before they send you number plates

'Enfield council, in north London, may be about to lose its entire trading standards department. Three of its deeply diminished team of four are being sacked to save costs, and the remaining manager is resigning in protest'

'You assume a litre of petrol goes into your tank because you imagine someone checks. But that happens less and less – and traders know it.'

(and if thats not relevant to motorhoming I don't know what is)

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/20/trading-standards-uk-consumer-goods-britain-europe