Caravan and Camping Club-disillisioned member?

[laikaman]

who benefits from NOT being able to book one night - the club of course, they would rather take a 2 night booking than one because they get more money - it all boils down to money

[laikaman]

woops - sorry wife interrferring and she cant spell either!!!!!! wont do it again - over and out for good!

[carolh]

We are members of the C&CC but we rarely use their sites, much too expensive and as you say you can't book for one night - We wanted to stay at Mablethorpe, so tried to book on the internet, no joy, so rang their booking line at hq - can't book for one night - what said I - 'thats outrageous' and let them know politely what I thought of that rule!

Rang the site, she said, can't book for one night but just turn up - so we did, and the place was 3/4 empty!

I would have been willing to pay full price up front to book for one night!

 

We just use the small sites and I am an active member of our local district association - Charles turns up when he hasn't got TA commitments. And I can go to these weekend meets on my own and am with people I know and who know me, I steward some of these weekends on my own too.

Can't sit at home with the mh just sat there doing nothing now can I?

 

So yes I do think it is worth belonging to the C&CC, but I make it work for us!

Carol

 

[michele]

Well I,m a member of me own club and I have to say that this is a pathetic rule . Must put members off

[W3526602]

Hi,

 

We had to decide whether to join the CC or the C&CC. The C&CC won, partly because their mail-shot indicated they were keener to have us, and anyway, they were cheaper.

 

In the first copy of the magazine that we received, the President's Page had a dig at those people who drove 4x4s. A great start, as we have both a campervan and a 4x4.

 

We found the magazine was less readable than when we were members many years ago.

 

The most annoying thing was the amount of paper that we received every month that was of no interest to us. One day the local council will be charging us to take it away. There seemed to be no way of opting out. How can they claim to be eco-friendly if they produce this much bumf?

 

From what I'm reading on this group, members pay their subscriptions, but priority is given to non-members who want to camp for longer periods. This seems to be due to the "keen members" (aka The Committee) voting against the best interests of other members. That don't seem right.

 

We didn't renew our membership.

 

602

[chas]

Much is posted on here as to the requirements of aire type pitches when abroad, and that motorcaravans only need minimum facilities. The CCC offers many holiday rally sites each year where no booking is required, and that of course includes weekends, provided is water and chemical disposal, sometimes daily newspapers and milk. Many of these sites are in fantastic scenery and at about £5-£7 for 2 adults + children per night makes good economic sense. To obtain all this including weekend rallys you need to be a member, just over £30 a year ! about the same as a subscription to MMM. I dont see the problem. Even out of the holiday season weekend rallys continue with no booking being needed . (lol)

[laikaman]

yes chas thats great but not all of us get weekends off

[chas]

Still cant see the problem, the holiday meets start at easter and run through to October, they vary from 1weeks duration up to about 7weeks duration and nearly all require no booking in advance. If you have to work weekends then that of course makes it difficult, but if you add up all that is included in your subscription, then I consider it good value for money, and in the quiet season I dought that you would not get on a club site if you just turned up, I have never had a problem off season in the week.

[net-traveller]

Delfin Driver - 2007-07-20 1:51 PM

 

We have followed the above with interest and wholeheartedly support Laikaman's views. Although we are not members of the C&CC we have experienced the same response from 4 separate private sites. Clearly, they have to make a profit and they have to balance the risk but we feel that many Friday afternoon workers are being penalised because they cannot get away in time to meet Friday evening reception/office closure times. We think that it is very much a case of supply and demand as the motorhoming and caravanning numbers have increased significantly in the past few years, whereas the number of sites may not have grown so quickly thus giving site owners the upper hand. Maybe, the attrocious weather this Summer and presumably a downturn in bookings might concentrate the site owners' minds and force a rethink but we doubt it. At least the Caravan Club has not gone down this route yet ( we wonder how long it will be!) but we have certainly noticed a trend for later arrival times (12 noon or 1 pm) at their sites and the heavy bookings are often restricting the wardens' flexilbility to extend hours of stay on a Sunday (we would gladly pay a small premium to do so if it were possible). It makes for a very short weekend away.

 

DD

 

I know I'm a bit late joining in here but I thought I would mention a disturbing trend that I have noticed.

 

Many campsites have reduced the number of touring pitches so that they can site holiday homes which make a lot more money for the site.

Other camp sites have gone over to permanent park homes.

Others have shut up shop and sold the land to developers, very lucrative.

 

This may not be representative of the country as a whole but is definitely on the increase in the south.

 

;-)

[Guest caraprof]

davenewell@home - 2007-07-21 8:22 PM

laikaman - 2007-07-21 7:08 PM by the way are you a member?

Sorry, no I'm not. We were members of the CC for a few years until they decided to hide the electric charge in with the pitch fee so we left the CC and joined the C&CC. We were then members of this club for a year but we came to the conclusion that due to work commitments we didn't get the opportunity to use the sites enough to make it worth the annual subs cost. I know there are other benefits like insurance services and cheaper ferry crossings etc but as we already had a good deal on insurance and we don't go abroad they didn't add up to anything like the membership costs. By the way, the latter part of this drivel is also part of the reason we dropped out of the CC, it wasn't just about pitch charges and electric. D.

I'm sorry to argue Dave but this is one reason why I consistently do argue, which is that I hate unfairness.

To state, as you have before, that the CC started 'hiding' its electricity charges in it fees is grossly unfair.

This matter was debated ad infinitum and publicized extensively by the club and was never 'hidden' or done surreptitiously as you imply. Whether or not you agree with the policy is irrelevant, but one thing that you cannot say is that the charges were hidden. They were not.

What do you think most people would make of this statement?

I object to staying on CC sites because I have to pay for the use of lavatories and showers. I have them in my own 'van so why should I pay for them? Surely the club can charge a lower price for those of us who don't want to use their wash blocks? Sure, the club would then have to issue locks for the doors and only give keys to those who've paid and I know that one or two would sneak in on a friend's key, but that's not the point. Why should I pay for something that I don't want?

Now substitute the word 'electricity' for 'showers and lavatories' and you come to realise how outdated this argument is!

[Mel B]

Sorry, but they DO hide their electricity charges in with the pitch fee! You cannot see how much you are being charged for the pitch and how much is for the electricity.

 

It depends on your interpretation of hiding, you choose to take it to mean they are being accused of being devious, I take it to mean they are not obvious in the sense that you cannot tell what proportion of the fee is for them and this is true. Two different interpretations - which one you think of depends on your own mind-set and the way in which you take things.

 

The way I think of it is that I believe the pitch fee is for the pitch, ie to be able to park up on the site, nothing more. The per capita fee pays for the use of the facilities, water etc. The electricity used to be an option, you only paid for it if you needed/wanted it. They then changed the way they did things, not us, so don't please blame members/former members if they are not happy with this change. Yes the government made changes to the way electricity is charged for but there are different ways to deal with this, the CC decided to go one way (the wrong way in my view), the C&CC went the other, much fairer way.

 

We are able to utilise electric hook-up in our 'van but there are others who cannot and face having to pay for it and not being able to use it, it must be infuriating for them. As for showers etc, we have a choice of whether we use them or not, they are not restricted to those who have the capability to use them as the use of electricity can be (no, don't please go down the disability route, that's a whole different matter altogether).

 

As an aside, I would quite happily pay a separate fee for showers as and when I need them as some sites, especially abroad, do. 'Free showers', or those for which there is no additional charge, are not 'green', they encourage people to use them as they are 'free', me I use them when I feel I need to, not just for the sake of it. But then again ... that's another argument altogether!!!!

8-)

[Guest caraprof]

You've totally missed the point I'm afraid. I'm not talking about how they charge now, but the accusation that when they introduced electricity they did it slyly by hiding it, as Dave Newell has said at least twice.

My point was that the CC did not do it slyly or that one day they suddenly upped their prices and 'hid' the electricity charge. As I said, they did it openly and after much discussion. To continue to say that the price is 'hidden' when it is made abundantly clear that your booking includes electricity is the worst kind of sophistry and shows the desperation of your argument! When you book a CC&C pitch, is the cost of your sanitary facilities 'hidden'? What nonsense. The costs are 'included' which is very different from 'hidden'.

Anyway, what caravan site gives you a bill that's itemised into its constituent parts: Just imagine - site fee, shower costs, use of lavatories, electricity etc. What does it matter for God's sake? If the site charges £15 for two people in a motorhome that's all that I'm interested in. I couldn't care less about how they break it up!

The remark about the CC&C shows how much thought you've really given this. The CC only accepts caravans and motorhomes and such was the proportion of them using electricity that it decided that the time had come to make it part of the package. You may not like this but that's up to you.

The CC&C could never do this as it also caters for a large number of tent campers and backpackers etc. who will never need electricity, so making it part of the package was never feasible.

Finally, this decision as I pointed out earlier was made by a committee of members. The odd person may not like it but it does seem to have been widely accepted and hasn't done the club any harm It has simplified the booking procedure and saved the wardens the job of continually looking out for cheaters who would not pay but sneaked a quick plug in during the evening.

The last time that you complained about the CC as I remember was when you had a moan about not being able to get on to a site because it was full. The electricity policy obviously isn't putting off too many people!

[crinklystarfish]

It seems to me a straightforward matter. Clubs will never please all of their membership all of the time. If the irritations are too great, don't join or renew. If the benefits outweigh the irritations, then cough up and worry instead about the things in life that really matter. We have the ultimate consumer sanction.  

[Bazza454]

Apologies Mel, but I do think that you're missing the point.

The CC is run as a professional commercial business, and it has to be this way otherwise the whole thing would collapse very quickly.

They are offering for sale to you a package, at a reduced price if you are a member, this package will include some or all of the following -

Pitch

Location

Electricity

TV booster

Showers and toilet facilities

Guaranteed minimum standard

It's entirely up to you to decide if the package is competitively priced and whether you purchase or not. 

[chas]

Why cant we have metered EHU like some continental sites I have been on, Its so fair particulary for motorhomes that may go out for the day and then return, just using what they need rather than put everything on to get your moneys worth attitude. I suppose the first objection would be cost, why, the clubs make hundreds of thousands of pounds profit, once installed, thats it. Is it because electric would be priced by the club/site and would fall foul of regulations, that does not seem to cause concern by our E.U cousins. Look at the "green" issue, everyone is going on about saving energy, what better way to do it. IMO its just too simple for this country to adopt, we have to find reasons for things not to be allowed.

 

[Guest caraprof]

chas - 2007-07-24 7:03 AM Why cant we have metered EHU like some continental sites I have been on, Its so fair particulary for motorhomes that may go out for the day and then return, just using what they need rather than put everything on to get your moneys worth attitude. I suppose the first objection would be cost, why, the clubs make hundreds of thousands of pounds profit, once installed, thats it. Is it because electric would be priced by the club/site and would fall foul of regulations, that does not seem to cause concern by our E.U cousins. Look at the "green" issue, everyone is going on about saving energy, what better way to do it. IMO its just too simple for this country to adopt, we have to find reasons for things not to be allowed.

Yes, and they could also meter the water and charge per flush in the lavatories. It's swings and roundabouts. In the colder months we'll use lots of electricity and in Summer less. It's about simplicity. I was on a metered site in Austria recently and we couldn't leave early because the staff had to come and unlock the box and read the meter. And of course we couldn't pay until that had been done so we were stuck for over an hour when we wanted to be off early.

[Dave Newell]

you're absolutely correct Frank, hidden is completely the wrong word to use ;-) . My objection regarding the INCLUSION of the EHU fee into the pitch fee stems from this: before they included it in the pitch fee you knew you would pay £2 per night for EHU (just a figure for illustration purposes, not necessarily accurate) and had the choice to use it and pay or not. The electric charge was included into the pitch fee because the powers that be dictated that it was not legal to resell electricity for more than the electricity supply company charge. Clearly the £2 fixed fee per night didn't comply with this legislation.

 

The solution, according to the CC, and a few others, was to include it into the pitch fee, which in essence was OK except for one thing. The pitch fees went up by not only the usual annual increase amount but also by the £2 that had previously been charged for electricity.

 

In other words the CC and others are still charging more for the electricity they resell than they pay and are clearly breaking the law. I would struggle to use £2 worth of electricity in 24 hours. As an example of this I have just had my electricity bill for my workshop and it works out at an average of 45 pence per day over the last sixteen weeks!

 

At least when the electricity charge was separate you had the choice of whether to pay an extortionate amount for a little bit of leccy or not.

 

D.

[chas]

The metering system I was proposing and have used was a coin or token operated EHU bollard, hence the saying of pay as you go, or use, in this case, many sites operate a coin or token system for showers, so why not electric supply. The suggestion of paying to flush the loo is just silly.

[John H]

If we did pay for the electricity that we use, the CC would make less revenue and would have to increase either pitch price or price per person. Either way, you would end up paying the same. They need to make money to obtain new sites and to keep their existing ones up to their very high standard.

 

At the end of the day, it's up to you decide if you think it's worth it or not. I personally do but as I said, it's up to the individual.

 

John.

[Guest caraprof]

chas - 2007-07-24 12:33 PM The metering system I was proposing and have used was a coin or token operated EHU bollard, hence the saying of pay as you go, or use, in this case, many sites operate a coin or token system for showers, so why not electric supply. The suggestion of paying to flush the loo is just silly.

Can you imagine the cost and complexity of fitting a separate coin slot meter for every hook-up point? Yes, a small number of sites charge for showers where you use a token or coin, but the number of showers pro-rata to the number of pitches is quite small. Then there's the labour and security aspect of the wardens having to empty the huge number of meters and then having lots of cash to worry about.

OK, they could have special tokens made at even greater expense but then you know what will happen, your token will run out and the office will be closed. Or of course you could buy more tokens than you'll think you need just in case. Then when you leave, as long as the office is open of course, you could cash in your unused tokens!

The mind boggles! Have you stopped to think of the complexity of what you are proposing?

Yes, charging for flushing the loo is silly and I mentioned that to illustrate the silliness of the whole debate.

Separate charges for elecricity, each pitch with its own meter or coin slot, every shower operated by a token or coin!

I'm absolutely amazed at the attitude of a few members to what is a sensible, simple and obvious policy, which is what happens now. Include electricity and other essential utilities in the cost and keep it simple. Ultimately it will work out cheaper than the cost of installing all of these hundreds of meters and extra wardens to read them and prepare bills with itemised accounts!

[Guest caraprof]

Dave Newell - 2007-07-24 12:25 PM you're absolutely correct Frank, hidden is completely the wrong word to use ;-) . My objection regarding the INCLUSION of the EHU fee into the pitch fee stems from this: before they included it in the pitch fee you knew you would pay £2 per night for EHU (just a figure for illustration purposes, not necessarily accurate) and had the choice to use it and pay or not. The electric charge was included into the pitch fee because the powers that be dictated that it was not legal to resell electricity for more than the electricity supply company charge. Clearly the £2 fixed fee per night didn't comply with this legislation. The solution, according to the CC, and a few others, was to include it into the pitch fee, which in essence was OK except for one thing. The pitch fees went up by not only the usual annual increase amount but also by the £2 that had previously been charged for electricity. In other words the CC and others are still charging more for the electricity they resell than they pay and are clearly breaking the law. I would struggle to use £2 worth of electricity in 24 hours. As an example of this I have just had my electricity bill for my workshop and it works out at an average of 45 pence per day over the last sixteen weeks! At least when the electricity charge was separate you had the choice of whether to pay an extortionate amount for a little bit of leccy or not. D.

That as you probably realise Dave was my only objection, implying that the CC had 'hidden' its charges, which suggests subtefuge.

If people object to the CC's policy that's their right and good luck to them. You don't have to be a member if you don't like it.

This policy was arrived at democratically, by a committee of members and ratified at the relevant AGM. The club's experts presumably think that it's ultimately simpler and probably cheaper in the long term to do an inclusive package and so they have done.

It suits me and it obviously suits the great majority but I accept that it won't suit everyone. No policy will!

What bugs me though is one or two people banging on and on about it (not you by the way). My plea would be; it's done, most people like it so move on. If you don't like it yourself then move away to another club, or none.

[crinklystarfish]

Dave Newell - 2007-07-24 12:25 PM  

...In other words the CC and others are still charging more for the electricity they resell than they pay and are clearly breaking the law....At least when the electricity charge was separate you had the choice of whether to pay an extortionate amount for a little bit of leccy or not. D.

The way they get round it is by not charging for electricity per se, but by charging for the facility to hook up if you so desire. In the same way that the facility to use their 'thunder box' (ta John Keats!), etc. is included, again if you so desire.

By happy coincidence this puts them at a financial advantage, but I'm not personally convinced it makes much sense to separate out all the costs. Taking it to an absurd level, which often helps, would we really start to argue for a gradation in fees if one pitch had a slightly better view, or a bit of a bare patch, or was slightly less level?

It seems to make sense to me to have a standard charge, but what do I know? I've only ever spent 3 days on CC sites and didn't like it. Too many people...

[Mel B]

Frank/Bazza:

 

I am not missing the point, when I read the posting initially I understood the 'wording' differently to you that's all, you read it as you wanted to and I read it as I wanted to.

 

 

Frank:

 

My argument was not 'desperate' thank you, just because you don't agree with it doesn't make my reasoning wrong, just different to you. Accusing anyone of 'sophistry' (big word meaning: the use of false arguments, especially to deceive) is downright rude.

 

When I was a member of the CC it also has some sites that allow tents and as far as I am aware still has, so this is not limited to the C&CC, I’m afraid therefore your statement that the CC only allow caravans and motorhomes could be misleading but I would never accuse you of ‘sophistry’.

 

As for stating that the inclusion of electricity in the CC charges has been widely accepted … what choice do the members have? In my view the CC will do what it wants, it proclaims to be a ‘club’ and run for it’s members’ benefit but this step is, as you yourself suggest, beneficial to the administration itself and the wardens. It is not beneficial to the members if they end up paying for something they don’t want and didn’t have to originally.

 

I did ‘complain’ and not 'moan' as you put it, the first, in my eyes, is a about a genuine concern or problem, the second a whinge which may or may not be accurate, quite different. It was after not being able to get a pitch on 3 separate sites for 3 different times of year that I finally decided not to renew my membership, although up until then I'd only stayed with them because I could use the 'free night' vouchers I was earning from the credit card and also to be able to use the CLs, but it didn't mean that I was happy about the electricity charges being included in the pitch fee, far from it and when they were first introduced I wrote to the CC about it, they really didn’t want to know.

 

Your last paragraph in the posting above where you state:

 

"What bugs me though is one or two people banging on and on about it..."

 

really makes me giggle - of all the people on here you are one of the ones who does this the most about many items. You only on have to read the 'waving' thread to see this. Not saying that you shouldn't, it's up to you, if I choose, or not, to read your comments, that's up to me.

 

If you don't like people who 'bang on' about things to me it seems a bit ironic to say this if you then do it yourself - we are all guilty of this to a greater or lesser degree. Only when it gets a bit too heavy or personal do I tend to object. However, it would be nice if you could argue your point without, in my view, trying to belittle or making sniping remarks to me.

:-|

 

 

 

 

[chas]

Caraprof- I think if you read again my idea that exists in some E.U countries of paid for EHU you will see that NO armies of wardens need to come round to read meters, No waiting to pay if you need to be away early on the morning of departure, provided you paid your dues the evening before, and if the gates had been opened by then in any case. I stated from the start that a certain outlay of funds would be required, but that would only apply to the already existing electric bollards. So lets just state again if it is not clear, say 4 pitches with a central bollard in, each with its own numbered connection and coin or token slot, tokens bought at the time of booking in, if any are left over cashed in on final bill payment on leaving. The bollards would be emptied perhaps every week by one operative. Its so simple an idea thats why its used by some of our E.U cousins, its bound to fail over here through lack of vision by sites who put profit before customer service.

[Guest caraprof]

For Mel B.

I'm sorry, but we'll disagree. Your continuing argument that the CC 'hides' its electricity charges and your reasoning in why you think that that description is correct is sophistry.

As Dave Newell has accepted, the CC 'includes' electricity charges in its site fees.

To accuse the CC of 'hiding' electricity costs in its fees is as ludicrous as saying that it 'hides' the cost of lavatories or showers. It's also insulting to the CC and its members and officials as it implies that they are being deceitful by trying to disguise something.

I have no doubt that if you wrote to the CC it will tell you what it charges for electricity. It must have a formula for calculating its fees and the cost of power will be fairly constant. But what does it matter? You are quoted a fee for a pitch, which you can discover before you even book. How does it benefit any of us to know that in a £10 booking, £1.00 is for sanitary facilities, £2.50 is for electricity, £4.00 or more for the land usage depending on its location? And who cares! All I want to know is the price!