Starter Battery

[Lenard]

Hi,

My starter battery is now 5 years old and still performing. But it is only 75 amp, I would like to change it for at least a 95 amp one. (Normal wet Acid). What is considered the best make at present. The one fitted is an Exide, badged Fiat. The M/H is a 2019 Fiat 2.3, The battery box is the normal underfloor with a removable bar in the bottom to stop the smaller existing one sliding about. Will the charging Electrics cope with the bigger battery.

Cheers  Lenard 

[Derek Uzzell]

Historically, the starter-battery factory-fitted to Ducato X290 vehicles (built mid-2014 onwards) has been a FIAMM-branded 95AH product with dimensions of 

Length 353 mm 

Width 175 mm

Height inc. terms 190 mm

so I'm a mite surprised that your 2019 Ducato has 'only' a 75Ah Exide battery and it would be worth knowing what that battery's dimensions are.

Assuming that it will fit in your Ducato's battery box, this is the battery I chose when replacing my 2015 Ducato's original FIAMM battery.

https://www.varta-automotive.com/en-gb/products/varta-silver-dynamic/600-402-083

(There should be no problems whatsoever 'uprating' the 75Ah battery to a 95AH one.)

[John52]

4 hours ago, Derek Uzzell said:

so I'm a mite surprised that your 2019 Ducato has 'only' a 75AH Exide battery 

I'm astonished as every one I have seen has come with at least 95ah

I suspect someone has had it away with the original and put that one in 

[Alanb]

If maintained in charged state, modern starter batteries should last longer that five years.

A typical starter battery for a Ducato would have a capacity of approximately 100Ah (Capacity is measured in Ampere hours (Ah) not just Amperes (A), which is a measure of current.)

The dimensions supplied by Derek relate to what is known as a Group 019 battery, which will have approximately the above capacity and similar dimensions.

The primary task of a starter battery is to crank the engine, while supplying essential equipment.  Perhaps the best measure of a battery's ability to perform this task is the Cold Cranking Amperes (CCA) which is defined by the American Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE).  Simply put the higher the CCA rating, the better the battery will be at starting the engine.  I do remember reading some years ago that Derek had fitted a Varta H3 chosen for its CCA rating.  That has stuck in my memory, as I had made the same choice when my 2.8jtd starter battery was over 10 year old.

I have recently replaced the non original battery on our 2011 1.9TTid Saab. After much consideration I purchased an Advanced Battery Services (ABS) own badged battery.  The specification and price were competitive, and as they quote including delivery, price comparison is simplified. At least that battery performs better than the ageing Yuasa that it replaced, but to be fair it does have a higher CCA rating. I had previously used ABS for lawn tractor batteries, which have performed and lasted OK.

More recently when reviewing possible candidates for eventual replacement of the Ducato 019 starter battery I short listed  another ABS  "Advanced XD" battery and an Exide E1000 017TE from Tayna Batteries. The Exide battery is currently cheaper. The specifications are similar.

Unless you expect to deeply discharge your starter battery, which will probably shorten its life, do not worry too much about the alternator loading.  Starting currents are large but of short duration, and hence the energy used is soon replaced.  Habitation batteries are a different story.

Alan

[John52]

Ducato battery is outside the heat of the engine compartment which helps extend its life.

I used to fit Lion (thats a brand name of Euro car parts flooded lead acid batteries) which are good. But the late Allan Evans was a bit obsessive about batteries, to the point of cutting them open to look inside. And he preferred Varta/Bosch so I switched to them (Varta/Bosch are cheaper from Tayna than Euro Car Parts)

Although a 019, or even a 75ah, will start the engine I prefer an 020 battery to allow for the current drain whilst the van is standing. Not being drained so much gives you more of a margin, and extends the battery life.

But there is no right or wrong answer.

Bigger battery is better but you have to draw a line somewhere.

[Derek Uzzell]

Historically,  Ducato X250/X290 vehicles have been fitted with an '020' starter-battery (Length 393 mm, Width 175 mm, Height inc. terms 190 mm) when the vehicle had the 3.0litre motor or a '019' starter-battery (Length 353 mm, Width 175 mm, Height inc. terms 190 mm) when the vehicle had a smaller capacity motor. The OE (Original Equipment) batteries were FIAMM-branded and marked "SEVEL".

Assuming that the width and height are (respectively) 175mm and 190mm, I'd expect a 75Ah battery to be a '096' type with a length around 278mm (examples here) 

https://www.tayna.co.uk/car-batteries/types/096/

This would be a LOT smaller than a '019' battery and I find it hard to believe such a battery would have been OE in a 2019 Ducato despite Lenard saying that his Ducato's Exide battery is marked "Fiat". 

[John52]

3 hours ago, Derek Uzzell said:

(Ducato) OE (Original Equipment) batteries were FIAMM-branded and marked "SEVEL".

Since the introduction of Smart Alternators they all have an 020 Start/Stop battery VARTA-branded and marked 'SEVEL'

Its a flooded lead acid battery I can't find on the Varta website so perhaps is exclusive to SEVEL?

Whatever, it would have been worth more than Lenard's 75ah battery, which leads me to suspect someone has liberated it.

I have not been impressed with it though.  The resting voltage was lower than the 4 x 019 Varta Silver Dynamic  secondary batteries I connected it in parallel with.  So I have replaced it with an 020 Varta Silver Dynamic 

https://www.tayna.co.uk/car-batteries/varta/i1/

That is performing better (resting voltage about the same) than the original battery 

Edited October 5, 2023 by John52

[Derek Uzzell]

"Lenard" used to participate on this forum using "Earthmover" as his user-name.

My understanding is that he bought his (Elddis) motorhome new in 2019 and - in this May 2021 forum thread - he mentioned that the vehicle's starter-battery was a VARTA 80Ah 700A (En) battery with dimensions of 290mm long X180mm wide X 180mm high.

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/topic/52071-can-i-fit-a-bigger-battery/

(The 2021 forum thread is quite long and - on re-reading it - it's plain that I was losing the will to live by the end of it.)

[Lenard]

Hi Thankyou to everyone who replied to my question,

     Some members may remember me logging in as Earthmover.  When I brought the M/home I raised the point on this forum of what the make of the battery might be?, as no stickers were visible, it was only later on when I had occasion to take it out that I found the Fiat and Exide labels, it is  only 75amp.

     The van is a Elddis CV 40 with a strange electrical set up!. More to follow

Cheers  lenard. 

[Lenard]

Thankyou  Derek,

                               You are quite right I did state that it was a Varta, But discovered some months later it was in fact an Exide when I removed the battery completely. The Sevel label was under plate with all the connection on held in place  by the two S/T screws the Exide label is on the side of the battery, low down not visible when in the battery box. Moving on.

              The Leisure battery is a sealed Yuasa AGM which is serviced by a 100watt solar panel/engine/ hook up/ there is a Truma twin regulator, set at present to AGM and only feeds the leisure battery. The engine battery is only charged by the Engine and is a sealed lead acid.

              Can I safely run a Fused positive wire from the Leisure Battery to the Engine battery to keep it charged up when parked up? (Remove the fuse before starting the engine). Is there a Regulator that is capable of dealing with two different types of battery? 

Cheers   Lenard/Em

[Alanb]

I think that you should consider something more than a fused length of wire.  One possibility would be to include a diode and current limiting resistor (possibly a low wattage 12V bulb).  However the Battery Master marketed by Vanbitz is often used to maintain the starter battery. If DIY is not your thing, then worth investigating. Victron Energy make a similar device, but probably more expensive.

I have never seen a Battery Master, but it is descibed as easy to install, with a fused connection to each battey, and one to earth (chassis).

Alan

[Robinhood]

2 hours ago, Lenard said:

Is there a Regulator that is capable of dealing with two different types of battery? 

...there are such Solar regulators (normally those that simply trickle-charge the vehicle battery).

It would be interesting to know which model of Truma (dual?) regulator you have. From what I can see the current range have just such a capability with a reduced trickle-charge to the starter battery. The earlier range appears to be somewhat different, with a preference to the leisure battery but switching to the vehicle battery once that is full. Whilst this older range seems to have AGM/Gel/Flooded settings, surprisingly (at least on the info I can find) the AGM and Flooded regimes appear to be the same, and if this is so, it wouldn't debar using it for both batteries.

[Labby]

As Alanb has suggested if you fitted a Vanbitz battery master it would enable your starter battery to be kept charged up both when on EHU (via the mains charger charging the leisure battery) and through the solar power charging of the leisure battery. It is easy to fit , not very expensive , would not need disconnection when starting and  works well.

The Vanbitz website explains its battery master operation  and it can be fitted direct to your batteries without needing to involve your 12v electrical system or its PSU /fusebox

[Lenard]

Thankyou AlanB, Robinhood and Labby,

I was just following the method shown in the MMM magazine by there electrical Guru, Mr Mott.

there are lots of options with battery types and charging regimes, but remember the leisure bat is a AGM and the engine a bog standard 12v lead acid (Sealed) and if I connected it to the regulator as the second battery and set the charge regime at 12volt the leisure battery would never receive a full charge and if I set it to AGM?  Why didn't Elddis do it at the build stage?

Yes Labby I have had a battery master fitted on other motorhomes by vanbitz but I was hoping to utilise what is already fitted to the M/home. 

Regards   Lenard (Em)

[Robinhood]

...but, as I answered above, depending on which Truma regulator you have, this might be eminently possible.

The second battery output on an SDC12/SDC25 regulator is designed to provide a trickle-charge only to a starter battery (maximum of 1 amp). With the battery setting at AGM (for the leisure battery(ies) this will cause no issues for a flooded vehicle battery, and will play its part in keeping the vehicle battery in condition.

(I have a Votronic of similar design and vehicle battery trickle-charge capability, and have used it with AGM leisure batteries with no issues for 5 years - now on Lithium).

From the SDC12/SDC25 instructions:

The earlier SDC10/SDC20 (which you may have) models are slightly more moot, in that the second output is a "full-fat" voltage, which is initially dormant but that the regulator switches to once the battery(ies) being charged on the first output are full. What is surprising from the documentation however (at least the version I've got) is that though they have both an AGM and a Flooded setting (and Gel), the charging regime on these two settings is identical (and probably more aligned with the characteristics of a flooded battery). I might want to raise a query with Truma as to whether that is true, but if so I'd run it on the AGM setting and connect the vehicle battery to the secondary output.  

From the SDC10/SDC20 instructions: 

[Lenard]

Hi Robinhood,

So sorry for the delay in replying to your question, The solar regulator is a Truma -  Solar dual battery charger SDC/10, it seems to do all you have highlighted above.

I have ordered a battery master which I know will work ok. I have also ordered a larger 95 amp sealed battery. The long dark knights are upon us now!. 

Many thanks, Lenard (Em)