should I be worried?

[teccer]

booked in today for 2 new tyres on my hymer 694 tag axel van, (middle wheels)I wanted the same as I got on the other 4 wheels, michelin aguilas ,215-75r16cp (£210 each) all ok until this morning talking to another dealer who quoted me £30 less per tyre so I rang the company up to say I'd had a better offer for the same tyres, he said ok I'll match their price, while the tyres were  being fitted he came back to me and said he couldn't get the cp tyres but were fitting aguilas 3 van tyres ,215-75r16c, instead of cp, they are just as good as the ones you ordered,   

now home I find that the tyres are a lot cheaper than the ones I ordered, and I feel that he has conned me into buying tyres not suitable for my van see this from Michelin web page, so what do you think, is it safe to have these on my van or what?

[Keithl]

My view, they are NOT what you ordered or agreed to have fitted so return and ask for their unauthorised change to be corrected.

Keith.

[mtravel]

Strange. If you mean AGILIS tyres, to my knowledge Michelin discontinued them a couple of years ago.

[Keithl]

34 minutes ago, mtravel said:

Strange. If you mean AGILIS tyres, to my knowledge Michelin discontinued them a couple of years ago.

So what are the date codes on your four original tyres and also on the two new none CP tyres @teccer ?

[Derek Uzzell]

It MIGHT still be possible to obtain Michelin Agilis Camping 215/75 R16CP  tyres, but they will almost certainly be old stock and been made some years ago.

Nowadays, the equivalent-size Michelin CP-marked tyre is the CrossClimate Camping, but - as will be evident from this advert - this has a directional thread pattern.

https://www.mytyres.co.uk/rshop/tyre/Michelin/CrossClimate-Camping/215-75-R16CP-113-111R-8PR/R-460471

[teccer]

2 hours ago, Keithl said:

So what are the date codes on your four original tyres and also on the two new none CP tyres @teccer ?

2 old ones 23/15, other 2 are 30/20, the new ones are 49/23 so about 7 months old.

[teccer]

2 hours ago, Derek Uzzell said:

It MIGHT still be possible to obtain Michelin Agilis Camping 215/75 R16CP  tyres, but they will almost certainly be old stock and been made some years ago.

Nowadays, the equivalent-size Michelin CP-marked tyre is the CrossClimate Camping, but - as will be evident from this advert - this has a directional thread pattern.

https://www.mytyres.co.uk/rshop/tyre/Michelin/CrossClimate-Camping/215-75-R16CP-113-111R-8PR/R-460471

so do you think these will be OK .

[Derek Uzzell]

The CrossClimate Camping tyre is (to the best of my knowledge) the only CP-marked product now produced by Michelin and, in 215/75 R16 size, has a Load Index/Speed Rating of 113/111R, while the two Agilis Camping 215/75 R16CP tyres that you were replacing on your Hymer (and its other 4 tyres) should have a Load Index/Speed Rating of 113Q.

A CrossClimate Camping 215/75 R16CP tyre near enough matches your Agilis Camping 215/75 R16CP tyres regarding Load Index/Speed Rating. However (as I highlighted above) CrossClimate Camping tyres have a DIRECTIONAL tread pattern that is designed to rotate in a forwards direction. This means that a 'directional' tyre fitted to a wheel on a vehicle's left-hand side must stay on that side as, if the wheel were moved to the vehicle's right-hand side, the tyre's tread would be rotating in the wrong direction. (See this link)

https://www.kwik-fit.com/blog/tyre-tread-whats-the-difference-between-asymmetric-and-directional-tyres

Personally, I'm not a fan of using tyres with a directional tread pattern on motorhomes or vans unless there are persuasive reasons to do so (eg. the vehicle is to be driven regularly in weather conditions where the directional tread pattern provides clear benefits.)

I can't comment on pricing, but, if the two replacement tyres that have been fitted are Michelin Agilis 3, I believe those tyres should be fine.

According to the relevant Michelin webpage

https://business.michelin.co.uk/tyres/michelin-agilis-3#specifications

a Michelin Agilis 3 215/75 R16C tyre has a Load Index/Speed Rating of 116R and thus should easily be capable of coping with your Hymer's demands (particularly as they are on a non-driven axle). While accepting that Agilis 3 is not CP or M+S or 3PMSF-marked (which CrossClimate Camping is), the big plus in your case (as far as I'm concerned) is that Agilis 3 does NOT have a directional tread pattern.

(With hindsight, you might have been better opting for Continental VancoCamper 215/75 R16CP 116/114R tyres as at least you'd then have got the CP-marking.)

[John52]

Should say on the tyres what load they will carry but I am sure they will be ok for your van.

There has been much speculation as to why manufacturers market tyres as so-called camping tyres

Is it just a way to charge more?

Like medicine manufacturers have marketed so-called childrens medicine at higher price.  You can see from the PL (product licence) number on the bottle its the same stuff as adult medicine.  But they know mums will pay more for their kids medicine than they would for their own.  Rather like motorhome owners might pay more for tyres than van owners. 

Edited Thursday at 07:45 by John52

[teccer]

thanks for all that info Derek, I was going to go back today to try to sort something out but after reading your comments and the tyres are fitted in the middle  (tag axel) I think I'll leave it but make sure not to go back to bathwick tyres again.

re price, crossclimate camping quote was £210, the Agilis3 cost £137.

John 52👌

[Derek Uzzell]

6 minutes ago, John52 said:

...There has been much speculation as to why manufacturers market tyres as so-called camping tyres...

At the end of the 1990s Michelin became the first tyre company to market products that targeted the motorhome market. The tyre was the "XC Camping" pattern that had a good reputation for longevity, but a bad reputation for wet-road grip.

It became the norm for Fiat Ducato -based motorhomes to be sold as standard with a 'camping-car pack' that might include suspension/springing changes, but always included 'camping-car' tyres. Continental European buyers began to expect all new motorhomes to be fitted with 'camping-car' tyres and, unsurprisingly, Continental and Pirelli then jumped on the band-wagon.

To differentiate between common-or-garden C-marked tyres (eg. 215/75 R16C) aimed at commercial vans and motorhomes, the CP-marking was born (eg. 215/75 R16CP). But the CP-marking has no 'technical' value or defined testing procedures - it just indicates that the tyre manufacturer recommends the tyre for motorhome usage.

Michelin's advice can be read here

https://www.michelin.co.uk/auto/advice/van/motorhome-tyres

As will be seen, the ETRTO advises that motorhomes fitted with CP-marked tyres should have a 5.5bar/ 80psi inflation pressure for the tyres on the vehicle's rear axle(s) and high-pressure tyre-valves to match.

Presumably recent new Ducato-based motorhomes with CP-marked tyres and a TPMS system will have had that system factory-set to a 5.5bar/80psi rear-tyre pressure, but I don't recall owners of such motorhomes complaining about the resultant board-hard ride quality that this pressure usually produces.

Are Michelin CrossClimate CP-marked directional tread-pattern tyres being factory-fitted to new Ducato-based motorhomes? Or are only Continental  (or Pirelli) CP-marked non-directional tread-pattern tyres now being factory-fitted?

(Oh Yes - I should have mentioned that, in the (unlikely?) event that teccer has been using the recommended 5.5bar/80psi pressures for the CP-marked marked tyres fitted to his Hymer's rear axles in the past, he will need to reduce that pressure for the Agilis 3 tyres. It should say on the Agilis 3 tyre's sidewall what the recommended maximum inflation pressure is, but it's probably around 4.5bar/65psi.)

[teccer]

3 hours ago, Derek Uzzell said:

(Oh Yes - I should have mentioned that, in the (unlikely?) event that teccer has been using the recommended 5.5bar/80psi pressures for the CP-marked marked tyres fitted to his Hymer's rear axles in the past, he will need to reduce that pressure for the Agilis 3 tyres. It should say on the Agilis 3 tyre's sidewall what the recommended maximum inflation pressure is, but it's probably around 4.5bar/65psi.)

strange you should mention that, I've had this van for the last 12 years and always had tyre pressure at 4.5 all round, any higher then it's like driving on iron wheels.

thanks for your help and advise

[flyboyprowler]

20 hours ago, teccer said:

booked in today for 2 new tyres on my hymer 694 tag axel van, (middle wheels)I wanted the same as I got on the other 4 wheels, michelin aguilas ,215-75r16cp (£210 each) all ok until this morning talking to another dealer who quoted me £30 less per tyre so I rang the company up to say I'd had a better offer for the same tyres, he said ok I'll match their price, while the tyres were  being fitted he came back to me and said he couldn't get the cp tyres but were fitting aguilas 3 van tyres ,215-75r16c, instead of cp, they are just as good as the ones you ordered,   

now home I find that the tyres are a lot cheaper than the ones I ordered, and I feel that he has conned me into buying tyres not suitable for my van see this from Michelin web page, so what do you think, is it safe to have these on my van or what?

Quite difficult this one! I would have thought that when being offered the "van" tyres, which you didn't want, then in allowing them to be fitted, and presumably paying for them, that the garage would say that you have accepted them. You could try and get them to pay the difference that you could have bought them for on line, but you haven't achieved your objective of having all the same tyres on the van.

[teccer]

55 minutes ago, flyboyprowler said:

Quite difficult this one! I would have thought that when being offered the "van" tyres, which you didn't want, then in allowing them to be fitted, and presumably paying for them, that the garage would say that you have accepted them. You could try and get them to pay the difference that you could have bought them for on line, but you haven't achieved your objective of having all the same tyres on the van.

the tyres were already being fitted when he came in and told me about the c rating then went on about how they were just as good as the ones I wanted and just went on and on about stuff I didn't understand, when he went out the rest of the customers in the room said,"what was he on about" they didn't understand either.

but as Derek said as long as they are not on driving wheels and a tag axel it shouldn't be a problem.

even with my cp tyres because the van is parked up for months at a time at least once a month I move it just to have the tyre in a different position on the ground to stop getting square tyres.

[Derek Uzzell]

One other point...

When the two Michelin Agilis 3 tyres were fitted, what (if anything) did the fitter do regarding the tyre valves?

It's near certain that, when the Hymer was brand-new, the tyre valves were metal clamp-in type. And it's quite common for motorhomes with that type of tyre valve for the valve to NOT be changed when the tyre is replaced, with just a new valve-core being fitted instead. (This is reasonable practice, though it does assume that the main body of a clamp-in valve and its seals will last forever!)

However, it's sometimes the case that tyre fitters will decide to remove metal clamp-in valves and replace them with ordinary 'car' rubber snap-in valves - which ain't so good when the tyres are to be inflated to the high pressures commonly used on motorhomes. (There are snap-in valves designed to cope with high inflation pressures, but it would be very unusual for a fitter to replace a metal clamp-in valve with this type of 'high pressure' snap-in valve.)

[teccer]

just checked the 2 new tyres have still got the metal clamp-in valves, another thing 1 tyre is 7 months old the other is 3 months old but I see no problem with that.

thanks for the info.👍

[flyboyprowler]

15 hours ago, teccer said:

the tyres were already being fitted when he came in and told me about the c rating then went on about how they were just as good as the ones I wanted and just went on and on about stuff I didn't understand, when he went out the rest of the customers in the room said,"what was he on about" they didn't understand either.

but as Derek said as long as they are not on driving wheels and a tag axel it shouldn't be a problem.

even with my cp tyres because the van is parked up for months at a time at least once a month I move it just to have the tyre in a different position on the ground to stop getting square tyres.

You do sound like you are still concerned about getting the "wrong" tyres. If that is so, then it may be worth asking if they would be kind enough to change the two tyres for the ones you originally asked for out of good will. Here in Spain, the tread patterns have to be the same for all tyres on the same axle or you can fail the MOT if they are noted! 

[Derek Uzzell]

The snag is that Michelin has not marketed the Agilis Camping 215/75 R16CP tyre for some time and, while it may still be possible to source a few, these will be old stock with an unpredictable date-of-manufacture.

So even if the company that fitted Agilis 3 tyres to teccer's motorhome were able to locate a couple of Agilis Camping tyres and agreed to replace the Agilis 3 tyres with them, the 'camping' tyres would be of uncertain age with no guarantee how carefully they had been stored. The only advantage I can see of insisting on having the Agilis Camping tyres is their CP-marking, which hardly matters given the inflation pressures teccer uses.

The UK does not require tyres on the same axle to be identical (though, as has been discussed here in the past, this is an EU requirement) but, in any case, having Agilis Camping tyres on both ends of one of teccer's motorhome's rear axles and Agiis 3 on both ends of the other rear axle would seemingly meet Spain's test requirements.

[teccer]

thank you Derek, I bow to your knowledge on this matter

having Agilis Camping tyres on both ends of one of teccer's motorhome's rear axles and Agiis 3 on both ends of the other rear axle

that's what I've got.

having an MOT on Monday and I'll not mention tyres and see if they say anything.

[Derek Uzzell]

The UK's MOT test is fairly laid-back about the relationship between tyres and axles. The MOT inspection manual can be found here

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-private-passenger-and-light-commercial-vehicles

and these two extracts relate to tyres::

An axle carrying different-size tyres would result in an MOT-test failure. but if the 6 radial tyres on your motorhome's 3 axles were all (say) 215/75 R16 size, but each of the tyres had a different manufacturer, that should be acceptable MOT-wise. Although asymmetric tyres fitted the wrong way round should not result in test-failure, I'm not sure how a directional tyre would be viewed by a tester if its rotational direction were incorrect. 

In principle, your Hymer could have a jumbled mixture of 215/75 R16 Agilis Camping, Agilis 3 and CrossClimate Camping tyres and (as long as the rotational direction of the CrossClimate Camping tyres was correct) where they were on the motorhome's axles should be academic as far as the UK MOT-test rules are concerned.

(i remember, years ago when very cheap Chinese-made tyres began to be available in the UK, one of the car magazines fitted 4 same-specification but different-Chinese-manufacturer tyres to a BMW car and took it to a wet skid-pan. They found that, by swapping the wheels around, the car could be made to understeer or oversteer savagely, left or right,  purely dependent on where on the car the wheels had been fitted.)

[colin]

As for Michelin's statement on tyres, I had a discussion with their technical department about tyres for my van, the initial advise they gave me was outright dangerous.

[teccer]

2 hours ago, Derek Uzzell said:

 

In principle, your Hymer could have a jumbled mixture of 215/75 R16 Agilis Camping, Agilis 3 and CrossClimate Camping tyres and (as long as the rotational direction of the CrossClimate Camping tyres was correct) where they were on the motorhome's axles should be academic as far as the UK MOT-test rules are concerned.

 

I'm glad your mentioned that because I had thought in the case of an Agilis 3 puncture could I put a Camping Agilis cp tyre on. 👍 yes.

[Keithl]

1 minute ago, teccer said:

I'm glad your mentioned that because I had thought in the case of an Agilis 3 puncture could I put a Camping Agilis cp tyre on. 👍 yes.

But just don't get a puncture in France as if you call a breakdown service out they will refuse to fit the 'odd' tyre!

[teccer]

44 minutes ago, Keithl said:

But just don't get a puncture in France as if you call a breakdown service out they will refuse to fit the 'odd' tyre!

at least I'm still capable to change tyres so if I get a puncture in France I'll change to my spare to get to a garage to get a repair or a new C tyre

[flyboyprowler]

44 minutes ago, teccer said:

at least I'm still capable to change tyres so if I get a puncture in France I'll change to my spare to get to a garage to get a repair or a new C tyre

And what tyre make and type is your spare? As Keith says, the same would happen in Spain if you called roadside rescue.