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When will we see the benefits?
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userpepe63
Posted: 6 July 2020 11:54 AM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 
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Whilst those who voted to leave would have done so for a number of reasons, please lets not pretend that the "main" reason that Mr/Mrs Average Brexiteer- in- the- street voted as he/she did , was anything to do with "trade deals", and who we were/weren't able to have them with....

No, it was clear from the subject matter in the main media, and the "talk" on social media (very much including this forum) that at the time it wasn't about the above, it was about all those funny "Johnnie Foreigner" types who were supposedly "..comin' ova 'ere..takin' our jobs..cloggin' up our NHS..and scroungin' our benefits.." etc etc.

Also for some, the fact that we (the UK) were having to sit around a table with the aforementioned Johnnie Foreigners' representatives, instead of at the head of it, was never ever going to sit well...



Edited by pepe63 2020-07-06 12:13 PM
userBarryd999
Posted: 6 July 2020 12:32 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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pepe63 - 2020-07-06 11:54 AM

Whilst those who voted to leave would have done so for a number of reasons, please lets not pretend that the "main" reason that Mr/Mrs Average Brexiteer- in- the- street voted as he/she did , was anything to do with "trade deals", and who we were/weren't able to have them with....

No, it was clear from the subject matter in the main media, and the "talk" on social media (very much including this forum) that at the time it wasn't about the above, it was about all those funny "Johnnie Foreigner" types who were supposedly "..comin' ova 'ere..takin' our jobs..cloggin' up our NHS..and scroungin' our benefits.." etc etc.

Also for some, the fact that we (the UK) were having to sit around a table with the aforementioned Johnnie Foreigners' representatives, instead of at the head of it, was never ever going to sit well...



Of course it was exactly that. They might not be too chuffed to hear then that while immigration from the EU is down massively none EU immigration has risen to the highest level since records began. I hope they all move in next door to Nigel Farage.

user747
Posted: 6 July 2020 12:34 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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Oh bulletguy, you are so funny.

This is from your earlier post:


We did ourselves no favours by constant cherry picking whatever we wanted behaving like little colonialists who still believed we ruled an Empire. Far from 'bullying' and 'browbeating', that 'self serving protectionist monolith' you describe is what's looking after the interests of it's member states.....one of which you've chosen to reside in! We cancelled our club membership so why should the 'club' bow to our wishes and interests? We once had a seat at the table until 37% of the electorate chose to give it up so now the time has come for them to deliver on their promises....and so far it's not going too well. They've got an awful lot of promises to meet.

So the EU is looking after its member States ..... absolutely hilarious. In the 2008/9 economic downturn they did nothing ... until it looked like the Euro would collapse, along with the EU. Southern European countries were bankrupted while Northern ones protected themselves. The Covid epidemic was past its peak when they reluctantly offered some financial aid. It is a club with first and second class members, we are in the second group.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 6 July 2020 1:18 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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pepe63 - 2020-07-06 11:54 AM

Whilst those who voted to leave would have done so for a number of reasons, please lets not pretend that the "main" reason that Mr/Mrs Average Brexiteer- in- the- street voted as he/she did , was anything to do with "trade deals", and who we were/weren't able to have them with....

No, it was clear from the subject matter in the main media, and the "talk" on social media (very much including this forum) that at the time it wasn't about the above, it was about all those funny "Johnnie Foreigner" types who were supposedly "..comin' ova 'ere..takin' our jobs..cloggin' up our NHS..and scroungin' our benefits.." etc etc.

Also for some, the fact that we (the UK) were having to sit around a table with the aforementioned Johnnie Foreigners' representatives, instead of at the head of it, was never ever going to sit well...

Plus, of course, those mythic figures we were "forced" to pay to the EU for the privilege.
userBulletguy
Posted: 6 July 2020 1:49 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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pepe63 - 2020-07-06 11:54 AM

Whilst those who voted to leave would have done so for a number of reasons, please lets not pretend that the "main" reason that Mr/Mrs Average Brexiteer- in- the- street voted as he/she did , was anything to do with "trade deals", and who we were/weren't able to have them with....

No, it was clear from the subject matter in the main media, and the "talk" on social media (very much including this forum) that at the time it wasn't about the above, it was about all those funny "Johnnie Foreigner" types who were supposedly "..comin' ova 'ere..takin' our jobs..cloggin' up our NHS..and scroungin' our benefits.." etc etc.

Also for some, the fact that we (the UK) were having to sit around a table with the aforementioned Johnnie Foreigners' representatives, instead of at the head of it, was never ever going to sit well...


Totally spot on Pepe and even Brexits chief architect Cummings would agree with you on that as he openly admitted in the blog he wrote post referendum, immigration, the NHS £350m slogan and FoM was the three key issues he used. And it worked. Brexiters were more fussed about 'funny foreigners' and the loss of fta's meant nothing as Johnson had told everyone "there is no plan for no deal because we're going to get a great deal"!

And who can forget the Barnsley Brexiteer? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFjfbL1KWNI

I remember reading a cracking post from an fm on another forum, the thread topic of which was "Foreign folk stealing OUR jobs".....and this particular fm posted, "well they've been doing an excellent job of 'stealing' my nephews job as the bone idle sod has never done a days work since leaving school 15 years ago and has no intention of getting a job".
userBarryd999
Posted: 6 July 2020 2:06 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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I must say its terrific to have a good old fashioned Brexit thread on here again. Its like the good old days!

It looks like there really was a magic money tree after all though looking at Johnsons money spaffing spree. Here are some startling figures of the cost of Brexit and this was before the economy collapsed further due to the Covid Pandemic.

https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-will-cost-uk-more-than-total-payments-to-eu-2020-1?IR=T

I gather we are all gonna get £500 vouchers next to spaff on anything we like! Whats everyone getting? Mine will either go on expensive French Cheese and Scotch or Expensive French cheese and Scotch.
userjumpstart
Posted: 6 July 2020 5:27 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 
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Brian Kirby - 2020-07-06 11:07 AM

jumpstart - 2020-07-06 7:12 AM...………….. Funding low wage countries to make their economy more efficient and competitive with other EU countries only increases their wages to even the standard,at our cost.

Are you arguing that the above logic will have different results if instead we trade with non-EU countries? That, I thought, was the whole point of both the EU and the WTO.

As those low wage countries become high wage countries, they will begin buying more from the rest of the world, so that everyone benefits.

That is the logical basis on which the EEC/EU was founded. So, if the same logic is to apply to the rest of the world, where it is to be considered good, why is it not good when applied to the EU, as you seem to be arguing?


No
Yes to a certain extent I agree,
No, Common market free trade agreement.
userjumpstart
Posted: 6 July 2020 5:30 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 
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pepe63 - 2020-07-06 11:54 AM

Whilst those who voted to leave would have done so for a number of reasons, please lets not pretend that the "main" reason that Mr/Mrs Average Brexiteer- in- the- street voted as he/she did , was anything to do with "trade deals", and who we were/weren't able to have them with....

No, it was clear from the subject matter in the main media, and the "talk" on social media (very much including this forum) that at the time it wasn't about the above, it was about all those funny "Johnnie Foreigner" types who were supposedly "..comin' ova 'ere..takin' our jobs..cloggin' up our NHS..and scroungin' our benefits.." etc etc.

Also for some, the fact that we (the UK) were having to sit around a table with the aforementioned Johnnie Foreigners' representatives, instead of at the head of it, was never ever going to sit well...



I know it’s fashionable to say that was all about “foreigners” but funnily enough trade and how the EU fails it’s citizens was what people voted on.
userBarryd999
Posted: 6 July 2020 5:46 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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jumpstart - 2020-07-06 5:30 PM

pepe63 - 2020-07-06 11:54 AM

Whilst those who voted to leave would have done so for a number of reasons, please lets not pretend that the "main" reason that Mr/Mrs Average Brexiteer- in- the- street voted as he/she did , was anything to do with "trade deals", and who we were/weren't able to have them with....

No, it was clear from the subject matter in the main media, and the "talk" on social media (very much including this forum) that at the time it wasn't about the above, it was about all those funny "Johnnie Foreigner" types who were supposedly "..comin' ova 'ere..takin' our jobs..cloggin' up our NHS..and scroungin' our benefits.." etc etc.

Also for some, the fact that we (the UK) were having to sit around a table with the aforementioned Johnnie Foreigners' representatives, instead of at the head of it, was never ever going to sit well...



I know it’s fashionable to say that was all about “foreigners” but funnily enough trade and how the EU fails it’s citizens was what people voted on.


That might have been your reasons but it certainly wasnt the reasons most people voted for Brexit.

We didnt exactly fail either during our membership of the EU. We went from the sick man of Europe when we joined to the 5th largest economy in the world and one of the big hitters within the EU. There was a load of horses**t about how we could build a raft of trade deals better than what we have now but it was exactly that, horses**t. We couldnt negotiate ourselves out of a wet paper bag. We have no trade negotiators for a start. Where are they now? The original Brexit team. Davis etc. All fired or left or cast aside because they were useless or had simply had enough.

I certainly do not feel like the EU has failed me as a citizen or the rest of Europe. Its not perfect thats for sure but nothing is. Our own government and parliamentary system is far from perfect but just think how great Europe is now. How its so easy to travel, work, live. How the place is generally civilised, prosperous, safe, clean and has great standards from food to drinking water to trade and goods, citizens rights, data protection, workers rights. The list goes on.

We are swapping all that to put it all in the hands of Boris Johnson. What could possibly go wrong?
userpepe63
Posted: 6 July 2020 5:50 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 
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jumpstart - 2020-07-06 5:30 PM

pepe63 - 2020-07-06 11:54 AM

Whilst those who voted to leave would have done so for a number of reasons, please lets not pretend that the "main" reason that Mr/Mrs Average Brexiteer- in- the- street voted as he/she did , was anything to do with "trade deals", and who we were/weren't able to have them with....

No, it was clear from the subject matter in the main media, and the "talk" on social media (very much including this forum) that at the time it wasn't about the above, it was about all those funny "Johnnie Foreigner" types who were supposedly "..comin' ova 'ere..takin' our jobs..cloggin' up our NHS..and scroungin' our benefits.." etc etc.

Also for some, the fact that we (the UK) were having to sit around a table with the aforementioned Johnnie Foreigners' representatives, instead of at the head of it, was never ever going to sit well...



I know it’s fashionable to say that was all about “foreigners” but funnily enough trade and how the EU fails it’s citizens was what people voted on.


What? all of them?.... yeah,yeah 'cause it was....

So...the UK voted out because the EU "...failed it's citizens..."? Behave yourself!
userspospe
Posted: 6 July 2020 5:53 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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I asked, when will we see the benefits?

I mean unambiguous benefits, ones that can only be ascribed to leaving the EU.

When?
userjumpstart
Posted: 6 July 2020 6:02 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 
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Barryd999 - 2020-07-06 2:06 PM

I must say its terrific to have a good old fashioned Brexit thread on here again. Its like the good old days!

It looks like there really was a magic money tree after all though looking at Johnsons money spaffing spree. Here are some startling figures of the cost of Brexit and this was before the economy collapsed further due to the Covid Pandemic.

https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-will-cost-uk-more-than-total-payments-to-eu-2020-1?IR=T

I gather we are all gonna get £500 vouchers next to spaff on anything we like! Whats everyone getting? Mine will either go on expensive French Cheese and Scotch or Expensive French cheese and Scotch.


Really,is going over all this again therapeutic for you.
userjumpstart
Posted: 6 July 2020 6:03 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 
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spospe - 2020-07-06 5:53 PM

I asked, when will we see the benefits?

I mean unambiguous benefits, ones that can only be ascribed to leaving the EU.

When?


Tomorrow.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 6 July 2020 6:24 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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spospe - 2020-07-06 5:53 PM
I asked, when will we see the benefits?
I mean unambiguous benefits, ones that can only be ascribed to leaving the EU.
When?

Which is an excellent question. I would say never, because the actual economic impacts from Brexit will be almost impossible to identify through the fog of the much greater economic impacts that will be attributed to Covid-19.

Who will arbitrate which impact should be attributed to which factor? As the government has championed Brexit, it is hardly likely to suddenly pop up and say that of all the economic knocks we have suffered, 10% or whatever, are the result of Brexit. Ditto the Brexiters.

Those who voted to remain, OTOH, will always harbour the suspicion that the costs of Brexit have been subsumed invisibly into the economic impacts from Covid-19. Logically, whatever economic impact Brexit may have had on the UK economy would have been far less than that of Covid-19.

The only issue that may stick is that the Covid-19 recovery is expected to be relatively quick, because its fundamental cause was not of economic origin, whereas even Rees-Mogg was conceding that he thought the impacts from Brexit would take several decades to work through.

If that lag proves as expected, it will become very difficult to sustain an argument that delays to cross Channel trade resulting from post Brexit changes to customs arrangements are the consequence of Covid-19. I fully expect all else to be conveniently lost to Covid-19.

I'd say this will divide the UK for the next generation, and for many longer than that. The only respite will come if Brexit turns out to be a resounding success, and Britain overtakes the per capita GDP of every other EU country. I don't expect to be alive to see that! :-(

Edited by Brian Kirby 2020-07-06 6:26 PM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 6 July 2020 6:32 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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jumpstart - 2020-07-06 5:27 PM
Brian Kirby - 2020-07-06 11:07 AM
jumpstart - 2020-07-06 7:12 AM...………….. Funding low wage countries to make their economy more efficient and competitive with other EU countries only increases their wages to even the standard,at our cost.

Are you arguing that the above logic will have different results if instead we trade with non-EU countries? That, I thought, was the whole point of both the EU and the WTO.
As those low wage countries become high wage countries, they will begin buying more from the rest of the world, so that everyone benefits.
That is the logical basis on which the EEC/EU was founded. So, if the same logic is to apply to the rest of the world, where it is to be considered good, why is it not good when applied to the EU, as you seem to be arguing?

No
Yes to a certain extent I agree,
No, Common market free trade agreement.

But what trade will benefit from that? We already trade tariff free with the other EU states, and the result remains, just as it as it was before we joined, that we import more goods from them than we sell to them. Who gains?
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 6 July 2020 6:56 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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747 - 2020-07-06 12:34 PM...……………………….So the EU is looking after its member States ..... absolutely hilarious. In the 2008/9 economic downturn they did nothing ... until it looked like the Euro would collapse, along with the EU. Southern European countries were bankrupted while Northern ones protected themselves. The Covid epidemic was past its peak when they reluctantly offered some financial aid. It is a club with first and second class members, we are in the second group.

I think this misrepresents what the EU can do/could have done. The EU has no funding stream for such interventions. It requires unanimity of all member states to change its budget.

Those countries in trouble in 2010 were suffering from their own economic mismanagement (plus in several cases - most notably Greece - their cheating in order to qualify for Euro membership) and the other member states were uninclined to underwrite their profligacy.

Economic measures were eventually agreed, but not as a direct result of the 2008 crash. That merely exposed those who'd been skinny dipping, to quote Warren Buffet's popular phrase of the time.

The EU had no role in their predicaments, that had brought that on themselves. The real reason for the bail-outs was to protect the Euro from the impact of a number of countries re-introducing their old currencies in order to devalue. The bail-outs were judged a less damaging option.
userBirdbrain
Posted: 6 July 2020 7:43 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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Brian Kirby - 2020-07-06 6:56 PM

747 - 2020-07-06 12:34 PM...……………………….So the EU is looking after its member States ..... absolutely hilarious. In the 2008/9 economic downturn they did nothing ... until it looked like the Euro would collapse, along with the EU. Southern European countries were bankrupted while Northern ones protected themselves. The Covid epidemic was past its peak when they reluctantly offered some financial aid. It is a club with first and second class members, we are in the second group.

I think this misrepresents what the EU can do/could have done. The EU has no funding stream for such interventions. It requires unanimity of all member states to change its budget.

Those countries in trouble in 2010 were suffering from their own economic mismanagement (plus in several cases - most notably Greece - their cheating in order to qualify for Euro membership) and the other member states were uninclined to underwrite their profligacy.

Economic measures were eventually agreed, but not as a direct result of the 2008 crash. That merely exposed those who'd been skinny dipping, to quote Warren Buffet's popular phrase of the time.

The EU had no role in their predicaments, that had brought that on themselves. The real reason for the bail-outs was to protect the Euro from the impact of a number of countries re-introducing their old currencies in order to devalue. The bail-outs were judged a less damaging option.[/QUOTE

Are you saying Greece and "other member states" conned the EU ??? ... No way that cant be right
userNicepix
Posted: 6 July 2020 9:04 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 
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Barryd999 - 2020-07-06 6:46 PM

jumpstart - 2020-07-06 5:30 PM

pepe63 - 2020-07-06 11:54 AM

Whilst those who voted to leave would have done so for a number of reasons, please lets not pretend that the "main" reason that Mr/Mrs Average Brexiteer- in- the- street voted as he/she did , was anything to do with "trade deals", and who we were/weren't able to have them with....

No, it was clear from the subject matter in the main media, and the "talk" on social media (very much including this forum) that at the time it wasn't about the above, it was about all those funny "Johnnie Foreigner" types who were supposedly "..comin' ova 'ere..takin' our jobs..cloggin' up our NHS..and scroungin' our benefits.." etc etc.

Also for some, the fact that we (the UK) were having to sit around a table with the aforementioned Johnnie Foreigners' representatives, instead of at the head of it, was never ever going to sit well...



I know it’s fashionable to say that was all about “foreigners” but funnily enough trade and how the EU fails it’s citizens was what people voted on.


That might have been your reasons but it certainly wasnt the reasons most people voted for Brexit.

)


You never learn do you? How on earth have you got the detailed information to evidence that claim?

No wonder nobody takes you seriously.
userBarryd999
Posted: 7 July 2020 8:53 AM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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Nicepix - 2020-07-06 9:04 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-06 6:46 PM

jumpstart - 2020-07-06 5:30 PM

pepe63 - 2020-07-06 11:54 AM

Whilst those who voted to leave would have done so for a number of reasons, please lets not pretend that the "main" reason that Mr/Mrs Average Brexiteer- in- the- street voted as he/she did , was anything to do with "trade deals", and who we were/weren't able to have them with....

No, it was clear from the subject matter in the main media, and the "talk" on social media (very much including this forum) that at the time it wasn't about the above, it was about all those funny "Johnnie Foreigner" types who were supposedly "..comin' ova 'ere..takin' our jobs..cloggin' up our NHS..and scroungin' our benefits.." etc etc.

Also for some, the fact that we (the UK) were having to sit around a table with the aforementioned Johnnie Foreigners' representatives, instead of at the head of it, was never ever going to sit well...



I know it’s fashionable to say that was all about “foreigners” but funnily enough trade and how the EU fails it’s citizens was what people voted on.


That might have been your reasons but it certainly wasnt the reasons most people voted for Brexit.

)


You never learn do you? How on earth have you got the detailed information to evidence that claim?

No wonder nobody takes you seriously.


Seriously? Have you been on a desert island for four years or something? You really would have had to either been cut off from the rest of the world or been walking around with your head up your arse not to believe that immigration was the single biggest reason people voted for Brexit. All the polling leading up to the Brexit vote showed this. Of course after the vote was won as if by magic those that cited immigration as their main reason for voting to leave the EU suddenly decided it was not their main concern after all and the figures citing Immigration as a main concern dropped dramatically. Odd huh?

Breaking point anyone?
userpepe63
Posted: 7 July 2020 9:31 AM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 
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Oh yes, on the run up to the referendum, "Trade deals" were a very real concern to the average Brexiteer in the street..

Edited by pepe63 2020-07-07 9:33 AM




(Breaking point (2).jpg)



(Immigrants 1 (2).jpg)



(Immigrants 2 (2).jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments Breaking point (2).jpg (89KB - 15 downloads)
Attachments Immigrants 1 (2).jpg (90KB - 10 downloads)
Attachments Immigrants 2 (2).jpg (95KB - 10 downloads)
userBarryd999
Posted: 7 July 2020 11:24 AM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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Short memories huh?

I prefer "Shaking Point".





(shaking point (Custom).jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments shaking point (Custom).jpg (79KB - 11 downloads)
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 7 July 2020 11:37 AM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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Birdbrain - 2020-07-06 7:43 PM
Brian Kirby - 2020-07-06 6:56 PM
747 - 2020-07-06 12:34 PM...……………………….So the EU is looking after its member States ..... absolutely hilarious. In the 2008/9 economic downturn they did nothing ... until it looked like the Euro would collapse, along with the EU. Southern European countries were bankrupted while Northern ones protected themselves. The Covid epidemic was past its peak when they reluctantly offered some financial aid. It is a club with first and second class members, we are in the second group.

I think this misrepresents what the EU can do/could have done. The EU has no funding stream for such interventions. It requires unanimity of all member states to change its budget.

Those countries in trouble in 2010 were suffering from their own economic mismanagement (plus in several cases - most notably Greece - their cheating in order to qualify for Euro membership) and the other member states were uninclined to underwrite their profligacy.

Economic measures were eventually agreed, but not as a direct result of the 2008 crash. That merely exposed those who'd been skinny dipping, to quote Warren Buffet's popular phrase of the time.

The EU had no role in their predicaments, that had brought that on themselves. The real reason for the bail-outs was to protect the Euro from the impact of a number of countries re-introducing their old currencies in order to devalue. The bail-outs were judged a less damaging option.


Are you saying Greece and "other member states" conned the EU ??? ... No way that cant be right

Yes, as was widely reported at the time, various countries, most notably Greece, "cooked their books" by concealing substantial debts with the aid of various financial institutions - that most referenced at the time being Goldman Sachs. It was also suggested that the EU were aware this was happening, but were more anxious to ensure that the maximum number of member states joined the €, to give it weight on international markets as a disincentive to speculation. As a new currency, it needed to have, and maintain, "critical mass" in the interests of value stability. It seems to have been a case of "needs must when the devil drives". To that extent, it worked.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 7 July 2020 11:41 AM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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jumpstart - 2020-07-06 5:30 PM
pepe63 - 2020-07-06 11:54 AM
Whilst those who voted to leave would have done so for a number of reasons, please lets not pretend that the "main" reason that Mr/Mrs Average Brexiteer- in- the- street voted as he/she did , was anything to do with "trade deals", and who we were/weren't able to have them with....

No, it was clear from the subject matter in the main media, and the "talk" on social media (very much including this forum) that at the time it wasn't about the above, it was about all those funny "Johnnie Foreigner" types who were supposedly "..comin' ova 'ere..takin' our jobs..cloggin' up our NHS..and scroungin' our benefits.." etc etc.

Also for some, the fact that we (the UK) were having to sit around a table with the aforementioned Johnnie Foreigners' representatives, instead of at the head of it, was never ever going to sit well...


I know it’s fashionable to say that was all about “foreigners” but funnily enough trade and how the EU fails it’s citizens was what people voted on.

What aspects of "trade" prompted voters to vote leave? What trade, with whom?
How has the EU failed it's citizens to the extent that people voted leave on that basis?
userpelmetman
Posted: 7 July 2020 11:50 AM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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Oi Losers.......... if your not happy ..........

There's still time to migrate to the EU .........

http://daystobrexit.co.uk/

.........

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 7 July 2020 11:54 AM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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StuartO - 2020-07-05 7:27 AM
Barryd999 - 2020-07-04 10:41 PM .... Just about every economist reckons the costs of leaving the EU will far outweigh the tiny amount we currently pay in. .....

When people say things like that they deprive themselves of any credibility in the argument they are putting forward.
What evidence can you possibly have for such a fanciful claim? How can you possibly know what "just about every economist" reckons?
If you want to convince people who are not already on your bandwagon, you will have to do a lot better than spout nonesense like that.

One has to apply a little common sense in reading posts. I assume you would accept that it might be somewhat perverse to interpret Barry's point as including every economist in the world, and that a more reasonable interpretation would be to limit those intended to be included to those economists who had actually expressed an opinion on the probable economic impacts of Brexit?

Then the answer to your question is that we know this because the relevant economists were polled around the time of the referendum, and the clear majority (from memory 80% or so) were of that view. I assume those polls still exist, so can be consulted by anyone so inclined.
userNicepix
Posted: 7 July 2020 11:54 AM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 
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Barryd999 - 2020-07-07 9:53 AM

Nicepix - 2020-07-06 9:04 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-06 6:46 PM

jumpstart - 2020-07-06 5:30 PM

pepe63 - 2020-07-06 11:54 AM

Whilst those who voted to leave would have done so for a number of reasons, please lets not pretend that the "main" reason that Mr/Mrs Average Brexiteer- in- the- street voted as he/she did , was anything to do with "trade deals", and who we were/weren't able to have them with....

No, it was clear from the subject matter in the main media, and the "talk" on social media (very much including this forum) that at the time it wasn't about the above, it was about all those funny "Johnnie Foreigner" types who were supposedly "..comin' ova 'ere..takin' our jobs..cloggin' up our NHS..and scroungin' our benefits.." etc etc.

Also for some, the fact that we (the UK) were having to sit around a table with the aforementioned Johnnie Foreigners' representatives, instead of at the head of it, was never ever going to sit well...



I know it’s fashionable to say that was all about “foreigners” but funnily enough trade and how the EU fails it’s citizens was what people voted on.


That might have been your reasons but it certainly wasnt the reasons most people voted for Brexit.

)


You never learn do you? How on earth have you got the detailed information to evidence that claim?

No wonder nobody takes you seriously.


Seriously? Have you been on a desert island for four years or something? You really would have had to either been cut off from the rest of the world or been walking around with your head up your arse not to believe that immigration was the single biggest reason people voted for Brexit. All the polling leading up to the Brexit vote showed this. Of course after the vote was won as if by magic those that cited immigration as their main reason for voting to leave the EU suddenly decided it was not their main concern after all and the figures citing Immigration as a main concern dropped dramatically. Odd huh?

Breaking point anyone?


You cannot say with any authority that most people who voted for Brexit did so because of any one reason. If you can then prove it by showing us where the information concerning every voter's reasons can be found. It is pure snobbery put about by people who simply cannot accept democracy. My wife's ex-boss runs 7 veterinary surgeries, no mug, and he voted Leave because the EU is strangling his business with all its unnecessary regulations designed merely to keep the EU's economies ticking along.

Both sides are as guilty as each other of being mis-informed. I can point to friends and customers who voted Remain simply down to personal circumstances; one for example points to EU funding at the university where his wife works. He doesn't know for sure whether the UK Government would take up the funding, but he voted Remain because he wasn't sure. Another couple who require expensive medication that is currently provided by the mutual agreements voted Remain because they weren't sure whether they would have to pay for it in future. I'll wager that hundreds of thousands in each camp voted the same way; for personal, not national interests. There is a political saying that to overcome the inertia of not changing you need a lot of votes. The 52:48 split doesn't represent truly the country's feelings.

Of those Remain supporters I have spoken to at length about this issue not one knew of the EU's manifesto. Not one had heard of the EU publication 'Three Visions, One Direction' that lays a clear path to an EU army, EU border guards, further integration of politics and financial controls including the appointment of an EU Head of Finance who could over rule member state's budgets or spending plans. Not one knew that the EU absorbed 80% of all import duties on goods coming in from outside the EU. Not one knew the EU creamed off some of the VAT everybody pays. Three Visions, One Direction is an Orwelian document put together by the EU's press office is the fruit of Merkel, Macron and Junckers who are all arch-Fedralists. In fact you will find it difficult to find anyone who is not hell bent on Federalism and "More Europe". in the EU heirachy That is one of the big problems with the EU; there is no balance. So Europe is sleepwalking into a nightmare scenario akin to the USSR.

Brexit might seem to be a big leap in the dark. A bit like jumping off a moving train. But when you know where that train is heading, the risk of jumping into the unknown is better than arriving meekly at the known.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 7 July 2020 12:22 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


Nicepix - 2020-07-05 8:03 AM
StuartO - 2020-07-05 8:27 AM
Barryd999 - 2020-07-04 10:41 PM .... Just about every economist reckons the costs of leaving the EU will far outweigh the tiny amount we currently pay in. .....


When people say things like that they deprive themselves of any credibility in the argument they are putting forward.

What evidence can you possibly have for such a fanciful claim? How can you possibly know what "just about every economist" reckons?

If you want to convince people who are not already on your bandwagon, you will have to do a lot better than spout nonesense like that.


1 Exactly. And the economists who predicted doom and gloom the moment a Leave vote was announced?

2 The fishing industry has declined primarily due to increased competition as a result of sharing UK fisheries with competitors. As I have already posted the UK fishermen will still be able to sell fish to Europe because all the refrigerated lorries bringing farm fresh food from the continent need a return load or the French and Spanish farmers and hauliers will be out of business. Fishing will grow as an employment and in these times of computerisation and mechanisation putting people out of work any increase in jobs is a good thing.

3 So when the Express publish scare stories about French trawlers barricading British ports just remember that they would be preventing French and Spanish perishable cargoes from being landed promptly.

1 Those economists do not, actually, exist. The quote was attributed to Osborne (who has a 2:1 Oxford degree in modern history, and not even a PPE). Osborne was making a political, not an economic, point, in attempting to scare people in to voting remain. The bit that got left out was the underlying assumption of the forecasts was that if we voted to leave we would leave, not that we would delay leaving for 4 years. An economist might have been more cautious in what he said. There were however immediate consequences, as can be seen in the post referendum fall in the value of the £ (about €1.35 to £1.00 pre referendum to an immediate post referendum €1.20 to £1.00, and then fluctuating down to its present level around €1.10 to £1.00). Events since the referendum have borne out the generality of the forecasts, but have been spread hitherto over those 4 years of uncertainty, with various firms shifting their HQs and/or manufacturing plants elsewhere. Actions have consequences.

2 Not sure the decline is primarily due to the reason you quote. What has actually prevented the UK fishing industry from being able to compete with the Spanish and French industries? How is that failure to compete due to the actions or inactions of the EU, as opposed to the actions and inactions of the UK industry or the UK government? It is a rather bold assumption that UK fish will be sold into the European market in future - we do not know how that is to be provided for in whatever trade agreement emerges from the transition negotiations. And if we leave with no agreement?
userBarryd999
Posted: 7 July 2020 12:44 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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Nicepix - 2020-07-07 11:54 AM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-07 9:53 AM

Nicepix - 2020-07-06 9:04 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-07-06 6:46 PM

jumpstart - 2020-07-06 5:30 PM

pepe63 - 2020-07-06 11:54 AM

Whilst those who voted to leave would have done so for a number of reasons, please lets not pretend that the "main" reason that Mr/Mrs Average Brexiteer- in- the- street voted as he/she did , was anything to do with "trade deals", and who we were/weren't able to have them with....

No, it was clear from the subject matter in the main media, and the "talk" on social media (very much including this forum) that at the time it wasn't about the above, it was about all those funny "Johnnie Foreigner" types who were supposedly "..comin' ova 'ere..takin' our jobs..cloggin' up our NHS..and scroungin' our benefits.." etc etc.

Also for some, the fact that we (the UK) were having to sit around a table with the aforementioned Johnnie Foreigners' representatives, instead of at the head of it, was never ever going to sit well...



I know it’s fashionable to say that was all about “foreigners” but funnily enough trade and how the EU fails it’s citizens was what people voted on.


That might have been your reasons but it certainly wasnt the reasons most people voted for Brexit.

)


You never learn do you? How on earth have you got the detailed information to evidence that claim?

No wonder nobody takes you seriously.


Seriously? Have you been on a desert island for four years or something? You really would have had to either been cut off from the rest of the world or been walking around with your head up your arse not to believe that immigration was the single biggest reason people voted for Brexit. All the polling leading up to the Brexit vote showed this. Of course after the vote was won as if by magic those that cited immigration as their main reason for voting to leave the EU suddenly decided it was not their main concern after all and the figures citing Immigration as a main concern dropped dramatically. Odd huh?

Breaking point anyone?


You cannot say with any authority that most people who voted for Brexit did so because of any one reason. If you can then prove it by showing us where the information concerning every voter's reasons can be found. It is pure snobbery put about by people who simply cannot accept democracy. My wife's ex-boss runs 7 veterinary surgeries, no mug, and he voted Leave because the EU is strangling his business with all its unnecessary regulations designed merely to keep the EU's economies ticking along.

Both sides are as guilty as each other of being mis-informed. I can point to friends and customers who voted Remain simply down to personal circumstances; one for example points to EU funding at the university where his wife works. He doesn't know for sure whether the UK Government would take up the funding, but he voted Remain because he wasn't sure. Another couple who require expensive medication that is currently provided by the mutual agreements voted Remain because they weren't sure whether they would have to pay for it in future. I'll wager that hundreds of thousands in each camp voted the same way; for personal, not national interests. There is a political saying that to overcome the inertia of not changing you need a lot of votes. The 52:48 split doesn't represent truly the country's feelings.

Of those Remain supporters I have spoken to at length about this issue not one knew of the EU's manifesto. Not one had heard of the EU publication 'Three Visions, One Direction' that lays a clear path to an EU army, EU border guards, further integration of politics and financial controls including the appointment of an EU Head of Finance who could over rule member state's budgets or spending plans. Not one knew that the EU absorbed 80% of all import duties on goods coming in from outside the EU. Not one knew the EU creamed off some of the VAT everybody pays. Three Visions, One Direction is an Orwelian document put together by the EU's press office is the fruit of Merkel, Macron and Junckers who are all arch-Fedralists. In fact you will find it difficult to find anyone who is not hell bent on Federalism and "More Europe". in the EU heirachy That is one of the big problems with the EU; there is no balance. So Europe is sleepwalking into a nightmare scenario akin to the USSR.

Brexit might seem to be a big leap in the dark. A bit like jumping off a moving train. But when you know where that train is heading, the risk of jumping into the unknown is better than arriving meekly at the known.


Go and do some research yourself. Look at the polls for around early 2016. By a country mile you will see the majority cited Immigration as a key reason for voting to leave the EU. Well that and lots of stupid EU laws that when pressed nobody could ever think of any apart from the made up one about Bananas.

I am sure you can show a few personal examples of clever people who voted to leave or remainers that had a vested interest in remaining. So what? It proves nothing. Over thirty million people voted. 99% of them probably didnt understand the stuff you just googled about the EU publication 'Three Visions, One Direction'. The most popular search in the UK on google the day after the referendum was "what is the EU?".

The UK had the best deal out of all the countries within the EU with more opt outs including opt outs from further federalisation than any other member. EU Army? So what? Why would that be such a bad thing and even if it ever did happen which is unlikely why would we not want to be part of it and if we didnt we can just veto it or not participate. We kind of have joint military operations already anyway. The fear of an EU army by Brexiteers is just typical of their distrust of Johnny Foreigner. Like somehow we are just better than they are or the thought of our brave soldiers being ordered about by some Frenchman is just too much to bear for some of them. Anyway its irrelevant as Brexit was won on a s**t load of lies and plane old racism. Democracy? Dont make me laugh. Our Democracy died in 2016.



Edited by Barryd999 2020-07-07 12:45 PM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 7 July 2020 1:07 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 


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Nicepix - 2020-07-05 4:13 PM
1 First the £10 for £1 issue. The headline says: ..."It’s an estimate based on a study, not solid fact,".... Not solid fact. We have already seen how accurate these forecasts are (not.)

2 Second the trade deficit: "The UK had an overall trade deficit of -£72 billion with the EU in 2019. A surplus of £23 billion on trade in services was outweighed by a deficit of -£95 billion on trade in goods. The UK had a trade surplus of £46 billion with non-EU countries. ..." So £95 billion is a small amount is it?

3 Third: Freedom of Movement. Are you aware that EU countries also have a shortage of low skilled labour and farmers in Germany cannot recruit enough farm labourers? So Freedom of Movement isn't solving that issue even before COVID.
"Source: Xinhua 2018-05-23 02:50:26……………………………....

1 That is normal, it is a forecast - a working assumption based on extrapolation from present data. That should not invalidate it, as you appear to be doing. If the forecast is a 10 - 1 advantage, and you consider that OTT, on what basis do you reject the 10 - 1 advantage, what figure would you substitute, and why? Better reasoned discussion than whack-a-mole?

2 That we have a trade surplus with non EU countries doesn't dictate that it is sensible to forego EU trade because we have a deficit with them. Surely that tells us that we need to address the reasons for that EU deficit in the reasonable expectation that in so doing we should also increase our non-EU world trade? It just seems defeatist to walk away from trade with countries with whom we have trade deficits - especially when they are the nearest and cheapest countries to which we can export. Not much of a model for a foreign trade policy, surely?

3 Since before the referendum, and before we actually left the EU in January this year, we have had approximately 1.3 million non EU workers in the UK against approximately 2.3 million from within the EU. The figures for both seem not to have varied by much over the past 5 years. So, even while members of the EU we could, and did, employ non-EUforeign workers. Leaving won't alter that. So the advantage of leaving is what?

The whole point of the EEC/EU has been to make European states wealthy. That the Germans can't now get cheap labour from within the EU points to the gradual success of that policy. As the poorer countries get richer, the numbers of people to willing to travel for low paid jobs falls. With their growing wealth their purchasing power grows, and they consume more, and so on. That is to the potential advantage of all member states. That is the objective, and that German labour shortage points to its success.

So, either the cost of agricultural products must rise to levels that attract indigenous labour, or non-EU labour should be employed as proposed, or the productivity of German agriculture needs to rise to reduce the overall demand for such labour - or some combination of all three. That is success, not failure.

Ultimately, trying to run our industry on the basis of importing cheap goods (and so prevention those goods being produced at home) or on importing cheap labour (and so preventing the employment of our own) will prove self-defeating. Out history is trying to tell us that, but we prefer to stick to cheap and any (future) price. That, very neatly, takes us back to the state pre- EEC Britain was in. Our fundamentals haven't changed in 40 years. We joined the EEC to try to fix them, and were leaving it for the same reason with the fundamentals still unfixed. Th EU simply became the excuse for continuing to ignore them. It didn't work in 1973, and it won't work now. Brexit is a diversion, not a cure.
userpepe63
Posted: 7 July 2020 2:02 PM
Subject: RE: When will we see the benefits?
 
20002000500100100100252525


Just Google these two phrases in turn (without the quotation marks) and then click "images"

"pre-referendum trade deal Headlines"

"pre-referendum immigration Headlines"

...and once you've seen what they bring up, then ask yourselves whether or not "immigration" was a (the?) major issue for the Brexit project?

..and it is somewhat farcical, that on this thread alone, we have some who having voted for the UK to leave the EU, they themselves choose to spend at least 6 months a year living/holidying within the EU, and another who has chosen to actually live within it !?

If the EU is really that bad, that poorly run and that corrupt (and it may well be all of those things, who knows?) then why on earth would leave voters choose to live within it's borders?



Edited by pepe63 2020-07-07 2:07 PM
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