david1949 Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 I thought i would remind all you,s motorhomers about your speed limits in the UK . I was on holidays driving on the A14 Huntington in my 3.5 tonne motorhome driving along at 65 MPH over three days i was on this dual carriageway and was clocked at 63/ 65/ & 67 M P H a total of 9 points . It was all waiting for me when i got home after my 8 week holiday so watch your speed limits are you could be like me getting points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 As I understand it the weight limit for 70 mph is 3050 kg UNLADEN - not 3500kg GVW? What is your unladen weight as you might have grounds for appeal if under 3050 kg? The DVLA might not know as it may well not be on the V5 and so you might have been done by mistake? http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/motorhome-speed-limits.shtml I thought we were 'allowed' up to 10% over the speed limit - which would mean that 63 and 65 mph should not have been done for? I regularly use the sat nav indicated cruising speed to keep me between the set speed limit and the +10% figure so have I just been very very lucky so far? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 David, I know you have (or at least had) a Hymer, but am not sure of which model, so I can't check basic facts. As has been discussed (several times) at length on here, speed limits for motorcaravans (at least up to 3500kg GVW) are governed by the unladen weight of the vehicle, and up to a maximum of 3050kg unladen the same limits as cars apply. Whilst there is some debate about the definition of unladen weight in this context, there is absolutely no way it could be construed as being more than the MIRO, and personally, I would argue that it is less than that (excluding, for example, water and gas). If your GVW is 3500kg, I would suspect you could probably make a very good case that the higher (car) speed limits applied. I would certainly do some calculations (or check whatever Hymer documentation you can find). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean.clarke Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Odd - even if you were ticketed as 3.5T, on a dual carriageway the limit would be 60mph - you got a ticket for 63 and 65mph? I thought speedometers only had a quoted accuracy or +/- 10%. I'd certainly not be happy and contest the 63 and 65mpg ones - or am I missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 sean.clarke - 2012-06-15 12:34 PM Odd - even if you were ticketed as 3.5T, on a dual carriageway the limit would be 60mph - you got a ticket for 63 and 65mph? I thought speedometers only had a quoted accuracy or +/- 10%. I'd certainly not be happy and contest the 63 and 65mpg ones - or am I missing something? Unfortunately Sean, you are missing something and your interpretation isn't correct either. Speed cameras measure distance against time and give an accurate conversion to velocity i.e. speed, so if they say he was doing 65mph, then his speedo would definately been reading over 70mph as they are designed to show less than your true speed. (You can confirm this by pottering along at an indicated (say) 50mph, then check your true speed on your GPS or sat nav. As for the OP, you need to check the manufacturers plate, as some converters (especially on European vans), downplate to benefit from lower taxation and controls. It could be that your V5 has not been altered, I discovered my Hymer was plated at 3200 in Germany where I imported it from, yet the Fiat weight plate showed 3500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 sean.clarke - 2012-06-15 12:34 PM Odd - even if you were ticketed as 3.5T, on a dual carriageway the limit would be 60mph - you got a ticket for 63 and 65mph? I thought speedometers only had a quoted accuracy or +/- 10%. I'd certainly not be happy and contest the 63 and 65mpg ones - or am I missing something? ....whilst there is tolerance for speedometers, they're not allowed to under-read. I suspect the section of road in question is that under average speed cameras, and they were specifically installed to control HGVs. I strongly suspect they have a size or weight link, and the OP has fallen foul of some generic "programming" that may not apply in law to his particular vehicle. BTW - if the offences were all registered by Specs (average speed) cameras, consecutively, on the same journey, even if the limit did apply - and I suspect it didn't, then there is a very good case, and legal precedent to request them to be considered as a single offence. (3 points rather than 9). I would strongly suggest you do the homework. I would expect the unladen weight of your motorcaravan to be below the limit, with no case to answer. If it isn't, then I would suggest you take legal advice on the "single offence" question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david1949 Posted June 15, 2012 Author Share Posted June 15, 2012 All i can tell you is small vans up to 2 tonnes is the same as cars over that you are restricted I am not going to contest the tickets my Hymer is plated at 3.500 and i was told by a friend last year that a friend of his was clocked doing 31 in a 30 zone i thought he was spoofing then until my daughter was clocked in Cambridge 10 weeks ago doing 32 in a 30 M P H zone. There is no leeway i was in the wrong and now i am paying for my stupidity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 david1949 - 2012-06-15 12:49 PM All i can tell you is small vans up to 2 tonnes is the same as cars over that you are restricted David, you are absolutely wrong, and it may cost you if you retain that view. Specifically, if your V5 describes your vehicle as a motorcaravan, if its unladen weight is no more than 3050kg (equivalent to 3 Imperial tons) then you are subject to the same speed limit as cars. I suspect if you appeal on the basis of the motorcaravan description, and quote an unladen weight of less than 3050kg, you will be immediately let off (as long, of course, as the stretch of road was "derestricted"). If you want a definitive view, see the following police link http://www.dcsafetycameras.org/education/carDrivers/index.aspx ...the second table in which contains the entry below Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 david1949 - 2012-06-15 12:49 PM I am not going to contest the tickets my Hymer is plated at 3.500 and i was told by a friend last year that a friend of his was clocked doing 31 in a 30 zone i thought he was spoofing then until my daughter was clocked in Cambridge 10 weeks ago doing 32 in a 30 M P H zone. There is no leeway i was in the wrong and now i am paying for my stupidity I quite agree that it is sensible to put your hand up if you actually commited an offence, but it seems quite extraordinary to do so to three separate offences when there is every likelihood that: i) there was no offence at all ii) even if there was (unladen weight over 3050kg) the law would probably consider it to be a single offence ....now that would be paying for your stupidity. ;-) I believe you've fallen foul of a completely mechanised process where no-one has botherd to check the validity of the NIPs. Read the above advice, check to see if it applies to your circumstances, and then use the web if necessary to validate it. It is absolutely pukka advice, and I see no reason why you should put your hand up if you've not committed any offence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 David, I totally agree with RH and the other previous posters, your speed is limited by your UNLADEN weight and NOT your GVW. Here is a Link to the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984. If you look at line item No 1 you will see the following "A passenger vehicle, motor caravan or dual-purpose vehicle not drawing a trailer being a vehicle with an unladen weight EXCEEDING 3·05 tonnes..." that is then limited to 60 mph on Dual Carriageways. This, by implication, then means that a Motor Caravan under 3.05 tonnes unladen weight IS NOT restricted to 60 mph. I assure you I have researched this long and hard as our MH has a GVW of 3,800 kg but an unladen weight of less that 3,050 kg (and I carry a calculated weight sheet to back this up). I suggest you get some advice and fight these speeding allegations (as that is all they are at the moment) IF your unladen weight is less than 3,050 kg. Keith. PS Are you a member of AA, RAC, CC or C&CC to seek advice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david1949 Posted June 15, 2012 Author Share Posted June 15, 2012 Robinhood - 2012-06-15 1:35 PM Thankyou Robinhood for your advive i am enclosing a photo of the Hymer Plate as you see it comes in at 3500 tonne david1949 - 2012-06-15 12:49 PM I am not going to contest the tickets my Hymer is plated at 3.500 and i was told by a friend last year that a friend of his was clocked doing 31 in a 30 zone i thought he was spoofing then until my daughter was clocked in Cambridge 10 weeks ago doing 32 in a 30 M P H zone. There is no leeway i was in the wrong and now i am paying for my stupidity I quite agree that it is sensible to put your hand up if you actually commited an offence, but it seems quite extraordinary to do so to three separate offences when there is every likelihood that: i) there was no offence at all ii) even if there was (unladen weight over 3050kg) the law would probably consider it to be a single offence ....now that would be paying for your stupidity. ;-) I believe you've fallen foul of a completely mechanised process where no-one has botherd to check the validity of the NIPs. Read the above advice, check to see if it applies to your circumstances, and then use the web if necessary to validate it. It is absolutely pukka advice, and I see no reason why you should put your hand up if you've not committed any offence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david1949 Posted June 15, 2012 Author Share Posted June 15, 2012 david1949 - 2012-06-15 1:47 PM Thank You for your advice Robinhood i will take it on board i am posting the weight plate from my Hymer Robinhood - 2012-06-15 1:35 PM Thankyou Robinhood for your advive i am enclosing a photo of the Hymer Plate as you see it comes in at 3500 tonne david1949 - 2012-06-15 12:49 PM I am not going to contest the tickets my Hymer is plated at 3.500 and i was told by a friend last year that a friend of his was clocked doing 31 in a 30 zone i thought he was spoofing then until my daughter was clocked in Cambridge 10 weeks ago doing 32 in a 30 M P H zone. There is no leeway i was in the wrong and now i am paying for my stupidity I quite agree that it is sensible to put your hand up if you actually commited an offence, but it seems quite extraordinary to do so to three separate offences when there is every likelihood that: i) there was no offence at all ii) even if there was (unladen weight over 3050kg) the law would probably consider it to be a single offence ....now that would be paying for your stupidity. ;-) I believe you've fallen foul of a completely mechanised process where no-one has botherd to check the validity of the NIPs. Read the above advice, check to see if it applies to your circumstances, and then use the web if necessary to validate it. It is absolutely pukka advice, and I see no reason why you should put your hand up if you've not committed any offence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 david1949 - 2012-06-15 1:47 PM Thankyou Robinhood for your advive i am enclosing a photo of the Hymer Plate as you see it comes in at 3500 tonne ....the important thing, David, is that for a motorcaravan, the speed limits do not depend on the plated (GVW, sometimes known as MAM or MTPLM) weight, but on the unladen weight. Keith has posted much the same above. My own van has a plated weight of 3500kg, but the manufacturer-quoted Mass in Running Order (including 100kg of water, gas, etc) is 2870kg. This is much less than the 3050kg weight that the speed limit relies on, and I assess the real unladen weight to be something around 2700kg. I am absolutely clear that I am (despite the plated weight) subject to the same speed limits as a normal car. Whilst some Hymers on the 3500kg chassis had a limited payload, I think it very unlikely that your 'van (unless it is bristling with heavy extras) has an unladen weight of greater than 3050kg. I would therefore expect that you are subject to "car" speed limits too. Can you post exactly which model and year it is, and I'll see if I can find some indicative data in the archives. If there is something indicative, that may be enough to get you off, but at worst, I'd empty the van out, dump all water, and spend £10 or so on a weighbridge ticket. It would be worth it to avoid points and fine, and would leave you well placed for the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCC Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 To answer Tracker's point about the 10% leeway that is widely assumed to apply, in some areas it does and in some it doesn't. It's not a legal allowance. I was told at a "speed awareness" course last year that Hertfordshire allows 10% but Northamptonshire applies the strict limit. Doesn't help us road users very much, but I suspect that most motorhomes will have speedometers that overread by about 10% anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Thanks for that PCC - perhaps I had better keep the sat nav indicated speed nearer the speed limit than 10% above it after all!! It is not just the 9 points and fines - the insurance implications and probable premium loadings for the next five years will become very tiresome and expensive - quite apart from the fact that one more minor indiscretion will cost you your license and even more in insurance costs and increased excesses as well as considerable inconvenience whilst banned or suspended. On that basis alone this has to be worth contesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david1949 Posted June 15, 2012 Author Share Posted June 15, 2012 Robinhood - 2012-06-15 2:02 PM . david1949 - 2012-06-15 1:47 PM Thankyou Robinhood for your advive i was trying to enclosing a photo of the Hymer Plate on the motorhome i took it in e mail size but it would not download ....the important thing, David, is that for a motorcaravan, the speed limits do not depend on the plated (GVW, sometimes known as MAM or MTPLM) weight, but on the unladen weight. Keith has posted much the same above. My own van has a plated weight of 3500kg, but the manufacturer-quoted Mass in Running Order (including 100kg of water, gas, etc) is 2870kg. This is much less than the 3050kg weight that the speed limit relies on, and I assess the real unladen weight to be something around 2700kg. I am absolutely clear that I am (despite the plated weight) subject to the same speed limits as a normal car. Whilst some Hymers on the 3500kg chassis had a limted payload, I think it very unlikely that you 'van (unless it is bristling with heavy extras) has an unladen weight of greater than 3050kg. I would therefore expect that you are subject to "car" speed limits too. Can you post exactly which model and year it is, and I'll see if I can find some indicative data in the archives. If there is something indicative, that may be enough to get you off, but at worst, I'd empty the van out, dump all water, and spend £10 or so on a weighbridge ticket. It would be worth it to avoid points and fine, and would leave you well placed for the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 David, It is very unlikely that your MH plate will show your UNLADEN weight. I had to get the manufacturers MIRO from the brochure and deduct the items it included, driver, fuel, etc then add on permanent extras, ie towbar, bike rack, etc. I arrived at a figure of 2,945 kg, so well within the limit of 3,050 kg, and carry a copy of my calculation to prove it. (I know that many manufacturers quote +/- 5% but with what evidence?). IMO plod would have to argue against this with what evidence? Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Tracker - 2012-06-15 2:08 PM Thanks for that PCC - perhaps I had better keep the sat nav indicated speed nearer the speed limit than 10% above it after all!! The ACPO guidelines have not changed for some years, (+10% + 2mph) and are in the public domain under FOI rules. They are as set out below, BUT, as is obvious from the wording, they are only guidelines, and you are liable to prosecution if you are only one mph over the limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete-B Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Hi, The van I'm getting say's it has a Mass In Running Order of 3000kg, is that the same as unladen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 David, I've just found reference to your 'van being a Silverline 562. If this is stiil the one in question, I am 99.9% certain that your unladen weight will be (well) below 3050kg. ==== Edited to add Hymer Archives show the MIRO of a standard Silverline 562 (Van - not Exis) to be 2870kg - which doesn't surprise me as it is much the same in equpment and layout as my Hobby. http://www.hymer.ag/medien/pdf/1232465838-Van_SilverLine_D.pdf ==== If your V5C describes your vehicle as a motorcaravan (as it should) ....and the road in question was "national speed limit" and not a lower prescribed overall limit...... then I am convinced you should contest the tickets. Edited to add weight data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Pete-B - 2012-06-15 2:27 PM Hi, The van I'm getting say's it has a Mass In Running Order of 3000kg, is that the same as unladen? ...the terminology is subject to discussion, but my opinion is that is is not. As the MIRO normally allows for full water, driver, almost full gas, etc, your unladen weight will be lower (by quite a bit). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david1949 Posted June 15, 2012 Author Share Posted June 15, 2012 Hi Robinhood details of my motorhome as asked for by you Hymer Silverline 562 on a Transit 2.2 bought 18/11/2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 David, see above (I'd searched your posts) subject to the V5C and road categorisation questions, you should contest!. (the PDF attached should provide some good evidence as to weight). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Deleted - duplicate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Sounds like they have wrongly thought your van to be a 3.5 tonne goods vehicle, in which case the speed limit would have been 60mph, not 70mph. (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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