Wooie Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 david1949 - 2012-06-15 2:38 PM Hi Robinhood details of my motorhome as asked for by you Hymer Silverline 562 on a Transit 2.2 bought 18/11/2010 David, I see the model can be plated at both 3,500Kgs and 3,850Kgs. just out of interest what does it state on your V5 under the, " Body Type and Taxation Class and Revenue Weight " ? Also how much road tax are you paying ? Regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david1949 Posted June 15, 2012 Author Share Posted June 15, 2012 Thank you all for your help in this matter and a very big thank you to Robin hood for all your advice and who rally pushed the boot out to help me . Now i will print of all and take it to a Solicitor and contest the tickets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Well done! If your 'van is registered as a motorcaravan on the V5C, and the section of the A14 in question is not subject to anything but the national speed limit, then I am convinced you have no case to answer. (but only if.... in both cases) AA or RAC should be able to help if you are a member (or if you have legal expenses cover on your motoring insurance that may do you). There is clear evidence from Hymer documentation that your unladen weight is below 3050kg - just make sure that anyone you consult understands the fact that the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 treats motorcaravans as a special case, (different from a normal 'van) with speed limits based on the unladen weight. I must admit that on the basis of my knowledge, I would be happy to contest the tickets if they were mine without further advice, but I've never been through the process personally, so can't advise how (and AIUI, various Police Forces have differing policies on informally contesting tickets, and may require them to be contested in court). Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david1949 Posted June 15, 2012 Author Share Posted June 15, 2012 Wooie - 2012-06-15 3:26 PM david1949 - 2012-06-15 2:38 PM Hi Robinhood details of my motorhome as asked for by you Hymer Silverline 562 on a Transit 2.2 bought 18/11/2010 Om my v5 i am plated as 3500 David, I see the model can be plated at both 3,500Kgs and 3,850Kgs. just out of interest what does it state on your V5 under the, " Body Type and Taxation Class and Revenue Weight " ? Also how much road tax are you paying ? Regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 David, I'm glad you're going to contest them as I agree with others that they are incorrectly issued. Is there an appeal procedure detailed on them or any indication what to do next? The real point to stress is as I posted earlier, under the RTA 1984 as a Motor Caravan under 3,050 kg Unladen you are restricted to car speeds and not HGV. All the best, Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david1949 Posted June 15, 2012 Author Share Posted June 15, 2012 I will be seeing a Solicitor on Monday and taking his advice and i hope that he will take all to do with it i will also be looking to claim my cost back . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 Hi David I doubt if you'd be able to get your solicitor's costs back unless it went to court and you were awarded costs (subject to a successful outcome for you). If you are a member of the Caravan Club or Camping & Caravanning Club then contact them instead as both clubs have a legal section who are there to assist members. You could also/instead, make contact with whoever has issued the penalty notices (no doubt there are details on the paperwork although I've never had any to say for sure!) and see what you have to do to make representation. You may find that you do NOT need to see a solicitor at all and save you a lot of dosh in the process - solicitors aren't cheap and they are NOT your friends, the more time you spend with them, and the more time they can spend on your issue, the more it will COST you, so only go down that route if you have no other option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david1949 Posted June 16, 2012 Author Share Posted June 16, 2012 Thank,s MEL B i am a member of the Caravan and Camping Club i give them a ring first thing on Monday morning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 And don't forget AA and RAC offer similar advice, or maybe you get free legal cover with an insurance policy. Worth checking before parting with your hard earned! Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 I had in the back of my mind this link http://www.pepipoo.com/ but whilst searcing for it I saw that Motoring Which offers advice as well. Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 david1949 - 2012-06-16 1:44 AM Thank,s MEL B i am a member of the Caravan and Camping Club i give them a ring first thing on Monday morning ....can't find anything on the C&CC site on Motorcaravan Speed Limits, but the Caravan Club FAQ on Motorhomes has the same advice as you are gettting (i.e. the unladen weight of 3050kg is the key criterion). http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/media/22444/your%20top%2020%20motorhome%20questions.pdf (which gives me an error loading, but still shows the relevant information at item 7). The following link, though far from official, gives you a very clear view: http://www.southdownsmotorcaravans.co.uk/misc/speedlimits.php .....including, towards the bottom, the encouraging definition of unladen weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 Unladen weight, to the best of my knowledge, is the weight of the vehicle when totally empty, including empty of fuel. So, if you really want to know, take out everything loose, including the toolkit, and spare wheel if fitted, mains leads, gas cylinders, drain off all water, make sure toilet cassette is empty - and that the flush tank, if present, is also empty, remove all food, liquids, clothing, clutter, toys etc and drive to a weighbridge when low on fuel, and weigh it. Anything fixed to the van, or that is part of the furniture (mattress, seat squabs etc, it should remain) the vehicle is a motor caravan, after all!. That, as near as you'll be able to get, will be the unladen weight, ignoring the relatively marginal additional weight of whatever is in the fuel tank at the time. That should provide you with a weighbridge certificate giving evidence of your vehicle's weight as presented. Since unladen weight is the lightest any vehicle can sensibly be reduced to, your certificate will invariably slightly over record. However, all it needs to show is a weight under 3050kg to prove your point. It should, on a 3,500kg MAM van, be comfortably below unless your's has a very poor payload. That printed certificate, from an official weighbridge, should carry the registration number of your vehicle and should be all the evidence you'll need to prove your point that the fines were unwarranted, and should be reimbursed. I agree with Mel, don't use a solicitor for this unless you are faced with total intransigence by the authorities. You absolutely should not need to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 http://www.which.co.uk/cars/driving/driving-advice/dealing-with-speeding-tickets/how-to-contest-a-speeding-ticket/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Robinhood - 2012-06-15 2:33 PM If your V5C describes your vehicle as a motorcaravan (as it should) Can't help but think that this is the problem. If not I'm sure there would be many more threads on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 colin - 2012-06-17 12:27 PM Robinhood - 2012-06-15 2:33 PM If your V5C describes your vehicle as a motorcaravan (as it should) Can't help but think that this is the problem. If not I'm sure there would be many more threads on the subject. ....I'm not so sure. Though the A14 is certainly equipped in sections with Specs (average speed) cameras which rely on number plate recognition, and thus it should certainly be possible via database links to identify the fact that a vehicle was registered as a motorcaravan, there is no record of the unladen weight that could be checked anywhere, hence it is likely that a NIP would be issued. Even more relevant, it is widely published that there are Gatso cameras that can differentiate between HGVs and cars (presumably either by in-road weight sensors or some sort of sizing profile), applying differential limits to each. As these do not use number plate recognition in real time, then any operative reviewing the data/pictures would have to subsequently identify the vehicle type, and then the same issue as above would apply - no record of unladen weight - hence the likelihood of issuing a NIP. I would be more concerned about the other issue - whether in fact the road has a limit imposed below the national speed limit. They've messed about with the A14 over the years, and I'm not sure whether they dropped the overall limit. (I also assumed that David wasn't towing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 For unladen weight, have a look at this earlier post, especially the last words from the late Mel Eastburn: http://tinyurl.com/c4mfnp9 However, it would be very wise to also check that the vehicle description given at "D.3 Body type", of your V5C registration document (log book) actually says "Motor Caravan". If it doesn't, the number plate recognition cameras will have referred back to what has probably been registered as a goods vehicle. Goods vehicles under 7.5 tonnes are restricted to 60MPH on dual carriageways (70MPH on motorways only) so, unless there were variable or other speed limits set at 60MPH (shown within a red circle) for the section on which you were booked, it would seem your vehicle may have been incorrectly identified as a goods vehicle, which may equally well explain the tickets. I'm not sure how you'd stand now if the V5C is incorrect, as the vehicle owner is supposed to check it for accuracy, report any anomalies, and return it to DVLA for correction. If it is wrong, and you've failed to notice the error, one would hope that, once the error is pointed out and corrected, at least the points would be removed. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_C Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Robinhood - 2012-06-16 8:41 PM The following link, though far from official, gives you a very clear view: http://www.southdownsmotorcaravans.co.uk/misc/speedlimits.php I think Southdowns have one of their figures wrong, the dual carriageway speed limit for motor caravans with an unladen weight of more than 3050Kg is 60mph not 70mph. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Andy_C - 2012-06-17 1:33 PM Robinhood - 2012-06-16 8:41 PM The following link, though far from official, gives you a very clear view: http://www.southdownsmotorcaravans.co.uk/misc/speedlimits.php I think Southdowns have one of their figures wrong, the dual carriageway speed limit for motor caravans with an unladen weight of more than 3050Kg is 60mph not 70mph. Andy .....yes, I agree. As we don't think this applies in David's case (he should be below 3050kg), I hadn't bothered reading that bit before posting. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawki Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Yes, I agree with brian , take your empty van to a weighbridge asap if it is less than 3050kg then no case to answer. I would even take a photo of your van on the weighbridge to send to them with the weighbridge ticket. If you have a VOSA weighbridge near you then even better take it there. I certainly would not bother with a solicitor at this time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 I doesn't matter how many weighbridge tickets the o/p gets he will still probably get done. As the speed limit for all vehicles on that stretch of road is 60MPH and is monitored by specs average speed cameras. Sorry. Details here:- Cambridgeshire Speed Camera Location Nearest Town/village: Huntingdon Road Name: A14 Direction of Camera: Eastbound Speed Limit: 70mph to be reduced to 60mph Speed Camera Details: SPECS average speed cameras being installed on A14 dual carriageway between Huntingdon and Cambridge, speed limit currently 70mph, but once speed cameras become operational speed limit will drop to 60mph. These SPECS speed cameras are a permanent installation and also cover the westbound A14 carriageway from Cambridge see Ref. #: EEC048. Ref. #: EEC001 And here:- http://www.speedcamerasuk.com/database/EEC/eec001.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 peter - 2012-06-17 9:05 PM I doesn't matter how many weighbridge tickets the o/p gets he will still probably get done. As the speed limit for all vehicles on that stretch of road is 60MPH and is monitored by specs average speed cameras. Sorry. Details here:- Cambridgeshire Speed Camera Location Nearest Town/village: Huntingdon Road Name: A14 Direction of Camera: Eastbound Speed Limit: 70mph to be reduced to 60mph Speed Camera Details: SPECS average speed cameras being installed on A14 dual carriageway between Huntingdon and Cambridge, speed limit currently 70mph, but once speed cameras become operational speed limit will drop to 60mph. These SPECS speed cameras are a permanent installation and also cover the westbound A14 carriageway from Cambridge see Ref. #: EEC048. Ref. #: EEC001 And here:- http://www.speedcamerasuk.com/database/EEC/eec001.htm ........I'd already found that link, but I'm not at all certain that the reduction (one of many that was mooted) was ever implemented. (but was why I had previously posted the "ifs" in my posts). I also don't recall seeing a 60 limit on that road, which I've travelled a good few times post-installation of the Specs cameras. (there was previously, and long-term, a 50 limit and average speed checking, supporting roadworks) The official "safety camera partnership" site for round here shows the locations AND limits of all fixed cameras, but that for Peterborough and Cambridgeshire shows only locations. Google StreetView, however (though obviously not current) shows both the Specs cameras and average speed check signs, AND national speed limit signs (not 60mph). Edited to add: ....and I've just found a Green Party 'blog' from 4 months ago, proposing that, amongst other things, the limit for that stretch of road should be reduced to 60mph, which reinforces my view that it is still NSL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 http://www.itoworld.com/map/5# This site shows it as being 60/65 mph. You may have to search as my cookies might be going straight to zoomed in map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david1949 Posted June 17, 2012 Author Share Posted June 17, 2012 HI all been reading your post and i can say that in the 3 days i used the A14 coming onto it and along it and leaving it i did not see a speed saying 60MPH. I have also rang my daughter who using this road every day for work and she tells me that it is a 70MPH she comes on the slip road above where i came on and leaves 2 junctions below where i came off and when she drives she take it right to the wire i would not sit in the car with her when we all go out i drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 I hope I'm wrong in that case. At least he'll have a chance of getting off. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Brambles - 2012-06-17 10:34 PM http://www.itoworld.com/map/5# This site shows it as being 60/65 mph. You may have to search as my cookies might be going straight to zoomed in map. Shows 70/75 for me Jon. :-S ....as does (70mph) the camera locations (specs) on: http://www.speedcameramap.co.uk/ David has his own view of it being NSL, corroborated by his daughter. I can only restate the original stance: 1. If his V5C describes his vehicle as a "motorcaravan" (David can check) 2. If the unladen weight is less than 3050kg (we are convinced it is unless he has massively weighty additional accessories) 3. If the road was NSL, and not a lower limit (e.g. 50 or 60 mph - and David is convinced) 4. If he was not towing ....then there is no case to answer - the tickets would appear to have been issued on the basis of it not being a motorcaravan with an unladen weight of less than 3050kg, but rather an ordinary LCV. The first hurdle was convincing David he shouldn't put his hand up. We appear to have achieved that. The next is to contest the tickets, and if David isn't clear on how to do that (the info should be on the ticket, and there are links posted above on how to proceed - but some time appears to have passed in the interim, which may complicate stuff), then some advice might be appropriate - I would read the tickets, and if not clear consult a motoring organsation or perhaps the CAB. Frankly, I think the weighbridge ticket is something I would keep in reserve (unless it can be achieved simply). The Hymer PDF I've already linked to provides Prima Facie evidence that the vehicle is of a weight that should be subject to car speed limits. Whatever, if dDvid is sure of the 4 facts above, he needs to contest in a manner that he is comfortable with. I have little doubt that, even if it involves an investment that some of us would not make, (being comfortable without), not picking up 9 points - at risk of losing the licence at any point in the next three years for a single, genuine, transgression -l (never mind any fines) will be well worthwhile. "Not guilty of the offence as stated because the vehicle is a motorcaravan, with an unladen weight of less than 3050kg (ref PDF as evidence), and thus is subject under the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 to a limit of 70mph on NSL stretches of dual carriageway, which is where the alleged offence took place". Good luck David - if we can help, just ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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