You are logged in as a guest. 
  Home Forums Home  Search our Forums Search our Forums    Log in to the Forums Log in to the Forums  register Register on the Forums  

 Forums ->  Motorhomes -> Motorhome Matters
Jump to page : FirstPrevious 1 2 Last
Format:  Go
Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
AuthorMessage
userAlanb
Posted: 27 April 2018 11:18 PM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 
Epic contributor

Posts: 1182
1000100252525
Location: North Yorkshire


aandncaravan - 2018-04-27 3:03 PM

I am not sure what is meant by
"A viable alternative, as used on CBE 12V systems, is to use an ignition switch controlled supply, and monitor it with an integrated VCR".



Allan

To elaborate on the above, CBE systems take an ignition switch controlled positive, and monitor the voltage using I think an, operational amplifier (OPAMP) used as a voltage monitor. The output of the OPAMP is used to power a small DIL (dual inline) relay that is operated when the monitored voltage reaches charging magnitude. The contacts of the DIL relay are then used to operate the split charge and fridge relays, as well as providing a "simulated D+" output for any other devices.

(Note: There is a dual OPAMP mounted on CBE 12V distribution boards, and it is deduction that one section is used for the charge voltage detector above,and the other section is used for the stated 10.6V low battery cut out. Why this voltage is set at such a battery damaging low level, defies my understanding.)

By the above the "simulated D+" is only high when the ignition is ON and the system voltage is of a charging magnitude. I was not suggesting the use of a VCR in the conventional way. Since the VCR already exists it makes economic sense to use it, but if starting from scratch I would consider a "12V charge monitoring relay" such as those available on Ebay for about £5.25.

As regards using the D+ on the Gareth's vehicle, a converted 2014 Citroen Relay, Mikefitz has pointed out that the D+ is not available on this vehicle unless a conversion pack is ordered when the vehicle is specified.

I have now nearly 12 years of experience of using the CBE system on my PVC, and it does not give rise to the problems that you describe.

My apologies to the non technically minded for all the jargon.

Alan



Edited by Alanb 2018-04-27 11:19 PM
usermikefitz
Posted: 28 April 2018 10:31 AM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 
Gets involved

Posts: 264
1001002525
Location: Silves, Portugal


Thank you for the welcome.
When I was advising on an instalation in a Citroen van, Sargent were asked for advice, they replied:

"You can use a VSR, however you will need to connect it to an ignition switched supply, not directly to the vehicle battery. If you do connect directly to the battery, then if the EC328 mains charger is switched on and vehicle battery is selected from the EC328 control panel, the charger output will be connected to the VSR so the increased voltage may cause it to operate and so shut down the leisure loads. "

Further communication with Sargent sugested using a relay powered by the fuel pump circuit and using this to swith 12v to the Sargent control input, ( no VSR in citcuit):

"When the fuel pump is powered up, the relay coil will energize, this will then give a nice cleanly switched 12V from the vehicle battery to put the EC328 into engine run mode."

To help with the original problem, when the engine is switched off the engine battery will stay at a voltage above the VSR switch point for some time. If the ign switch is turned on again for a second or two the electrical load will remove the battery surface charge and the VSR will drop out.

My personal view is that the ign on with VSR should be used, as with ign on alone, the starter current may cause proplems.

Mike

Edited by mikefitz 2018-04-28 10:50 AM
useraandncaravan
Posted: 28 April 2018 6:22 PM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 
Forum master

Posts: 2265
20001001002525
Location: Conwy, North Wales


Alanb and Mike, I was just trying to highlight that with the existing set-up there are other issues waiting to become a problem.

I did read about the ECU control, but it wouldn't be difficult for an Auto sparky to retro fit the parts, so still think that direct 'D+' style control is the ideal solution..

However, thinking more about your ideas, I agree with you both that the easiest solution is to change the direct Starter battery feed to the VSR to use an ignition controlled source. That should result in the VSR 'disconnecting' as soon as the ignition is turned off.

The VSR is almost certainly located outside the EC160, (probably near the Starter battery?) so this solution shouldn't require the 'restricted access' EC160 to be moved at all, yet should overcome all normal VSR related issues.


Trialsrider, Can I suggest you look on the Starter battery for a 'non manufacturer' add-on connection to the + terminals and try and chase this wire to the VSR, which will hopefully be next to the starter battery, but shouldn't be any further than between the starter battery and the EC160.
If you find the VSR, just disconnect it from the Starter battery and wire it to an Ignition controlled feed.


Note that the VSR might draw quite a few amps (in extreme circumstances) so choose your Ignition controlled source carefully, or maybe create a new one with a 50amp fuse?.


.





Edited by aandncaravan 2018-04-28 6:37 PM
userAlanb
Posted: 28 April 2018 7:17 PM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 
Epic contributor

Posts: 1182
1000100252525
Location: North Yorkshire


aandncaravan - 2018-04-28 6:22 PM

..........Trialsrider, Can I suggest you look on the Starter battery for a 'non manufacturer' add-on connection to the + terminals and try and chase this wire to the VSR, which will hopefully be next to the starter battery, but shouldn't be any further than between the starter battery and the EC160.
If you find the VSR, just disconnect it from the Starter battery and wire it to an Ignition controlled feed.


Note that the VSR might draw quite a few amps (in extreme circumstances) so choose your Ignition controlled source carefully, or maybe create a new one with a 50amp fuse?.



Allan.

Trialsrider has stated that there are only 2 wires (+ve & -ve) leaving the vehicle battery. I have therfore assumed that the VCR has been hidden in the hard to access area behind the EC160. I further assume/deduce that the VCR has not been used to switch the habitation battery charging current, but only to supply the SPLIT and EMC terminals of the EC160, which I believe are only low current control inputs. In this configuration I would expect the VB terminal of the EC160, to be looped in parallel with the vehicle batt +ve terminal of the VCR.

As regards your assertion that the VCR can draw several amps, -Yes likely when it is carrying the charging current for the habitation battery, but I hope not when only supplying the SPLIT and EMC inputs of the EC160, which is what I suspect it has been used for. If the VCR contacts are carrying the charging current, I would recommend that the circuit should be modified so that this does not happen.
Sargents recommended battery fuse rating is 15A.

(The simulated D+ circuitry for the CBE DS520 on my PVC is supplied via a dedicated 5A fuse which is adequate.)

Alan

Alan
useraandncaravan
Posted: 28 April 2018 8:15 PM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 
Forum master

Posts: 2265
20001001002525
Location: Conwy, North Wales


Alanb, yes you are right I am confusing the VSR function with it being used in this example as a simulated D+ and the usual role of Split charging, which as you rightly say will be handled by the Sargent box, but the solution still stands up, just doesn't need a high current feed.

The VSR is still most likely to be found wired to the Positive wire that runs between the Starter battery and the EC160, so should still be able to be located on that cable run and then given it's own Ignition controlled feed.
The access to the EC160 is a problem though.

Maybe the complete solution is to get an auto electrician (or ideally the converter who has created the issues) to make up adapter cables, with the appropriate Sargent Socket/Plug configuration, that will fit between the existing wiring and the EC160, in advance of removing the Sargent box.

That way the EC160 can be removed, the VSR issue attended to and the problem of zero cable length addressed at the same time.
Sargent should be able to supply all the information needed to make up the extender cables?

This approach of having everything ready in advance should reduce problems created by trying to extend the existing cables in an area where restricted access might lead to expensive mistakes.

It should also mean reduced loss of use of the Motorhome as the actual rectification time should be short, probably only an hour or two?.




Edited by aandncaravan 2018-04-28 8:30 PM
usertrialsrider
Posted: 10 May 2018 4:08 PM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 


A posting machine

Posts: 335
10010010025
Location: Cardiff - Peugeot Boxer X290 Ruddock Race Home


Update. The converter has suggested an option maybe to fit a switch on the dash which would be wired to the cable going from drive battery to Sargent unit. Once switched it could isolate the drive battery and the Sargent should switch on. So I guess it would not be switched on whilst driving as the split charge would not work. Once parked you could switch it on and the drive battery should be isolated.

So would this work ? It sounds plausible and maybe a solution which would not require a total rewiring of the electrics and the Sargent unit ? Not an ideal outcome but maybe better than what I have.
userKeithl
Posted: 10 May 2018 5:36 PM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 5989
5000500100100100100252525
Location: Birmingham. 2004 Auto-Trail Cheyenne Mercedes 313.


trialsrider - 2018-05-10 4:08 PM

Update. The converter has suggested an option maybe to fit a switch on the dash which would be wired to the cable going from drive battery to Sargent unit. Once switched it could isolate the drive battery and the Sargent should switch on. So I guess it would not be switched on whilst driving as the split charge would not work. Once parked you could switch it on and the drive battery should be isolated.

So would this work ? It sounds plausible and maybe a solution which would not require a total rewiring of the electrics and the Sargent unit ? Not an ideal outcome but maybe better than what I have.


I am assuming he plans to use this switch to control a relay in the main Positive feed from the Drive Battery to the Sargent PSU in which case I would prefer the switch to work 'the other way'. ie switch turned On when driving to connect drive battery to Sargent unit and Off when parked. This way the relay would only be powered On when the alternator was providing power.

If I have read what you described correctly the relay would be powered when you are parked and would probably result in a flat battery! You want as little quiescent drain when parked as possible!

Keith.

Edit to add: Why not control the new relay with an ignition fed live then you will have a totally automatic system as you originally wanted?
userAlanb
Posted: 10 May 2018 6:09 PM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 
Epic contributor

Posts: 1182
1000100252525
Location: North Yorkshire


Contrary to what Keith has understood, I think that the suggestion is for the switch to be wired directly into the positive connection from the vehicle battery.

(EDIT
I am not sure that the proposal will work. As I understand the current system the connection from the vehicle battery is routed to the VSR and the split charge input of the EC160 in parallel. When you stop the engine the split charge relay in the EC160 will be operated. I think that habitation battery will back feed through the split charge relay and appear at the input side of the VCR. This will remain operated until the habitation battery voltage drops to the VCR release point. Have I got this wrong?)

Sargent's specified rating for the vehicle battery circuit is 15A. This exceeds the rating of many switches intended for automotive use, which in the present era are usually used in conjunction with a relay for loads of this magnitude.

From thermal current ratings 1 sq mm cable could handle this load. The small extra resistance introduced by the extra cable run to from the switch and the switch contacts would have a considerable reducing effect on the habitation battery recharge current. Hence the driving time required to recharge this battery will be increased.

Also you will have to remember to set the switch to the charge position before driving. We are all human and can forget such items. While one solution is to use a checklist before driving, I would prefer a fully automatic system.

Alan

Edited by Alanb 2018-05-10 6:26 PM
usertrialsrider
Posted: 10 May 2018 7:53 PM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 


A posting machine

Posts: 335
10010010025
Location: Cardiff - Peugeot Boxer X290 Ruddock Race Home


Alanb - 2018-05-10 6:09 PM

Contrary to what Keith has understood, I think that the suggestion is for the switch to be wired directly into the positive connection from the vehicle battery.

(EDIT
I am not sure that the proposal will work. As I understand the current system the connection from the vehicle battery is routed to the VSR and the split charge input of the EC160 in parallel. When you stop the engine the split charge relay in the EC160 will be operated. I think that habitation battery will back feed through the split charge relay and appear at the input side of the VCR. This will remain operated until the habitation battery voltage drops to the VCR release point. Have I got this wrong?)

Sargent's specified rating for the vehicle battery circuit is 15A. This exceeds the rating of many switches intended for automotive use, which in the present era are usually used in conjunction with a relay for loads of this magnitude.

From thermal current ratings 1 sq mm cable could handle this load. The small extra resistance introduced by the extra cable run to from the switch and the switch contacts would have a considerable reducing effect on the habitation battery recharge current. Hence the driving time required to recharge this battery will be increased.

Also you will have to remember to set the switch to the charge position before driving. We are all human and can forget such items. While one solution is to use a checklist before driving, I would prefer a fully automatic system.

Alan


Sorry Alan. My level of electronics know how is way below yours and your baffling me. One thing I do agree with is that I would prefer an automatic system too. But that looks a timely and expensive option. Summer is here and I just want to go away in the van.

I don't think he has linked anything in parallel. Surely a toggle type switch that is either on or off connected to the positive feed of the drive battery to the Sargent unit would isolate the drive battery from the Motorhome electrics thus automatically switching on the Sargent? Or am I totally wrong ?
userKeithl
Posted: 10 May 2018 8:32 PM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 5989
5000500100100100100252525
Location: Birmingham. 2004 Auto-Trail Cheyenne Mercedes 313.


Alanb - 2018-05-10 6:09 PM

I am not sure that the proposal will work. As I understand the current system the connection from the vehicle battery is routed to the VSR and the split charge input of the EC160 in parallel. When you stop the engine the split charge relay in the EC160 will be operated. I think that habitation battery will back feed through the split charge relay and appear at the input side of the VCR. This will remain operated until the habitation battery voltage drops to the VCR release point.

Alan


Alan,

I agree with you!

It will not work for exactly the reasons you state, namely the habitation battery will 'back feed' through the Sargent PSU and hold the VSR in the On position and therefore the Sargent PSU will still think the engine is running.

Gareth,

Sorry but I do not think this idea will work. You either need to live with what you have or rip things apart and wire the VSR correctly with an ignition fed live.

Keith.

Edit to add: I'll try and do a couple of quick sketches tomorrow to demonstrate the problem.
usertrialsrider
Posted: 11 May 2018 5:10 AM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 


A posting machine

Posts: 335
10010010025
Location: Cardiff - Peugeot Boxer X290 Ruddock Race Home


Keithl - 2018-05-10 8:32 PM

Alanb - 2018-05-10 6:09 PM

I am not sure that the proposal will work. As I understand the current system the connection from the vehicle battery is routed to the VSR and the split charge input of the EC160 in parallel. When you stop the engine the split charge relay in the EC160 will be operated. I think that habitation battery will back feed through the split charge relay and appear at the input side of the VCR. This will remain operated until the habitation battery voltage drops to the VCR release point.

Alan




Alan,

I agree with you!

It will not work for exactly the reasons you state, namely the habitation battery will 'back feed' through the Sargent PSU and hold the VSR in the On position and therefore the Sargent PSU will still think the engine is running.

Gareth,

Sorry but I do not think this idea will work. You either need to live with what you have or rip things apart and wire the VSR correctly with an ignition fed live.

Keith.

Edit to add: I'll try and do a couple of quick sketches tomorrow to demonstrate the problem.


Thanks for the info. Yep it looks like there is no easy fix here.
userAlanb
Posted: 11 May 2018 9:01 AM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 
Epic contributor

Posts: 1182
1000100252525
Location: North Yorkshire


Having thought about it a bit more, I am begining to think that the modification proposed by the converter may even make matters worse!

Currently Gareth drives with headlights ON, and drops the battery voltage by switching the ignition ON again after stopping the engine. The load of the headlights and other electrics pulls the battery voltage down to the VCR release point fairly soon. With the proposed switch inserted the use of the ignition switch in this manner will no longer be available.

Alan
usertrialsrider
Posted: 11 May 2018 9:33 AM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 


A posting machine

Posts: 335
10010010025
Location: Cardiff - Peugeot Boxer X290 Ruddock Race Home


Alanb - 2018-05-11 9:01 AM

Having thought about it a bit more, I am begining to think that the modification proposed by the converter may even make matters worse!

Currently Gareth drives with headlights ON, and drops the battery voltage by switching the ignition ON again after stopping the engine. The load of the headlights and other electrics pulls the battery voltage down to the VCR release point fairly soon. With the proposed switch inserted the use of the ignition switch in this manner will no longer be available.

Alan


Sounds like a non starter then. But wouldn't a switch simply act as a means of breaking the circuit between van electrics and Motorhome electrics ? Would it not work in the same way as removing the positive and negative feed from the drive battery to the Sargent altogether? That way the only power going to the Sargent soul be from the solar/ leisure battery and mains hook up ?
userKeithl
Posted: 11 May 2018 9:50 AM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 5989
5000500100100100100252525
Location: Birmingham. 2004 Auto-Trail Cheyenne Mercedes 313.


There is actually an added complication and possible dangerous condition with the current setup which a manual disconnect switch could overcome.

If the engine was run for a length of time and then stopped the VSR would remain active and the starter and habitation batteries would remain coupled through the Sargent PSU. If the engine was then restarted it is very likely that part of the starter load would be pulled from the habitation battery through the Sargent PSU with damaging consequences. If the system is correctly fused then this would blow otherwise things may be more lively!

Adding a manual disconnect switch and always ensuring it was set to disconnect (I won't use On/Off for fear of confusion) would hopefully prevent any possibility of this happening.

I'm not sure if it adds further complications without overtaxing my already tired brain!!!

You could test what would happen if you where to add a disconnect switch by running the engine for a while then stopping it and either pulling the fuse on the positive feed at the starter battery (assuming it has one!) or disconnecting the wire if not.

Keith.
usertrialsrider
Posted: 11 May 2018 10:00 AM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 


A posting machine

Posts: 335
10010010025
Location: Cardiff - Peugeot Boxer X290 Ruddock Race Home


Keithl - 2018-05-11 9:50 AM

There is actually an added complication and possible dangerous condition with the current setup which a manual disconnect switch could overcome.

If the engine was run for a length of time and then stopped the VSR would remain active and the starter and habitation batteries would remain coupled through the Sargent PSU. If the engine was then restarted it is very likely that part of the starter load would be pulled from the habitation battery through the Sargent PSU with damaging consequences. If the system is correctly fused then this would blow otherwise things may be more lively!

Adding a manual disconnect switch and always ensuring it was set to disconnect (I won't use On/Off for fear of confusion) would hopefully prevent any possibility of this happening.

I'm not sure if it adds further complications without overtaxing my already tired brain!!!

You could test what would happen if you where to add a disconnect switch by running the engine for a while then stopping it and either pulling the fuse on the positive feed at the starter battery (assuming it has one!) or disconnecting the wire if not.

Keith.


I will investigate tomorrow. Thanks
usermikefitz
Posted: 11 May 2018 1:07 PM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 
Gets involved

Posts: 264
1001002525
Location: Silves, Portugal


Brief comment on VSRs. There are two types, the most common, senses the input voltage, in this case the engine battery, and switches on at 13v and a bit and drops out at a bit less than 13v. It does not care about the leisure battery voltage. The second type is less common and is bi directional sensing. This type will direct power either way. I suspect the former type is fitted in this application.

The proposed use of a switch in the engine battery feed to the Sargent may/will cause problems. As I understand things the Sargent needs a connection to the vehicle battery and a separate simulated D+.

Either accept the current limitations or take things apart and wire up correctly with a ign live control.

Mike

Edited by mikefitz 2018-05-11 1:19 PM
userAlanb
Posted: 11 May 2018 3:27 PM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 
Epic contributor

Posts: 1182
1000100252525
Location: North Yorkshire


mikefitz - 2018-05-11 1:07 PM

Brief comment on VSRs. There are two types, the most common, senses the input voltage, in this case the engine battery, and switches on at 13v and a bit and drops out at a bit less than 13v. It does not care about the leisure battery voltage. The second type is less common and is bi directional sensing. This type will direct power either way. I suspect the former type is fitted in this application.

The proposed use of a switch in the engine battery feed to the Sargent may/will cause problems. As I understand things the Sargent needs a connection to the vehicle battery and a separate simulated D+.

Either accept the current limitations or take things apart and wire up correctly with a ign live control.

Mike


Mike,

To be technical, I can understand the possibility of a bi directional VSR which has a pair of steering or blocking diodes connected to both batteries and to the control circuitry. However once the main contacts are closed, surely either battery will feed the VSR control circuitry, independant of VSR type?

One way of avoiding this back feeding with a conventional VSR would be to include a high current blocking diode in series with the contacts. This would then defeat the low voltage drop advantage of a VSR as well as making it unidirectional. You might just as well revert to a simple high current blocking diode.

Perhaps an alternative approach would be a solid state VSR with MOSFETs in the main power circuit?
However such a device, if it exists, would still have a higher voltage drop than a relay using metallic contacts.

I think that what exists in Gareth's vehicle is a conventional VSR, with the output controlling the split charge and EMC relays.

Alan
userAlanb
Posted: 11 May 2018 3:48 PM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 
Epic contributor

Posts: 1182
1000100252525
Location: North Yorkshire


Gareth,

In order to convince you converter and the rest of us that his suggestion, it may be worth trying the following test.

Run engine for several minutes so that both batteries are upto charging voltage,

Switch OFF engine.

Safely disconnect the connection from the vehicle battery to habitation electrics by removing the appropriate fuse.

If there is no fuse visible, do not continue, as the removed cable could still be live from the habitation battery. There is a risk of damage, fire, and getting burnt if such a live end was allowed to touch the wehicle body.

(The Sargent EC160 installation instructions clearly state that the connection to vehicle battery should be fused at 15A.)

With the fuse removed, switching on the ignition should have no effect, and you may not be able to switch the EC160 panel ON for some time.

Alan

usertrialsrider
Posted: 11 May 2018 5:46 PM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 


A posting machine

Posts: 335
10010010025
Location: Cardiff - Peugeot Boxer X290 Ruddock Race Home


Alanb - 2018-05-11 3:48 PM

Gareth,

In order to convince you converter and the rest of us that his suggestion, it may be worth trying the following test.

Run engine for several minutes so that both batteries are upto charging voltage,

Switch OFF engine.

Safely disconnect the connection from the vehicle battery to habitation electrics by removing the appropriate fuse.

If there is no fuse visible, do not continue, as the removed cable could still be live from the habitation battery. There is a risk of damage, fire, and getting burnt if such a live end was allowed to touch the wehicle body.

(The Sargent EC160 installation instructions clearly state that the connection to vehicle battery should be fused at 15A.)

With the fuse removed, switching on the ignition should have no effect, and you may not be able to switch the EC160 panel ON for some time.

Alan



Hi Alan

I understand the test procedure but what exactly is the hypothesis you are testing ?
userKeithl
Posted: 11 May 2018 5:51 PM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 5989
5000500100100100100252525
Location: Birmingham. 2004 Auto-Trail Cheyenne Mercedes 313.


trialsrider - 2018-05-11 5:46 PM

Alanb - 2018-05-11 3:48 PM

Gareth,

In order to convince you converter and the rest of us that his suggestion, it may be worth trying the following test.

Run engine for several minutes so that both batteries are upto charging voltage,

Switch OFF engine.

Safely disconnect the connection from the vehicle battery to habitation electrics by removing the appropriate fuse.

If there is no fuse visible, do not continue, as the removed cable could still be live from the habitation battery. There is a risk of damage, fire, and getting burnt if such a live end was allowed to touch the wehicle body.

(The Sargent EC160 installation instructions clearly state that the connection to vehicle battery should be fused at 15A.)

With the fuse removed, switching on the ignition should have no effect, and you may not be able to switch the EC160 panel ON for some time.

Alan



Hi Alan

I understand the test procedure but what exactly is the hypothesis you are testing ?


That as long as the voltage of the habitation battery remains above the lower threshold for the VSR (12.8 V?) the Sargent PSU will NOT switch on.
userAlanb
Posted: 11 May 2018 9:45 PM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 
Epic contributor

Posts: 1182
1000100252525
Location: North Yorkshire


Keithl - 2018-05-11 5:51 PM

trialsrider - 2018-05-11 5:46 PM

Alanb - 2018-05-11 3:48 PM

Gareth,

In order to convince you converter and the rest of us that his suggestion, it may be worth trying the following test.

Run engine for several minutes so that both batteries are upto charging voltage,

Switch OFF engine.

Safely disconnect the connection from the vehicle battery to habitation electrics by removing the appropriate fuse.

If there is no fuse visible, do not continue, as the removed cable could still be live from the habitation battery. There is a risk of damage, fire, and getting burnt if such a live end was allowed to touch the wehicle body.

(The Sargent EC160 installation instructions clearly state that the connection to vehicle battery should be fused at 15A.)

With the fuse removed, switching on the ignition should have no effect, and you may not be able to switch the EC160 panel ON for some time.

Alan



Hi Alan

I understand the test procedure but what exactly is the hypothesis you are testing ?


That as long as the voltage of the habitation battery remains above the lower threshold for the VSR (12.8 V?) the Sargent PSU will NOT switch on.



Thanks Keith for replying on my behalf. We are obviously in agreement.

Sorry Gareth, I have been rather busy this evening trying to identify a suitable replacement for the larger "Fir Tree Clips" that secure the wing liners of my 2006 X244 Fiat Ducato. Now that is a minefield!

Alan
usertrialsrider
Posted: 12 May 2018 2:04 PM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 


A posting machine

Posts: 335
10010010025
Location: Cardiff - Peugeot Boxer X290 Ruddock Race Home


Alanb - 2018-05-11 9:45 PM

Keithl - 2018-05-11 5:51 PM

trialsrider - 2018-05-11 5:46 PM

Alanb - 2018-05-11 3:48 PM

Gareth,

In order to convince you converter and the rest of us that his suggestion, it may be worth trying the following test.

Run engine for several minutes so that both batteries are upto charging voltage,

Switch OFF engine.

Safely disconnect the connection from the vehicle battery to habitation electrics by removing the appropriate fuse.

If there is no fuse visible, do not continue, as the removed cable could still be live from the habitation battery. There is a risk of damage, fire, and getting burnt if such a live end was allowed to touch the wehicle body.

(The Sargent EC160 installation instructions clearly state that the connection to vehicle battery should be fused at 15A.)

With the fuse removed, switching on the ignition should have no effect, and you may not be able to switch the EC160 panel ON for some time.

Alan



Hi Alan

I understand the test procedure but what exactly is the hypothesis you are testing ?


That as long as the voltage of the habitation battery remains above the lower threshold for the VSR (12.8 V?) the Sargent PSU will NOT switch on.



Thanks Keith for replying on my behalf. We are obviously in agreement.

Sorry Gareth, I have been rather busy this evening trying to identify a suitable replacement for the larger "Fir Tree Clips" that secure the wing liners of my 2006 X244 Fiat Ducato. Now that is a minefield!

Alan


Well I hope you got your van sorted.

Right I did your test. Thankfully there was an inline fuse off the positive drive battery feed. Engine was ran for a few minutes then switched off. Fuse removed. Sargent did not switch on. Just for the record I used the Sargent before the test to record voltages of both batteries. Leisure battery was 13.5v (thanks to the solar) and drive was 12.2v.

So bearing the above result on mind, what does this show. Keep it simple please. Thanks
userAlanb
Posted: 12 May 2018 3:51 PM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 
Epic contributor

Posts: 1182
1000100252525
Location: North Yorkshire


It proves that your converters proposed switch in the vehicle battery +ve connection, would not solve your problem.

Alan
usertrialsrider
Posted: 12 May 2018 6:42 PM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 


A posting machine

Posts: 335
10010010025
Location: Cardiff - Peugeot Boxer X290 Ruddock Race Home


Alanb - 2018-05-12 3:51 PM

It proves that your converters proposed switch in the vehicle battery +ve connection, would not solve your problem.

Alan


Ok. I totally understand that.

So my next question is whether I could do away with the split charge completely thus removing the two wires feeding the Sargent from the drive battery ? I've got a 100w solar panel on the roof and obviously hook up too . If I removed power to the Sargent from the drivebattery and relied soley on 240v and solar for input power would the Sargent remain on ? My fridge is a low drain dometic crx50 compressor fridge so I'm not concerned about the fridge flattening the battery even whilst driving.
userKeithl
Posted: 12 May 2018 7:22 PM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 5989
5000500100100100100252525
Location: Birmingham. 2004 Auto-Trail Cheyenne Mercedes 313.


trialsrider - 2018-05-12 6:42 PM

So my next question is whether I could do away with the split charge completely thus removing the two wires feeding the Sargent from the drive battery ?


It depends on whether the Sargent PSU will work without 12 V to it's main inputs!

Without starting the engine and making sure the VSR is disconnected, remove the fuse at your starter battery and then try turning the Sargent PSU on.

If it will not come to life then it will need re-wiring with your leisure battery as its main input, if it does come to life then you may be lucky but I would still either read the manual or contact Sargent Electrical to ask if this is acceptable.

Keith.

PS And it sounds as though your Solar is actually compounding your current problem in that it is holding your leisure battery above the drop out voltage for the VSR hence the VSR is never switching off and the Sargent will not then switch on!
useraandncaravan
Posted: 12 May 2018 8:07 PM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 
Forum master

Posts: 2265
20001001002525
Location: Conwy, North Wales


Yes you can remove the Starter battery feed to the Sargent, but you will loose Alternator charging and with an absorption Fridge, lose 12v Fridge powered running from the Alternator.

You are right the CRX50 is a low power consumption Fridge for a compressor unit, but still uses 36Ah a day average. A bit more if the interior of the vehicle is hot.
That will be a big chunk of your Solar Power in mid summer.
Between September and the end of March the fridge will probably draw more power than the solar can put back.
Expect as little as 4Ah a day Solar charge in mid winter when even 3 x 100 watt panels probably won't be enough to supply half your needs?

From what I can tell that power consumption is in Fridge mode only, I think even more power will be used if you operate the Freezer as well.



If your lights, heating, TV, phone charging, etc draw an additional 20Ah a night you can see that you are going to struggle even with the help of Alternator charging.


Depending on when/where you intend to holiday (obviously the further South you go the more Solar power you will harvest) you might need the option for the engine to top up the battery to prevent it being damaged by over discharge.
Alternator charging is useful on site when the battery is low, to temporarily boost it.



I think your only option is to get this install done as Sargent say it should be.
If you have no faith in your converter try a good local auto Sparky.


May we suggest that if you intend to use the vehicle outside the prime summer months, that you consider fitting a battery protection device that will disconnect the Fridge at about 12.1v to protect the battery from over discharge and damage.



Edited by aandncaravan 2018-05-12 8:31 PM
userAlanb
Posted: 12 May 2018 8:14 PM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 
Epic contributor

Posts: 1182
1000100252525
Location: North Yorkshire


Keithl - 2018-05-12 7:22

It depends on whether the Sargent PSU will work without 12 V to it's main inputs!

Without starting the engine and making sure the VSR is disconnected, remove the fuse at your starter battery and then try turning the Sargent PSU on.

If it will not come to life then it will need re-wiring with your leisure battery as its main input, if it does come to life then you may be lucky but I would still either read the manual or contact Sargent Electrical to ask if this is acceptable.

Keith.

PS And it sounds as though your Solar is actually compounding your current problem in that it is holding your leisure battery above the drop out voltage for the VSR hence the VSR is never switching off and the Sargent will not then switch on!



In general I agree with Keith, but it may be necessary to pull down the battery voltage before testing, by going back to square one, and switching on the ignition plus headlights, so that the VSR switches OFF.

I think it most likely that the EC160 takes its power suply from the habitation battery, so it will probably work without the vehicle battery connection, but then you are limited to sunny days and / or EHU.

Not likely that Sargent will encourage this mode of operation, as the EMC function will not be supported.

Alan
usertrialsrider
Posted: 12 May 2018 8:30 PM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 


A posting machine

Posts: 335
10010010025
Location: Cardiff - Peugeot Boxer X290 Ruddock Race Home


Alanb - 2018-05-12 8:14 PM

Keithl - 2018-05-12 7:22

It depends on whether the Sargent PSU will work without 12 V to it's main inputs!

Without starting the engine and making sure the VSR is disconnected, remove the fuse at your starter battery and then try turning the Sargent PSU on.

If it will not come to life then it will need re-wiring with your leisure battery as its main input, if it does come to life then you may be lucky but I would still either read the manual or contact Sargent Electrical to ask if this is acceptable.

Keith.

PS And it sounds as though your Solar is actually compounding your current problem in that it is holding your leisure battery above the drop out voltage for the VSR hence the VSR is never switching off and the Sargent will not then switch on!



In general I agree with Keith, but it may be necessary to pull down the battery voltage before testing, by going back to square one, and switching on the ignition plus headlights, so that the VSR switches OFF.

I think it most likely that the EC160 takes its power suply from the habitation battery, so it will probably work without the vehicle battery connection, but then you are limited to sunny days and / or EHU.

Not likely that Sargent will encourage this mode of operation, as the EMC function will not be supported.

Alan


Am I right in thinking that if I pull down the battery voltage and thus switch off the vsr, then disconnect the battery feed from the drive battery to the Sargent, then the vsr will stay off regardless of what happens on the habitation side of the circuitry ?
userAlanb
Posted: 12 May 2018 9:37 PM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 
Epic contributor

Posts: 1182
1000100252525
Location: North Yorkshire


That is what I would expect, but testing will provide the proof.

Alan
userA900ss
Posted: 18 October 2021 12:04 PM
Subject: RE: Citroen Relay and Sargent Ec160 Power Unit
 
Just joined

Posts: 16

Location: Mercedes Sprinter Camper-van


trialsrider - 2018-05-12 6:42 PM

So my next question is whether I could do away with the split charge completely thus removing the two wires feeding the Sargent from the drive battery ?

I know this is an old thread but I also have a Sargent EC160 and reading this thread might help me with my slow charging from the alternator.

Does the Sargent still work if the VB positive cable is disconnected from the back of it?

It will still have the LB positive cable from the leisure battery and the GND cable connected.

My intention would then to fit a battery to battery charger that goes directly to the leisure battery and not via the VB input on the Sargent EC160. This would also mean I am not putting high amps from the battery to battery charger through the Sargent on the way to the leisure battery.

As stated in a previous post, I am not an electrician and would pay an installer to do this work for me. I just want an understanding of what is going on to improve my learning.

Thanks in advance.
Jump to page : FirstPrevious 1 2 Last
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread
Jump to forum :


(Delete all cookies set by this site)(Return to Homepage)

Any problems? Contact the administrator