trialsrider Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 Hi there I've had a Citroen relay 2014 2.2L swb converted into a camper van. It has a Sargent ec160 power unit. The problem I have is that the Sargent unit will only switch on when the ignition is switched on. Once it is on the ignition can be switched off and the Sargent stays on. When the van is started the Sargent correctly switches off but does not automatically switch on when the engine is stopped. I then have to switch the ignition on again for the Sargent to switch on. I've had a look at my drive battery and the converter has taken the positive and negative feed straight from there. He hasn't found the d+ wherever that may be on my van. What I want to know is how can I rectify this so the unit switches on automatically when the engine is stopped as it should do. Is this because the d+ has not been found ? Also where is the d+ to be found in the wiring? Your help would be appreciated. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 Hi Gareth, Has the converter possibly used a 'Voltage sensing relay' rather than a D+ powered relay? This would switch on when the alternator started charging and the voltage at the engine battery increased above a set value (possibly >13 V?) and only disconnect when the battery voltage fell back below a lower figure (eg 12.5 V). Try following the wiring from the engine battery and see if you can find a relay of any kind. Or after turning off the engine, turn on the headlights to force the engine battery voltage to fall. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancepar Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 Plus....... The d+ usually refers to the D+ terminal on the alternator as a starting point if this was part of your original question. . B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted April 23, 2018 Author Share Posted April 23, 2018 Keithl - 2018-04-23 6:51 PM Hi Gareth, Has the converter possibly used a 'Voltage sensing relay' rather than a D+ powered relay? This would switch on when the alternator started charging and the voltage at the engine battery increased above a set value (possibly >13 V?) and only disconnect when the battery voltage fell back below a lower figure (eg 12.5 V). Try following the wiring from the engine battery and see if you can find a relay of any kind. Or after turning off the engine, turn on the headlights to force the engine battery voltage to fall. Keith. Hi Keith The ec160 apparently has a built in split charge relay. The van is wired straight from drive battery positive and negative terminals to the unit. I drive with lights on permanently anyway. I'm sure it is because the converter has not wired it correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 Hi Gareth, You have set quite a tricky question here. You claim that the converter has failed to connect to the D+ point on the vehicle. So what is connected to the EMC and SPLIT terminals of the EC160? From a specification for the EC160, I note that the above split charge and emc functions are "configurable". This suggests that there may be some adjustable links inside the EC160. From your description it seems that an ignition controlled supply is used to enable the ON/OFF switch on the EC160, but that the ON state is maintained internally, possibly via a D+ connection. What else could switch the EC160 OFF as you describe when the engine is started? It may be that a carefull look inside the EC160 will reveal the "configuration" mechanism. PLEASE DO DISCONNECT BOTH BATTERY NEGATIVE TERMINALS FIRST Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 Hi Gareth, After reviewing my post above may I pose a further question for you to consider? In your original post you state that you have to switch the ignition ON in order to switch the EC160 ON. Publicshed pictures of the E160 do not show a terminal labelled IGN or similar, so how is the IGNITION ON wire connected into the EC160? Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted April 24, 2018 Author Share Posted April 24, 2018 Alanb - 2018-04-23 10:39 PM Hi Gareth, You have set quite a tricky question here. You claim that the converter has failed to connect to the D+ point on the vehicle. So what is connected to the EMC and SPLIT terminals of the EC160? From a specification for the EC160, I note that the above split charge and emc functions are "configurable". This suggests that there may be some adjustable links inside the EC160. From your description it seems that an ignition controlled supply is used to enable the ON/OFF switch on the EC160, but that the ON state is maintained internally, possibly via a D+ connection. What else could switch the EC160 OFF as you describe when the engine is started? It may be that a carefull look inside the EC160 will reveal the "configuration" mechanism. PLEASE DO DISCONNECT BOTH BATTERY NEGATIVE TERMINALS FIRST Alan Hi Alan The problem I have also is that the ec160 unit was fitted and then wired at the back once in situ. The rest of the unit was then built around it. The problem is that there is no slack in the cables at the back to pull the ec160 out from its housing. The company who fitted the solar told me this and the converter confirmed it when I asked him yesterday. So unless I pull the unit apart I have no means of seeing what is in the back of the unit. Nightmare!! What I do know for definite is that the only wiring going from the vans electrics to ec160 are the positive and negative feed from the drive battery. This also acts as the split charge lead. I was hoping that the situation could be remedied by connecting the d+ to these visible wires coming from the drive battery ? Is the unit switching itself off correctly because it recognises an increase in voltage at the drive battery when the engine starts ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 Gareth, If there are only one each Positive and Negative wires going to the Sargent unit then I suspect, as I previously posted, that the converter has 'created' a D+ signal by using a Voltage Sensing Relay. Try this test exactly step by step... 1. Run engine for 2 minutes and ensure Sargent unit switches ON 2. Switch off engine and verify Sargent remains ON 3. Turn on headlights and wait for Sargent unit to turn OFF As an added benefit can you monitor your Engine battery voltage with a multi meter or the Sargent panel while conducting the above please. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted April 24, 2018 Author Share Posted April 24, 2018 Keithl - 2018-04-24 12:10 PM Gareth, If there are only one each Positive and Negative wires going to the Sargent unit then I suspect, as I previously posted, that the converter has 'created' a D+ signal by using a Voltage Sensing Relay. Try this test exactly step by step... 1. Run engine for 2 minutes and ensure Sargent unit switches ON 2. Switch off engine and verify Sargent remains ON 3. Turn on headlights and wait for Sargent unit to turn OFF As an added benefit can you monitor your Engine battery voltage with a multi meter or the Sargent panel while conducting the above please. Keith. Hi there I think there may be some confusion here as I wont be able to do the first two steps of your test. On step 1 if I run the engine the Sargent will definitely switch off not on. On step 2 if I switch off the engine the Sargent will definitely switch off not remain on. Bit confused sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted April 24, 2018 Author Share Posted April 24, 2018 Alanb - 2018-04-24 10:12 AM Hi Gareth, After reviewing my post above may I pose a further question for you to consider? In your original post you state that you have to switch the ignition ON in order to switch the EC160 ON. Publicshed pictures of the E160 do not show a terminal labelled IGN or similar, so how is the IGNITION ON wire connected into the EC160? Alan I have no idea to be honest. All I know is when I turn the ignition on, my ec160 then kicks into life and will stay on until the engine is started. Once the ec160 is on, I turn the ignition off and the ec160 stays on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 ............ I was hoping that the situation could be remedied by connecting the d+ to these visible wires coming from the drive battery ? Is the unit switching itself off correctly because it recognises an increase in voltage at the drive battery when the engine starts ? 1, NO !!!!!!! That is a non starter. The D+ terminal is the alternator field connection and takes the output of the voltage regulator to control the vehicle nominal 12V supply. If you connect this terminal to a 12V supply, there will be no control of the alternator output, which will then only be dependant on engine speed and could rise to levels that would damage the vehicle. Possible damage to ecu etc, as well as cooking the battery. (I would not advise connecting more than two relay colls to D+.) 2. It is possible that a distribution board can switch itself off, but I have read nothing to suggest that the EC160 is made that way.. If the tests suggested by Keith do not reveal anything, you seem to have three choices a. Do nothing and live with it. b. Take the unit apart to access the EC160, and find out how has been connected. c. Take vehicle to your converter to get it fixed. Probably expensive. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted April 24, 2018 Author Share Posted April 24, 2018 Alanb - 2018-04-24 1:02 PM ............ I was hoping that the situation could be remedied by connecting the d+ to these visible wires coming from the drive battery ? Is the unit switching itself off correctly because it recognises an increase in voltage at the drive battery when the engine starts ? 1, NO !!!!!!! That is a non starter. The D+ terminal is the alternator field connection and takes the output of the voltage regulator to control the vehicle nominal 12V supply. If you connect this terminal to a 12V supply, there will be no control of the alternator output, which will then only be dependant on engine speed and could rise to levels that would damage the vehicle. Possible damage to ecu etc, as well as cooking the battery. (I would not advise connecting more than two relay colls to D+.) 2. It is possible that a distribution board can switch itself off, but I have read nothing to suggest that the EC160 is made that way.. If the tests suggested by Keith do not reveal anything, you seem to have three choices a. Do nothing and live with it. b. Take the unit apart to access the EC160, and find out how has been connected. c. Take vehicle to your converter to get it fixed. Probably expensive. Alan Thanks for that Alan. I think option a is the most likely option but i am concerned about resale issues with this problem. Out of interest what will Keith test prove ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 I think we are all totally confused now as to what is working and not working! And sorry if I confused things above when I got On and Off mixed up!!! To summarise as I understand your posts above: If you enter your MH the Sargent is Off You then have to turn the ignition on then off to get the Sargent to turn On If you start the engine the Sargent turns Off When you stop the engine the Sargent remains Off You have to switch the ignition back on and off to get the Sargent to switch On again My test above was to see if your installer had possibly used a VSR but that now seems unlikely. Can you ask the converter what he has wired to the D+ terminal on the Sargent unit? Please can you 100% confirm that you ONLY have the main Positive and Negative cables going to the Sargent unit. And finally do you have a leisure battery as well as your starter battery or are you running solely on the starter battery? We'll get there in the end!!! Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted April 24, 2018 Author Share Posted April 24, 2018 Keithl - 2018-04-24 2:26 PM I think we are all totally confused now as to what is working and not working! And sorry if I confused things above when I got On and Off mixed up!!! To summarise as I understand your posts above: If you enter your MH the Sargent is Off You then have to turn the ignition on then off to get the Sargent to turn On If you start the engine the Sargent turns Off When you stop the engine the Sargent remains Off You have to switch the ignition back on and off to get the Sargent to switch On again My test above was to see if your installer had possibly used a VSR but that now seems unlikely. Can you ask the converter what he has wired to the D+ terminal on the Sargent unit? Please can you 100% confirm that you ONLY have the main Positive and Negative cables going to the Sargent unit. And finally do you have a leisure battery as well as your starter battery or are you running solely on the starter battery? We'll get there in the end!!! Keith. Keith That is exactly right how you describe my Sargent behaving. Yes I do have a leisure battery. Solar panel wired to this via charge controller and not through ec160. When i asked the converter yesterday about the d+ input at the back he said there wasn't one but perhaps he didn't know what he was looking for. He actually had a ec160 in front of him when talking to me. He only usually converts t5 and t6 vw vans and this set up has been trouble free on those and that is why he uses the Sargent because he connects straight from the drive battery to the ec160 without any d+. Does this help paint a clearer picture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 Hi Gareth, Now I am getting confused. I had perhaps incorrectly understood the following sequence when switching ON the EC160. 1. Turn ON ignition. 2, Turn ON EC160, which remains ON. 3. Turn OFF ignition. EC160 remains ON. Your reply to Keith suggests that step 2 does not apply. Looking at Sargents DIY Installation instructions for the EC160, they clearly state that a D+ connection is required at the SPLIT terminal to enable the split charge facility. The EMS terminal also requires a D+ connection to enable the EMS facility. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 Sorry Gareth but I'm fresh out of ideas at the moment! Whatever is happening is probably totally logical once you understand why, but in the meantime... My only remaining suggestion would be to contact Sargent Electrical and ask if they can offer help... https://sargentltd.co.uk/contact Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted April 25, 2018 Author Share Posted April 25, 2018 Thanks for all your advice. I've spoken to Sargent a few times over last few weeks and also a mobile motor electrics guy and everyone has said I need to get the panel out. Maybe that's a job for the winter but for now I think ill just put up with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted April 25, 2018 Author Share Posted April 25, 2018 Update. Don't know whether this helps find an answer to problem but spoke to the converter today and he now remembers adding a voltage sensitive relay to the circuit between drive battery and Sargent unit. I'm wondering if this could be the issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 trialsrider - 2018-04-25 8:30 PM Update. Don't know whether this helps find an answer to problem but spoke to the converter today and he now remembers adding a voltage sensitive relay to the circuit between drive battery and Sargent unit. I'm wondering if this could be the issue? YES! Exactly as I predicted in my first post! This means the 'simulated' D+ signal from the VSR will stay 'Live' until the starter battery voltage falls back below the lower switching value. This can be several minutes or even hours after the alternator stops supplying charge. I suggest you find an electrical engineer who can remove this VSR and supply the Sargent with a true D+ signal. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted April 26, 2018 Author Share Posted April 26, 2018 Keithl - 2018-04-25 8:53 PM trialsrider - 2018-04-25 8:30 PM Update. Don't know whether this helps find an answer to problem but spoke to the converter today and he now remembers adding a voltage sensitive relay to the circuit between drive battery and Sargent unit. I'm wondering if this could be the issue? YES! Exactly as I predicted in my first post! This means the 'simulated' D+ signal from the VSR will stay 'Live' until the starter battery voltage falls back below the lower switching value. This can be several minutes or even hours after the alternator stops supplying charge. I suggest you find an electrical engineer who can remove this VSR and supply the Sargent with a true D+ signal. Keith. Thanks Keith I think we could be getting somewhere now. I will try your test with the headlights and see if anything happens. Will let you know. Do you think this could be remedied without going to the back of the Sargent ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted April 26, 2018 Author Share Posted April 26, 2018 Also would just removing the vsr remedy the situation without finding the d+ ? I realize this may leave the conversion electrics live whilst driving which is possibly illegal but would it keep the Sargent on ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted April 26, 2018 Author Share Posted April 26, 2018 Update Sargent switched on. Started van. Sargent switches off. Van engine stopped. Sargent not on. Lights put on full beam and Sargent switched on and stayed on. So is the fault the vsr ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 Yes it does seem to be causing your trouble. A VSR will switch On at a relatively high voltage (eg a Sterling Power unit is set to 13.3 V) then switch Off at a lower voltage (eg below 12.8 V). So when you start the engine the alternator output voltage rises above 13.3 V and the VSR switches On. The converter seems to have wired the output from the VSR to the D+ input on the Sargent unit hence the Sargent switches Off as it receives the 'simulated' D+ signal. Then when you turn the engine Off the battery voltage takes a while to fall below 12.8 V and turn off the VSR. By turning on the headlights you forced the voltage to fall below 12.8 V faster than normal. You will either have to live with it or find the VSR and get it replaced with a true D+ feed. Keith. PS If you connect a voltmeter across the starter battery you should be able to see the above happening and possibly hear the 'click' of the VSR as it changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 Keith, Gareth, Top marks to Keith for deducing the presence of the VCR It would seem that the output of the VCR may be connected to the SPLIT, and EMC terminals of the EC160 in parallel. For the system to work the vehicle battery terminal (VB) of the EC160 would have to be connected to the input (vehicle battery terminal) of the VCR. As Gareth has stated that he drives with headlights ON, turning the ignition ON will add a considerable load to the vehicle battery which causes the voltage to drop sufficiently for the VCR to release. Unfortunately I do not see how the system can be modified without gaining access to the EC160. The simplest solution as Gareth suggests, would be to remove the connection to the EMC terminal. However if the EMC function is to be maintained, and using the D+ connection is not a viable option, a connection from an ignition controlled supply could be used. Not perfect as the EC160 would switch OFF whenever the ignition was switched ON. [Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 Question from a non-techy onlooker.... So has this actually all been wired up "correctly" then.....and working as "it should"..? ...or is this additional "VCR"(which the converter "now remembers adding") a bit of work-around?... :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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