P_Dodd Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 When my 2016 motorhome had its vehicle service last year, there was a note on the paperwork saying that it would be due to have its engine cam belt replaced this year when it becomes 5 years old. I asked how much it would cost and they quoted £550. The Motorhome has only done 18000 miles and is now due it’s 5 year service. I realise that it is a rubber belt that could deteriorate over time, but it hasn’t had much use. Are there any experts out there that can give me their opinion of whether this is necessary or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gman Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 Funny that, I've just booked mine in for a belt, pulley, and pump change at my local garage next Monday., includes a new aux belt too, £585.00 Not cheap but cheaper than a new engine. circa £3500. Existing belt has done less than 10k in five years. Better safe than skint. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamRienza Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 My 2016 Hymer on a Fiat engine has 37,000 miles and has just recently had timing belt and supplementary belts, pulleys and water pump changed. 5 years which is the recommended time interval irrespective of miles. I also factored in that whilst the van is registered 2016, it was a 2015 model with a possible engine build of 2014. It only did 3,500 miles in 2020 so it was a no brainier for me. I do, though tend to be a bit OCD about timing belts on all my vehicles, together with tyre condition and keeping mud from accumulating on the flange of the body panels where they meet the wheel arches. Davy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DickB Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 I am happy to be proved wrong, but I understand that Ducato 2.3 engnes need only the cam belt to be changed and not any ancillaries. Some engines definitely need water pump etc to be changed with the cam belt, but apparently not this one? Dick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gman Posted April 7, 2021 Share Posted April 7, 2021 The price of a water pump against a new engine is peanuts, can you afford a new engine against the cost of a new pump? I certainly can't afford to take that risk. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamRienza Posted April 7, 2021 Share Posted April 7, 2021 My water pump had some distortion in its alignment and was making noise when inspected after removal. It was the original and had not been subjected to any adjustment in its 37,000 miles nor had the van been mistreated. It had in all previous years been serviced by the main Hymer agent in Ireland who are also a Fiat professional franchise. This service was carried out by my local independent who services our 3 cars. Lockdown precluded a 100 mile cross border trip to the Hymer dealer. I also did not fancy a full service, timing belt change, habitation and damp check at main dealer prices. It is possible that my pump was inherently faulty, but fortunately opting for the change revealed the weakness. Davy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 7, 2021 Share Posted April 7, 2021 DickB - 2021-04-06 11:25 PM I am happy to be proved wrong, but I understand that Ducato 2.3 engnes need only the cam belt to be changed and not any ancillaries. Some engines definitely need water pump etc to be changed with the cam belt, but apparently not this one? Dick Historically, it was common practice when a timing-belt was being replaced to change the water-pump at the same time. Unlike the timing-belt fitted to the 2.3litre motor used in Ducatos built from mid-2006 onwards, the water-pump is not ‘lifed’ by distance travelled or age and - in principle at least - the original pump could remain in place for the life of the Ducato vehicle. Nick Fisher (euroserv) advised on Ducato timing-belt and water-pump replacement in this 2015 forum discussion. https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/cambelt-change-how-often-and-when-/39227/ and this late-2019 thread also dealt with the subject. https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Ducato-Engine-Cam-Belt/57933/#M687079 In this very recent thread https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Service-and-habitation-check-/57919/ I highlighted the difference in cost between Fiat-branded parts and ‘pattern’ equivalents. In the two 2020 estimates I referred to the (VAT-inc) quoted price of the Fiat-branded water-pump was £184.50 and £65.78 for the non-Fiat-branded pump. My understanding is that replacing the water-pump on the 2.3litre motor is not a quick task due to its inaccessibility. Consequently, when the timing-belt is being changed (and even if there’s no evidence of the water-pump being problematical) it could be argued that changing the pump too makes sense as the labour-charge alone for a later pump replacement would exceed the cost of a (pattern) pump being fitted when the timing-belt replacement work was done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninian Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 Hi, Just had this reply from my local Fiat Dealership in N. Ireland. Does the price seem excessive. The timing belt comes as part of a kit (inc water pump, approximate cost £899-£949). We highly recommended replacing the full kit as the water pump moves when removing the Timing belt. This can cause a coolant leak which may require a new replacement water pump (and belt if contaminated). I can replace the timing belt if you require, but you would need to sign a full disclaimer regarding any future coolant leak and any issue that it may have on the engine overheating. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamRienza Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 I am based in N. Ireland and had my belts, pump and pulleys etc replaced by a small local garage. Cost was £560. I also had a service completed which included greasing the ALKO rear axle, battery tests, brake fluid and headlight alignment which was £260 making a total of £820. They also replaced the large metal coolant pipe coming off the oil cooler which was showing signs of weep at a secondary joint on the metal. It is a Hymer A class so not the most accessible engine to work at. I had until now had service, habitation and damp checks done by the main dealer to maintain warranties (2016 reg but 2015 model), however the thought of additional timing belt was giving me concerns over total cost. The decision to go local was made easier by the current movement restrictions. Davy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 How on earth does the water pump move when replacing the timing belt unless it's mounting bolts are loosened or removed, which they shouldn't be for a simple belt change unless the intention from the outset is also to change the pump? Fiat supply two timing belt kits, one including the water pump and one without. If it was considered absolutely necessary to replace the water pump at every timing belt change irrespective of its condition, why would they supply the option of a belt kit that doesn't include it? I have just changed my timing belt at 4.5 years and 17,000 miles. I checked the water pump for signs of even the tiniest leak, roughness or play in its bearings, of which there were none, and decided to leave well alone. I will probably replace it at the next timing belt change as a matter of course, as it will then be 9-10 years old and by that time likely more prudent to do so. I did not find the timing belt change a difficult job with the right tools, and completed it with the van on axle stands on my driveway. If the pump was to fail between this change and the next, I wouldn't consider it a major inconvenience to replace it, as I have dealt with plenty of more difficult and time consuming jobs, and I wouldn't consider it a major financial hit either. I paid £109.86 for a genuine Fiat timing belt kit (less water pump) and a further £109.77 for an aircon belt, auxiliary belt and aux pulleys (all of which are Dayco parts when you open the Fiat boxes anyway). But of course if you are paying main dealer labour charges then I suppose you could consider it prudent to replace the water pump as a matter of course if you are looking at £900 to £1400 (as I have seen quoted by some main dealers) a time for parts and labour! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 Ninian - 2021-04-09 12:05 PM Hi, Just had this reply from my local Fiat Dealership in N. Ireland. Does the price seem excessive?.. In this recent forum thread https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Service-and-habitation-check-/57919/ I said In March 2020 I was given two estimates for a timing belt and water-pump change. One estimate was £854.54 (Fiat parts) and the other was £604.54 (pattern parts). The labour charge in both cases was £351. (All prices VAT inc) The estimates were provided by a Fiat Professional agency, so if the ‘full kit’ you mentioned comprises all Fiat-branded parts your £899-£949 quote may well be par for the course. But if the kit includes some non-Fiat-branded parts, then the quote is high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 Derek Uzzell - 2021-04-09 2:19 PM The estimates were provided by a Fiat Professional agency, so if the ‘full kit’ you mentioned comprises all Fiat-branded parts your £899-£949 quote may well be par for the course. But if the kit includes some non-Fiat-branded parts, then the quote is high. The question is though, what is a Fiat branded part? As with all other vehicle manufacturers, Fiat don't actually make these components, they are bought in from external suppliers who contract to produce them to the required specification. As I mentioned above, the only Fiat branding on the timing belt kit (and the ancillary pulleys) is on the cardboard boxes that they are supplied in. Whilst Fiat may well have more than one supplier under contract (to provide some resilience in case of interruptions or other issues with a single supplier) the parts in the Fiat boxes obtained from my main dealer were all made by Dayco, as were the identical parts that I removed from my van and originally fitted at the Sevel plant during its manufacture. Several years ago I went to a Ford dealer's parts counter to ask for a rear wheel bearing assembly for my Mondeo. On opening the FoMoCo box that was placed in front of me on the counter, I could see that the component was manufactured by GKN. Ford wanted slightly less than £200 for the part as I recall. I then popped into the local motor factors, coincidentally just across the road from the Ford dealer, and asked for the same part. They gave me an identical part made by GKN, but in a cardboard box with GKN printed on it instead of FoMoCo. It cost me about £80. Admittedly there are some cheap pattern parts suppliers, some of whom may be cheap for a reason, as well as counterfeit products shipped mainly from the Far East, but if you stick to reputable brands from reputable businesses, there may be very little difference other than the packaging, and often the cost! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don636 Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 I had my timing belt changed last year with the van at six years old at a cost of £470 at my local Fiat dealership. They advised that it was not necessary to change the water pump at 21,000 miles as there was no sign of wear or leaks so I was happy to go along with that. Like Deneb I will probably get it changed with the next timing belt assuming I still have the van at around 11 years old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 Deneb - 2021-04-09 2:42 PM The question is though, what is a Fiat branded part? A fair question... All I can say is that, on the two estimates I mentioned, the expensive one had most of the Part Numbers beginning “FI” and the cheaper one had most of the Part Numbers beginning “ZP”. In both cases a couple of the parts (2 sealing gaskets) had a “FI” number and the more expensive estimate included “Paraflu” coolant (£46.92 VAT Inc) whereas the cheaper estimate just listed “Liquid coolant” (£14.66 VAT Inc) Plainly there’s an element of trust that a service-centre won’t quote for genuine parts which are of "Original Equipment" (OE) quality standard and then use much cheaper ‘pattern’ parts, but if one service-centre quotes a very inexpensive price when others are quoting much more, it’s worth asking what the former will be doing and what parts will be used. (I’m sure I remember someone on this forum once saying that, in Spain, they had had a 2nd-year 'full service' carried out on a 2-years-old Ducato motorhome and the overall cost was less than what I would have expected the cost of the parts and fluids alone would have been.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roryboy Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 Just before lockdown the cambelt and water pump change on my Ducato engine was £215 for parts and £160 for labour + vat. This was at a local Commercial Vehicle garage. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haybob Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 Hi got my 2014, 2.3 Ducato timing belt, auxillary belt and water pump changed July 2020 - it had 17000 miles on the clock. Local dealer in East Yorkshire £436.77. Had one quote for over £1000! at a main dealers. All working well so really pleased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooster63 Posted April 11, 2021 Share Posted April 11, 2021 When I bought my 8 year old Ducato based van the dealer changed the timing belt and did the water pump as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlowers Posted April 11, 2021 Share Posted April 11, 2021 Had 2004 ducato belt timing and auxiliary belt plus new tensioner fitted last week at local garage. Vehicle 56k miles so had done as precaution because no history of previous change. They inspected water pump and reported that it was fine and no need to replace. Cost £330. Looking at these posts, feel it was a very competitive price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 I don’t think you’ve ever said which motor your 2004 SEA Sloop 5 has, but this may well be relevant to the £330 cost of the belt-change, as may the fact that your motorhome is left-hand drive. I’m reasonably sure that (even when the age of the Ducato was not provided) the vehicle being referred to in earlier postings on this thread was an X250/X290 model built after mid-2006,, when there was a major redesign accompanied by a general revision of the powerplants used - whereas your 2004 Ducato is an X244 model. This 2010/2012 Fiat Forum thread discuussed replacng the timing-belt of a 2003 Ducato that had a 2.8JTD motor https://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/218539-2-8-jtd-timing-belt-replacement.html and it was pointed out that the same task for the 2.3JTD motor that was also used for Ducato at that time was more complicated. More effort/time may be required if (say) the vehicle has cab air-con, and a timing-belt ‘kit’ that will include tensioners (etc) wiill be more expensive than just the belt alone. There are many variables that impact on the cost of a Ducato timing-belt replacement and (as Haybob mentioned above) estimates for carrying out the work can vary significantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 According to Fiat workshop instructions, a substantial amount of dismantling is required before even accessing the timing belt, including removal of the front bumper, grille, headlights, upper crossmember/slam panel, windscreen washer, coolant and power steering reservoirs (although less is required for the X250 than the X290). Much of this seems necessary to give sufficient clearance to remove the timing belt cover upwards and out of the engine bay and to access the upper engine mounting. Particularly on versions fitted with air conditioning, there is insufficient clearance between the engine and chassis to remove the crankshaft pulley from the crankshaft, because the pulley is deeper than the non-aircon version to accommodate the two separate ancillary drive belts. The original instructions required the engine to be supported from below whilst the upper engine mounting was removed, and the engine lowered sufficiently to allow the pulley to be removed. But Fiat now indicate that if aircon is fitted, instead of having to lower the engine, by removing the air conditioning compressor from its mounting the engine can be levered sideways using a bar between the compressor mounting plate and the chassis, giving sufficient clearance to drop the pulley. They also suggest that the refrigerant pipes to the compressor should be disconnected and the system refilled on re-assembly, but I found it only necessary to disconnect the wiring connector and suspend the compressor from above without having to touch the refrigerant pipes. The engine only has to be moved a matter of 2 - 3 mm at most to remove the pulley, easily achieved within the movement available at the flexible engine mounting, so no longer any requirement to remove it. And once that has been done, by unbolting the aircon compressor carrier, the timing cover can be removed from below relatively easily, making most of the front end and reservoir removal within the engine bay completely unnecessary. I completed the job on axle stands, after removing the front offside wheel, engine undertray and wheelarch liner, the offside headlight and the windscreen washer reservoir (the latter probably not required as it happens). There is some more minor dismantling required above the engine to fit the camshaft locking pins, which takes but a few minutes to achieve. In all, the job was pretty straightforward with the right tools, and would be even easier with the van on a lift. The most difficult parts are sliding the plastic timing cover in and out between the engine and chassis, and deflecting the ancillary drive belt tensioner pulley sufficiently to refit the alternator belt, where it initially seems that three hands are required, but I managed it by holding the pulley back with a ratchet strap looped through the other end of a ring spanner and tied around the lower suspension arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS20 Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 Just to add that my quote for 2005 Peugeot 2.2hdi was £426.68 for the cambelt. Which then started me thinking about the price and searched online and found this on another forum. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for your recent enquiry made via the Peugeot Contact Centre. Registration number: ******** Chassis (VIN) number: ************* In regards to our conversation on 13/08/2019 at approximately 13:15pm, the recommended change for your timing / cambelt is: Normal driving conditions: 72000 miles or 10 years Arduous driving conditions: 60000 miles or 5 years If there is anything else we can help you with, please do not hesitate in contacting us. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My MH is driven mostly on A roads and motorways like most others. (Normal driving) Amazon and other delivery drivers I would say were 'Arduous'. Then I thought about previous cars I owned in the past 45 years and I have only recently kept to the cambelt schedule due to the fact that my cars nowadays are relatively new. I can only recall one friends cambelt snapping 30 + years ago on a MK11 Cortina, and I know of a 2004 Ford Fiesta that went from 27,000 miles to 118,000 miles on same cambelt with no oil change and was only scrapped due to MOT failure. My sons Renault Clio 2003 which is driven 2 days a month 35,000 miles which he says is only kept for convenient transport when needed and has only had tyres and bulbs replaced in the 9 years he has owned it. My point is how reliable are cambelts, and are they more reliable than stated in the service manual, thinking back how many of you have been affected by snapped belts ? Are manufacturers protecting our vehicles or are they creating work for their garages by promoting unnecessary cambelt changes. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 BS20 - 2021-04-13 1:46 PM My MH is driven mostly on A roads and motorways like most others. (Normal driving) Amazon and other delivery drivers I would say were 'Arduous'. Not necessarily, their vehicles are in constant use covering relatively high mileages, although constant stop/start local delivery driving is a more severe usage pattern. Belts can deteriorate from age and lack of regular use, as well as high mileages. Iveco are a joint manufacturer of the engines used in Ducatos, and they consider severe usage patterns to include driving less than 12,500 miles per annum. I can only recall one friends cambelt snapping 30 + years ago on a MK11 Cortina, and I know of a 2004 Ford Fiesta that went from 27,000 miles to 118,000 miles on same cambelt with no oil change and was only scrapped due to MOT failure. My sons Renault Clio 2003 which is driven 2 days a month 35,000 miles which he says is only kept for convenient transport when needed and has only had tyres and bulbs replaced in the 9 years he has owned it. My point is how reliable are cambelts, and are they more reliable than stated in the service manual, thinking back how many of you have been affected by snapped belts ? Are manufacturers protecting our vehicles or are they creating work for their garages by promoting unnecessary cambelt changes. Just a thought. Manufacturers base their maintenance advice and schedules on a likelihood of preventing any failures, although a small number are always going to be inevitable. If they based the requirement to change on only 50% of belts surviving for the period suggested, you would probably quite rightly complain. The belt in your engine stands a relatively good chance of surviving for longer than the change interval, just as you stand a good chance of not suffering a fatal blood clot after receiving an Astrazenica vaccination. But how much longer is it going to last? How long is a piece of string? How easy is it to determine the actual condition of the belt and its pulleys without so much dismantling that it would be foolish not to change it anyway? So the question if you choose to ignore the service requirements is how lucky you feel? My car had, until recently, a timing belt change interval of 8 years or 140,000 miles. I have not heard of any failures on that engine, in the same way that you can only recall one cambelt snapping based on a relatively small sample of friends and relatives vehicles. But the manufacturer has recently reduced the interval to 5 years or 90,000 miles based on the investigation of a small but nevertheless significant number of failures experienced in the fleet market and particularly emergency services vehicles. Similarly, now I am retired I hardly ever hear of cars being stolen, or of people being killed or seriously injured in traffic accidents in my local area. But I've no reason to believe that the numbers of each that I was aware of on a daily and weekly basis when I was working have decreased to any extent, certainly not the to level that I could now perceive to be true based on the fact that I no longer have that information being put in front of me. But deterioration of the belt is only one possible cause of its failure. Just as common if not more so is failure due to deterioration of the pulleys it rotates on, or breakage of ancillary drive belts that can jam between the timing belt and pulleys as they fly apart, causing the timing belt to snap or jump the pulley with disastrous results. Pulley bearings can be as much at risk from seizure due to lack of use as from wear due to excessive use. You can I suppose subscribe to the view that you won't bother with routine preventive maintenance and just choose to pay for repairs when or if the worst was to happen, but in my experience the worst invariably seems to also happen at the most inconvenient time, so I've always chosen to believe that prevention is better than the cure ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayc Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 In my experience regular servicing is unlikely to save you if a belt or tensioner has decided its time is up. I had an Mondeo 2ltr company car in which I did 75,000 miles in a couple of years. It was being serviced every few months or so but the timing belt tensioner shattered at about 2 years causing considerable damage to the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laimeduck Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 My local garage who does all my vehicles has just quoted me £307 max .... for my 2004, 2.8 JTD Ducato, belt and tensioners, may be less if it is done in under 4 hrs. Having it done start of May so I'll have to tax the Benimar to get it to the garage. Still, we have 2 small sites for 2 weeks in Cornwall mid June, so I'm happy. It is well overdue, last time it cost £278, so I'm happy again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinM50 Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 Laime, if you book an MoT at the time you're having the engine work done, you don't need to tax it as long as the MoT is prebooked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.