alalalal Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 Hi. I have the above and my leisure batteries have been playing up. Despite charging the unit via mains for 2 days before travelling, and only using lights and TV (3ah) for 1 hour, TV started shutting off. I have looked through manual for charger Carila lg 616 ds/iu, and it claims to charge From 60-160Ah. It also charges the starter battery once the leisure is full. Now, I have 2 leisure batteries at 110 Ah each, in parallel, and the starter at 95Ah, giving 315Ah for the charger to work on. I also have trickle charge via solar. I am assuming that the charger is not sufficient to provide charge necessary. I bought this vehicle second hand so don't know its history. Given that I have problems on 12v, and the the starter is 95 Ah, that gives me 65 Ah for a leisure battery, which can't be right. So, do I change the charger or have got something wrong? I would be very appreciative of some comments/help/advice. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 It sounds more like your leisure batteries are past there sell be date! Do you know how old they are or even what make and type they are? Charge them for at least 24 hours then disconnect all chargers (including the solar) and allow to stand for an hour then measure the voltage. Wait 24 hours and repeat. If the voltage is falling then they are toast. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 Alex’s Knaus motorhome is 2007-vintage https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Knaus-Wing-Mirror-/52863/ and it won’t have been fitted as standard with 2 x 110Ah leisure batteries. The battery charger is a CALIRA LG 616-DS/IU 16-Amps-output unit and there are operating instructions on the following link that confirm its 60Ah-160Ah design ‘capacity’. https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1136386/Calira-Lg-616-Ds-Iu.html?page=21#manual I agree with Keith that one (or both) of the leisure batteries is likely to be approaching the end of its useful life. There’s more Calira advice here http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/calira.php that states that allowance must be made for the starter battery. I expect a 95Ah starter battery + one 100Ah leisure battery would be OK for a Calira LG 616-DS/IU charger, but expecting the charger to adequately cope with the starter battery and 2 x 110Ah leisure batteries would be decidedly optimistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alalalal Posted September 23, 2021 Author Share Posted September 23, 2021 Thank you. The batteries are 2 x enduroline CA +, exv 110 Ah, age unknown. Having returned home now, I have removed leisure batteries and read voltage yesterday. This was around 13.8 for each. Today they are both reading around 13.2. There is nothing connected to them. Intend to read voltages for a few days to see, and then try to fully charge them, Halfords can't test them "as they are leisure". I'm "hoping" that is the batteries failing and not the charger, so that I can simply replace with one battery of the appropriate amperage. De I may still need to consider changing charger as I would like to extend off grid experience. Wonder why the leisure battery compartment has enough space for 2? Any ideas about any of the above gratefully received. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 alalalal - 2021-09-22 8:26 PM I have looked through manual for charger Carila lg 616 ds/iu, and it claims to charge From 60-160Ah. It also charges the starter battery once the leisure is full. Given that I have problems on 12v, and the the starter is 95 Ah, that gives me 65 Ah for a leisure battery, which can't be right. So, do I change the charger or have got something wrong? The limits put on charger of up to 160Ah is more to protect the charger from damage, it should be able to fully charge your battery bank, but doing this will eventually burn out the charger. I note Allen's comments on the website, but agree with Derek one decent sized leisure battery will probably be fine, but you size battery bank is asking for trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 As above, it seems your leisure batteries are probably kaput. It may be that your charger has been damaged, but I would expect that to manifest by the charger failing abruptly, rather than failing little by little. How large a battery bank you might need depends on the way you use your van (i.e. how much demand you place on the available 12V supply), at what times of year (for instance, running the heater/water heater will place additional demand on the battery) and how long you would expect to be able to stay off grid. Off grid implies to me that you would do all washing, showering, and washing up, in your van, so the water heater would be in daily, relatively frequent, use, so the demand on the leisure battery/ies would be significantly higher that if you were on a camp site without EHU, but using site facilities for those functions. You say you have TV, so the power consumed by that should be readily available. Lighting ditto. If you find the model of your space and water heater you should be able to find its power consumption. Ditto the Dometic fridge freezer, remembering that the latter will draw current continually to maintain its controls as well as to maintain cooling on gas (thermostat, ignition, etc.). You should then be able to approximate the amount of electrical power you consume in a typical 24 hour period, both in winter with the heating running, and when heating would not be required. If you multiply the result by the number of days you want off grid, you will have a figure in Ah for your consumption over that period. You should then take into account that running a lead acid battery below about 60% of its capacity will shorten the life of the battery, so you need to take your winter (i.e. with heating) consumption in Ah / 60 x 100 to arrive at the minimum size battery bank for your requirements (your consumption without heating will be kinder to the battery so the time off grid could be increased accordingly). So, if you now know the size of the battery bank you need for your intended use, you need to turn your attention to the charger (which, on the evidence, seems likely to be inadequate) and the van's alternator output (because when you start the van after your extended off grid stay it will be the alternator that will have to take up the initial re-charging load for both starter and leisure batteries. Failure to take account of this risks overloading the alternator. You also need to ensure that the solar panel/s are delivering a reasonable charge, and that the solar controller integrates sensibly with both mains and alternator charging. It can all be made to work to your advantage, but none of the items you are likely to need are cheap, and you'll need good advice on what will work with which to best advantage, to avoid a system in which the parts add up to a lot less than your expectations for the expenditure involved. The very least you seem to need is a new 90 -100Ah flooded lead acid leisure battery (possibly gel, if the charger has a gel setting, but not AGM), which should just about be within the capacity of the charger (not an informed opinion, others will know better! I'm just assuming this reflects what Knaus would have supplied as original equipment), and a review of whether the solar charger is appropriately installed vis a vis the Calira unit and the alternator to ensure their various charge rates are properly managed. If I'm honest, on a 14 year old van, I think I'd be inclined to install a single leisure battery, get the solar checked, and spend the money I might otherwise have spent on a larger battery bank, probably a new charger, possibly a new solar controller, and possibly a B to B, on staying on campsites with EHU and using their showers, washing up facilities, toilets, and getting out of the van to do other, more interesting, things. You'd also save on gas! But then, we do that anyway, so that's what I would say! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alalalal Posted September 23, 2021 Author Share Posted September 23, 2021 Thank you all for your very considered replies. I hadn't thought about the electrical controls for gas appliances - I have gas water heating, heating and fridge - silly me. Anyway, I'm still somewhat perplexed. I'm beginning to think the whole problem is above my pay grade. The batteries are still displaying 13.2 on volt meter. This seems to be healthy standing charges, according to some of the articles I've read.They have each lost approx 0.6 volts each since yesterday. I'm now beginning to think that the problem is between the batteries and the appliances connected. Is this feasible given the readings on the batteries? I would have thought that the readings on the batteries show more difference from each other? I have now placed both batteries on portable chargers and will check them tomorrow. If anyone can put me on the right track, I would be extremely grateful. I would be happy to buy a new battery but don't want to find that the problem is elsewhere. And, my auto electrician is on holiday. Regards, Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 Brian Kirby - 2021-09-23 3:15 PM If I'm honest, on a 14 year old van, I think I'd be inclined to install a single leisure battery, get the solar checked, and spend the money I might otherwise have spent on a larger battery bank, probably a new charger, possibly a new solar controller, and possibly a B to B, on staying on campsites with EHU and using their showers, washing up facilities, toilets, and getting out of the van to do other, more interesting, things. You'd also save on gas! But then, we do that anyway, so that's what I would say! :-D A 14 year old van forsooth :D ........ 31 year old Horace had some work done recently and I asked them to check out my Zig Unit (remember them? :D ) coz the illuminated switch was temperamental .... They said they couldn't fix it coz it was too old........It still works, I just listen for the hum of the charger and I can tell how low the charge on the leisure battery is by how warm it gets ;-) ...... Progress eh? (lol) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted September 24, 2021 Share Posted September 24, 2021 alalalal - 2021-09-23 7:35 PM ...The batteries are still displaying 13.2 on volt meter... Based on this advert https://www.tayna.co.uk/leisure-batteries/enduroline/exv110/ an Enduroline EXV110 battery is dual-purpose, having an engine-starting capability as well as being suitable for ‘leisure’ usage. Enduroline batteries were referred to here in this 2018 forum thread. https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Elecsol-Enduroline-Leisure-Batteries/49221/ I’m wary of the 13.2V value you’ve quoted as it is unusually high for a common-or-garden 12V battery that has no load being placed on it and (presumably) has been allowed to ‘rest’ for 24 hours or so. Even for a brand-new wet-acid 12V battery I’d expect the figure to not exceed 13.0V, which makes me wonder about the accuracy of your voltmeter. Although the voltage of even a good condition battery will drop over time, just leaving your battery to stand for several days and then taking a voltage reading won’t necessarily reveal its true health. I well recall an instance where a leisure-battery was removed from a motorhome, was fully charged, still showed a voltage of 12.8V after a couple of weeks, but ‘crashed’ as soon as it was put back in the motorhome and a small electrical load applied. This 2017 forum thread discussed how the capacity of a leisure-battery might be checked by applying a known-value electrical load to it. https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Testing-the-Ah-capacity-of-a-Leisure-Battery/46092/ Also, don’t overlook that your Calira unit is not a simple stand-alone battery charger (like (say) a CBE CB522) as it includes supplementary components that permit charging of a starter battery as well as the leisure batteries, plus the potential to dovetail with a Calira control-panel. So, if you were to replace the Calira unit, you’d need to take such factors into account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 24, 2021 Share Posted September 24, 2021 alalalal - 2021-09-23 7:35 PM Thank you all for your very considered replies. I hadn't thought about the electrical controls for gas appliances - I have gas water heating, heating and fridge - silly me. Anyway, I'm still somewhat perplexed. I'm beginning to think the whole problem is above my pay grade. The batteries are still displaying 13.2 on volt meter. This seems to be healthy standing charges, according to some of the articles I've read.They have each lost approx 0.6 volts each since yesterday. I'm now beginning to think that the problem is between the batteries and the appliances connected. Is this feasible given the readings on the batteries? I would have thought that the readings on the batteries show more difference from each other? I have now placed both batteries on portable chargers and will check them tomorrow. If anyone can put me on the right track, I would be extremely grateful. I would be happy to buy a new battery but don't want to find that the problem is elsewhere. And, my auto electrician is on holiday. Regards, Alex You need first to fully charge one battery. Say 24 hours on charge. Use a multimeter (Halfords etc. if you don't have one - not expensive) and take (and note) a reading of its voltage. Then allow it to stand for at least 4 hours and then take (and note) a further reading. Should show close to 12.7V. You then need to attach a known load to the battery, say a 12V light bulb. (Divide the wattage by 12 to get the load in Amps.) Leave the battery running the bulb for another 1 hour or so, take (and note) a further reading with the load connected. Disconnect the load, leave the battery 30 mins or so, and then take (and note) a further reading. Reconnect the load and repeat as above as often as possible, noting at each interval the voltage of the battery with the load connected and, after a 30 mins rest, disconnected. Keep notes of times and voltages recorded. Then repeat for the other battery. If the voltage on either battery falls below 12.12 volts stop the test as the battery is at that point discharged by 60%, beyond which damage is liable. The useful capacity of the batteries x 60% will indicate the how much you can safely use in Amp hours. The notes from your test (Load in Amps x time taken to reach 12.12V) will tell you the actual remaining capacity of the battery in Amp hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alalalal Posted September 27, 2021 Author Share Posted September 27, 2021 Thank you to Brian and Derek for tips and advice . I have been keeping the batteries on charge - I have two chargers. Borrowed a voltmeter from a neighbour following Derek's comments re accuracy of voltmeter. Did indeed get different results but not wildly different. Anyway, decided to invest in an inexpensive battery tester - costing not much more than voltmeter. I set it to out of car test, regular flooded and CCA with 800A - as set out in Tayna specs. Not sure if I should use CCA, as the tester has options of bci, CA, MCA, jis, din, IEC, en and sae standards. Results Battery 1 SOH 65%, 523 A SOC 98%, 14.12 V R 5.73 m ohms Replace. Battery 2 SOH 68%, 547A SOC 98%, 13.39V Replace. I would be grateful for any comments, particularly advice where I may have misunderstood the test procedure. Thanks once again. Regards, Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alalalal Posted September 27, 2021 Author Share Posted September 27, 2021 Results very similar to above for EN setting too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted September 27, 2021 Share Posted September 27, 2021 alalalal - 2021-09-27 3:01 PM Battery 1 Replace. Battery 2 Replace. I think that answers your question about what is your problem! And is basically what was predicted in the first couple of answers above. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 alalalal - 2021-09-27 3:01 PM ...Anyway, decided to invest in an inexpensive battery tester - costing not much more than voltmeter... If you want focused advice, you’ll need to provide details of the make and model of battery tester you purchased. This 2020 forum thread discussed battery testing and the importance of ensuring that the testing equipment and a battery’s specification are carefully matched up. https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Batteries-again-/56070/ Although your Enduroline batteries are not dedicated deep-cycle batteries and their engine-starting funtionality can be checked, I believe you’d be better carrying out a straightforward ‘under a known load’ discharge test of the type Brian Kirby has suggested rather than use a cheap tester that you don’’t understand. Or you could assume that (having entered into the tester an Enduroline battery's specification details taken from the Tayna advert) if the tester then signals that the battery should be replaced, you just follow that advice and replace it. The symptoms you mentioned in your original posting pointed to the Enduroline batteries being on their way out, so you might as well bite the bullet and start thinking about what you’ll replace them with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alalalal Posted September 28, 2021 Author Share Posted September 28, 2021 Thank you Derek. I suspected that the advice I was given about the batteries was probably correct. I had assembled some parts to check the load as per Brian's advice. I was thinking about using a dashboard cam with record facility so that I could get an indication of time running etc. Anyway, thought I'd get a "better" tester, as the results from the testers I had varied a little, and I suspected that following Brian's advice, I would still need to replace battery. So that is where I am. I have decided to "bite the bullet" and buy a single replacement - Exide G 80, Exide ET650, Yuasa L36 EFB, Bosch Powerframe L5, or Varta LFD650. I reckon I'll be ok with any one of them. Incidentally, a battery provider, today, recommended an AGM battery, Leoch Xtreme 1750. Most people with extensive battery/ motorhome knowledge advise against agms. So that is where we are. I won't be buying an AGM. For those of you who are interested, the tester I used was a Konnwei KW 208. Good reviews on the site I bought it from. I am not, however, endorsing it. It just seemed to do the job. Thank you to all for your advice and time. Regards, Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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